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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Gordan Delaney on March 28, 2012, 12:53:10 PM

Title: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Gordan Delaney on March 28, 2012, 12:53:10 PM
Just got of the phone with John Miller his is at the University Hospital in salt Lake City. Someone in the room answered the phone and held it for him so we could talk. This happened once before,only this time was much worse. He was trying to put an antenna on the roof which is close to high power lines. He can`t move his hands or knees. He`s in bad shape but should recover. He said it will be several months to recover. Please keep John in our prayers. Speedy recovery my friend.

Gordy
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Tim Wescott on March 28, 2012, 12:55:45 PM
Ouch.  John -- don't do that again!
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Gene O'Keefe on March 28, 2012, 12:59:11 PM
I'll add him to the FMC prayer chain.....God speed John's recovery.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Derek Barry on March 28, 2012, 01:03:05 PM
That's terrible. Best wishes for a speedy recovery John!!!!1


Derek
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Mike Keville on March 28, 2012, 01:21:01 PM
Gordy, please give John my best wishes for a full and speedy recovery.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Leo Mehl on March 28, 2012, 01:48:12 PM
You should Have put that antenna on your outhouse instead of your house. I hate doing recovery. It's soooo boooooorrrrrring I will be thinking bout you John  an I also wish God Speed to record recovery. Next time keep your eyes on the power lines.Leo
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Tim Wescott on March 28, 2012, 01:54:59 PM
You should Have put that antenna on your outhouse instead of your house. I hate doing recovery. It's soooo boooooorrrrrring I will be thinking bout you John  an I also wish God Speed to record recovery. Next time keep your eyes on the power lines.Leo
I couldn't say that better myself.  I hate it when it's a choice between hurting or being useless.

Gordon: if you talk to John again add me to the list of well-wishers.  How do you pass a get-well card around the club house when the club house is virtual?
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Eric Viglione on March 28, 2012, 01:59:37 PM
Ouch! Ditto! I know that was scary & painful! Been jolted myself once or twice. It's all about the amperage...

Give John my best,

Eric Viglione
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: proparc on March 28, 2012, 04:36:06 PM
Tell him Milton "Proparc" Graham said get better soon.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Steve Helmick on March 28, 2012, 05:54:22 PM
Gordy, tell John to stay the heck off his roof, away from electrical stuff, and get better soon! See y'all at Eugene.  H^^
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Jim Kraft on March 28, 2012, 06:09:18 PM
Prayer for John sent. Hope he fools everybody and heals up way faster than they think.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Larry Renger on March 28, 2012, 09:14:44 PM
John, get well soon! I want to see your smiling face at the next VSC.

But could someone add some detail about how the accident happened?  Did the power jump? or did he accidentally touch the antenna to the wires?
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Balsa Butcher on March 28, 2012, 09:38:59 PM
Our thoughts are with you John and wishing you a speedy recovery. Darn, talk about a freak accident... :(
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Clint Ormosen on March 28, 2012, 09:41:35 PM
Boy, the weirdest stuff seems to happen to airplane people. Very anxious to hear about how this one happened.

John, rest yourself and heal up soon! We need 'ya buddy!

And for goodness sake, don't play with the defibrillator in the hospital room. ;)
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: wwwarbird on March 28, 2012, 09:48:44 PM
 Best wishes and get well soon John. y1
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Randy Powell on March 28, 2012, 10:43:22 PM
Sorry this happened. Tell John I said speedy recovery.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Walter Hicks on March 29, 2012, 12:00:07 AM
John , we are with you bud, get well soon .
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: John Leidle on March 29, 2012, 12:52:45 AM
  Gordy,
  While reading this I thought it sounded familier. Did you say he got into this stuff before?
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Randy Cuberly on March 29, 2012, 01:22:20 AM
Gordy,
Please tell John I'm really sorry this happened.  I will pray for a quick recovery for him.  Can't believe this could happen to a good guy like John.
Give him my best.
Probably should'a kept you guys here in Tucson...let you go off on your own and look what happens!

Randy Cuberly
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Bob Reeves on March 29, 2012, 04:47:05 AM
Wow! He's lucky to still be breathing. Spent the majority of my working life in two-way radio and putting up an antenna anywhere close to power lines was never an option.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Geoff Goodworth on March 29, 2012, 05:19:15 AM
John Leidle, John and I have been mates for quite a few years now and often work together on design projects—even with both of us on opposite sides of the Pacific.

I have known for some years that John was involved in ham radio but I think the last incident that he experienced—perhaps in just the last 12 months—was a lightning strike. On that occasion, I think that the only personal damage was a significant injury to his hip pocket nerve.

We wish him a speedy recovery, although Gordan has suggested to me privately that John my be laid up for some months.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: john e. holliday on March 29, 2012, 05:50:14 AM
Tell Big John that the old DOC says he is too old to be doing this.   Also to follow doctors and nurses orders.   I want to see him again. H^^
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Dennis Adamisin on March 29, 2012, 06:38:18 AM
Prayers for a speedy and complete recovery.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Allen Goff on March 29, 2012, 06:56:04 AM
Gordy. I remember as a 14 year old boy helping dad and a friend raising a ham antenna up a 75 ft tower. The gen pole started to bend and the last section of tower and the antenna made contact with a secondary power lines from a near by sub station. Dads friend was knocked off the tower and onto the house top. Because of the nails in his shoe,s the electricity went out his feet. He had a big hole in his foot and his hand too. He was in the hospital for a week I think. Those sounds of that horrible event still trouble me today.
I will be praying for your friend John.

Blessings
Allen
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: John Cralley on March 29, 2012, 07:27:41 AM
Here is to a speedy recovery John!!

For what it is worth, you do NOT have to actually come in contact with a High Tension power line to get zapped!! Just having a conductor near the line is good enough to draw an arc!! Even being nearby without drawing an arc can set up sympathetic electrical activity -- hence the warning NOT to fly your control line near power lines!!!
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Grady Widener on March 29, 2012, 07:52:09 AM
Bellcrank John,
Convalesce a bunch and sending big thoughts for up and around feel better better soon.
Grady
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Gordan Delaney on March 29, 2012, 08:22:14 AM
Geoff,

Last year when John was putting up his CB antenna it wasn`t lightning it was the same power lines doing the same thing, installing a new antenna. I`ll be going up to see him in a couple of hours. I`ll let you know how he`s doing.

Gordy
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Tom Niebuhr on March 29, 2012, 09:00:15 AM
Gordy,
Wow, I just talked to John 2 days ago!. Please say Hi and tell him to stop looking at the pretty girls when he is working on the roof.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: John Leidle on March 29, 2012, 09:24:04 AM
  The thing of it is,,,   when you have power going through your body the current flows through your internal organs & bone marrow. When you damage the bone marrow you have a high risk of Regenitive Deteriation of the bone itself . This is if you get into the 120/240 volt Residental lines near our houses.  If you fly near Transmission lines & come in contact with the voltages in upper of 4160  Volts it will blow you apart like a firecracker & leave you with 3rd degree burns on your internal organs not to mention what it does to your skin.More than likey you will be living at the Burn Center for a few months.
  Saftey is a must around this stuff.  It's nothing to scoff at.
  I wish John a speedy recovery & back to the field soon. I'd like to thank John for his contribution & personal help to me on my Electra.
             John
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: FLOYD CARTER on March 29, 2012, 11:08:11 AM
Not much chance of very high voltage lines anywhere near a residence.  Residential voltages are  deadly enough, depending on your grounding path.  High lines feeding residential pole transformers are 24,000 V, and that WILL jump about 1/2" to a grounded conductor.  Your 240 volt entrance lines are insulated, and that is sufficient to prevent to prevent shock, unless your metal antenna cuts the insulation when falling. If you touch either of the "hot" wires, it is only (!) 120 volts to ground. 

I have a large ham beam antenna on my house, but no where near any AC power.

Floyd
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Gerald Arana on March 29, 2012, 11:24:08 AM
Sorry to hear about that John.  ???
A friend of my Dad's (Jim Norville) was killed when his CL ship hit the power lines near the boardwalk here in Santa Cruz in the early '50's. I was just a young squirt then and don't remember any details except he was killed.

My brother also hit a HVL with an aluminum TV antenna when he was trying to stand it up against his aluminum shop building. Fortunately most of the juice went to the building and he was only burned on his hands and feet.  This happened about five (or so) years ago and he is in good spirits about it now. He turned 83 a couple months ago and is still drag racing his in liners. (They call him "the old man")

Speedy recovery John.

Jerry
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: John Leidle on March 29, 2012, 12:21:58 PM
 Floyd, some guys are willing to fly near transmission lines is why I wrote this .
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Martin Quartim on March 29, 2012, 12:42:20 PM
Gordy,

Please tell John my best wishes for a speedy recovery.

Martin
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Bill Little on March 29, 2012, 01:08:41 PM
I hate to hear this about my friend, John.  Best wishes and prayers for his recovery.  I know how that is because I am undergoing recovery myself, and it really really seems slow.  So tell him to keep up the spirits it too shall pass!

Bill
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Jim Kraft on March 29, 2012, 02:32:31 PM
That is so scary. When I was in high school I worked in a grain elevator during harvest in the summer, and I was using a truck lift to dump farm trucks. Not sure what happened but I got hit when the 220 came back through the switch into me. All I could remember was screaming involuntarily before I blacked out. I ended up 10 feet away, and the guys that were standing there said I jumped 6 feet in the air. I think I only got hit for an instant, and then it let me loose. I have been told that when you hit the ground is what saves you as it gets your heart started again.

Heard about this happening to others where it gets their heart out of sinc, and they have to stop it and restart it. They felt real bad until their heart was restarted.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Douglas Ames on March 29, 2012, 02:51:08 PM
This happened once before,only this time was much worse. He was trying to put an antenna on the roof which is close to high power lines.
Gordy

Didn't learn the first time?
I deal with 115 VAC/400 Hz Aircraft power everyday. So far I've only been bit by static due to a poorly grounded aircraft - not fun.
Hope his heart's alright. Nothing wrong with installing an antenna in the attic as long as it's grounded.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Jim Rhoades on March 29, 2012, 03:14:14 PM
     I went to see john yesterday, wednesday, afternboon at the hospital.  He seems to be doing pretty well.  The shock knocked him off the roof of his metal mobile home and when he woke up he couldn't move and wasn't breathing.  He said he forced himself to breathe and feels that if he hadn't he wouldn't be alive now.  He was installing an antenna on the roof and said the arc jumped to the antenna some distance.  I believe he said it was a 7500 volt line.
     They had to slit his inner arms to reduce the pressure on his hands so that blood could circulate properly.  He said he could see the muscles and tendons.  When I was there the nurse checked him for feeling and movement on his fingers and toes.  He could move his fingers fairly well but said he didn't have much feeling but there was some which is a good sign.  His arms were wrapped and coveed because of the slits they did on them.  He seemed in pretty good spirits and I think he will recover OK but it may take some time.  While I was ther they took him to X-ray to check out a possible re-injurying of his back from an old injury.  I don't know the results of that.
     I talked to Gordan Delaney earlier today and he was going to see John so he should have a new report soon.  As was said earlier, this was the second time this happened in the last years time.  John evidently is a slow learner.  He did say that this will be the last time he tries to install an antenna ton the roof of the metal mobile home.  I hope so.  The third time might be the charm that takes his life.
     Get well soon John
Jim Rhoades
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: builditright on March 29, 2012, 03:17:39 PM
Hi Guys, I spoke with John on the phone a little while ago,
he does not sound good at all and said he may be in the hospital
for a couple of months because he will also have to do therapy.

He was actually kind of out of it when I called but said I could post
the number to his room so if anyone wants to give him a shout here it is.

801-581-2700 ask to connect to John Miller's room

Get well soon bud
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Tom Niebuhr on March 30, 2012, 08:09:38 AM
Jim & Walt,

Thanks for the updates on John. I think it is probably best to give him a few more days before more telephone calls. Gordy and Jim can give us more of a feeling on John's status.

John is far from wealthy, he probably needs a lot of support.

John is one of the nicest people that I know, our prayers are with him.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: dale gleason on March 30, 2012, 09:33:08 AM
At age twelve, someone we all know and love connected three or four extension cords between a wall plug and his Grandad's old electric drill, ungrounded. Wearing shorts, barefoot, and kneeling in deep wet grass, he was going to drill the bellcrank hole for a Sterling P-40. Upon pulling the trigger, the voltage/amperage wouldn't allow him to let go. He sorta' bounced into the street far enough that the cord unplugged. The cars managed to stop before running him over. He ran into the house, hollerin', his parents thought his brother had been run over, so they left abruptly to check on his brother, leaving him stranded and bewildered.

Boy, was that a lesson learned....no more Sterling P-40s for me! :)

The first commandment in the King's English: Thou shalt not allow thy body to supercede the earth.

Get well quick, John,
dale g
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Randy Powell on March 30, 2012, 10:40:07 AM
I think there is a lesson in there somewhere.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Randy Cuberly on March 30, 2012, 11:12:42 AM
I'm really puzzled!
I'm still wondering how such a bright talented guy could allow this to happen to him twice.  It's really scary because if John could lapse into foolishness like this any of us probably could.
As an engineer with lots of experience I really understand the principles of the physics involved here but really do not understand the inner workings of the human mind that allow us (not just John) to slip into a fog that makes us determined to do something even though we know it's a stupid thing to do.
I think that's the lesson here...be ever vigilant for that spark of nonsense that allows these things to happen to us.
Distressing!

Randy C

I want to call John but think I will wait a few more days.  I'm sure he's getting more attention than he probably wants right now.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: John Leidle on March 30, 2012, 12:03:57 PM
 I suggest everyone here  Googles "Electrical Burns"  and gets a look at pictures of a silent force. A lot of people scoff at this stuff. I hope we all learn from what poor John is going though. If he got into "High Voltage"  he is most likely in agony. I hope this is not his case.  If you have ever seen Electrical Accidents you would realise your way of life is on the line when getting close to it.  When you get up over 600volts it does things you cant believe.
  John
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: dirty dan on March 30, 2012, 12:27:05 PM
This is really bad news about a great guy.

Gordan, will you please closely monitor the recovery process? I am concerned that John will use this time to get involved in electric-powered CL models...!

Or maybe not.

Dan
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: EddyR on March 30, 2012, 12:38:56 PM
As a kid in the 50's I and a friend whose dad ran a TV and appliance store put up hundred's of TV antennas in the Binghamton NY area. Some were on steep roofs on two story houses and we did a lot of 40' towers on flat  roof apartments with high voltage on two sides of the building. We never had a problem as we new the danger and were very carfull. We always used a safety rope on steep roofs. I wouldn't go near those steep roofs today. I did find out real soon that if you had a cut and let it come in contact with the ground wire you got a **** shock.  It was low voltage but in a open cut it felt like 110 volts. I got a lot of 12,000 volts hits off of the TV old picture tubes in the 1950's. Won't kill you but it will knock you down y1
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Will Hinton on March 30, 2012, 03:30:50 PM
As we tend to minimize the danger of our household 120 volts I just HAVE to ad this - someone posted that "It's the amperage" and we need to keep that in mind.  120vac causes more deaths in the US than any other voltage, (at least for several years that was the case. I haven't monitored it since I retired)  for the reason that we do tend to poo-poo it as dangerous.  120 with plenty of current is deadly.
John, I pray you heal completely with no after effects!
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: FLOYD CARTER on March 30, 2012, 03:48:56 PM
It's true that the current flow is the dangerous thing.  But, the amount (and time) of current depends on many factors.You just don't know until it happens, and then it's too late.  Remember that current flow is impossible without a voltage source.  So, you can be 100% safe by avoiding high voltage sources.

F.C.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Allen Brickhaus on March 30, 2012, 05:19:16 PM
John,  Blessings to your quick recovery.

Allen Brickhaus
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Garf on March 30, 2012, 09:51:34 PM
I have been told that as little as 35 volts can kill you under the right circumstances. I don't feel like finding out.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: John Leidle on March 31, 2012, 05:20:13 AM
  Will,
  I worked with a guy that cut into the Runway lighting at Sea Tac Airport 1,200 volts   he had a scar on his elbow the size of an old silver dollar .I worked with a guy that was hit by a fireball from a 13,800 fault at a glass company. The poor guy looked like a lizard.  He hadnt touched the line , dust from above was disturbed & the dust served as a conductor  & threw a fireball out into him.
     You are in my thoughts John Miller . Good luck.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Eric Viglione on March 31, 2012, 07:02:55 AM
Folks, some of y'all just have no idea...

I met a guy at one of my clients who was a tree trimmer. He was trimming a tree next door to a power substation... The power arc'ed from a distance you would have thought was well safe away, and vaporized both arms up to his shoulders. I mean, gone, nowhere to be found. Poof! This is not stuff to be messed with people! It's amazing this guy is still alive. All they can figure is when his arms went poof so fast, that the circuit never passed through his heart or brain enough to kill him, since he was sweating profusely, it was an external event on his arms, wet skin, and the pole saw where the arc traveled through the arms and thats it. Of course he had some serious burns too... which again, cauterized the wound. *shudders*

Like I said before, the unlimited amperage on tap on a high voltage multi phase line is pretty much death incarnate. When I was a bench tech, the voltage coming off of fly-back transformer and a silicone tripler was nasty at 28KV! But it wasn't high current. I've been blown out of my chair back up against the wall, and embarrassed more than hurt, with a burn and muscle cramp or two... R/F and high freq stuff can be nasty too... drill a little hole right through your finger tip if you stick it in the wrong place. Then people would wonder why I liked such long test probes and I would still wrap the ends with just the points exposed, heh. Old Tube equipment with those large transformers and big caps and lot's of current in reserve and B+ at 400v can kill ya dead... much more so than most of todays low voltage computer equipment which is all 12v/5v DC, as long as you stay out of the AC side of the sealed factory power supply, which is no different than your wall plug and just as deadly. They're sealed for a reason, so don't go poking things in their trying to spin up your dead cooling fan, LOL.

Anyways, stay off the metal ladders and away from power lines folks, and hope John starts to recover real soon!

EricV
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Will Hinton on March 31, 2012, 07:18:32 AM
Wow, Eric, you bring back a very unpleasant memory for me.  On the old Essex, I started to remove the cover from the power supply on an ARN 21 Tacan and put my finger in the plate cap!  wow!!  11.7K frequency riding on a 900 volt dc reference!  Little hole in my finger at the exit point?  You bet!  Headaches for three days the sick bay guys wouldn't give me anything for?  You bet.  They said any treatment could do me in because it had traveled through my body from finger tip to finger tip.
I was one blessed lucky dude to come through that one.
Heal fast, John.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: ChrisSarnowski on March 31, 2012, 11:21:11 AM
Hi John,

Best wishes for a speedy recovery!

-Chris
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: john e. holliday on April 01, 2012, 07:37:54 PM
Try sticking your tongue across the terminals of the old 1 1/2 volt dry cell telephone battery sometime. VD~
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: wwwarbird on April 01, 2012, 08:18:44 PM
Gordan,

Would it be possible to do make a contribution through Paypal? It's much more convenient for those who have it.

Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Mike Lauerman on April 05, 2012, 10:04:22 PM
John always spends time with wife Joey and me at the Golden State Champs in Clovis. We have him in our prayers for a quick recovery.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Howard Rush on April 05, 2012, 11:00:50 PM
Try sticking your tongue across the terminals of the old 1 1/2 volt dry cell telephone battery sometime. VD~

It won't melt the ice on the pump handle.  It just makes that problem worse.
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: builditright on April 06, 2012, 08:56:58 AM
to contact John
call floor desk & ask to be connected to John Miller's room

801-581-2700
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Russ Danneman on April 06, 2012, 11:23:57 AM
Gordan,

Would it be possible to do make a contribution through Paypal? It's much more convenient for those who have it.


[/quot
ditto
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Steve Thornton on April 13, 2012, 10:22:23 PM
John,
I don't know you but I have learned some things from your posts, and thank you for sharing your skill. I do know some of these fine men sending you their prayers and comfort, and their high regard for you speaks volumes.
I have a friend, an electrician, who was electrocuted while removing the wiring from a machine shop lathe.  He was on a ladder when he slipped, grabbed an overhead water pipe, and was blown out of his jeans.  The ER Doc said his blood boiled and no chance of recovery or survival through the night.  That was 35 years, 3 kids, and 5 grandchildren ago and today he is as healthy as a horse.  Never take the offer of prayer lightly, we need it for lesser things than you are going through right now.  I will pray for your full and speedy recovery.
Steve Thornton
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Tom Niebuhr on August 09, 2012, 12:01:03 PM
Gordon,
What is the latest on John? Can you give us an update, and the latest phone info to talk to him?
Thanks, Tom N
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Steve Helmick on August 09, 2012, 08:08:32 PM
Good question, Tom. I promised to raffle off a NIB Tom Lay ST .60, and need to follow through on that. I talked to Gordan about it, and decided it would be good to let people rebuild their "mad money" stash for a bit, and it slipped through the cracks in my headbone. I could use guidance, as well as a sharp object to the rump. If I make the post, can I get a moderator to pin it to the top of the heap?  H^^ Steve
Title: Re: John Miller electric shock hands burned.
Post by: Gordan Delaney on August 09, 2012, 08:28:03 PM
The laytest on John is his skin graph has not been working for him. Three weeks ago they sowed his wrist to his stomach to try to get some good graphs. His spirits are OK but not as good as it was. I believe he goes back to surgery tomorrow or next week. He lost his phone to water as he bumped it into the garbage can which had water in it. I`ll see him tomorrow and let you all know how his doing.

Gordy