Author Topic: A few NATS stats (Read 6547 times)

Clint Ormosen · « **on:** May 22, 2010, 02:41:50 AM »

Did you realize..........

There's been 63 NATS events. 56 of them flown with the modern pattern.

The Fox 35 has (at least) 16 wins

SuperTigre engines have 13 NATS wins

OS engines have 10 NATS wins

Only 1 NATS has been won by a four-stroke engine (Walker- Saito 56)

"Piped" stunt engines have won 16 out of the last 20 NATS

8 NATS have been won by PA engines

Only 1 RO Jett engine has won a NATS (Buck, '06)

7 "warbirds" have won the NATS

8 different "Bobs" have won the NATS for a total of 12 "Bob" wins (Baron, Gieseke, Whitely, Hunt, Lampione, Gialdini, Palmer, Elliott)

6 pilots have back to back NATS wins (Slagle, Gieseke, Casale, Walker, Fitzgerald, Hernandez)

7 pilots have 3 or more total NATS wins ( Slagle, Gieseke, Casale, Werwage, Fancher, Walker, Fitzgerald,)

Longest time span for a pilot between first and last NATS win is 22 years. (Werwage)

Since 1990, only 6 different pilots have NATS wins (Fitzgerald, Hernandez, Buck, Walker, Fancher, Baron)

Since 1990, 1 pilot has had near 30% of the total wins (Fitzgerald)

Since 1990, 1 pilot has had near 40% of the total wins. (Walker)

Only 1 pilot has 10 total wins (Walker)

The winner of the first NATS is named Dave.
The winner of the last NATS is named Dave.

I wonder which of these stats will be changed by the 2010 NATS?

(Now begin the posts to correct me on stuff.....)

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #1 on:** May 22, 2010, 08:19:34 AM »

Clint
Correction please! Jim Vornholt won the 1960 and 1961 NATS.

Quote "6 pilots have back to back NATS wins (Slagle, Gieseke, Casale, Walker, Fitzgerald, Hernandez)"

Clancy

john e. holliday · « **Reply #2 on:** May 22, 2010, 09:42:06 AM »

I am thiking someone has too much time on their hands.

LL~Nothing like statistics tho as I had never thought of this stuff. It just now hit me, "How many have won Worlds and NATS in the same year"? I know of one, and that is the great Bob Gieseke.

Clint Ormosen · « **Reply #3 on:** May 22, 2010, 09:47:53 AM »

Quote from: Clancy Arnold on May 22, 2010, 08:19:34 AM

Clint
Correction please! Jim Vornholt won the 1960 and 1961 NATS.

Clancy

In what class did he win? My post was the Open or Walker Cup winners. The PAMPA site lists Silhavy and McFarland as the '60 & '61 winers.

Clint Ormosen · « **Reply #4 on:** May 22, 2010, 10:06:31 AM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on May 22, 2010, 09:42:06 AM

I am thiking someone has too much time on their hands. LL~Nothing like statistics tho as I had never thought of this stuff. It just now hit me, "How many have won Worlds and NATS in the same year"? I know of one, and that is the great Bob Gieseke.

NATS and Worlds same year...looks like Gieseke, McDonald, Walker.

It's hard to tell because the World Champs are every two years and sometimes they're held in the following calender year but before our NATS. So a pilot can have NATS and World wins within a year but it looks like two years on paper. Get it? In which case you might add Werwage and Fitzgerald.

dale gleason · « **Reply #5 on:** May 22, 2010, 01:42:43 PM »

I'm changing my name to "Bob".
Dale Bob

Brett Buck · « **Reply #6 on:** May 22, 2010, 01:43:05 PM »

Quote from: Clint Ormosen on May 22, 2010, 02:41:50 AM

Only 1 RO Jett engine has won a NATS (Buck, '06)

I would also note that in that year, in Open, RO-Jetts went 1-2-5 (Ted was second and Windy was 5th). Overall pretty good since I think there were maybe 5 entered, total, in what was otherwise a sea of PAs. David has been pretty successful trying to get the same sort of run on the PA65, and 75. And in the spirit of full disclosure, we first realized we *wanted* them to run that way when David and Ted came up with our definitive PA61/65 setup - that in turn runs a lot like Ted's 46VF setup from the mid-90's. The only reason Ted and I switched was because it was somewhat easier to get the RO-Jett to run that way consistently than it was the contemporary (early 2000's) version of the PA. I think the later Stage III and 2 and 5-port PAs are essentially equivalent as far as the type of run available. I know for certain that this was the goal with the 2-port 75 setup because David and I discussed it beforehand.

One thing I do know - you sure as heck shouldn't need to run a piped 61, 65, or 75 in a two-stroke to fly the same (650 square inch) airplane that we used to fly on ST46s! We hear a two-stroke now, and we start bending all efforts to fix it!

Quote

Since 1990, 1 pilot has had near 30% of the total wins (Fitzgerald)

Since 1990, 1 pilot has had near 40% of the total wins. (Walker)

Only 1 pilot has 10 total wins (Walker)

   I don't think either one gets nearly the credit/recognition they deserve. Paul was in a different time zone from 90-94, and to be honest with you I think he just got tired/bored with what he was doing, he was so much better overall. Hence the B-17, the 4-stroke, and the electric. And note that as soon as he went back to his definitive Imapct/40VF system he went right back to dominant - in 2005 against all the big-blocks (except mine, not that it would likely have made any difference). When Paul is on (and that was most of the time) it isn't always pretty to watch, but it was so relentlessly *accurate* that there was never any question that he was going to win.

   And David's current run is in the same ballpark with anyone's, and he is far from done, too. And he won in all three divisions and the W/C.

   Brett

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #7 on:** May 22, 2010, 01:58:42 PM »

Clint
The short answer is Jim Vornholt won Junior in 1860 and 1961.

The long answer (story) I will post in a new thread.

Clancy

Brett Buck · « **Reply #8 on:** May 22, 2010, 11:13:30 PM »

Quote from: Clancy Arnold on May 22, 2010, 01:58:42 PM

Clint
The short answer is Jim Vornholt won Junior in 1860 and 1961.

The long answer (story) I will post in a new thread.

Clancy

If you want to count junior and senior, I think David gets 7 straight as a junior(2)/senior(5). I think Clint was probably working from the Walker Trophy list, so that wouldn't show up.

Brett

Matt Colan · « **Reply #9 on:** May 23, 2010, 07:07:42 AM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on May 22, 2010, 11:13:30 PM

If you want to count junior and senior, I think David gets 7 straight as a junior(2)/senior(5). I think Clint was probably working from the Walker Trophy list, so that wouldn't show up.

Brett

Is their a list of Junior and senior national champions???

john e. holliday · « **Reply #10 on:** May 23, 2010, 07:20:44 AM »

Contact AMA Headquarters and maybe they might help. Hopefully they have everything on Fische or disc.

Jim Pollock · « **Reply #11 on:** May 23, 2010, 07:58:39 AM »

Didn't Lew McFarland win open back to back but missed on one of the Walker trophies to Bill Werwage?

?

Jim Pollock.....

Clint Ormosen · « **Reply #12 on:** May 23, 2010, 09:29:46 AM »

Quote from: Jim Pollock on May 23, 2010, 07:58:39 AM

Didn't Lew McFarland win open back to back but missed on one of the Walker trophies to Bill Werwage??

Jim Pollock.....

You might be right. If I had the Jr/Sr/Open history, I'll bet we could come up with all kinds of fun trivia. I was just working with the Walker Cup list on the PAMPA site.

Derek Barry · « **Reply #13 on:** May 23, 2010, 09:51:56 AM »

"8 pilots have 3 or more total NATS wins ( Slagle, Gieseke, Casale, Werwage, Fancher, Walker, Fitzgerald, Hernandez)"

Orestes only has 2 wins as far as I know.

Matt Colan · « **Reply #14 on:** May 23, 2010, 12:07:48 PM »

Quote from: Derek Barry on May 23, 2010, 09:51:56 AM

"8 pilots have 3 or more total NATS wins ( Slagle, Gieseke, Casale, Werwage, Fancher, Walker, Fitzgerald, Hernandez)"

Orestes only has 2 wins as far as I know.

I believe Orestes won advanced in 2004...

Howard Rush · « **Reply #15 on:** May 24, 2010, 12:00:17 AM »

Thanks, Clint, for gathering that data.

Somebody awhile back said that good stunt flyers didn't make good stunt plane designers. I checked to see how many Walker Trophy winners flew planes designed by Walker Trophy winners. As I remember, it was all but three: Bob Baron's Big Jim airplane and Orestes's Yatsenko airplane (twice) were the exceptions.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #16 on:** May 24, 2010, 12:10:20 AM »

Quote from: Howard Rush on May 24, 2010, 12:00:17 AM

Somebody awhile back said that good stunt flyers didn't make good stunt plane designers.

That's a bizarre statement. Who said that?

Brett

Jim Pollock · « **Reply #17 on:** May 24, 2010, 12:31:53 PM »

Yup,

Robby took over when Nat Gifford got booted to Open. Now, maybe he can help us win the next ten world championships while winning some Nats to go along with it! In my opinion the Europa is one of the prettest planes ever designed/built. I forgot to include it in the prettiest plane thread, I apologize!

Jim Pollock

Howard Rush · « **Reply #18 on:** May 24, 2010, 05:43:59 PM »

Quote from: Matt Colan on May 23, 2010, 07:07:42 AM

Is their a list of Junior and senior national champions???

Probably, and you could be on it, but only if we can get you to go to the Nats.

Matt Colan · « **Reply #19 on:** May 24, 2010, 07:43:55 PM »

Quote from: Howard Rush on May 24, 2010, 05:43:59 PM

Probably, and you could be on it, but only if we can get you to go to the Nats.

I know I want to get to the Nats. Not this year, since I'm taking Intro to College Studies this summer. We are thinking about next year, for these reasons:

1) I'll have my drivers license then
2) It looks like school will end during Brodak
3) It's the 85th anniversary Nats

I really want to go, and try to get my name on the senior trophy now (no longer a Junior)...

Clint Ormosen · « **Reply #20 on:** May 24, 2010, 09:14:20 PM »

Quote from: Derek Barry on May 23, 2010, 09:51:56 AM

"8 pilots have 3 or more total NATS wins ( Slagle, Gieseke, Casale, Werwage, Fancher, Walker, Fitzgerald, Hernandez)"

Orestes only has 2 wins as far as I know.

You're right. I fixed it.

Bart Klapinski · « **Reply #21 on:** May 28, 2010, 07:13:38 PM »

One NATS was won with a McCoy .40 .

cheers,
Bart

RandySmith · « **Reply #22 on:** May 28, 2010, 11:19:34 PM »

"7 NATS have been won by PA engines"

That is incorrect, there has been at least 9 Nats Open (maybe 10) wins with PA engines
and many many more "other" (jr sr adv etc ) NATs wins with PA engines , plus many World Medals and World Championships

Regards
Randy

Clint Ormosen · « **Reply #23 on:** May 29, 2010, 05:52:06 PM »

I should've named this post "Walker Cup Stats".

john e. holliday · « **Reply #24 on:** May 29, 2010, 06:00:33 PM »

Thanks for starting this post Clint. There always nit pikkers like me out here in cyber land.

Jim Pollock · « **Reply #25 on:** May 30, 2010, 08:01:24 AM »

Randy is absolutely correct, AND the reigning World Champion Engine is a PA .75!

Jim Pollock

RandySmith · « **Reply #26 on:** May 30, 2010, 10:57:42 AM »

Quote from: Clint Ormosen on May 29, 2010, 05:52:06 PM

I should've named this post "Walker Cup Stats".

OK I will rephrase: there has been at least 8 wins of the Walker Cup with PA engines ,., is that better

I didn't want to leave anyone out

plus you may need to delete a couple of OS Wins

1994 NATs Open Winner Paul Walker PA 40 RE
1997 NATs Open Winner David Fitzgerald PA 51 RE
1999 NATs Open Winner David Fitzgerald PA 61 RE
2000 NATS Open Winner TED Fancher PA 61 RE
2001 NATs Open Winner David Fitzgerald PA 61 RE
2003 NATs winner David Fitzgerald PA 61
2004 NATs winner David Fitzgerald PA61
2009 U.S NATs Champion David Fitzgerald PA 75 Merlin

Matt Colan · « **Reply #27 on:** May 30, 2010, 11:32:11 AM »

Quote from: RandySmith on May 30, 2010, 10:57:42 AM

OK I will rephrase: there has been at least 9 wins of the Walker Cup with PA engines ,., is that better
I didn't want to leave anyone out

1994 NATs Open Winner Paul Walker PA 40 RE
1997 NATs Open Winner David Fitzgerald PA 51 RE
1999 NATs Open Winner David Fitzgerald PA 61 RE
2000 NATS Open Winner TED Fancher PA 61 RE
2001 NATs Open Winner David Fitzgerald PA 61 RE
2003 NATs winner David Fitzgerald PA 61
2004 NATs winner David Fitzgerald PA61
2005 NATs Open Winner Dave Fitzgerald PA61
2009 U.S NATs Champion David Fitzgerald PA 75 Merlin

Randy, how many times has a junior or senior won with a PA engine?

RandySmith · « **Reply #28 on:** May 30, 2010, 11:40:57 AM »

Quote from: Matt Colan on May 30, 2010, 11:32:11 AM

Randy, how many times has a junior or senior won with a PA engine?

Hi Matt

Quick count/guess is about 15 to 20 for Jr SR Advanced, plus several more for Classic NATs champs

Randy

Clint Ormosen · « **Reply #29 on:** May 30, 2010, 11:56:04 PM »

Quote from: RandySmith on May 30, 2010, 10:57:42 AM

OK I will rephrase: there has been at least 9 wins of the Walker Cup with PA engines ,., is that better
I didn't want to leave anyone out

plus you may need to delete a couple of OS Wins

1994 NATs Open Winner Paul Walker PA 40 RE
1997 NATs Open Winner David Fitzgerald PA 51 RE
1999 NATs Open Winner David Fitzgerald PA 61 RE
2000 NATS Open Winner TED Fancher PA 61 RE
2001 NATs Open Winner David Fitzgerald PA 61 RE
2003 NATs winner David Fitzgerald PA 61
2004 NATs winner David Fitzgerald PA61
2005 NATs Open Winner Dave Fitzgerald PA61
2009 U.S NATs Champion David Fitzgerald PA 75 Merlin

I did miss one PA win (sorry 'bout that) so now I count 8. You list Dave F. with a PA as the '05 winner but the PAMPA site lists Paul W. with an OS as the winner. So which one is correct? The PAMPA site is all I have to go by. I do count 10 OS wins, but you have to go back a few years for the first couple of them as they are the OS 35-S engine.

I wish I had all the NATS stats for jr,. sr., and open. This post could have been a lot more interesting.

When I win the Cup in 2025, it will probably be with a PA engine, so I hope you're still making them for a while.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #30 on:** May 31, 2010, 07:49:46 AM »

The AMA should have all the info. If not maybe Wynn Paul, who was suppesedly doing a book on all the stunt flying. That was several years ago.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #31 on:** May 31, 2010, 11:11:12 AM »

Quote from: Clint Ormosen on May 30, 2010, 11:56:04 PM

I did miss one PA win (sorry 'bout that) so now I count 8. You list Dave F. with a PA as the '05 winner but the PAMPA site lists Paul W. with an OS as the winner. So which one is correct?

Paul won with a Impact/40VF.

Brett

Brett Buck · « **Reply #32 on:** May 31, 2010, 11:19:29 AM »

Quote from: RandySmith on May 30, 2010, 10:57:42 AM

2003 NATs winner David Fitzgerald PA 61
2004 NATs winner David Fitzgerald PA61

~~I think at least one, but maybe both, might have been with the 65. It's just more powerful enough that it is much easier to keep out of a 2-stroke.~~

As always, I was lying. David doesn't have any 65's, or so he says. Still, it's not like a 61 isn't enough.

Brett

RandySmith · « **Reply #33 on:** May 31, 2010, 12:21:30 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on May 31, 2010, 11:19:29 AM

I think at least one, but maybe both, might have been with the 65. It's just more powerful enough that it is much easier to keep out of a 2-stroke.

Brett

I need to change 05 on my site looks like I do have the 05 wrong, David told me that both the 03 and 04 wins were with 61s, He handed me the 61 after the NATs for rebuild, So Maybe I will need to ask David again to know for sure. Not that it would make much differance

I fixed my post and will need to change my site about Paul's 05 win

Regards
Randy

Brett Buck · « **Reply #34 on:** May 31, 2010, 12:24:02 PM »

Quote from: RandySmith on May 31, 2010, 12:21:30 PM

I need to change 05 on my site looks like I do have the 05 wrong, David told me that both the 03 and 04 wins were with 61s, He handed me the 61 after the NATs for rebuild, So Maybe I will need to ask David again to know for sure. Not that it would make much differance

Power was definitely not an issue in either case! And actually, the most macho-feeling, from having launched it so many times, is the 51. It still holds the static thrust record among the engines we tested. Because it's full-tilt-boogie on the ground. One of the reasons he stopped using it is that it has so much static thrust it was hard to get a good takeoff. If the nose is pointed up at release, that's the direction it goes, like a rocket launch. We did "oil plop" measurements on it, and with a 4-lb airplane it got up to 90% of full speed in about 15 feet.

Brett

Jim Pollock · « **Reply #35 on:** May 31, 2010, 01:19:25 PM »

Ummm,

I think that Randy uses the .51 on his Katana too. Not sure why, except it's easier to get enough fuel in the nose to run the entire pattern!

Jim Pollock

Brett Buck · « **Reply #36 on:** May 31, 2010, 01:52:01 PM »

Quote from: Jim Pollock on May 31, 2010, 01:19:25 PM

I think that Randy uses the .51 on his Katana too. Not sure why, except it's easier to get enough fuel in the nose to run the entire pattern!

  David ran MORE fuel in the 51, at least at point of switching to the 61.

   We have more than enough power with ANY of these engines. We aren't after more power and we haven't since 1988. Its about getting the right *run characteristics*.

   Brett