VECO Squaw kit update as of Sunday 2/10/2019

[Mike Griffin]

UPDATE:

Eric finished the final drawing of the Squaw and sent me a PDF of the plan to approve, which I did.  This is one of the nicest plans I have seen from Eric and he drew in detail, all three possible power systems.  Upright mounted glow, Inverted Glow and Electric and although I have great Veco 19 to put in this model, I am really having a hard time not going electric.

I approved the drawing tonight (Sunday) and sent back to Eric.  He will be cutting the prototype for me to test build either Monday or Tuesday and as soon as he does that, I will have a firm price to give everyone. 

I have set up a separate e mail address to communicate with everyone who wanted a kit and that address is:

griffinskits1@gmail.com

If you have not yet contacted me at that e mail, please do ASAP so we can have a channel on which to communicate. 

Once I have a price, I will post it in my Vendors Corner Section and/or send you an e mail from the yahoo e mail above.  I will also give you payment options by e mail and on my Vendors Corner Section (Griffins Model Service) as well.

Thank you all very much.

Mike

[Kevin Muckleroy]

This One?
YUUUUP, Sure Wood.

[Mike Griffin]

This One?
YUUUUP, Sure Wood.

That is the one Kevin.

Mike

[Guy B Jr]

Mike, what engine would she use today. Would an OS FP20 be too much? If so, maybe an FP15 or LA15??

[Mike Griffin]

Guy I think a .15, .19 or a .20 would be fine.  If we go through with the kit, I have a Veco .19 I am going to use on it.   

Mike

[ericrule]

Mike:

The Squaw would fly great with the RSM 15 electric power system. As we discussed we would draw up the plans so either glow or electric power could be used and put the necessary parts in the kit assuming we go ahead with the project.

[Mike Griffin]

Good point Eric.  I have had several people ask about electric as well.

Mike

[richardhfcl]

Mike,

     Have you established a price for the kit?

     Thanks,

     Dick

[FLOYD CARTER]

My experience with kits by RSM is that all of the wood is usable.  No need to toss out some pieces due to warps, excess weight, etc.  That alone makes these kits more economical.  The extra care taken with producing premium kits necessarily makes them a bit more expensive, but the results are worth it.

[Steve Dwyer]

Mike,

I'm curious about the interest in the Squaw and not the Chief which is somewhat bigger? I recently acquired a Chief kit from an individual that wanted to build it but never was able. I promised to build it, but will not use the kit materials, I've already bought the wood, I plan to start next week. I believe both kits are OTS legal. There's also the Joe Wagner Chief design that inverts the motor and goes to a canopy instead of two open cockpits and looks more like the Squaw. Wonder also if Eric will eliminate the Pollywog airfoil?

Steve

[Mike Griffin]

To answer Dick's question above about pricing a kit and for all who have that question as well:

When introducing the possibility of a new laser cut kit for the first time, it is very hard to give an exact price on the kit due to several factors.  First, a CAD file has to be drawn and it is very hard to estimate the cost of producing the CAD file because you do not know how much time it is going to take to draw it and that price is determined by the time it takes. 

Secondly, once the CAD is fed into the laser cutter, you don't know how much time it is going to take to cut all the parts and laser time is charged by the minute.  Until all the parts are cut, there is no way to tell how minutes it will take. 

Thirdly, I do not know how much material it will take at this point until the CAD is drawn on the appropriate size sheets so I cannot estimate material costs at this point either.

All of this has to be considered and added in to the process of producing a new kit and really until the prototype is cut and built to make sure all errors are found and compensated for, pricing the kit in advance is risky.

I can say this however, if you will look at the current pricing on kits from RSM or other manufacturers that are about the same size as the Squaw, that will give you a good indication of what you would be paying for this kit or at least get you in the ballpark. 

I will announce a price as soon as it is possible.

I don't know if this helps or not but this is the process.

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

Mike,

I'm curious about the interest in the Squaw and not the Chief which is somewhat bigger? I recently acquired a Chief kit from an individual that wanted to build it but never was able. I promised to build it, but will not use the kit materials, I've already bought the wood, I plan to start next week. I believe both kits are OTS legal. There's also the Joe Wagner Chief design that inverts the motor and goes to a canopy instead of two open cockpits and looks more like the Squaw. Wonder also if Eric will eliminate the Pollywog airfoil?

Steve

Steve, I have not had a chance to discuss this with Eric yet but that will be talked about once we determine if there is enough general interest and commitment to enough kits to make it worthwhile to do the project.  I will try to get you an answer on that as soon as possible.

Mike

[Steve Dwyer]

Thanks Mike, I'll be interested in what Eric's response is, hopefully the Chief is a suitable model for OTS flying.

After buying the materials including the hardware that Eric supplies and even the roundel decals for authenticity I ordered from Sig I often wonder how these kit guys can make enough to really justify the offering.

Steve

[john e. holliday]

Its called buying materials in bulk.   Every kit of Eric's and Mike's production have been beyond great.   I could never cut a kit as accurate as they do.  The kits are well worth the price.

I would order a Squaw kit if I didn't have so many.   Just passed up a deal on a brand new never ran Veco .19 at the swap meet today.  Did grab a $10.00 Fox .36 throttle valve and a couple of spinners for the TeeDee/Medallion engines I have.

[Kevin Muckleroy]

Mike:

The Squaw would fly great with the RSM 15 electric power system. As we discussed we would draw up the plans so either glow or electric power could be used and put the necessary parts in the kit assuming we go ahead with the project.

Or RSM 25 EPS with the new Protek 3s 4100mah LiHV Battery
43.2x93x24.3mm dimensions

[Steve Dwyer]

I'm going to jump ahead here if you'll allow. The Squaw and the Chief both have longer in board wings, the Squaw 1" and the chief 2", granted it's all about different speeds over each wing and varied lift, is this essential to keep or build symmetrical?
Secondly looking at the Joe Walker Super Chief plan which is identical dimensionally to the Veco Chief he included built up control surfaces similar to Nobler, this included the flaps, elevator, rudder and horizontal and vertical stabs. Is there much benefit in weight or performance by building everything up?  According to the Wagner notes on the drawing Aldridge was a participating contributor to designing the Super Chief just before he designed his Nobler. It seems it was around the early 50's everyone was changing to built up surfaces.
Lastly I really like silked wings, it would seem a bit difficult to stretch silk over the control areas, what's been the trend when preferring silk on the wings?

Thanks,

Steve

[Mike Griffin]

OK, just had about an hour conversation with Eric about kitting the VECO Squaw.  We are going forward with producing the kit.  I wanted to go ahead and answer some anticipated questions that might help.

 

The kit will include the parts to convert the plane to electric power.

If you use glow, you will be able to mount the engine upright or inverted, whatever your heart desires.

PLease click on this link to sign up for a kit.  I will take you to my Vendors Corner Site, GRIFFIN'S MODEL SERVICE, where you can post your information for where to send the kit when they are ready,

Link:  https://stunthanger.com/smf/griffin's-model-service/sign-up-here-for-a-veco-squaw-kit/



If you use glow, anything from a 15 to a 25 will work.  I personally plan on using a VECO 19 I have
I can also furnish the complete BLack Tiger plug and play electric system that RSM created.

This will be a FULL kit with hardware and a full size plan. 

Pricing: Comparable to any kit on the market that is comparable in size and type.  It will be in that price range. 

NOTE:  There are some significant changes coming in the near future on balsa.  Anticipate shortages and price increases.  This is coming from very reliable wholesale distributors. 

[Mike Griffin]

I'm going to jump ahead here if you'll allow. The Squaw and the Chief both have longer in board wings, the Squaw 1" and the chief 2", granted it's all about different speeds over each wing and varied lift, is this essential to keep or build symmetrical?
Secondly looking at the Joe Walker Super Chief plan which is identical dimensionally to the Veco Chief he included built up control surfaces similar to Nobler, this included the flaps, elevator, rudder and horizontal and vertical stabs. Is there much benefit in weight or performance by building everything up?  According to the Wagner notes on the drawing Aldridge was a participating contributor to designing the Super Chief just before he designed his Nobler. It seems it was around the early 50's everyone was changing to built up surfaces.
Lastly I really like silked wings, it would seem a bit difficult to stretch silk over the control areas, what's been the trend when preferring silk on the wings?

Thanks,\


Hi Steve,

I am not trying to avoid your questions but I am trying to keep this thread on topic for information on the Squaw kit.  There are probably better informed people on this forum to answer your questions about the modifications you are asking about to the original design of the Chief so maybe someone else who sees this might be able to answer those questions in regard to how it may or may not improve the flying characteristics of the Chief.   I can tell you this, that any change to the design that is "externally noticeable" may make the model ineligible for competition in OTS or whatever category you enter it in. 

Thank you
Mike
If anyone who reads this thread can help you with those answers, hopefully they will private message you with the information you need.

Steve

[Mike Griffin]

I have set up a special e mail address to correspond and give updates to everyone who is ordering a kit.

The e mail address is:  Griffinskits@yahoo.com.

I will use this e mail address to keep you updated on the progress of the kit.  You can send me a test e mail from your address and we will then have a communication link to discuss the progress on the kit.

Thank yo

Mike

[Brett Buck]

I'm going to jump ahead here if you'll allow. The Squaw and the Chief both have longer in board wings, the Squaw 1" and the chief 2", granted it's all about different speeds over each wing and varied lift, is this essential to keep or build symmetrical?

   While it is on the excessive side, you certainly want to build them as they come, and it won't cause problems. I am not sure why you would want to make it symmetrical, that sort of went out in the 80's.

   The right value for these size airplanes is around 1/2", I use 3/4-1" on larger airplanes. I can see no reason to try to make them "symmetrical" when that actually makes them "asymmetrical" and slides the CP to the right unnecessarily.

     Brett

[Mike Griffin]

   While it is on the excessive side, you certainly want to build them as they come, and it won't cause problems. I am not sure why you would want to make it symmetrical, that sort of went out in the 80's.

   The right value for these size airplanes is around 1/2", I use 3/4-1" on larger airplanes. I can see no reason to try to make them "symmetrical" when that actually makes them "asymmetrical" and slides the CP to the right unnecessarily.

     Brett

Thank you for the input Brett, I appreciate it. 

Mike

[Terrence Durrill]

Okay, I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but the following story from an autobiography that I'm writing just seems to fit here. It is about a Veco Squaw...

I would like to relate a couple of modeling oriented stories about Dad. The first of these he didn’t know about until quite recently.
   Around the time I was about 10 years old, I had learned to fly C/L pretty well, and considered myself pretty hot stuff among the neighborhood’s modelers. My Dad had a prized Veco Squaw that he loved to fly on weekends, and it hung proudly on the garage wall. There was an unspoken understanding that I was not to even touch this particular model.
   One summer vacation day I was particularly bored, and with some prodding from one of my buddies, I took the Squaw down from its peg and headed for the local ball field. I was sure that I could fly it carefully a few times and then clean it up and re-hang it long before Dad got home from work. He’d never be any the wiser . . .
   I ran out the lines and began fueling the gleaming yellow and green ship. The Madewell .49 blasted to life with only a flip or two (it was a glow conversion), and I was off and running to the handle. I signaled my helper -- who I’d sworn to secrecy -- to launch the ship and then watched in absolute horror as the model took off and climbed straight up, accepting no control inputs at all. In my hurry to get flying, I forgot to attach the lines to the model! My very short life passed before my much-too-young-to-die eyes.
   I watched Dad’s pride and joy get smaller and smaller as it climbed higher and higher. This was bad - very bad. But, just then, it got much worse. The ship nosed over at about 500-foot altitude and came screaming down. From my vantage point it looked inevitable that it would impact on the busy road adjacent to the ball field. Bending an Edsel with a Squaw would be grounds for termination for sure. Heck, just bending the Squaw would be more than enough to insure that I’d eat standing up for a year!
   Time has this neat thing that it does to your mind when something really devastating is about to happen. As if to truly let you savor your agony, it slows way down to allow a frame-by-frame examination of the impending catastrophe. I watched the Squaw closing in on the asphalt. It seemed to take minutes. I had plenty of time to ponder the many things that would happen to me later that evening, and even to weigh the relative merits of each type of punishment that I would soon be experiencing. Then, just before impact, the Squaw leveled out and headed towards a weed bed at the edge of the field. It hit at a pretty good rate of speed, but the weeds cushioned the crash. I ran to the ship still expecting the worst, but picked it up to find only a broken prop! Really. The ship had freeflighted for probably 30 seconds and came to rest at the edge of the road with just a busted Top Flite 10 X 6. I realized that I probably wasn’t going to die after all!
   I replaced the prop with one that had approximately the same grain color, painstakingly wiped the burnt castor from ship, and ever so carefully re-hung it on the garage wall. I then lived in fear for the next week that some passing motorist had watched the whole thing and would report the affair to my father. Slowly I began to realize that I had gotten away with a big one. I finally told him this story only a few years ago. Fortunately, he was amused. - Bob Hunt

                     Great story Bob.  Thanks for sharing.  There was a certain kind of magic associated with our C/L adventures in the middle of the last century (50's - 60's).  You certainly did cash in big time on the magic of that era in getting that Veco Squaw back in one piece.  As a matter of fact, I always wanted to build a Squaw, but regret that I never obtained a kit to do so.  ......        

[Paul Wescott]

OK, just had about an hour conversation with Eric about kitting the VECO Squaw.  We are going forward with producing the kit.  I wanted to go ahead and answer some anticipated questions that might help.

This will be a FULL kit with hardware and a full size plan. 

Pricing: Comparable to any kit on the market that is comparable in size and type.  It will be in that price range. 

Sig Akromaster: $30 from Sig
Sig Twister: $60 from Sig

If it comes in around $60 I will definitely take one.
If it comes in closer to $30 I will most likely take 2 or 3.
If it comes in higher than $60, such as $80 for the .061 Tercel probably not.
If it comes in closer to the bulk of the $140 kits then definitely NOT.
There was a long complicated explanation of why a firm price can’t be given: How long it takes to CAD up the plan, plus how long it takes to laser out the parts, plus how many sheets of wood it takes to feed into the laser...
I’m not buying that.  The principals involved in this project ALL have significant experience CAD-ing, Lasering, and laying out parts, and all the other variables.  A “ballpark” price should be available.  It has already been stated that a production run WILL happen.  That didn’t happen without figuring out an estimated retail price, even if someone just said “well it’s about the same size and complexity as a 1972 Flapwhapper, and I’m way better with CAD now, so let’s use that price for now”.  So just say the price is expected to be... and name the estimated price.  It has also been said “it will be in that price range” (see quote above) so I expect it to be between Akromaster and Twister, or $30 & $60.  Otherwise please tell me what currently selling models to compare it to?

Paul W.
.

[Bill Morell]

LOL! This is not a profile and it comes with hardware. Since you seem to know so much about putting out a kit and the cost maybe you should be doing it?

[Steve Dwyer]

Ty, You're way better versed than I am on the history dating back to the orgin of the Chief. I have the Joe Wagner drawing and the Veco drawing. The earlier Wagner drawing shows built up control surfaces while the later dated Veco drawing has solid surfaces. I suspect Veco went back to the original design as on your drawing for sake of simplicity in producing a kit. I'm considering going with the built up surfaces while retaining the twin open cockpits as shown on the Veco kit box. Anyway I'd love to have a copy of the 1949 drawing, if you can make a copy for me I'd pay you for it. Will hopefully start the wing this weekend.

Thanks,

Steve

[Lyle Spiegel]

What are trade offs between polwog vs non polywog? Flying performance , ease of building & covering? Polywog more tricky to cover? Need to attach covering to each rib?

[Mike Griffin]

Lyle I understood that the reason the polywog rib came into being was simply because manufacturers could get more ribs on a sheet of balsa by putting the polywog shape in the rib.  As far as the aerodynamics of how a polywog rib would compare in flight to the newer thicker airfoils, my guess would be the non polywog wings would perform much better.  The Ringmaster immediately comes to mind and how it performs in the air as compared to the newer non concave shaped ribs .  There are folks on here who should know much better than I how and why this happens.

Back when I was building Ringmasters for folks, I used Ultracote to cover the wings with and I attached the covering at the very front of the leading edge and the edge of the trailing edge and then shrunk the covering.  I did not iron the covering to the ribs.

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

OK, before the thread drifts to far, just wanted to clarify a couple of things.

The ribs will NOT be Polywog.  Look at the plan by Joe Wagner and you will see the ribs that will be in the kit.

The kit will contain all the parts to build it for glow or electric.

It is a FULL kit.

Eric Rule is making quick progress on the CAD, So should have a prototype kit soon and that will mean I will have a price for the kit as soon as he cuts the kit.

Thank you,

Mike
I have set up a special email to correspond with everyone who has ordered a kit or wants to order a kit.  The e mail is: griffinskits@yahoo.com
please contact me using that e mail if you will.

[Steve Dwyer]

"What are trade offs between polwog vs non polywog? Flying performance , ease of building & covering? Polywog more tricky to cover? Need to attach covering to each rib?"

Lyle,

Flying performance of course is important to me but it wasn't my primary concern regarding the "pollywog rib".  I had come across a photo of someone's Chief showing the irregularity and hit and miss of the covering over the course of ribs, it didn't look very pleasing. Covering over the PW rib vs the full rib would be essentially the same with little difference in effort or technique. The only difference is the taught fabric or plastic would either be in contact or not with each rib.

Steve

[Mike Griffin]

Mike,

I'm curious about the interest in the Squaw and not the Chief which is somewhat bigger? I recently acquired a Chief kit from an individual that wanted to build it but never was able. I promised to build it, but will not use the kit materials, I've already bought the wood, I plan to start next week. I believe both kits are OTS legal. There's also the Joe Wagner Chief design that inverts the motor and goes to a canopy instead of two open cockpits and looks more like the Squaw. Wonder also if Eric will eliminate the Pollywog airfoil?

Steve

Steve, this kit will not be with polywog ribs. 

Mike

[Guy B Jr]

What is the difference between the Squaw and the Warrior?

[Dave Hull]

"What is the difference between the Squaw and the Warrior?"

Squaw. Kit number C-4 ($5.95):

"Little sister to the Chief. Full span flaps for real performance. Wing span 38". Wing area 346 sq in.  Recommended engine Veco .29"

Warrior. Kit number C-2 ($5.50):

"Realistic, rugged, reliable stunter with flaps. Easy to build and fly. Wing span 36". Wing area 325 sq. in.  Recommended engine Veco .19"

Photo shows upright engine on the Warrior, inverted on the Squaw. Both shown with open cockpits.

Dave

[Mike Griffin]

See initial post for update

[Mike Griffin]

Please see Griffin's Model Service in Vendors Corner for details and Pricing of the Squaw kit.

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

Here is the finished plan for the Squaw