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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Larry Renger on May 23, 2010, 08:50:34 AM
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The Knights of the Round Circle put on a kid training session at the Fullerton Airport open house day yesterday. We used PT-19s that we have accumulated over the years. We trained over 80 kids, and had to turn more away when it got too gusty to fly reliably. You should have seen the grins on the kids faces (we weren't exactly frowning either). We handed out nice flight certificates on that fancy presentation paper. I doubt many of those ended up in trashcans! We are delighted to put on the session, and usually a team of 5 to 7 of us are out there flying from 10 am to about 2 pm when the wind comes up. #^
For a couple of reasons, we need to come up with a better trainer. First, we are running out of PT-19 parts. Second, the design really isn't good in the wind, as it first balloons up into the wind, rolls in upwind then drops out of the sky downwind. I have some ideas based on flat coroplast (politicians sign material) wings and break-away engine mounts. Any of you with suggestions, please speak up! (we do need landing gear, as we always have these sessions over asphalt) Also, it needs to look somewhat conventional so the kids can relate to it.
The space we usually have limits us to about 25' lines, and 4 second laps seem to be about right to punch through the wind, but not be excessively fast for turning the kids around with the training pilot. Lots of criteria to meet, not a trivial problem!
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Larry, it's good to see a club still trying to get kids involved. 10 or 15 years ago we had a local club, Sutter Buttes Controliners, and we did something very similar every year at the local airport fly-in. We "instructed" at least 200 kids each year and gave out little flight certificates. We even had a raffle for a 1/2A kit and Cox engine.
The first couple of years, we used Goldberg Wizards. They fly really well and are almost indestructable if flown over grass. One year we switched designs to something called a Top Fun. A neat looking 1/2A F-18 Hornet looking thing. A simple to build, all sheet and block balsa design, engine and wing were held with rubber bands. The have a trike gear so take off is easy. I don't think they flew quite as well as the Wizard, but handled a breeze OK and they were more attractive to the kids. I think the design came from Model Aviation, but I'll check on that. We held a building party a couple of days before the event and the whole club would build about 15 planes.
BTW, after years of doing this, not one kid came to a club meeting or flying session and we never heard from any of the raffle winners.
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I think we have gotten a new member or two out of the deal, but the main thing is the AFI flight training center at the airport lets us meet in their facility, and this is partly a thank-you to them. Besides, it's fun! Hang with some buddies, make noise, show off, make the kids grin fit to have the tops of their heads fall off!
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Larry, I believe that you found the American Boy to be a good flying plane. I have a modified model of it called the Army Scout, it is easier to build and stronger another plus is that it can use any Cox engine. One more thing ... I made this offer two years ago to replace the Cox PT-19's with free model kits and I will still do that ... tell me how many and they are yours. Plus we have replacement parts.
Larry
Black Hawk Models
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For a couple of reasons, we need to come up with a better trainer. First, we are running out of PT-19 parts. Second, the design really isn't good in the wind, as it first balloons up into the wind, rolls in upwind then drops out of the sky downwind. I have some ideas based on flat coroplast (politicians sign material) wings and break-away engine mounts. Any of you with suggestions, please speak up! (we do need landing gear, as we always have these sessions over asphalt) Also, it needs to look somewhat conventional so the kids can relate to it.
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You should talk to Art Johnson of Rockford Ill. He takes care of the airplanes we use at Kidventure, and we put in a lot of flights. They have used a modifed RTF Skybaby, norvel 061's and 35-42 foot lines. Art is running out of airplanes, and is looking for ideas.
Dave
You
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Larry Renger,
Go to our site:
http://www.BalsaBeavers.ca
and download the plans for the ManWin Trainer. (coroplast sign material, simple bent aluminum motor mounts)
You will not find (or make) a better 1/2A trainer period. You might say it beats a balsa trainer "all hollow". Rediculously industructable.
Kim.
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Thanks for the info, but the ManWin trainer, however good it is (and I expect it is everything claimed) does not mee our needs. We need a trainer that sort of LOOKS like a real airplane, and has landing gear for continuous use on asphalt all the time.
Currently, my thoughts are a pivoting mount using the Brodak 1/2A mount (which I designed while at Cox, BTW), rubber band stabilized LG, a Coroplast wing with a carbon rod stiffener, rubber banded on wing, Coroplast fuselage and tail surfaces.
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Larry Renger,
Ok, so no ManWin "style" but there is no need to rubber band the wing or tail of a coroplast model. (they are not going to break) Think indoor foamy F3P type cruciform layout with a rubber banded motor mount. Make the fuselage keel deep enough to protect the prop and do away with the gear.
Kids don't really care what a model looks like. Adults might, but they are not the point of the exercise.
Kim.
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Easy enough to mock up both types. We'll see what "has the beef"!
BTW, when I was at Cox, we needed to test planes in a 45deg crash, but none of us could overcome the urge to "miss the ground". We eventually built a barrier of 1-1/2" ply standing up at 45deg, that we could run straight into. Surprising how powerful those muscle memories are!
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Larry,
Super easy to build, cheap, flys great, but I do recommend putting the gear behind the firewall like in the built up version. I've flown all the manuevers in the pattern with this style of model and trained a ton of kids. Sandwich the 1/8" wings between the 2 1/2" x 1/4" pieces of the fuse and place an 1/8" spacer in the areas where there is no wing. Cant the tail ala Ringmaster style, use a heavy washer as a wing weight.
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g3/Adduckted/planes/pics.jpg)
built up version
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g3/Adduckted/planes/LoneWolf003.jpg)
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Super easy to build, cheap, flys great, but I do recommend putting the gear behind the firewall like in the built up version. I've flown all the manuevers in the pattern with this style of model and trained a ton of kids. Sandwich the 1/8" wings between the 2 1/2" x 1/4" pieces of the fuse and place an 1/8" spacer in the areas where there is no wing. Cant the tail ala Ringmaster style, use a heavy washer as a wing weight.
I would clamp the landing gear on with the engine, like Sig's 1/2-A stuff -- but only because I usually fly off of grass, and the ship gets ever so much more sprightly when you take the landing gear off.
Landing gear on = more drag, forward GC, good trainer.
Landing gear off = cleaner airflow, quicker turns, fun fun fun.
That built-up wing version is just too cute -- what did you use for covering?
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I think it was monokote, but not sure, definitely some kind of iron on. That plane and its twin (purple wings with cobalt trim) flew great with AP 061 power. I think the all up weight was just shy of 9 oz. Only down side was the tank was too small for a thirsty engine. total time after engine start was maybe 2-3 minutes, and I usually fly from a stooge so flight time was only about 2 min tops. Both died the same death, practicing overhead 8's and ran out of gas. The leading edge was nothing more than a piece of 1/8" balsa with a carbon fiber backer, 1/16" ribs bust to pieces when they fall straight down from 40 ft.
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A retired mouse racer makes a fine trainer. Mouse racers are very stable and fly in the wind. Just use your worst black widow, a 6 x 3 prop, and 10% nitro fuel. The old 35 ft lines are about right.
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I too helped with the effort this year and getting these kids flying is great fun. We do it as a way of saying thanks to the people at Fullerton airport for letting us use their building for club meetings. But to be honest I would do it regardless, we have every bit as much fun as the kids do. We can get a kid in the air every couple of minutes but it takes a real team effort. We have one person on the ground who fuels, starts and launches. We have a second person picking up the plane and returning it to the starter. A third person is out with the kids and helping them fly. A fourth person spends his entire time putting broken planes back together and helping the pickup man swap planes when a crash happens. We also have two people to control the line of people with kids waiting their turn. One of the two is also filling out certificates we give to each kid to take home. When the team is working it is a sight to see. It is also great to see the parents cheering their kids on and taking pictures to capture the moment.
Andy
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after years of doing this, not one kid came to a club meeting or flying session and we never heard from any of the raffle winners.
I think most kids takes it in as an amusement or just something to do. From what I remembered, we didn't needed anyone to sell us this hobby. A few school buddies and I got our interest in CL from watching .15 combat flights from a local club, it was an awesome show.. and it looked like fun. a plane able to turn so fast & tight at high rate of speeds chasing for cuts. We all went and bought a PT-19 (RTF) or something similar and learned to go round round on that, then went into the balsa ones (like the Carl Goldberg's Stuntman, Jumpin bean, then the L'il Satan). learned most of the maneuvers on those, then into .15 combat stuff. We all had so much fun back then.. I left off for about 30yrs, and now I fly stunt. I think if a club put up a good show for the general public, it "will" draw public interests.. and combat might just have an edge over stunt for the memorable moments.. unless the spectators knows a bit about the pattern, the turns, 5' bottoms etc. H^^
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In the 5+ hours we were able to fly--till the wind got too bad--we put 80+ kids and others on the handle. We also had one that came back 3 times. The flights were not long and all the pilots enjoyed every min. It was ever interesting to hear the crowd groan with every crash.
The best was when there were brothers or a brother-sister that went up. The kidding each other after the flight on who did the best wasthe best family time . This is something I look forward to each year.
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This sounds like the year that Melvin and I got the privelage of helping Dale Kirn at the NATS. I don't know how many PT-19's he had but, we went all day. Each person had to sign the flying list. At the end of an hour a name/number(can't remember which) was drawn. The winner received a complete brand new PT-19 set with the startig kit inside. One young boy was there all day puting up a flight each hour. He also helped a little. At the end of the day needless to say he did not win any of the drawings. The kid was on cloud nine when Dale called him over and gave him a PT-19 set like was being given away all day. Dale knew how to work with youngsters. He is also one of the greats in this hobby/sport. H^^
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Here is a photo of Andy piloting and yours truly starting. Also a sketch of what I have in mind for the nose of my proposed trainer.
The nose with engine and tank pivots up, the landing gear pivot back and the wing rubber-bands on (bellcrank solidly mounted to the fuselage)
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Northern Virginia Control Line annually flies at venues where we do flight training on concrete with little loss. 50 foot lines, used 19s (often Enya or Veco/K&B) on a modified Flite Streak Trainer or a Dick Mathis (oops - forgot the name). key ingredient: 1 ounce tank.
I think where we are missing it is in the building. Before you say "kids aren't interested in building" ask yourself how all of these kids became interested in soccer? Foreign game, somewhat pointless to those of us raised on baseball and football.
The answer: the kids weren't interested. It was their Moms!!!! Soccer was sold as 1) good exercise, 2) everyone plays, 3) good sportsmanship. So the Moms signed up Junior.
Karate - same thing! 1) good exercise 2) good grades 3) self control - so the Mom's signed their kids up! Find a strip mall in America that doesn't have a karate studio with a kid's program!
We keep trying to sell to the kids: "Gee, isn't this fun?" When we should be selling to the Moms: "Junior is going to learn all kinds of math, science, art, and hand skills. This hobby is a self-taught pre-science, pre-engineering prep course! Build model airplanes as kid, grow up to be skilled adult!"
Come on guys! Its right in front of our noses!
Scott
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We keep trying to sell to the kids: "Gee, isn't this fun?" When we should be selling to the Moms: "Junior is going to learn all kinds of math, science, art, and hand skills. This hobby is a self-taught pre-science, pre-engineering prep course! Build model airplanes as kid, grow up to be skilled adult!"
Come on guys! Its right in front of our noses!
That's what I tell my wife: let me play with building the planes, and when I grow up I'll be a productive adult.
I think you're right. Get testimonials from all the folks that grew up putting together model airplanes and ended up successful engineers, entrepreneurs, etc.
Just don't let them show their scar collections, and make sure you pry off any balsa that happens to be glued to fingers before they get on camera.