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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Rafael Gonzalez on January 23, 2012, 09:22:44 AM
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This post is one of those that one tends to say ..."So what? It is progress." But for those like myself, it creates a feeling of nostalgia. And, perhaps, of times fading away.
D>K Over this weekend, I was going over some of my relics that have not been active/flown in a while. I found many engines and planes(R/C) that are not "the click" anymore. About 7-10 years back, I was very active in the Radio Control facet of our hobby. It is amazing how it has changed in just 10 yrs.! Some of the items may not be recognizable to many CL flyers but to some that have done R/C it may. I won't reminisce and fall into nostalgia, but a few are gone or discontinued. Webra, Nelson Q500( supported in parts), MVVS Q500, YS 90, Dynamix carbs, OS 70 Ultimate supercharged, etc., are no longer being supported in the USA (I've searched...). The constant loss of private/public fields, noise complaints, etc., have made it very difficult to fly our models. To join a club in addition to the AMA fees has become an investment. Those are in part why I have abstained from flying R/C. The other is Club politics. Believe it or not, much worse than BOM, PA Judging, Descriptions, etc. LL~ LL~ LL~
Alas! Here comes the advancement of the battery technology! It is incredible the doors that the LyPo/Ion power has opened. In addition, the amount of mixing the latest transmitter has available is infinite. Hence, incredible 3D in aircraft and heli machines. I understand now, why most hobby internet retailers have 75-80% of their advertisement aimed at the electric market. What is going to happen to internal combustion?
Yes, it is funny how the general hobby has evolved since the advent of the ion/lypo batteries. I hope that I, as I may be a dinosaur, do not see gas model engines become obsolete or completely replaced by electric counterparts. I LOVE the smell of Nitro in the mornings. I LOVE the Castor oil on my hands, I LOVE the sound of a 35K engine in FAI combat, I LOVE the sound of a "sparker". I do not get any of those with the electrics. While many now love the electrics, I do not like the buzzing sound as the airplane flies by. I can compare it in a simple analogy:
A gas grill Vs. A charcoal grill. It is convenient to have a gas grill, instant on and ready to cook; electric flight. Charcoal takes a while to come on and cook; gas/fueled flight. I like the flavor of charcoal cooking...
I have a friend that sold all his nitro stunt engines (without me knowing it at the time) for peanuts, and is replacing all the aircraft power with electric. He loves it!
What did I tell him when I found out you ask?
" They day you see me flying a CL electric, shoot me I may be rabid " HB~> HB~> HB~>
H^^
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I too love the smell of the nitro and the sound of the engine breaking from 4 to 2 cycle. The electrics are quiet, and may well be the "future" of control line, but I for one will continue on with IC engines.
Reminds me when the turbine invaded Indy. The car swooshed down the straights eating everything in it's path, while making almost no sound. As I understand it, the Indy powers that be at the time feared the quietness would turn off race fans; and that was one of the main reasons for placing so many restrictions on the turbine . . . so they could get rid of it.
Brian
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I love the smell of electric motor windings in the morning.. ;->
L.
"It does not pay a prophet to be too specific." -L. Sprague de Camp
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I too love the smell of the nitro and the sound of the engine breaking from 4 to 2 cycle. The electrics are quiet, and may well be the "future" of control line, but I for one will continue on with IC engines.
Reminds me when the turbine invaded Indy. The car swooshed down the straights eating everything in it's path, while making almost no sound. As I understand it, the Indy powers that be at the time feared the quietness would turn off race fans; and that was one of the main reasons for placing so many restrictions on the turbine . . . so they could get rid of it.
Brian
Very true, they were so quiet it took the excitement out of it. Sort of like watching a silent film with the background music.
My ears have paid the price of too many 2-stroke engines but I still like the sound of a well tuned one at full speed.
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Development of internal combustion engines is still ongoing, reference a couple posts I made in the 4 stroke section this morning. I really believe if we understood what we do today about 4 strokes a few years ago not only would have seen many more in competition but it would be the engine of choice by many a top competitor.
I was an AT in the navy and spent most of my life playing and working in electronics, one would think I would have been one that would have jumped to electric early in the game, instead I'm playing with 4 strokes and loving the heck out of doing so. As it stands right now my 4 strokes give up nothing to electrics except the oil on the airplane. From the electrics I have observed, my 4 strokes still have a slight advantage in speed control.
Nope not ready to make the jump, that may change and as they make more advancements in battery technology and timer firmware I'm sure electrics will eventually be better than anything we have ever had.
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I love the smell of electric motor windings in the morning.. ;->
L.
"It does not pay a prophet to be too specific." -L. Sprague de Camp
LL~ LL~ LL~
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Electrics have many advantages. But noisy, smell, IC, still dominates the 99% ;). For many good reasons.
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Development of internal combustion engines is still ongoing, reference a couple posts I made in the 4 stroke section this morning. I really believe if we understood what we do today about 4 strokes a few years ago not only would have seen many more in competition but it would be the engine of choice by many a top competitor.
I was an AT in the navy and spent most of my life playing and working in electronics, one would think I would have been one that would have jumped to electric early in the game, instead I'm playing with 4 strokes and loving the heck out of doing so. As it stands right now my 4 strokes give up nothing to electrics except the oil on the airplane. From the electrics I have observed, my 4 strokes still have a slight advantage in speed control.
Nope not ready to make the jump, that may change and as they make more advancements in battery technology and timer firmware I'm sure electrics will eventually be better than anything we have ever had.
Yea, the 4 strokes! I have two Saito 62's sitting in their boxes waiting for a ride. I love the sound and steady pull they have. I believe they are my future.
Brian
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My Fox and my Ringmaster, they comfort me....
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My Fox and my Ringmaster, they comfort me....
Right on, Brother!!! ;)
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Encourage electric flying. We may muster former VP and EPA hero Al Gore to our ranks!
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I think if one could get the figures for R&D on small IC engines vs small electrics, it would turn out that spending is at least a thousand to one in favor of the electrics. There is an awful lot of work being done on power sources for electrics. Use your lipos because they are going to be replaced by something smaller, safer, more powerful, and cheaper in the foreseeable future. S?P
I'm going to stick with glow and diesel. At sometime in the future the only model IC engine available will be the Fox stunt 35. H^^
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I am sticking to glow. I have too much stuff to just ditch it. Besides, electric is very expensive to change over to.
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After saying that I never would, I may make the switch to electric. I know some of my friends won't like it, but there are just too many advantages to ignore any longer.
I won't use E-power for Classic or OT, though. Those planes must smell like castor!
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Also in general the new breed of RC " Park fliers " are a very incompetent lot.
I often visit my local hobby shop and some of the questions the RC "park fliers" as defies beleif.. I think the advent of electric engines for these guys is to try and enable them to "point and shoot"
Like one guy said " Why cant I put mower fuel in, its all fuel " - In todays land of RC ARF, point and click cameras and lack of personal liability to learn new skills, the current modern day modeller is fairly useless. The myiad of new technologies to support them is mindblowing.
Then you have the other end of the scale, guys who are willing to develop and push electric technology and get the most out it, have huge advantages.
Sorry about the rant.. Im sick of current generation of newbie RC Park fliers. I know everyone has to start somewhere but....... Thats why our insurances are through the roof, morons doing the wrong thing due to incompetence.
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My Fox and my Ringmaster, they comfort me....
Well, my Scorpion and my Ringmaster comfort me!!! LL~ LL~ LL~
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The more people move to electrics, the more it will help to keep the price of those awesome Saitos in check! LL~
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One more vote here for Glow and Gas burners. Just the thought of electric powered airplanes is reason to barf ! n~
It's understandable why the newbies and youngsters gather to it. Easy, and cheap to start with and play with. Those of us that grew up with tissue, silkspan, dope, and razor blades, those cardboard parts kits during the WW II era and old time cement glue, well its difficult to let that past slip away.
OTOH when epoxy arrived well Happy Happy! When 5 minute epoxy came on the scene, Oh Boy Heaven has arrived, Then when the first "Hot Stuff" (CA) hit the hobby dealer's shelves well OH BOY, OH BOY, OH BOY!!!
How many shucked those coils, condensers, batteries and spark plugs along with the engine points, when Ray Arden released his little Glow Bug er, ah 'Plug'???
So whatever the reason, the electric and an ARF are a made-in-heaven for the average fellows that have only a jam-packed garage to work in. As a Kid, I well remember building on a large sheet of cardboard and sliding it under the bed when not working on it. Sanding and Paint was done outside, or in the garage which had to be cleaned afterwards.
So the change to electrics is understandable for the strictly HOBBY end of aeromodeling. For the person that likes to be the "IN GUY", well, he too wants to be up with whatever is being marketed as, "You MUST have this latest junk er, ah newest thing. :-\
Thankfully I still love my 2 cycle engines. Sold my OS 1.20 4 stroke long ago. Just recently sold a YS 140 4st. that was new in box after 4 years in a cabinet. Still have a Saito 1.50 (???) Gold head in the cabinet along with many many new 2 cycles from Super Cyclones to I don't even know what is the latest. I have a number of 2 cycle gas burners that have never had a prop on them. Actually I have way too much for the years remaining, and here I am wasting time on a dad-burned computer.
~> HB~>
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From a well known person, I was told that biggest advantage to electric is to be able to go fly while every one else is asleep. Even in our park system, no running of IC engines before 0900, even with the best muffler available. I now know of several planes that are pay, assemble and fly for control line. I just need to get the $$$$$. H^^
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One senior member of a UK distributor says that as far as he is concerned........"glow is dead".
That may be so, I much prefer diesels, however I feel somewhat sad to think that IC engines are rapidly becoming a thing of the past. A feeling I had when steam power was announced as dead on our railways. One of sadness that really hurt. Now there is steam all over the railway system and paying enthusiasts are making economic sense to repair and even build new steam locomotives.
Perhaps there will be a resurgence in IC power, I doubt it though, too much money to be made in instant electric kit. I have more than enough stuff to keep me going until I am too old to fly. There will always be a hard core of people that like the old ways best!
Given the choice of flying electric or nothing, I would take the nothing option. Minature IC engines are the real interest for me, get rid of that aspect of our hobby and there is little left for me.
Andrew.
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As hobbiest engaged in leisure time activity I choose to build what ever I want and power it however I want. I also will choose what parts of the package I want to tinker with and which parts I do not wish to bother with. I enjoy getting airplanes to fly well. I couldn't care less about messing with engines. However, I do not care to impose my will on others who interpret their leisure time activities diferently than me, and I will celebrate with my modeling brothers & sisters...
When I am in the Living Room sitting on my "Lazy-Dennis" chair I miss glow engines; the sound, the smell and the how my hands feel with castor oil on them. When I am at the flying field I do not miss them at all; not the noise, not the stench, and espcially not the grease.
The idea that a Nobler with a ST 46 is somehow more "authentic" than a Nobler with an AXI is just plain silly. Regardless of what happens at VSC or elsewhere, I choose to power my OTS, Classics, Nos 30 or what ever else how I see fit. I enjoy flying and watching the old designs fly again - and dearly want to fly at VSC some day. Heck with the power systems!
One of my favorite airplanes is Bob Zambelli's Viking with an OK 60 running with period ignition system. However, I will never have one like that! A Viking with an Arrowind 2820 - NOW YOUR TALKING! Lets see how that old warrior can FLY!
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" I choose to power my OTS, Classics, Nos 30 or what ever else how I see fit. "
I hear you loud and clear... ~>
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I've hardly moved out of sparkers yet, let alone glow. I still love the sounds and smells of an old sparker in either control line or free flight with a radio. Granted, it is a bit more of a challenge some days, but that is what makes it fun to me. I have taken advantage of the new battery tech. to a point. I will probably try the latest thing when the chargers get down in price. I am also starting to fly more with gasoline and 60wt. Harley oil as fuel costs rise. I do see how guys can really go for electric though, and they will most likely take over in a few short years. Guess I am just old school. Thinking back over my many years of modeling, I have always built and flown what I thought I would enjoy, rather than what would win. I did try to win at every contest I flew in, just with what I was flying at the time. And I am an engine guy at heart, and mostly just find a design that will work with a certain engine, rather than building a plane and then finding an engine for it.
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I maintain a healthy respect for electric flying. I'm flying a large electric stunter that is quite capable of good contest performance. I'm still a bit unhappy with the weight penalty of batteries, although the LiPo technology is going in the right direction.
In a few years I'm hoping that battery tech will improve, along with prices.
Floyd
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Electrics are, apparently, here to stay....
The season ending contest in Palisades Prak, NJ saw the top FOUR experts flying battery powered stuff...
I have judged many e-flights, and personally think that they lack "drive" in places....
I do think that the idea that the controllers can change motor output at stratigic places during the flight is in clear violation of the rules....I would imagine that there would be huge outcry it those same controllers were hooked to a servo that governed an IC engine's carbrurator?
Have fun!
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The idea that a Nobler with a ST 46 is somehow more "authentic" than a Nobler with an AXI is just plain silly.
I have been making that point for years. People go on and on about sacred past "the way it really was" as they fire up their Nobler w/Aero Tiger 36 and a graphite prop. If I was king of the world, I would change the Classic rules to limit ONLY the engine to those available and commonly used at the time (stock Fox/McCoy/Forster, 35's etc) and wood props, and let people design whatever airplane they wanted to. If anybody came up with an airplane significantly different that what was flown at the time, it would probably be a mistake.
I also don't understand the tendency of people to latch on to a particular approach and then hold on to it like grim death, and get upset when someone does something else. It like that with Fox 35s, ST60s, "Schneurle of the Month" engines, 4-strokes, and now you see it with piped engines and electrics. It's like they have something about their egos invested, something like "Fox 35s are MY thing, I will defend it to the end" regardless of the actual pros and cons, and regardless of the individual's ability to tell the difference. About once a month I still get questions about "how do I modify my 40VF for a "real stunt run"? "as if the last 25 years never happened.
The world marches on. I see no good reason not to take advantage of the changes, evaluate the latest thing, and see if it will work. If 90% of people are flying electric in 5 years, so what?
Brett
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I do think that the idea that the controllers can change motor output at stratigic places during the flight is in clear violation of the rules....I would imagine that there would be huge outcry it those same controllers were hooked to a servo that governed an IC engine's carbrurator?
What rule does that break (paragraph number and quote)? Oh, right, no rule at all, and you are pulling that out of your posterior. In AMA you can hook up all the controllers you want, there's absolutely no rule against it. In FAI it is currently clearly allowed on electrics, and there is a "proposal" to allow it on IC engines since there was never any valid reason to ban it there, either.
I would also note that your idol did indeed hook a servo up to a RC carb, and ran it with a IR controller, and no one gave a damn about that. I might also add that he frequently landed with the engine running, which might have been arguably against the rules, and not one cared about that, either.
Brett
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Idol?
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Electric offers plenty of advantages. Mike Palko's set ups never seems at a loss for power. Also. Very reliable. Most folks are using IC, still, far as I can tell. In our club 2 or 3 out of 30 or so who fly regularly use electric birds. That's with Mike right here ready to design/assemble all kinds of systems that will work plug and play. The initial outlay of cash for charger and what not is probably one reason most of us have not shifted over. The challenge of IC, also a fascination, a kind of addiction. Like all you out there who continue to peck away at crashing PCs when MACs work no fuss or muss. <= LA46s, FPs, and so forth, can be had real cheap at fleas. Or if you fly with us, we give away this and that. Not reached that level of hording with the buzzy but quiet battery powered blahh blahh.
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Just to make it plain, I don't really care what people use, be it glow diesel spak or modern electric. Each to their own and I am not trying to stop the clock at some particular time in control line flying. I am a qualified electrical and electronic engineer and I delight in building electronic circuitry.
I simply like flying control line planes with IC and will be very sad when that is no longer possible. I have dabbled in electric free flight for small planes a good few years ago, so I am not anti electric, I just like some form of IC engine up front when flying control line.
As Brett said, he doesn't think that a Nobler with an aerotiger upfront is particularly authentic and neither do I. I wouldn't fly that combination and neither do I want to fly electric control line, just my take on the subject. By all means let others do what they want!
Andrew.
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I am sticking to glow. I have too much stuff to just ditch it. Besides, electric is very expensive to change over to.
SAME HERE :o
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Speaking from a CL scale point of view I am considering projects that I never would have considered if I had to use glow engines. I still fly glow power and currently have one CL scale model with an electric motor. All of my projects I have planned or under construction will be electric power. At the FCM contest in Muncie last Aug there were several electric powered CL scale models.
For CL scale we use electronic controls instead of the timer and then the normal speed control, battery and motor so that we have throttle control. You can use Clancy Arnold's system and send the signal and ground down the flying lines. The older JR DSC radio control units also make a great system for CL electronic controls.
Fred Cronenwett
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Most of us do not compete at the highest level in stunt. We're enthusiasts. Not having gone professional. (Joke.) Nor are we flying for endorsements, sneaker contracts and the like or the PR. Most of us are still paying for props, fuel, room and board. I love going out there in decent weather sharing my dreams (still have them-- also a joke) and day to day upsets with the motley curmudgeons. IC works very well in the setting. Adding a familiar noise and stink (a smell from childhood-- smell is the most direct sense, going directly to the brain, in this case triggering all kinds of pleasant associations to the time when I was free of all manner of aches and pains). Improving my score in CL Stunt competition is a humorous idea. Forgoing the potential advantage of the electric buzz in no way a priority.
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Going back to the first post by Rafael, I sure can identify with what he said. Heck I was weened on Power Mist, and in my youth purchased Missle Mist by the 55 gal. drum. I to love the smell of 2 strokes running on glow fuel in the morning. And having participated in FAI T/R for a few years I have a soft spot for the diesel fuel aroma also. Yes those smells are wonderful to my nostrils. And I'm just talking about the smells. Then there are the SOUNDS ! The hearing loss I have today is a result of those sounds, but what fantastic sounds they were. Nothing like an open stack A Speed job or a 3 up Rat Race with KB 40s roaring ! And then there was the sound of a good AMA Fast Combat match with 2 honking 35s. And having recently returned to round & round flying I chose to go electric and will probably stay there. But I can stimulate my memories of years past when at the local club field acting as pit man for a fellow club member who is flying his glow engined stunter. I just have to remember to keep a rag in my pocket just like I did for 50 + yrs. when I was flying glow, so I can clean the oil slime off my hands afterwards. Some of us maybe still fly ignition engines with their mystique and appeal. They were faded away by the time I came to the scene. I guess the reason was performance gains with the glow engines. And now it's electric. Rumor has it that there again is a performance gain to be had. Time will tell. It doesn't change the sounds and smells of my past that I loved so much. I still remember them. Only thing it does is eliminate the washing and drying of the oil soaked rags every so often. Don't think I'll miss that part. Just don't know what I'm going to do with all the fuel tanks I've accumulated, and then there are the glow plugs to sell off. But hey it was all fun. Way, way fun. And I'm still having fun with my electric stunters. So I don't have any problem at all, except me !
Dan
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One fear of investing in high tech gear like electrics is that in a couple of years, the batteries, charger, esc, etc technology would change, making the initial investment worthless, with parts either not available, or the whole works obsolete, like brushed motors are now.
An analogy would be if one bought a new PC about 20 years ago, which was obsolete in little more than a year.
I am simply waiting and watching, likely for a few more years. 8)
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First off, you guys are not looking at companies like O.S., who has invested heavily in their AX line of 2 strokes and even more so, in their 4 stroke blue heads. They even have a new line of 4 strokes that are a rip-off of the Saitos-imitation is. A complete revamp of your whole engine line cost serious moolah.
Saito is revamping their radial line, (verrry expensive to do) and is pushing relentlessly into gassers. Their Saito 40A, is becoming a hit in the RC car buggy market. A lot of cats seem to remember how Enya took care of them years ago, and are rewarding them accordingly. YS, which should be the hardest, hit, is still doing quite well with their 70,110, and 140 sport line and surprisingly, has a strong following in the RC helicopter market. The last F3A world championships saw the T-shirt contaminators kick serious booty with a 1st and 2nd place.
The Saito Forum at RCU has reached a million views and over 21,000 replies. The situation has gotten so bad over there, that the guy who started the Saito club forum, has abandoned it, and gone over to another Saito forum
Evolution Engines is doing a gangbuster business in RC and apparently, from what I can ascertain here, control line motors as well. Apparently, they also see money to be made, by jumping on Saito’s radial motor action, with a price-point line of their own. Lets not forget the incredible popularity of the DLE and Desert Aircraft brand of motors, among the big plane crowd. The SAP Syssa 180 also has been very well received, and doing well in what is, a very competitive segment.
There is a growing movement, albeit small right now, to converting electric RC ships to glow. More and more stick twiddlers are becoming enchanted by Senior, (our Classic) RC Pattern. This event is primarily I.C,. although they do allow electrics. But that’s like showing up at a contest with a Nobler that has a tune pipe on it. It is also spawning quite a cottage kit business.
In our neck of the woods, so far, every time the top electric flyer has gone up against the top I.C. man, he has come up second. In addition, need I remind you, that our current World F2B Champion not only won with an I.C., but with a motor that was supposedly considered to be obsolete.
Going back to F3A, what is going to put the nail in the coffin for the I.C. motor, is not the motor, it is the prop. That’s right, if you have been following them as I do, then you know that the contra-rotating prop is being hailed as the next great advance in RC Pattern. Glows can’t turn contra props effectively. That said, what happens in top-level F3A, does not translate to the sport flyer on Sunday. He is too busy burning holes in the sky with his Saito 72 and 125’s.
Like in most things, economics will ultimately decide matters. If the cost of glow fuel continues to skyrocket, and the efficiency and cost of electric batteries continue to improve, then of course, the outcome is obvious.
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One fear of investing in high tech gear like electrics is that in a couple of years, the batteries, charger, esc, etc technology would change, making the initial investment worthless, with parts either not available, or the whole works obsolete, like brushed motors are now.
An analogy would be if one bought a new PC about 20 years ago, which was obsolete in little more than a year.
I am simply waiting and watching, likely for a few more years. 8)
Electric power system do not become obsolete year to year regardless of what people say. In fact, the original power system I used at the 04 Nats may still be one of the best systems money can buy in 2012.
I'm not trying to convince anyone to convert to electric, I am just stating a fact.
Mike
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I see where OS has released a bunch of electric motors....are they any good?
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Looking at this laterally I see that the source of the power really isn't the issue here, its the way that its managed.
If any I.C. engine had an engine management system on board that approached half of what is available in cars then this topic may not be an issue.
And by 'management' I mean the total package -
1. Noise, come on now, we have still in use virtually straight through pipes or those abominations, tongue mufflers and no attempts at all at designing I.C. engines that reduce internal noise. (Speaking of noise, electric flight has proved to me that much of it really IS the prop and engine independent.) And liquid filled jackets as a dampener, don't laugh - it is possible to do.
2. Fuel metering systems run by chips much like Y.S. fourstrokes use, wouldn't be too hard to extend on those to get a far more constant run whilst operating further up the power curve. This would probably will mean smaller engine capacity could be used as a consequence to offset any weight penalty for the proposed management systems. Fuel pumps and injection, again all possible.
3. Ignition systems, obviously sparkers come to mind here.
But I personally do not want my engine runs 'managed' by anything active and much prefer the passive set on the ground and hope its right in the air type of thing.
In short, I would like to think the model hanging out there was wholly operated by me and not helped along with any 'automatic gearbox' of an engine.
If it does come to pass that electric is the only viable option open then I would most likely opt out of the hobby and go play an ultimate gizmo like an X box.
(If you can't beat electric based technology then you might as go the whole hog and really join it!)
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I was talking to a flyer recently, he switched to electric, he sold a brand new PA 61 for $600.00, so there is still a demand for these engines. :!
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This post is one of those that one tends to say ..."So what? It is progress." But for those like myself, it creates a feeling of nostalgia. And, perhaps, of times fading away.
D>K Over this weekend, I was going over some of my relics that have not been active/flown in a while. I found many engines and planes(R/C) that are not "the click" anymore. About 7-10 years back, I was very active in the Radio Control facet of our hobby. It is amazing how it has changed in just 10 yrs.! Some of the items may not be recognizable to many CL flyers but to some that have done R/C it may. I won't reminisce and fall into nostalgia, but a few are gone or discontinued. Webra, Nelson Q500( supported in parts), MVVS Q500, YS 90, Dynamix carbs, OS 70 Ultimate supercharged, etc., are no longer being supported in the USA (I've searched...). The constant loss of private/public fields, noise complaints, etc., have made it very difficult to fly our models. To join a club in addition to the AMA fees has become an investment. Those are in part why I have abstained from flying R/C. The other is Club politics. Believe it or not, much worse than BOM, PA Judging, Descriptions, etc. LL~ LL~ LL~
Alas! Here comes the advancement of the battery technology! It is incredible the doors that the LyPo/Ion power has opened. In addition, the amount of mixing the latest transmitter has available is infinite. Hence, incredible 3D in aircraft and heli machines. I understand now, why most hobby internet retailers have 75-80% of their advertisement aimed at the electric market. What is going to happen to internal combustion?
Yes, it is funny how the general hobby has evolved since the advent of the ion/lypo batteries. I hope that I, as I may be a dinosaur, do not see gas model engines become obsolete or completely replaced by electric counterparts. I LOVE the smell of Nitro in the mornings. I LOVE the Castor oil on my hands, I LOVE the sound of a 35K engine in FAI combat, I LOVE the sound of a "sparker". I do not get any of those with the electrics. While many now love the electrics, I do not like the buzzing sound as the airplane flies by. I can compare it in a simple analogy:
A gas grill Vs. A charcoal grill. It is convenient to have a gas grill, instant on and ready to cook; electric flight. Charcoal takes a while to come on and cook; gas/fueled flight. I like the flavor of charcoal cooking...
I have a friend that sold all his nitro stunt engines (without me knowing it at the time) for peanuts, and is replacing all the aircraft power with electric. He loves it!
What did I tell him when I found out you ask?
" They day you see me flying a CL electric, shoot me I may be rabid " HB~> HB~> HB~>
H^^
I may have been misunderstood by my poor writing... My objection is not the electrics vs. IC engines. Anyone has a choice, by all means, how they pursue their hobby. IT IS A HOBBY! H^^
My opinion is that, we continue being spoon fed by marketing/retail on what the current trend "becomes the new".
I am glad that we have choices. I am not happy that 75-90% of well known web/local retailers carry/advertise less of the "conventional identity" of our hobby (kits, IC engines, etc.). I can go to the local R/C club I used to belong to, and find that out of 10-15 guys at the field, most are doing e-helis/planes. Only 1-2 were flying IC. And that was 4-cy! The LHS's around here are carrying very little aircraft kits. A few, have a decrepit stock of RTF 3D, trainers, etc. A LOT of RTF electric stuff though...
I hope that we are not being led on the wrong path by profits for suppliers. Li is a very dangerous element. They claim that it is recyclable. That doesn't mean is Eco friendly. It meas that you dispose of it responsibly. . If one crashes or dents a Lipo/ion battery, it is not supposed to be used. An IC using methanol/Castor poses no harm to nature. Both are generated organically. They claim that it is cheaper to run an electric as opposed to the cost of fuel. Not if you need to replace them after 3-4 years, a crash or if the circuitry fails to stop the discharge.
I wanted to bring light into the "pushing" of our retailers. I agree with PJ and some others. The market is attracting more and more incompetence by the sale of R/C RTF e-kits and components. In the past, one could not sell/buy a RTF IC engine kit without having to be in a club and join AMA. Now, anyone can get a e-kit with FSST. No need to check your Freq. No need to belong anywhere. Just go and fly. If the worse happens, it REFLECTS on ALL of us. We are all clumped together. R/C and everything else.
So, I am not against the electrics. I am against it being pushed by marketing and their claims. Look at all the pros and cons for whatever fancies you. Me, I am "old fashioned" and a puritan...
H^^
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I was talking to a flyer recently, he switched to electric, he sold a brand new PA 61 for $600.00, so there is still a demand for these engines. :!
But you can't get parts. A friend of mine bought a used PA 75 for allot of money only to discover it needed a P&L. Now all he has is an expensive chunk of metal.
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I know that electrics are efficient but, try to find one that can match the pure romance of something like this. ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3pLk8cMSLI&feature=related
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I made the switch from gas to electric about a year ago, and haven't looked back since. The only gas I fly is Old Time and Sparky at VSC. (Uncle Mikey threatens to hang anybody with an electric). I love to go to the park with my wife and fly all I want and nobody complains, in fact I have had a cop park and watch us with no problems. People often stop to watch they actually smile and tell us how much the enjoy it. You can romance all you want about gas but my future is in electric. I too have a bag full of engines dating back to 1962 just collecting dust, I have given some away and sold or traded others.
That's the long answer to the original question the short answer is "yes".
Andy
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Hay Ralph you opened a big can of worms.
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Have you ever heard a Harley Davidson start up and drive away? There is no other sound like it.
Have you ever heard a Supertiger 60 start up and fly away? There is no other like it.
Electric is just another hobby and by the time you get all set up you have spent thousands. H^^
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An IC using methanol/Castor poses no harm to nature. Both are generated organically.
So are cobra venom, shellfish toxin, and opium. Castor oil is poisonous to the insects that moles eat. That gives me something to do with all the castor oil I don't need anymore.
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. . . The only gas I fly is Old Time and Sparky at VSC. (Uncle Mikey threatens to hang anybody with an electric).
While there's a degree of truth in that statement, Uncle Mikey has had no say in VSC matters since 2003, when we turned the whole thing over to the local club. It would be Lou Wolgast & Robin Sizemore with the hangman's noose....assuming they'd be so inclined. y1
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Electric is just another hobby and by the time you get all set up you have spent thousands. H^^
Rubbish!!!!
Motor $50, 4 batteries $200, charger $100, ESC $90, timer $12, prop $5.....that's it!!.... Under $500!
If you go higher quality....Motor $200, 4 batteries $360, (Charger, ESC, prop and timer are the same) ....... Under $800!
I switched from using a PA75 to electric and will NEVER go back! ;D
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Rubbish!!!!
Motor $50, 4 batteries $200, charger $100, ESC $90, timer $12, prop $5.....that's it!!.... Under $500!
If you go higher quality....Motor $200, 4 batteries $360, (Charger, ESC, prop and timer are the same) ....... Under $800!
I switched from using a PA75 to electric and will NEVER go back! ;D
What if one has 4 or 5 models? $2,500 to $3,000 then, unless the batteries are interchangeable between models?
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I have three models and I use the same type of motor and the same batteries.
If you have different models needing different batteries, it is only the batteries that are the extra cost.
Batteries are not expensive anymore and you only need the one charger.
If you have three models, the glow motor cost would be between $100 and $600 for each model.
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yes yes ... sound is important LL~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnGX5jL-lhg
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At the FCM contest in Muncie last year there was an interesting reaction from more just one person in the CL scale competition. I arrived with one electric model and two glow powered. another person had a mixture, Grant was completely electric. There were at least 2 or 3 other guys with electric power. After all of the competition was done several of us were saying that next year our entire fleet of models would be electric powered. While everyone will not convert to electric I have found that most people that try an electric model, then find themselves converting within 2 years to electric.
As for the scale sound I have yet to find a four stroke or glow engine that sounds like a radial engine, I don't worry about the sound realism.
I have several motors ranging in size from a 10 (3S) and the 60 sized motor that takes a 6S. By using a combination of batteries you can have a limited amount of batteries that can be used on all models regardless of the size. put two 3S together to make a 6S, or take three 2S and make a 6S, you get the idea. The batteries I get flown in almost all of the airplanes, I just make up different combinations to match the power needed.
All of my current projects and the ones I have planned will be powered by electric power and they will use the batteries I already have. I guess I have converted to electric power.
Fred C.
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Rubbish!!!!
Motor $50, 4 batteries $200, charger $100, ESC $90, timer $12, prop $5.....that's it!!.... Under $500!
If you go higher quality....Motor $200, 4 batteries $360, (Charger, ESC, prop and timer are the same) ....... Under $800!
I switched from using a PA75 to electric and will NEVER go back! ;D
That is it? One electric engine = $500? For a good e-engine $800?
LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
What about the electric replacement for an Evo 61, ST60, LA46, etc.? I won the Evo 61 in here and I can not be more delighted with it (as read in the posts from others) The performance and ease of adapting it to your style of flying is incredible.
Well, it is good if many like that e-stuff... Some of us can't afford the expense and we still enjoy the conventional method (good old IC) I hope that we will always have the option to choose IC engines to power our projects. Did not intend to generate a can of worms, just a thought to bring a point of view... H^^
H^^
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For those who are interested in e- expenses, consider this. I fly an E-15 powered Bob Hunt designed RD-1 profile stunter with two 4s 2700 Mah packs. I also fly an SV-11 ARC with two 4S 3900 packs . The SV-11 is approaching 80 flights and the RD-1e is just shy of 50 flights. Both planes were new for the 2011 season. I am also able to extend my day to 4 flights on the SV-11 by using the 2700 Mah packs; simply by reducing the flight time to 4:45 minutes. When I fly the 2700s in the SV-11, I use a separate battery mount( simple 1/8" light ply sleave designed by Bob Hunt). I've added stick-on weights to make it the equivalent weight of the mount with the 3900 packs.
I know some guys want to fly 8 or 10 flights and that is possible with an on site charger or more batteries. But this system spreads the expense between multiple aircraft that are considerably different- one spans 48" and weighs under 40 ounces RTF, the other spans 60" + and weighs 68.4 RTF. BTW, my next ship( full fuse and projected to be under 48 ounces- RTF) for 2012 will use the same 2700 packs and maybe I'll buy one more. With proper care , the battery manufacturers are saying "hundreds of cycles" . I have no reason to doubt this as my cell evaluations performed by my charger and Watts Up Meter are showing that they are just as robust now as when they were new.
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That is it? One electric engine = $500? For a good e-engine $800?
I seem to remember Paul Walker telling me that given the lifetime of the batteries compared to how much glow fuel you might use, it turned out to be a wash as far as cost goes.
In your comparison it's more like comparing the cost of the motor, batteries, etc. to an an engine and all the fuel you will use. Think of it as buying the fuel up front instead of over 3 years.
Brett
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Brett,
Does this mean that in the near future we can call you "High Voltage Brett"???
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Don't underestimate the electrical conspiracy. They already have a full-court press to convert Brett: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_converter
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Yes Howard, but if done under duress, it may be more likely the Buck-Boost Converter scenario... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck-boost_converter
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Don't underestimate the electrical conspiracy. They already have a full-court press to convert Brett: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_converter
LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
Good one.
As they say in text grammar these days...
ROFLMAO
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Yes Howard, but if done under duress, it may be more likely the Buck-Boost Converter scenario... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck-boost_converter
I stand in awe of the brilliant sh^H^H wit displayed in this thread.
Brett
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As for the scale sound I have yet to find a four stroke or glow engine that sounds like a radial engine, I don't worry about the sound realism.
Fred C.
I have seen R/C scale electrics with onboard speakers that make the proper sounds of in-line and radial engines, following the throttle.
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I have seen R/C scale electrics with onboard speakers that make the proper sounds of in-line and radial engines, following the throttle.
Time to get some very good recordings of 2/4 break - it's only a matter of time before this trend hits CL Stunt! ;->
(those little heli gyros could provide a "maneuvering" signal to trigger it..)
We'll eventually have the Veneer of Stunt perfected.
L.
"To win without risk is to triumph without glory." -Pierre Corneille
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Time to get some very good recordings of 2/4 break - it's only a matter of time before this trend hits CL Stunt! ;->
(those little heli gyros could provide a "maneuvering" signal to trigger it..)
We'll eventually have the Veneer of Stunt perfected.
L.
"To win without risk is to triumph without glory." -Pierre Corneille
Larry,
Don't forget the "Pre mixing" and "Conditions Set" like in F3A. Were also going to need "Split Deployed" rudders and "Variable Independent" incident stabs. H^^
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I for one kinda' like this electric stuff, but at 65 and recently retired - I've a liftetime invested in r/c and control-line geared around glow motors. What to do - as I still have a bit of health I'm going to enjoy what I've collected and enjoy others in this hobby however they want to do it. There is room for all. The way I see it. This forum has introduced me to a lot of good folk that I'll probably never meet this side of glory and I appreciate you all. Nick
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I am with Lester on this. I still may wind up with an electric just for fun. #^
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It's ALL fun. We'd be total fools not to enjoy it.
L.
"My hopes are not always realized, but I always hope." -Ovid
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It's ALL fun. We'd be total fools not to enjoy it.
L.
"My hopes are not always realized, but I always hope." -Ovid
Concurred. 010!
I hope that I get to meet some of the folks in here someday... I've never stopped learning. Nor will I. Folks in here have contributed quite a many lessons for me. And I thought I knew a bit...
H^^
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Next we will have fifteen inch Woofers and CD Changers for you Electric Craft. LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
Think I'll stick with my Nobler and Brodak .40
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All jokes aside, I belive there is plenty of room in this Control Line Sport for Combustion Engines and Electric Motors.
It is all about having some fun and helping a new generation understand what it is where so fastenated with. H^^
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Needless to say, there's room in the hobby for any kind of powerplant,(except for Larry Renger's-stuff just joking). I've got a little electric RC ship designed to use an AXI 30 size motor, that I intend to whip up.
My plan is to bust out the Futaba six AXI RC, in the morning when the wind is calm,and switch to my "big block" control line stunt ship later on in the day for a full day of raucous behavior. All in the same local!!
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No. Lipo Power is not taking over.
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No. Lipo Power is not taking over.
Reassuring, coming from a homeboy of the Instigator.
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Judging only from the stories I have read on here and other fora, there are models lost from electrics quitting unexpectedly, just like there are models lost from IC engines doing the same, so reliability may not be as much of an advantage as some believe.
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Mike Palko will set any of us Philly Flyers up with an electric system that works reliably, is durable and well matched to the chosen plane. Not cheap, but quality. Jack Weston so far is the only member who's taken him up on his generous offer of assistance. Jack's electric Vector performed well over the years. Better than his IC systems. Even tho the components used were an early iteration of electric stunt. Quality will out. . One fellow has a Chinese electric set up that works pretty well. Needing maintenance and assembly/reassembly now and then. Cheap by current standards. Mike's configurations way more reliable and durable. Tom Hampshire flies electric with Bob Hunt in public parks without a fuss from the public. Most of Tom's planes are still IC. I have heard that Joe Adamusko's next plane will be electric. That's it. But for the most part our club persists in its rituals, loyal to the IC stink and the frequently irascible temperaments. Ours and the engines that we like.
Dan Banjok's new Stunt War Wagon will be PA75 powered. Among Dan's menagerie of flyers is a Drone Diesel powered Flea Market Unnameable with balloon tires; a double sized BiSlob (all the dimensions double, so, is that 4 times the volume, or 8?) powered by, I think, a 2 cubic inch Supertigre; a pulse jet aluminum MIG. On any given fly day, Dan's van is stuffed with believe it or not winged creations. Almost all powered by (sort of) controlled explosions. A few powered by rubber bands. Last Saturday, Shawn and Ken, father and son, flew a number rounds of BiSlob combat. Fox 35 power. Ted Heinrich's planes are of dubious origin and appearance. All IC. Down the list. We have members who run diesels. At times some of us have been into 4 strokes. Lately some of our members have been seduced by the cult of Phil Cartier. All kinds of foamies. Big ones, little ones, powered by all manner of IC. Ranging from TDs, to Mark V Combat Specials, to serious Flora and Nelson engines.
Almost all of us fly in stunt competition at one level or another. We know electric is more reliable, easier to tune and adjust, not that much more expensive in the long haul, a big time plus with the civilian public. So. So what. We're not letting factors like that interfere with our fun.
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Judging only from the stories I have read on here and other fora, there are models lost from electrics quitting unexpectedly, just like there are models lost from IC engines doing the same, so reliability may not be as much of an advantage as some believe.
Reliability depends on the people and how they maintain their equipment. I am lax at times on some of my equipment. So I can't blame the equipment, only myself. I beleive I would have to be more concientious using electric equipment. H^^
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Mike Palko will set any of us Philly Flyers up with an electric system that works reliably, is durable and well matched to the chosen plane. Not cheap, but quality. Jack Weston so far is the only member who's taken him up on his generous offer of assistance. Jack's electric Vector performed well over the years. Better than his IC systems. Even tho the components used were an early iteration of electric stunt. Quality will out. But for the most part our club persists in its rituals, loyal to the IC stink and the frequently irascible temperaments. Ours and the engines that we like. One fellow has a Chinese electric set up that works pretty well. Needing maintenance and assembly/reassembly now and then. Cheap by current standards. Mike's configurations way more reliable and durable. Tom Hampshire flies electric with Bob Hunt in public parks without a fuss from the public. Most of Tom's planes are still IC. I have heard that Joe Adamusko's next plane will be electric. That's it.
Dan Banjok's new Stunt War Wagon will be PA75 powered. Among Dan's menagerie of flyers is a Drone Diesel powered Flea Market Unnameable with balloon tires; a double sized BiSlob (all the dimensions double, so, is that 4 times the volume, or 8?) powered by, I think, a 2 cubic inch Supertigre; a pulse jet aluminum MIG. On any given fly day, Dan's van is stuffed with believe it or not winged creations. Almost all powered by (sort of) controlled explosions. A few powered by rubber bands. Last Saturday, Shawn and Ken, father and son, flew a number rounds of BiSlob combat. Fox 35 power. Ted Heinrich's planes are of dubious origin and appearance. All IC. Down the list. We have members who run diesels. At times some of us have been into 4 strokes. Lately some of our members have been seduced by the cult of Phil Cartier. All kinds of foamies. Big ones, little ones, powered by all manner of IC. Ranging from TDs, to Mark V Combat Specials, to serious Flora and Nelson engines.
Almost all of us fly in stunt competition at one level or another. We know electric is more reliable, easier to tune and adjust, not that much more expensive in the long haul, a big time plus with the civilian public. So. So what. We're not letting factors like that interfere with our fun.
I think what Dennis is TRYING to say is "do what YOU enjoy". I forgot what thread I was reading after all of that! n~
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I was trying to describe what the Philly flyers actually do. Often sticking with weirdness, usually IC weirdness. It's not about practicality or the ultimate effectiveness of an approach. (Mike is also a player here, flying non electric weird stuff, such as formation flying the pattern with Dan, using FP40 powered ARFs. Also, Mike has been known to gleefully wingover flea market Ringmasters straight in. Including the winningest Ringmaster of all time. Shocking! ) Honestly, I dunno why we don't make the switch to electric. Since in many ways electric works better. For reasons I stated above. Mike's first electric experiments were in the spirit of Philly flyers weirdness, by the way. His first attempt a nicad 1/2a project was a hoot. Very funny. More a whip flyer than anything else. The nicad Twister (I think it was nicad) however, did the pattern on shorter than normal lines. The Silencer his first Lipo bird was clearly competitive from the get go. Mike looks like an All American Norman Rockwell painting. A straight arrow. Do not be fooled. Madness lurks behind the blush. I assert that Mike Palko created his electric insurgency out of a love of the weird and novel. Now it is a model of practicality and effectiveness. Oh well. His electric Mustang, 19 points at the NATs. A top ten finisher in the big show. This is going too far... Then there is the issue of the best in stunt now doing like Mike... ;) Not us. Not the Philly Flyers. I'd burn my Philly Flyers hat first (or wash it.) ;D (Obviously this is serious business, I'm using emoticons.) :) :) :) :) ;) ;) >:D n1 ~^ :## JOKING!
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I was trying to describe what the Philly flyers actually do. Often sticking with weirdness, usually IC weirdness. It's not about practicality or the ultimate effectiveness of an approach.
This is IMHO, the best statement made on this thread. We do what we do, because it is FUN! Heck, motorcycles are dangerous. But, they sell a zillion of them, and if you've ever have ridden one, you'll know why!!
Stunt flyers are an EXTREMELY conservative group, (don’t think so, look back to Al Rabe when he tried to break in with his Semi Scales) and get the willies when new tech comes along. But we always forget, that the genius imbedded in this event is, it always comes down to who wiggles the handle in the right way at the right time.
If I had to state the ONE major advance in powerplants from the time I first picked up the handle as child, it would be the transition to the Supertigre 60. A good ST 60 in the hands of somebody that knows what he is doing can stop still ANYTHING in the world today COLD. After that, it just whatever floats your boat.
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A good ST 60 in the hands of somebody that knows what he is doing can stop still ANYTHING in the world today COLD. .
Three years ago I would have agreed 10000% with that statement, then I flew an electric.
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I don't know, after flying electric for the last 6 years or so, I could not see myself going back down to something that only had the amount of power a ST .60 has. We have so much more available and it works so well, I would not go back.
But electric is fun for me as well. Its precision and duplicability from flight to flight just fits in with what I am willing to put up with. I don't deal well with things changing all the time. I do better with things that are consistant and that I can test against the same constant time and time again to find what detail works best for me. I cannot (emphasis on the "I" cause I know there are people who can) achieve that with glow. As to sound, I have yet to find a silent electric. They make a considerable amount of noise. Props are noisy. They create an amazing amount of the noise we associate with a glow motor. Between RC and CL I have over 30 glow motors. Only 3 will ever be run by me again and when their planes die, so will they. But I sure am having a lot more fun than I ever did before. I agree, you need to use what makes it fun for you.
bob branch
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A good ST 60 in the hands of somebody that knows what he is doing can stop still ANYTHING in the world today COLD. .
Three years ago I would have agreed 10000% with that statement, then I flew an electric.
That statement may or may not be true, but it can still be said for a PA. S?P
And, maybe that isn't even true. Like Proparc said it comes down to who wiggles the handle, not what pulls the plane.
IC will always be around unless the manufacturers of key components disappear (engines, fuel, glow plugs) and that is a long way off IMO. Even then I would expect cottage industries or hobbyists in general to keep them alive.
Mike
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A good ST 60 in the hands of somebody that knows what he is doing can stop still ANYTHING in the world today COLD. .
Three years ago I would have disagreed with that statement. Then an ST .60 won the World Championship.
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Electric power will probably take over competition flying in 5 or 10 years. (maybe sooner)
It will take a lot longer to take over sport flying. (and most people are sport flyers)
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Manufactures follow the money trail. With Cl not even being 95% of the market we should not assume that there will always be IC engines produced. Keep an eye on our AMA rag and watch what is happening. Watch tower catalog has to. As we see more and more electric's we should see less and less IC'S. Notice that OS MAX is producing electrics. I will also point out that Elactrics are much easier to produce and the equipment to do it is less. IC engines are a work of art but very expensive to produce they also use more materials. I'm just saying.
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Encourage electric flying. We may muster former VP and EPA hero Al Gore to our ranks!
Al doesn't care... as long as he can make $$$ of of all this and stop us peons from using his and his friends resources
everyone will be happy.
Spent several years doing the eletric thin in R/C. What a pain that was! except for the micro stuff where it allows
throttle control its not worth the efforts or hazard to property or environmental pollution that the mfg and disposal problems involve.
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The key to electric advances is mostly battery technology. The electronic stuff (MOSFET switches, microprocessor based controllers, etc.) is trivial and very low cost. As all the laptop and smaller portable computers (as well as other devices, including electric cars) drive battery technology, electric power will see the benefits. Notice also the military use in small model airplanes and other devices for surveillance and even tiny platforms for weapons. It all pushes on technology, which electric power will benefit from.
Personally, I hope we never see the end of small IC engines in this hobby; like almost everyone else I have an ingrained affection for them. But someday we may view IC powered stunters as another special interest class, like ignition.
But to me it seems obvious that electric power can and will ultimately be configured, programmed to provide the absolute ideal "stunt run", which I long ago concluded was the most important aspect of our competition. I know there is disagreement on such a statement, notice I said *I* had concluded this, and am not insisting (or even really caring) that we all agree.
L.
"Aibohphobia: the fear of palindromes."
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But to me it seems obvious that electric power can and will ultimately be configured, programmed to provide the absolute ideal "stunt run", which I long ago concluded was the most important aspect of our competition.
L.
This issue of programming for the ideal stunt run is a very valid one. For the most part, F3A is there already. I suppose not long from now, we will see the "laptops" in the stunt circle replacing the uniflow tanks. I personally have judged contests where competitors used electrics and quite frankly, there was no advantage or disadvantage, they still had to wiggle their hand!
In fact, I can tell you that one of the best engine runs I have ever seen, was from Leroy Black using what I believe was a Stalker 51 in a Spacehound. It was jaw dropping. To me, it looked as good if not better than an electric run, and we see electrics in Los Angeles ALL the time in RC-every single week.
I’ll admit I may be missing something here. If I can get a good run from my I.C. which I almost always do, and another competitor can get a good run from his electric, I am having trouble seeing where, (and this is important) the COMPETITIVE advantage is. In my mind, something like Igor Burgor’s bellcrank control system would have FAR more COMPETITIVE advantage than two different power devices spinning a prop.
In addition, F3A ships are very large and by FAI rules, have to be very light. In their case, electrics contribute signifantly to helping achieve weight by reducing structure, (they lose some of that because of battery weight). Also, Contra Props require tremendous torque virtually instantaneously, which are what electrics do. In a modern day FAI schedule, this torque has to be applied on and off very fast. Think of it as a hyper modern form of our old 2\4 break.
We don’t do that. We tend to run a much more constant speed. This makes it easier for us to accurate place our maneuvers. Also, we simply cannot leverage the advantage of an RC ship, because we can’t go faster than 55 MPH!! Our line length rules means we just don’t have the room to rock and roll like a 2M ship. Consequently, our powerplants become a wash. They simply cancel out each other. This means, that I can show up with the most advanced Plettenberg motor, with the hottest Castle escapement, and another guy can show up with a low end EVO Sixty and kick my but bad. All he needs is a steady run!!
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Just an observation. I think it's going to be a long time before the electrics replace IC. Myself, I have something over 150 glow, 2 diesels, 4 CO2, about 20 Jetex, 1 Compressed Air motor, and several pounds of rubber strip for future projects.
A lot of the electric action I see are people at schoolyards and such flying on their own. My RC club is getting an increase in smaller electrics, with roughly 15 of us either all electric, or mixed power, but for the larger planes, roughly what would qualify as .25 size and up, and helicopters, it is still either glow or the larger gas/oil ignition engines. The people with the money are even going turbine. Overall, It almost seems everything is increasing in number, not just electrics. Heck, Fox never stopped making the classic .35, and still puts out CL versions of about everything up to their .74. A few years ago, OS and Super Tigre brought out CL versions of their .34 and .51. There are CL engines available through Mecoa. This in spite of a prediction that CL was dying out.
I fly a lot of electric, especially the micro rc. They're fun, touchy, and keep one on his toes. The thing I don't like so much about electrics is the hastle of getting in a flight, taking the battery out, plugging in to a charger, and if it's the only battery I have for the plane, waiting 20-45 minutes to fly again, or with multiple batteries, installing another battery. With glow, if I feel like it, I can land, taxi to the pits, refuel in a couple minutes, and be flying agoin for 15 to 30 minutes. In general, battery management is a time consumer to me. Reduction of flying time to be able to get more flights out of a battery is not a consideration to me. I like to stay up till that funny paddle in front stops turning. And as far as price, in my current situation (retired, fixed income, medical expenses, replacing even the currently mounted engines is not going to happen. I've done cost/benefit analysis on the idea, and the numbers just don't work out. In fact, I might end up switching completely to rubber and hand launched gliders rather than switch to all electric.
Someday, I might might try an E-CL, when I finally get enough confidance to walk in a circle again. It's slow, but it's getting there.
And Shorty's basement was selling a small controller for E-powering small rubber FF models. Charge the battery, set the timer functions, turn on the arming switch. Place the plane on the ground. After the pre-set time, the motor starts, accelrates to take-off power, then when it;'s off the ground, drops back to a climb or cruise setting, then after the programmed time, cuts off. Gotta get one for one of my old Comet kits one of these days.
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- I guess it will if people keep the immediate gratification idealogy going. It takes someone perseverance to learn a new operating system and get it to work PROPERLY. How many sport or competition fliers regularly use Spark ignition in a winning stunt ship- excluding OTS, just the main event. Same idea easier to learn and apply the principles without undue drama.
Personally I'll keep my ICs and continue a 30 year fling with elecs. I prefer the cleanliness and power of elec., but I love the sound of a good running Fox- none of this 2/4 stroke stuff that the engine was never ported for (just my opinion ). Still breaks, but low 2- high 2 with little to no burp.
As for elec not being "allowed" in OTS, I beg to differ. Elec WAS being done in the fourties and a very brief summary was written in Frank Ziacs 1959-61 model aeronautic year book. First article was a letter by Fred Militky (resided in Germany). He described how he wanted to do elec free flight and found it lacking so started to experiment with control line (1940's). So I ask what is the difference between using electric now, with their improved motors and batteries, as compared to using modern ICs ( Magnum, OS, Enya, and even more improved engines) in an OTS contest? They were both around at the time in a primitive format and now both have improved immensely. No difference in my view.
Later, gotta go home now,
Ron
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I know the Volt is taking over Tax dollars for each sold and then more tad dollars for training of Fire fighters and so on and equipment to deal with the special problems of lipos.
With out all powerful out of control government spending tax dollars the Volt would no be on the market.
For Micro R/C the Lipo has real uses! n~
Have had a few scary puff/smoke, no fire YET!
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Big article in the local paper about Li-Po fires associated with R/C "TOYS". Seems like a local R/C car celebrity, Gil Losi, burned up his shop and a lot of stuff, didn't spread to his house, but could have.
Gist of the article being to make sure of three things, always:
1. Charge in a "fireproof" container.
2. Don't charge longer than specified.
3. Don't EVER leave a battery charging unattended.
My bro had a bulged Li-PO so he took it outside away from the house and punctured it with a long piece of music wire. What a JET of flame. The thing was not hot or anything before, just bulged.
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My bro had a bulged Li-PO so he took it outside away from the house and punctured it with a long piece of music wire. What a JET of flame. The thing was not hot or anything before, just bulged.
That would look so hot going through the pattern. Just imagine, your down by 3 points in the second round. You send a signal to your plane to puncture the battery during the overhead eight. A collective gasp goes through the crowd as a huge Jet of flame spews from the nose of your ship-the judges are awed out their socks. Your land your plane to a rousing ovation, and when the finals scores our in, you make a comeback win by 1 point. ;D
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OK, but a little hard to land a pile of ashes, more like sweeping up the debris!
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As for elec not being "allowed" in OTS, I beg to differ. Elec WAS being done in the fourties and a very brief summary was written in Frank Ziacs 1959-61 model aeronautic year book. First article was a letter by Fred Militky (resided in Germany). He described how he wanted to do elec free flight and found it lacking so started to experiment with control line (1940's). So I ask what is the difference between using electric now, with their improved motors and batteries, as compared to using modern ICs ( Magnum, OS, Enya, and even more improved engines) in an OTS contest? They were both around at the time in a primitive format and now both have improved immensely. No difference in my view.
Later, gotta go home now,
Ron
Same thing in R/C Classic Pattern. The rules actually address electric all the way back to the 60's. Guys in the newly formed Classic groups were recently arguing about the engines allowed, pretty much it's been a default to "anything".
When I was a kid the C/L Stunt rules included Jets.
Chris...
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I remember Bob Watts up in Liberty MISSOURI flying a dyna jet powered stunt plane at the Blue Ridge Mall. It was loud and fast. H^^