It's always the good airplanes that this happens to :(

[Matt Colan]

Today I was flying the Trivial Pursuit, and I had a fantastic motor run going, along with a pretty good flight.  I was doing the triangles and got one done, and it was a good triangle.  I started the 2nd one and after the 2nd corner, the upline broke and proceeded to do very tight outside loops.

I managed to maneuver it (I think whatever I did helped) to get it to pancake inverted. I ran back until the top of the loop, stopped, then on it's way back down whipped it again.  After 3 outside loops it hit rudder first.

At first I thought I did no damage except break a very good prop.  But when I walked to it, I saw the rudder was smashed.  There were a couple dents in the nose and that was it. Very fixable!

Tonight, I'm going to build a new rudder while grandpa gets the controls unjammed.  It should fly again in a week or so, depending on how the humidity is to spray the paint back on it.

This will be an easier repair than the Oriental Plus when it crashed last year.

[David M Johnson]

Tough one I feel your pain.
David

[Peter Nevai]

Matt,

It is painful,most of us have been there quite often. I would suggest to give the plane a very thorough inspection. Every nub, bolt, nook and cranny. I had a pathfinder LE that has a similar event except mine was a rather hard inverted landing that tumbled the plane a couple times. Everything seemed fine except for the rudder which snapped off and I glued that back on at the field. The very next flight in the middle of the overhead 8. The wing folded completely in half mid air and that's all she wrote.

Better Safe than sorry.

[Bill Hummel]

Hey, Matt, no big!  Wondering:  where did the line break?  How old/how many flights on those lines?  Thanks...

[Matt Colan]

Matt,

It is painful,most of us have been there quite often. I would suggest to give the plane a very thorough inspection. Every nub, bolt, nook and cranny. I had a pathfinder LE that has a similar event except mine was a rather hard inverted landing that tumbled the plane a couple times. Everything seemed fine except for the rudder which snapped off and I glued that back on at the field. The very next flight in the middle of the overhead 8. The wing folded completely in half mid air and that's all she wrote.

Better Safe than sorry.

Peter,

I did an inspection and the sheeting did also crack, so since we have to open up the pipe tunnel anyway, we're going to brace up the inside some more.

[Matt Colan]

Hey, Matt, no big!  Wondering:  where did the line break?  How old/how many flights on those lines?  Thanks...

Hi Bill,

The line broke at the handle.  The lines are perfectly fine.  There was about 50ish flights on the airplane, which almost has me wondering why these handle cables broke, and not the ones that are in my Oriental Plus.  It's the same Windy Handle design, and those cables have about 100 flights on them.  I should make a close inspection of those cables to make sure they are ok.

[Ron Merrill]

Hey Matt, a hard point handle may be the answer.IMHO, Ron.

[Matt Colan]

Hey Matt, a hard point handle may be the answer.IMHO, Ron.

Or a Ted Fancher handle...

[ChrisSarnowski]

Hey Matt,

Sorry to hear about the crash. Good luck with the repairs!!!

-Chris

[Matt Colan]

Hey Matt,

Sorry to hear about the crash. Good luck with the repairs!!!

-Chris

Thanks Chris,

If all goes according to plan, you'll still see it in Lee.

This means I NEED to get my Oriental Plus in better trim!

[Wynn Robins]

sounds like you need to bite the head off a herring to break the bad juju with this one.....man that sucks!!!!!

[Larry Cunningham]

..if it had been a REALLY great stunter, it would have shattered into a thousand pieces.    If it had been covered with polyspan or silk or maybe (?? uncommon on a great stunter) moneykote, the covering would serve as a handy carrying bag for most of the pieces. Otherwise, they would flutter and blow away, littering the flight circle and grounds. Some spectators would pick up souvenir balsa pieces.

Your excellent engine (after extraction) would sport a bent crankshaft, a cracked case, or both.

That lovely $75 3-bladed carbon fiber prop, along with the specially anodized $50 aluminum spinner, would be completely broken, smashed, dented and scraped.

There would be loose pieces floating around in what remained of the fuselage, just waiting to jam the control system. (Of course, you wouldn't be able to tell if the ball joints had failed to cause the crash or were simply ripped apart by the impact.)

Your custom fuel tank would be dented, holed and permanently ruined. Something would be loose and rattling around inside the carbon fiber pipe.

Your $100+ carbon fiber wheelpants, aluminum gear, et al would be ripped from the fuselage - bent, cracked and mashed. One of your wheels would disappear into the pocket of a spectator, another "souvenir"..

Like everything else, your heart would be broken.

L.

"Fear nothing, for every renewed effort raises all former failures into lessons, all sins into experiences." -Katherine Tingley

[john e. holliday]

Sounds like this plane needs the witch doctor to take the hex off the plane.   Are you going to one or two ready for the team trials?   As someone stated get a hard point handle and try it.   

[Matt Colan]

So I built a new rudder tonight, and even got it tissued!  The controlss are jammed and we've yet to cut the pipe tunnel open to unjam it.

We inspected the plane and the landing gear is cracked, and some of the sheeting cracked in the wing.

[Tim Wescott]

If you would stick to flying planes that you hate, you wouldn't crash the nice ones so often.

[Gary_Marchand]

Matt, I second what Peter Nevai said about checking the plane throughly. You must check the spar(s), LE and TE, especially if your sheeting is cracked. I pulled out of a outside square a little low and skidded a Roadrunner in upside down at Tucson. Only apparent damage was prop, canopy/turtledeck and a 1 inch shorter fin; just looked like road rash. After repair and 20 flights, the wing folded at the top of an inside square. I had apparently cracked a spar. If your sheeting is cracked you have stressed that wing big time. Look under the cracks and you may find interior damage.

Gary

[Garf]

I planted a profile once. I couldn't find any major damage. About 4 flights later, the outboard wing come off in flight, but it just kept flying.

[Peter Nevai]

..if it had been a REALLY great stunter, it would have shattered into a thousand pieces.    If it had been covered with polyspan or silk or maybe (?? uncommon on a great stunter) moneykote, the covering would serve as a handy carrying bag for most of the pieces. Otherwise, they would flutter and blow away, littering the flight circle and grounds. Some spectators would pick up souvenir balsa pieces.

Your excellent engine (after extraction) would sport a bent crankshaft, a cracked case, or both.

That lovely $75 3-bladed carbon fiber prop, along with the specially anodized $50 aluminum spinner, would be completely broken, smashed, dented and scraped.

There would be loose pieces floating around in what remained of the fuselage, just waiting to jam the control system. (Of course, you wouldn't be able to tell if the ball joints had failed to cause the crash or were simply ripped apart by the impact.)

Your custom fuel tank would be dented, holed and permanently ruined. Something would be loose and rattling around inside the carbon fiber pipe.

Your $100+ carbon fiber wheelpants, aluminum gear, et al would be ripped from the fuselage - bent, cracked and mashed. One of your wheels would disappear into the pocket of a spectator, another "souvenir"..

Like everything else, your heart would be broken.

L.

"Fear nothing, for every renewed effort raises all former failures into lessons, all sins into experiences." -Katherine Tingley

What he said, I know I was that spectator 

[Clayton Berry]

I like giving mine a 'pull test' every flight.  A little wiggle on the handle to listen for that 'twang'.

Lost a Twister (sort of a Twister, anyway) on the second flight a few years ago.  Had used heat shrink tubing over the wrapping on the lines.  One broke anyway.  Thought I was being so clever.  Probably could have seen it getting old if'n I hadn't put that black stuff over it.

Ah, but the kid I gave the remains to didn't have to mop up much oil for the re-build.  2nd flight.  Did I mention that?  Not that I'm bitter or anything.

Pardon me for a moment - I needed to kick the cat.

Never even took a picture of that beast.  Transparent green film with cream colored trim.  My brother Dan and I finished it up when I went out to visit him for Christmas.  In the new PT Cruiser.  In the ice storm.  And the overly salted pot roast he and his lovely wife prepared one night.  And Uno and pistachios and old jokes.

Life is good.

[Brett Buck]

Or a Ted Fancher handle...

  Those are one and the same. I guess I must have missed seeing your handle at the NATs.  I would certainly recommended ditching any sort of cable handle immediately. Not only are they springy, they are also, as you found out, unreliable.

    Brett

[Steve Helmick]

What Brett said. I can't believe anybody serious about flying any flavor of contest level stunt would use a cable handle. Try a hardpoint handle and  you won't go back. 

I love my TED handles. However...at Regionals, I pulled the handle out for my profile and discovered that the lower attachment leg had pulled out about 3/16".    I could see that wasn't right, and I remembered that I felt a little "twang" on my last flight the previous weekend. I pushed it back where I thought it belonged and tightened all the screws up tighter. Tightened the pinch screws on the one for the SV-11, while I was at it. They're going to get CA'd into place, and I'd absolutely suggest that everybody do the same.    Steve

[Matt Colan]

 Those are one and the same. I guess I must have missed seeing your handle at the NATs.  I would certainly recommended ditching any sort of cable handle immediately. Not only are they springy, they are also, as you found out, unreliable.

    Brett

All I have is Windy handles and Brodak handles. The brodak handles I don't like at all unless I move the bar right up to my knuckles to get it the way I want it (the handle on my Ares is like that). I would like to try a Ted handle out but I don't have any, and don't know where to obtain one.

Brett, I'll show you my handle at the Team Trials, unless I go to setting different

[Larry Fruits]

 Matt:
   Give Carl Shoup a call. He makes kits for the "Ted" handle. He has two sizes depending on the size of your hand.

 970-250-8047      shoupentstatorrepair@prodigy.net

 Good luck making your repairs and at the team trials.


      Larry   

[Matt Colan]

Matt:
   Give Carl Shoup a call. He makes kits for the "Ted" handle. He has two sizes depending on the size of your hand.

 970-250-8047      shoupentstatorrepair@prodigy.net

 Good luck making your repairs and at the team trials.


      Larry   

Thanks Larry!

I forgot to mention that the airplane is fully repaired, I now just need to paint the new rudder which I'll do tomorrow. It could fly again in 2 days if the humidity isn't too high. I'm going to paint the entire rudder red, and I'm thinking of making a new decal to put some sort of detail on the rudder.

[PJ Rowland]

Sorry to hear that Matt..
Everyone experiences a crash of some description with a big ship sooner or later.. Remember what I told you at the Nats about my bellcrank ! It jsut happens, what you need to do it take thie information everyone has given you and try not to make a similar mistake.

Some people will say models aren't " broken in " until they get some war wounds.. This is your first big stunter, so expect to have it brusied and battererd and keep flying it! Get 1000 flights on it. All the experiences you learn will help you in the future.

Hardpoint handles are VERY reliable.



So it broke at the Handle ? Did you see the line dangle free?

I DO NOT RECOMMEND THE FOLLOWING Several years ago I had the line break at the handle.. I reacted fast enough to decide to grab the free handle with my other hand, and fly the remainder of the flight out like a Stunt Kite. Wrapped the line around my hand, and finger.. It wasnt until later someone told me how easily I could have severed my finger, its just not worth trying to save a Stunt ship risking any part of your person. Great story to retell..

[Alan Buck]

Hi Matt way did the controls lock up? was it from the crash or before the crash I know how you feel had a line braek on my staris it had 13 flights on it line broke 18'' from the handle in the vertical 8 still have the plane

[Tim Wescott]

I DO NOT RECOMMEND THE FOLLOWING Several years ago I had the line break at the handle.. I reacted fast enough to decide to grab the free handle with my other hand, and fly the remainder of the flight out like a Stunt Kite. Wrapped the line around my hand, and finger.. It wasnt until later someone told me how easily I could have severed my finger, its just not worth trying to save a Stunt ship risking any part of your person. Great story to retell..

I recently crashed a plane because a line got tangled in a clip at the handle.  I remember (a) trying to untangle it while flying, and (b) thinking afterward "what the heck was I doing, reaching into that cheese cutter when everything in creation is dancing around at 50mph?"

[Matt Colan]

Sorry to hear that Matt..
Everyone experiences a crash of some description with a big ship sooner or later.. Remember what I told you at the Nats about my bellcrank ! It jsut happens, what you need to do it take thie information everyone has given you and try not to make a similar mistake.

Some people will say models aren't " broken in " until they get some war wounds.. This is your first big stunter, so expect to have it brusied and battererd and keep flying it! Get 1000 flights on it. All the experiences you learn will help you in the future.

Hardpoint handles are VERY reliable.



So it broke at the Handle ? Did you see the line dangle free?

I DO NOT RECOMMEND THE FOLLOWING Several years ago I had the line break at the handle.. I reacted fast enough to decide to grab the free handle with my other hand, and fly the remainder of the flight out like a Stunt Kite. Wrapped the line around my hand, and finger.. It wasnt until later someone told me how easily I could have severed my finger, its just not worth trying to save a Stunt ship risking any part of your person. Great story to retell..

The line flew away from the handle.  The first thing I saw was the black line clip I had on it fly away before I saw the plane do anything.

I wouldn't dare try something like that, nor do I think I'd have the reaction time to grab a broken line

Hi Matt way did the controls lock up? was it from the crash or before the crash I know how you feel had a line braek on my staris it had 13 flights on it line broke 18'' from the handle in the vertical 8 still have the plane

The controls locked up because the bellcrank went through one of the braces we made to strengthen up the inside due to the wing cracking. I put another brace in after I cut that one away, but away from the bellcrank.

[PJ Rowland]

I managed to react ONLY becasue - I snapped the down line at the top of a vertical 8.. - Imagine being 1/2 way through the outside half of the top of the vertical 8 - then as hard as you can pulling FULL UP.. Poor plane didnt know what was going on!

Incidently..... I did recount this entire story in " Amazing model stories "

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=16970.0

Its a funny read..... about exactly what happened.

On the other side of the coin..

I've had 3 Fatal crashes due to this type of thing.

• I've had the leadout unravel - pulled out from a triangle and all of a sudden I had to hold in more of Down elevator to keep it level.. plus I felt a "tug" - So i flew it around at 1 foot from the ground.. 5 laps later even from 1 foot the line let go and it went in.. Nothing left of the front.
  
• I had the line break from the Bellcrank pulling out from an Hourglass.. Up line Snapped and it went straight in.. No time to even think what happened.
• Had the bellcrank pull out of the model...... We dont talk about that... Model was fixable but still crashed..

Thing to remember - If you can..

Walk toward it to slow the rate of turn down.....
Walk Away from it - to increase the turn radius... -
If your lucky and you time it right, you may be able to pancake it..( Like you did )  - What I've seen happen a few times, is people underestimate how quick the turn radius is - or simply dont do anything and freeze. Its never fun, no-one enjoys it.

Best advice I can ever give - is.. dont panic.... and try to remember :
Its going to crash no matter WHAT you do.. Anything you attempt is better than trying nothing at all. - If you minimise the damage - you might save it.

[PJ Rowland]

Matt:

Kaz Minato also does Hard point handels.

[Derek Barry]

Matt:

Kaz Minato also does Hard point handels.

Yes he does and they rock! I use the Kaz cable handle with solids or the hard point with braids. I have never had a problem with either, I do check my lines and handle often...

Derek

[Matt Colan]

I checked my lines too, and when I went to make a slight handle adjustment, I noticed the cable was kinked, but it was the downline that was kinked. I shouldve stopped flying right there but I didn't. The flight before o felt something strange in the lines, like it was straining, once again I ignored it. I could have saved it all together by not flyin it.

And my grandfather told his friend mike, and he said, boy he even knows how to crash! Both of them said they would've froze and done nothing about it

[john e. holliday]

If you get the handle kit from Carl, think about the line clip making tool.  He has one as well as Lee Machine Shop.   

[Brett Buck]

And my grandfather told his friend mike, and he said, boy he even knows how to crash! Both of them said they would've froze and done nothing about it

   Luck *AND* skill are both important!

    Brett

[Matt Colan]

   Luck *AND* skill are both important!

    Brett

Definitely!! I got lucky that I was around 45 degrees when the cable broke. If I was closer to the ground, there would have been no hope in trying to save it.

[Matt Colan]

Well it's fixed, more or less. I still need to spray the clear on the new rudder and put a couple new decals on it. I put the motor back in, and ironed on a piece of red ultrakote where the dents were in the nose.

It's now got battle scars! 

[john e. holliday]

This is going to wind up being your best flying plane.   Of course the pilot will have to fly better to make up for appearance. LL~Keep at ityoung man.

[Matt Colan]

Here is the new rudder now awaiting to be mounted!

[Matt Colan]

Love the 50's era hot rod pin striping. Olde judges will give you 10 bonus points.

I like it too! And the color in the picture makes it look lighter.  I sprayed it directly over the base color and not putting any white over it, which made it much darker.  It resembles the color of a 78 Buick (we checked since we had some paint that matched).  WIth the urethane on it, it really POPS!

The rudder is back on the plane. We put 2 dowels in the rudder to give some place for the glue to stick to when it went back on!

[Peter Nevai]

I checked my lines too, and when I went to make a slight handle adjustment, I noticed the cable was kinked, but it was the downline that was kinked. I shouldve stopped flying right there but I didn't. The flight before o felt something strange in the lines, like it was straining, once again I ignored it. I could have saved it all together by not flyin it.

And my grandfather told his friend mike, and he said, boy he even knows how to crash! Both of them said they would've froze and done nothing about it

I have learned to check the lines every flight, I run a rag over the lines during the walk to the handle. At the handle I take out any twists left in the lines from the last flight. If I detect a kink or even some curly Q's in either line, the flight is aborted, and the lines replaced. Following this regimen I have not lost another model due to line failure. I bet you'll do this from now on.

[Matt Colan]

I have learned to check the lines every flight, I run a rag over the lines during the walk to the handle. At the handle I take out any twists left in the lines from the last flight. If I detect a kink or even some curly Q's in either line, the flight is aborted, and the lines replaced. Following this regimen I have not lost another model due to line failure. I bet you'll do this from now on.

I do that every flight, I don't check the handle. The scary thing is when we inspected the line was it wasn't frayed, or anything. It looked like somebody took a saw and sawed through it

[Matt Colan]

Here it is all set to go!

The new wire I have in my handle looks to be the same wire that is in the Brodak Bar handles.

I was also looking on Brodak's website and they sell what looks to be their own version of a Ted Fancher handle.  It's a hardpoint handle, but made of plastic.

http://www.brodak.com/shop_productdetail.php?ProductID=8462

I'm thinking I may want to get a hardpoinit handle for the Thundergazer so it's one less thing I have to worry about, and it's more reliable.

[Doug Moon]

Looks good.  

The handle from brodak is steel through the center.  The handles are plastic on either side.  Its a very nice well designed product.

I think there is a large size and regular size.  I dont know the measurement difference though.

[john e. holliday]

Yes he shows a large and a small handle.  Doesn't give deminsions, but I would think along the lines of the old E-Z Just and Hot Rock.

[Ted Fancher]

Matt,

If you'd like, I'd be happy to give Brett a used "Ted" handle for you to try out.   Might not match the color of your TP but...you can always put a paper bag over it when you're not using it. 

As fast as you build/rebuild you could put together a lifetime supply of these things in about an hour!

Ted

p.s. Ask Brett what he thought about himself when he finally used one I gave him as a gift after carrying it around unused for a year or so!

[Brett Buck]

Matt,

If you'd like, I'd be happy to give Brett a used "Ted" handle for you to try out.   Might not match the color of your TP but...you can always put a paper bag over it when you're not using it. 

   I could even supply the paper bag.

   And; after pooh-poohing the idea for about a year, I felt pretty silly after I finally tried it. A wasted year. Junk the cable handles ASAP, and get a hard-contact handle. More reliable and far better performance.

    Brett

[Chris McMillin]

I couldn't believe the difference. It was "instant" input.
Chris...

[Matt Colan]

Matt,

If you'd like, I'd be happy to give Brett a used "Ted" handle for you to try out.   Might not match the color of your TP but...you can always put a paper bag over it when you're not using it. 

As fast as you build/rebuild you could put together a lifetime supply of these things in about an hour!

Ted

p.s. Ask Brett what he thought about himself when he finally used one I gave him as a gift after carrying it around unused for a year or so!

Hi Ted,

I'll give it a shot. I'll have to try it on Friday when I get there...

I have yet to fly the TP since I repaired it, had heavy winds today and were busy the day before.  Hopefully in the next couple days since I got to get back into shape for a local contest.

[Ted Fancher]

Hi Ted,

I'll give it a shot. I'll have to try it on Friday when I get there...

I have yet to fly the TP since I repaired it, had heavy winds today and were busy the day before.  Hopefully in the next couple days since I got to get back into shape for a local contest.

Just finished digging through my cra....ooops, I mean...my stuff and found the one I used on the old purple TP that won the cup in 2000.  Wrecked it (the purple pond scum...not the handle) shortly thereafter and haven't used it (the handle, not the pond scum, obviously) since. (I still fly the original on my first hand-made Ted handle, by the way. works good and lasts a long time...since about 1994).

The adjustment movement was very stiff from sitting with the plywood compressed on the steel line attachment bars but I cleaned up a few edges and they can be adjusted by hand with a little work...which is as it should be.  The adjustable bars should be a snug fit so that you don't have to apply a lot of torque to the two bolts that lock them in place.

I'll get the handle to you through Brett and you can decide whether you have time to try it out or not.  You're welcome to use it as long as you like although I'd like to get it back at some time just for nostalgia's sake.  To make up for being an Indian giver I think I've got a handfull of kits that Carl gave me as a gift for turning over the design/sales gig to him.  I'll pack one of the kits up and if you think it's the way you want to go put it together and it's yours.

Ted

p.s. I'm going to send the handle with the screws loose and the bars all the way out so that you can adjust it to suit and then tighten it yourself.  Ask Brett to give you a heads up on tightening...it doesn't take Arnold what's-is-name on the wrench to seat them.  Firm but not 'red in the face' is the ticket.  You'll see the trick when you see the handle.

[Matt Colan]

Hi ted,

Thanks! I appreciate it