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Author Topic: Kit and Motor questions  (Read 6865 times)

Offline Tom Strom

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Kit and Motor questions
« on: May 05, 2011, 10:29:29 PM »
I have a Brodak Pathfinder KIT, not ARF, and I heard the fuse is a little weak?  How do I make it a little stronger?  Or is it really a problem?  I have an OS 45 F, that I was thinking of mounting on it.   Good choice, or is there a better match?  I am recovering from a shoulder injury, so thought I would sit and build this kit, since I cant' fly or fish.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.  The motor has no venturi or muffler.  Any suggestions on getting both?  It is the OS 45F ringed motor.   Thanks in advance for the help.

Tom

Offline Michael Massey

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2011, 10:40:23 PM »
I built the same kit Pathfinder and put an OS .46 on it.  Did not do anything to the fuse.  Flys great.  You'll like it.
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Offline Chucky

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2011, 03:07:25 AM »
Can't comment on the airplane, but have never ever read anything negative about it.  All reports I've seen say it's a great flier with no structural issues.  The 45 F, however, from what I can find on the web is a late 70's to early 80's R/C engine that was offered in both ringed and ABC versions.  It appears to be a high rpm, ball bearing motor that is likely to be too heavy for the model design and will probably not deliver a stunt-friendly run.  You can probably get hooked up with venturi, NVA, and muffler for it, but why put money into an engine that is likely to be difficult to control?  Unless you're on a restricted budget for this buiild, just get a 46 LA-S.  I own several of them and they're dead easy to set up for sport/stunt use.  http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/WTI0095P?FVSEARCH=46+LA-S&search=Go
Chuck Winget

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2011, 04:08:06 AM »
Yep. LA-46. Structural weaknesses are often part and parcel with ARF profiles that use hollow fueses around the motor mounts. The traditional 1/2"  profile bodies are stronger and less prone to engine vibration issues. No doubt your bird uses the 1/2" balsa stick. Check the plywood doublers. If they are not 1/8" five ply, might be useful to cut new ones using the more rigid material. Fiberglassing the wing fues joint in the front also helps to dampen bad engine vibes. The OS45 might be difficult to tame, since it is probably timed to run at a comparatively high rpm, which could mean rocket ship speeds from your capable stunter. Not good. Engines like that can be adopted to stunt. But it's a task best left to the experienced and patient.

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2011, 05:09:50 AM »
You shouldn't have any problems with the fuse but if want peace of mind you can glass the fuse with .5 oz. fiberglass.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2011, 05:58:23 AM »


Read the initial post again.  This is a kit.  The engie in question should work for sport flying if he puts a small venturi in it.  I think Tower has venturis that will fit or get a hold of Jim Lee at Lee's Machine Shop and he can give you some advice.  He is in  the Vendors Corner on here.  Also props can make a difference in how engines work also.  Remember to post pics of the build.   H^^
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Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2011, 07:03:17 AM »
Gotta agree with the others on this one. Getting back into this hobby is difficult enough. Having to do it with an engine that is not Ukie friendly will add an element of frustration that could possilby be a deal-breaker. An LA-46 or and Enya from Randy (a 40SS would be my suggestion) would be a better way to go. As far as the rear fuse being a little weak, well, compared to some it may be, but it is a great flying design, not to worry. 8)
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Offline Pat Johnston

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2011, 07:15:29 AM »
Tom,
I am working with Tony Huber to set up an LA46 for his Brodak P-40.  This engine is light and powerful and mostly gives beautiful stunt runs.  You likely do not need any more nose weight with the 45 you are proposing.  I would highly recommend getting the LA46 and I can work you through the very easy setup.  Are you going to the Regionals?  It would be great to see you.  I'll be there Thursday noon.
Pat Johnston
Skunk Works

Offline Tom Strom

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2011, 08:40:46 AM »
Thanks to all that have replied.  I like this forum, peple answer the questions asked.  Hi Pat!!  I do not know if I will be going to the Regionals or not.  I originally was going to fly some Hi-perf. 1/2a combat.  However, I injured my flying shoulder on a call at work.  (maybe it is time to retire from the fire service.  I am 59 now,LOL).  I am thinking of going just to watch and bug people.  We will see.  Back to the Pathfinder.  I have a large selection of motors already.  I can go from 35 FP to Tiger 60.  I have several 46LA motors, just need to convert them to venturi from carb.  So I will talk to you about set-up for them.  Thanks for the help offer.  Say hi to that lovely bride of yours, and maybe I will see you in a couple weeks. 

Tom

Offline Allen Brickhaus

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2011, 08:43:21 AM »
I also agree with a stunt tuned OS 46 LA.

Allen Brickhaus

Offline Pat Johnston

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2011, 09:38:41 AM »
Tom,
Always good to listen to Allan.  Good guy.
I'll be bringing parts to the Regionals.  Bring a 46 and we can play with it.
Pat

Offline WhittleN

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2011, 10:08:21 AM »
Tom
Good to hear you’re looking at Stunt.  That racing stuff is just too fast.  I built a Gordan Delaney designed Pathfinder - of course I modified it a little to make it look “non–jet like”.  I did put a couple of CF (.030") strips into the fuselage and that really stiffened up the rear of the fuse.  Gordan lives down the street from me so we fly together all the time.  He has a .15 powered twin Pathfinder that must be the best flying profile of all time.
Hope to see you at the NWR
Norm Whittle

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2011, 10:21:27 AM »
Tom!

It good to see you here. Good luck with the Pathfinder. You already have the best advice so I won't add to it except to say I hope to see you at the Regionals.
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2011, 10:44:21 AM »
John Holliday. Were my sentences unclear? I thought I did distinguish between the kit and the ARF.

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2011, 11:09:27 AM »
John Holliday. Were my sentences unclear? I thought I did distinguish between the kit and the ARF.

Not having operated one yet, I'm just wondering what constitutes a stunt tuned .46 LA?  What the issues are with it and what adjustments need to be made to make it a good stunt engine?

Thanks

Ted

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2011, 12:07:45 PM »
Not having operated one yet, I'm just wondering what constitutes a stunt tuned .46 LA?  What the issues are with it and what adjustments need to be made to make it a good stunt engine?


  I am curious about that one, too, because Uncle Jimby's worked like a charm straight out of the box. One reason seems to be that there are a lot of different versions of it, all marked the same.

    All the reworked versions I have seen were incredibly gutless, like, less-than-a-Fox-35 gutless. In fact I think you were present at the NWR where we were trying to work on a Pathfinder profile with a reworked 46LA that could barely get over the top in a wingover. And I was looking around for a stock Fox and a can of 25%.

    Brett

Offline Pat Johnston

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2011, 12:28:59 PM »
Brett, Ted,
The top secret trick on setting up the LA46 is to simply install a smaller venturi, and a metal backplate.  We are turning the 12 1/4 X 3 3/4 APC and wood clones of that prop in the 9500-9800 RPM range at 4.8 to 5.0 second lap times, depending on line length.  Swinging 12" of prop at good lap times indicates a lot of poop.  We are happy with the LA46.  I've dropped venturi size, leaned the engine a bit, and have experienced under 3 ounce of fuel runs for the pattern.  Sweet engine.
I suspect that anyone who has detuned the porting has dropped the power potential down significantly.  In my opinion not a good plan.
Pat Johnston
KISS in Idaho
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2011, 12:32:07 PM »
Brett,

Mostly it has to do with setting it up with the correct venturi and prop. Some of the RC versions appear to be ported slightly differently from the CL versions (my guess). For those (the RC jobs that are apparently somewhat different) you need to go with a smaller venturi or they tend to be hard to get along with. The CL versions, for the most part, can take a slightly bigger venturi without running away. I have two of them. One is an original CL version and ran pretty well right out of the box. The other is one I picked up that I believe was an RC version. I had to go down to a very small venturi before the run stabilized. Weirdly, both seem to produce about the same power with wildly different setups.
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Offline Tom Strom

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2011, 12:41:29 PM »
Thanks Randy and Norm.  Good to hear from you Norm.  Have not seen you in a while.  I have been following your electric pursuits with great interest.  Now, if you can just make the smell of a nitro burner come from the electrics, I would probably try it.  I have always enjoyed stunt and combat.  I just did not get to do much stunt.  The racing stuff is all composite now, and not much actual building.  I miss working with real wood.  Love to actually build things.  I like your suggestion about the carbon.  I will do that, and probably cover it with the carbon mat, then silkspan.  Really missed the smell of dope in the morning.  I have the R/C versions of the LA 46. What do I look for to make sure it is OK?  Or should I just buy the C/L version?  Or better yet, just let Pat work on it.  I will try to post pictures of the build as I go.  That way you can all holler at me for doing things my way.  Should be fun, and seriously all help will be appreciated. 

Tom 

   

Offline Tom Strom

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2011, 12:45:00 PM »
One thing I do need help on is finding those neat looking Morris control systems.  I remember seeing the bellcrank assembly somewhere, with the carbon pushrods and ball link connectors.  So, where do I find them? 

Tom

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2011, 12:52:00 PM »
Thanks Randy and Norm.  Good to hear from you Norm.  Have not seen you in a while.  I have been following your electric pursuits with great interest.  Now, if you can just make the smell of a nitro burner come from the electrics, I would probably try it.  I have always enjoyed stunt and combat.  I just did not get to do much stunt.  The racing stuff is all composite now, and not much actual building.  I miss working with real wood.  Love to actually build things.  I like your suggestion about the carbon.  I will do that, and probably cover it with the carbon mat, then silkspan.  Really missed the smell of dope in the morning.  I have the R/C versions of the LA 46. What do I look for to make sure it is OK?  Or should I just buy the C/L version?  Or better yet, just let Pat work on it.  I will try to post pictures of the build as I go.  That way you can all holler at me for doing things my way.  Should be fun, and seriously all help will be appreciated.  

Tom  

  
Hi Tom, all I did to mine was seal the back plate with silicone bought a OS 25 venturi and drilled it out with a 7mm (275) drill bit used a OS nva and a 12X5 Zinger wood prop, I don't have allot of time on it but it seems to be rock solid.
Good Luck
Dwayne
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 01:47:26 PM by Dwayne Donnelly »

Offline Gene O'Keefe

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2011, 01:21:33 PM »
Tom...I buy my pushrods & ball links from " Control Line Central" ...advertised in the vendors corner on this forum.
Bullet proof set up - you can't go wrong using it.

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Offline Peter Ferguson

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2011, 01:37:00 PM »
Tom, give a shout when you are ready togo flying and I'll round up a few fellas to help (or hinder). We fly off of W Valley in Sumner just south of the RAMS fiels and should be flying at the Auburn Airport soon. Good to hear from you again.
Peter Ferguson
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Offline Tom Strom

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2011, 02:12:18 PM »
Sounds good Pete, Thanks.  Thank you to Gene also.  I will look them up and get some coming.

Tom

Offline Chucky

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2011, 02:13:05 PM »
Pat, thanks for disclosing the Skunk Works setup.  Have been running my 46 LA's with Shoup backplates, stock venturi, and 11x3 APC for some time now with usable results, but much heavier fuel consumption to keep lap times down (4 oz. to get comfortably through the pattern).  Also significantly higher rpms @ launch (12K) due to prop length, no doubt.  Have the APC 12.25 X 3.75 on hand and 25/20 FP venturis, which I believe you recommend, so will give your setup a whirl.  Thanks.
Chuck Winget

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2011, 06:39:37 PM »
Tom, have you tried circle hooks?  LL~ Steve
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In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline jim ivey

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2011, 02:15:23 AM »
I'm thinking my next scratch plane is gong to have a stringer fuse I doubt it will be lighter than that 550 sq, in @ 19.5 oz. Man that airplane flew good! about 90 mph nice squre corners you cold tell they were real square my son let it burn in a house fire it was supposed to be there. lost a near new johnson 35 in it.  :'(  :(  hmmm I hope I dont offend anyone. But I just saw a reference to detuning porting. that could only be done internally by changing the sizr and possibly the location of the intake and exhaust ports. now restricting the mixture does not detune the porting sorry. geoge aldrich was responsable for a lot this nonsence i see in these sites. he was always known by some of us as a bullshitter. I usta tease him about his eye color becauase he was a quart low. he didnt know squat about engines He never worked for us or any other manufacturer I  ever knew of. I saw gafs engine and knew right away how he had screwed it up! I told him you see rhose screws sticking into the exhaust port? ther are also 2 sticking into intake port. they were not there before.   He butchered it by cutting down the amount of mixture allowed into the cylinder and it also restricts  amount that can be exhausted. now that was restricting the porting and by doing so the engine never ran right after that. He asked if it could be fixed. I said maybe but I wouldn't touch it. even if asked. after the crap he's slung my F' him I was one of theoriginal 3 people that designed and built those engines from the orwicks. It was done 1955 and 19 56. sure we thought about putitng 6 long screws in em instead just 2, but no room, and it really wasn't necessary now was it? The other thing was it would have been an assembly nightmare stripped threads and warpage. But him and the other bser from texas wouldnt know they werent there!  My other favorite is the nutbag whose spraybars leak air through threads. Like ,scooze me ? If ya need to think about that one ya don't need to give anyone advise about engines ! jim ivey

Offline BYU

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2011, 07:32:51 AM »
Brett,

Mostly it has to do with setting it up with the correct venturi and prop. Some of the RC versions appear to be ported slightly differently from the CL versions (my guess). For those (the RC jobs that are apparently somewhat different) you need to go with a smaller venturi or they tend to be hard to get along with. The CL versions, for the most part, can take a slightly bigger venturi without running away. I have two of them. One is an original CL version and ran pretty well right out of the box. The other is one I picked up that I believe was an RC version. I had to go down to a very small venturi before the run stabilized. Weirdly, both seem to produce about the same power with wildly different setups.

The La46 piston and liner are the same for R/C and U/C

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXCJ39&P=Z


Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2011, 03:26:51 AM »
Run characteristics of a specific engine model can vary slightly from example to example. Differences in how tolerances converge effecting piston fit, compression, vibration resonance (maybe?). So it seems to me. Some engines run sweet out of the box, no muss no fuss. Other examples of the same model are more prop sensitive, or in need of an extra head gasket or venturi tuning. Or... I've had an engine run great on one airframe be less friendly on another airframe. Variables in airframe rigidity, vibrations harmonics, color of the monokote (I'm joking!) and X-FACTORS (the worst) requiring retuning. Lately, I've often taken to swapping out a balky engine from a given airframe installing another example of the same model. Often this works. Feasible with the mass produced engines, especially engines purchased on the cheap. Not the way to go, of course, with $400 hand fit dedicated stunt stuff. In my experience LA46s are among the most user friendly mass market greasy noise makers. But at least one example I know, needed lots of this and that to tame. Far as I could tell it was not worn out. It was just "special." Fox 35s can be a challenge. Almost a hobby in themselves.

Offline Steven Kientz

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2011, 06:16:33 AM »
  I think alot has to do when your engine was made (during that tool cycle). was it in the first 30% when the tooling was new, or the last 10% when everthing was near replacement? Not to mention are we talking CNC or human operators?

Steve
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2011, 08:48:35 AM »

    "All the reworked versions I have seen were incredibly gutless, like, less-than-a-Fox-35 gutless. In fact I think you were present at the NWR where we were trying to work on a Pathfinder profile with a reworked 46LA that could barely get over the top in a wingover. And I was looking around for a stock Fox and a can of 25%.

    Brett"

Hi Brett
You must be finding some that have been improperly done, NONE of my reworks are "gutless" just ask anyone who has them, you keep telling people this and they assume it is all of them. The LA 46 can be made to work very very well and can be improved on, It will work well stock but is far from being a perfect motor stock. I agree I have also seen weak reworked motors, but a person killing an engine from lack of knowing what and why, does not make them all suspect.
ALL of the stock LAs I have seen do not run as well as my reworks , as well as the FPs and the SFs

Regards
Randy

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2011, 12:43:06 PM »
    "All the reworked versions I have seen were incredibly gutless, like, less-than-a-Fox-35 gutless. In fact I think you were present at the NWR where we were trying to work on a Pathfinder profile with a reworked 46LA that could barely get over the top in a wingover. And I was looking around for a stock Fox and a can of 25%.

    Brett"

Hi Brett
You must be finding some that have been improperly done, NONE of my reworks are "gutless" just ask anyone who has them, you keep telling people this and they assume it is all of them.

    And I never mentioned that it was one of yours. I see your point, however. I don't mean Randy.

     But what gets me on this topic is that I see the same scenario over and over. There are plenty of good stunt engines that can be run straight out of the box with essentially no mods, if you put the right prop on it.

    But, every beginner thinks they need a good "simple" 4-2 "stunt run" (IOW, a "stunt run" from 1975) - that has for the most part been superceded for the past 25 years - and that they either need some "expert" to breath on it to ensure it is right, or that having a "Joe Blow 46LA" sounds cool and will get them credibility at the field. They get it, usually for twice the price of the stocker, and sure enough, it will do sort of a 4-2 at low revs. And they put their super-duper LA in a Nobler and it will barely get out of it's own way. Darned if that doesn't replicate Fox 35 performance, with only 30% more displacement. This happens with half-a-dozen various engines, from various sources, now that guy doesn't come out anymore.

    And the way the engine is set up, there's no way to fix it aside from getting a new stock piston/liner and frequently, new stock cylinder head, a stock muffler (which won't fit, and was thrown away "cause it's too heavy", and some 12.75-3.75 APCs. So here we are, in some soybean field or otherwise out in the boondocks, or 10 minutes before official flights at a contest, no spares, no alternatives, sorry, buddy, you're out of luck.

    I have seen this play out literally dozens of times. It also happens repeatedly with the various iron-curtain stunt engines. One example - the same guy got various versions of the Stalker 35 and 40, and the Double Star 40, RE, SE, whatever. Try one, runs smoothly enough, but not enough power for a Nobler clone. And it's essentially unfixable without expert help because it was overcompressed to run on FAI fuel. Get one, gutted out lean in level flight for 5.5 laps on a 10-6, even at sea level, sorry, get another one. Repeat 5x. OK, that didn't work, so I will get a GMA ST56 to put in a bigger airplane. Starts up, sounds OK on the ground, release, the engine dies on the takeoff roll because the compression is so low that it needs a gigantic venturi that won't suck fuel well enough to make it through the takeoff acceleration. Different guy, a GMA ST60 in a Shark 45. Worked pretty good with Veco 45 and an ST46, 60 should make it sit up and talk. Sags on the takeoff roll but makes it through, squeaky lean in every maneuver, falling out of the sky overhead. Check the head clearance and it's about 1/16". Run 18% nitro, it start flying pretty good - about like Lew's flew with an ST46.

 All of that could have been solved with one box-stock 46LA, or an Aero-tiger, for a fraction of the price. That's the frustration.

     These are just a few examples and these are the cases with at least good workmanship. But the above scenario is so rampant and so damaging that I can't just let it go.

    I don't think anybody intentionally screws it up, and I think most of those engaged think they are doing people a favor by making a "simple" engine.  But most of them also either have no idea what has been going on in stunt at the high levels for the last quarter of a century, think it's "too complicated", or in a few cases, trying to prove some sort of a half-assed point about how they knew the "right way" and " I am going to show them all" . There's also 5 guys in every region who fancy themselves "engine experts".

     Brett

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2011, 01:38:10 PM »
    And I never mentioned that it was one of yours. I see your point, however. I don't mean Randy.

     But what gets me on this topic is that I see the same scenario over and over. There are plenty of good stunt engines that can be run straight out of the box with essentially no mods, if you put the right prop on it.

    But, every beginner thinks they need a good "simple" 4-2 "stunt run" (IOW, a "stunt run" from 1975) - that has for the most part been superceded for the past 25 years - and that they either need some "expert" to breath on it to ensure it is right, or that having a "Joe Blow 46LA" sounds cool and will get them credibility at the field. They get it, usually for twice the price of the stocker, and sure enough, it will do sort of a 4-2 at low revs. And they put their super-duper LA in a Nobler and it will barely get out of it's own way. Darned if that doesn't replicate Fox 35 performance, with only 30% more displacement. This happens with half-a-dozen various engines, from various sources, now that guy doesn't come out anymore.

    And the way the engine is set up, there's no way to fix it aside from getting a new stock piston/liner and frequently, new stock cylinder head, a stock muffler (which won't fit, and was thrown away "cause it's too heavy", and some 12.75-3.75 APCs. So here we are, in some soybean field or otherwise out in the boondocks, or 10 minutes before official flights at a contest, no spares, no alternatives, sorry, buddy, you're out of luck.

    I have seen this play out literally dozens of times. It also happens repeatedly with the various iron-curtain stunt engines. One example - the same guy got various versions of the Stalker 35 and 40, and the Double Star 40, RE, SE, whatever. Try one, runs smoothly enough, but not enough power for a Nobler clone. And it's essentially unfixable without expert help because it was overcompressed to run on FAI fuel. Get one, gutted out lean in level flight for 5.5 laps on a 10-6, even at sea level, sorry, get another one. Repeat 5x. OK, that didn't work, so I will get a GMA ST56 to put in a bigger airplane. Starts up, sounds OK on the ground, release, the engine dies on the takeoff roll because the compression is so low that it needs a gigantic venturi that won't suck fuel well enough to make it through the takeoff acceleration. Different guy, a GMA ST60 in a Shark 45. Worked pretty good with Veco 45 and an ST46, 60 should make it sit up and talk. Sags on the takeoff roll but makes it through, squeaky lean in every maneuver, falling out of the sky overhead. Check the head clearance and it's about 1/16". Run 18% nitro, it start flying pretty good - about like Lew's flew with an ST46.

 All of that could have been solved with one box-stock 46LA, or an Aero-tiger, for a fraction of the price. That's the frustration.

     These are just a few examples and these are the cases with at least good workmanship. But the above scenario is so rampant and so damaging that I can't just let it go.

    I don't think anybody intentionally screws it up, and I think most of those engaged think they are doing people a favor by making a "simple" engine.  But most of them also either have no idea what has been going on in stunt at the high levels for the last quarter of a century, think it's "too complicated", or in a few cases, trying to prove some sort of a half-assed point about how they knew the "right way" and " I am going to show them all" . There's also 5 guys in every region who fancy themselves "engine experts".

     Brett

That has been the case for many decades now, and given the fact there are a million ways to mess up an engine run, it isn't easy to fix or give info that will cover everything, There is also the bad advice or good advice applied to the wrong motor..such as running a 10 x 6 on a FSR and the 100s of same type deals.  Wrong Fuel, prop,compression etc. etc. etc.. that will make even a great motor run bad.
That was the main reason I started writing articles about this a long time ago. One of the biggest problem..like it or not.. is the huge availability of free expert advice that turns out not to work so well. I too have seen this for decades, and there doesn't seem to be anyway to cover that.
Forums like this are probably the biggest help to reach people to get this sort of problems sorted out.

Regards
Randy

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2011, 08:37:00 AM »
I hope guys don't count me as an engine expert.   Even Wright/Dunkin tried to teach me how to make engines run better.  I left that up to my pilots as they had the lathes and tools to work with.  I state any thing about any engine it is to the fact of how it works in my area.   Then it is to engine plane combination, as someone stated earlier,  some engine plane combos don't work.  I still have a couple of engines that have had touches done to them.   A couple are put back in the boxes as I don't like to really fiddle with them.  One of my best engine is box stock and has only been cleaned twice in the last 20+ years.   H^^
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2011, 09:52:06 AM »
Tom, It would be great to see you at the regionals.
Are you going to make the Deer Park Pylon event? I am hoping to test fly my new Profile after the racing ( paved runway and all)
If you want any tidbits on the LA, Pat and I use the same setup pretty much, bone stock, smaller venturi ( .272) ST or Randy SMith needle assembly, APC 12.25x3.75 prop. Your Pathfinder kit may need slightly longer gear to accomodate the prop length,, and the prop is probably the biggest factor in making the engine work right. I may have a slightly spare venturi if that helps.
Let me know.
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Offline Tom Strom

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2011, 11:48:18 AM »
Hi Mark.  I am hoping to go to the Regionals, but uncertain at this point.  If I go, it will not be to fly.  I iwll not be in Deer Park either.  I had a pretty bad shoulder injury I am trying to get healed.  In my diown time, I am trying to build the Pathfinder.  Since it is my right shoulder that is injured, and I am right handed, the building is going slow.  I did get the tail built this weekend, and am ready to start sanding it.  Just have to learn how to do it left handed.  Going to start the fuse tonight.  How do I get longer landing gear?  I do not have the bending equipment nor the knowledge to accomplish that.  Bigger tires?  Also, I do have the smaller venturi, as I have several FP 20;s and 25's.  Found some ST needle assemblies in my stash as well.  Went to the LHS yesterday, ( fortunatly my son works there) and got a couple of the 12.25 x 3.75 props.  Going to wait on getting the spinner until I know whether I need nose weight or not.  Either go aluminum or plastic.  So, thanks for the input, and I hope to see you at Regionals. 
I have a TF Score new in the box.  Is that aircraft worth putting together just to have something to fly?  (would have to recover of course).  Have not seen or heard much about those.  Got this one free from someone getting out of the hobby.  Wish it was a Vector, but it is what it is.FREE.

Tom


Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2011, 12:58:00 PM »
Tom, Free is good!
From what I heard the Score tends towards the heavy side, have not heard a lot other than that. They made a splash when they came out and then kind of fizzled. Using the search function on this site should bring up relevant threads regarding it. I recall that everything I read said it takes a fairly strong engine to make the Score fly well. I have a Byron Barker reworked Magnum .52 that might be a good match for it. I have seen Saito .56, ST 60s and others powering them.
Sorry you wont make Deer Park but I sure understand the injury thing, take care do the therapy and get better. As to gear, making them is my option, but I am sure someone can hook you up. Dont know if larger wheels would be enough, perhaps looking at the plans and overlaying a 12" prop onto them would give the answer. Over grass the gear lenght would obviously be more critical than over pav4ement. If you need anything feel free, I aint no expert but I have some of the answers. John Miller on here would be a good go to guy as well, he did the plans on the Brodak Pathfinder as I recall.
HOpe to see you in Eugene, its a very entertaining weekend regardless of whether you fly or not. Lots going on.
Take care of the shoulder, we will miss you in Deer Park sounds like turnout from the West side will be sparse, thats sad,,,
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2011, 05:58:41 AM »
The problems with the Score is a weak nose and lousy control system.  Great flying plane once set up. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Tom Strom

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2011, 02:02:09 PM »
OK, well maybe I should leave it in the box.  Or take it out once in a while and see what I can improve.  Thanks.

Tom

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2011, 02:04:47 PM »
OK, well maybe I should leave it in the box.  Or take it out once in a while and see what I can improve.  Thanks.

  Most of the issues I have seen with ARFs revolve around the fuselage/engine mount. If I had one I would be tempted to use the wings and tail and make a new fuse with a proper mount.

   Brett

Offline Chucky

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2011, 02:13:18 AM »
What's not to like about free?  Were I given a Score, I'd install a proper control system, a stunt-friendly .60 size motor, and fly the China-kote off of it (which doesn't take too long).  Just make sure your shoulder's ready for a plane that pulls like a truck.
Chuck Winget

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2011, 06:51:16 AM »
Installing the new controls has always meant major surgery (and scars) in my experience. A pain. Especially with an ARF. Since they're covered. Made me convert to ARCs, kits and scratch builds. (Sort of.)

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2011, 08:28:28 AM »
What's not to like about free?  Were I given a Score, I'd install a proper control system, a stunt-friendly .60 size motor, and fly the China-kote off of it (which doesn't take too long).  Just make sure your shoulder's ready for a plane that pulls like a truck.


Only if it is not trimmed right.  I got to fly one after it had been reassembled and trimmed.  Didn't pull as hard as my Nobler.   H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Larry Cunningham

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2011, 04:29:21 PM »
Everything I've read indicates that the .46 LAs run right well out of the box for stunt. The one I saw Robert Compton flying certainly ran beautifully, but that was a small data set.

However, I recently heard about a new engine called the e46LA, which apparently comes from some third world source where they have very rough casting techniques, etc. It looks hand made. But the engine is fine and runs incredibly smooth and quiet; some said it was like an electric motor.. And no, I don't know where you can buy one.

As always, just about the time we think we have something figured out, something better comes along..

Honest Injun.

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Offline phil c

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2011, 04:48:14 PM »
One thing to keep in mind with the LA 46 or any other engine.  The size and weight of the plane it is in will have a big effect on how it has to be run, and how well it can do the job.  The LA is not a PA 75 or a Fox 35.  It doesn't have a true tuned pipe so it won't run like a piped 65, although the stock muffler makes a reasonable facsimile in some situations.  It doesn't like to grunt along at low rpm on a 6in. pitch prop.  It won't pull a 65 oz. plane like some other engines, it may not pull a 700 in. plane either.  Keep within its limits and it is a phenomenal value for the price.
phil Cartier

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Kit and Motor questions
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2011, 09:01:23 AM »
Well my OS LA .46 pulled the late P-39 with authority.  It just needed a pilot that doesn't do stupid things.  I let the plane get behind me.  Already had two official flights before this.   H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

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