Author Topic: Is everyone legal.........just wondering? (Read 9207 times)

Terrence Durrill · « **on:** February 22, 2016, 12:03:57 PM »

ARE U LEGAL ?

O.K., Is everyone signed up with the FAA? Just wondering how many lawbreakers are out there and if there will be overcrowding in the local jails, come good Spring weather.

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #1 on:** February 22, 2016, 12:23:17 PM »

Maybe we can convince the wardens to let us fly CL inside the walls.

I'm registered, but I think my wife isn't.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #2 on:** February 22, 2016, 12:39:14 PM »

Quote from: Terrence Durrill on February 22, 2016, 12:03:57 PM

ARE U LEGAL ?

O.K., Is everyone signed up with the FAA? Just wondering how many lawbreakers are out there and if there will be overcrowding in the local jails, come good Spring weather.

Apparently not required for CL. At some point we will find out what happens when it comes to the field inspectors.

Brett

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #3 on:** February 22, 2016, 12:52:19 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on February 22, 2016, 12:39:14 PM

Apparently not required for CL. At some point we will find out what happens when it comes to the field inspectors.

I think we're going to be investigating all various meanings of "unenforcible" on this one, frankly. Us old fellows with our toy airplanes on strings aren't going to be able to hold a candle to the kids with quadcopters in terms of the powers of Obliviousness and Disregard, I think.

bob whitney · « **Reply #4 on:** February 22, 2016, 01:47:01 PM »

controlline only if using 2.4 for anything ,mainly scale

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 22, 2016, 02:28:00 PM »

I fully understand and even support those of us who decided NOT to register

Unfortunately I am a model airplane guy of one in my county and do not have enough space on my property to fly

I have encountered a few of our LEO and Park rangers who usually leave me alone but I can tell they have absolutely no clue

Not desiring to have a new guy hassle me because his boss (town PD , Ranger, Game Warden, Sheriff) just gave him the FAA Registered UAS response and evidence cheat card......that does NOT in any way say Control line is exempt

I got my free 3 year registration and a current AMA number and will not look back and sweat the politics of this non sense, costly, and predictably totally ineffective DoT/FAA ruling

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #6 on:** February 22, 2016, 03:10:28 PM »

Fred that's sort of my take. It is no big deal to just sign up- then forget about it. It's also possible a well meaning and nervous contest CD might want to CYA and ask to see your FAA number. Personally I still read the rules to say CL DOES need to register despite the opinions contrary. I license my car and trailer, pay my insurance, have a drivers license, am registered to vote and have an AMA card. The FAA? No skin off my nose to sign up. It's a very fat fine to be wrong here.

Dave

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #7 on:** February 22, 2016, 03:31:30 PM »

I'm not signed up and am determined not to. It's my understanding that CL is not required to register and that's my story and I'm stick'in to it.

I believe this to be more Government over reach and would not cooperate at any rate.

Randy Cuberly

Pat Chewning · « **Reply #8 on:** February 22, 2016, 03:45:19 PM »

I'm not registering nor marking my CL models or my RC sailplanes. And I believe I'm also "legal" because the FAA has no legal authority over model aircraft. The law is pretty clear that the FAA cannot make rules for model aircraft. (At least it is clear to me).

Fred Cronenwett · « **Reply #9 on:** February 22, 2016, 04:01:25 PM »

Registration was easy, we give more personal information away when we order something on line.

I have registered because I do have a couple RC models that I might fly some day and a bunch of CL model models with 2.4 Ghz controls. Anyone with a carrier or scale model with 2.4 Ghz should register, and if you fly CL stunt with the 2.4 Ghz engine shutoff and retracts that would qualify also.

Fred

builditright · « **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2016, 04:16:38 PM »

Gee... I was born here, I didn't know I had to register again after I turned 18 and registered for the possible draft..

LOL!

tom hampshire · « **Reply #11 on:** February 22, 2016, 04:40:12 PM »

Fred V. touched on what to me is the central issue in all of this.

  The east coast contest venues include the following: Huntersville, NC (MCLS) on a county landfill, Bradenton FL on a county landfill, Lorton VA (NVCL) BLM site, Philadelphia PA (Philly fliers) Neshaminy State Park, Middlesex NJ (MM) Middlesex Borough Park, also Palisades Park NJ (Bergen County MAC) and Flushing NY, Flushing Meadow State Park. Others are Buder Park in St. Louis, Silverbell Park in Tucson and the park at Saylors Lake in Des Moines. Some of these have administrators who have made initial inquiries about FAA compliance, more are sure to follow. Some of the sites are under attack already for noise or some other imaginary bogeyman that we seem to attract.

  Along comes the AMA to tell us to ignore the text of the regs, the FAA says we don't have to register. My difficulty with this is that the local municipal or county judge judge who decides about a local summons won't know about it at all. Just like the IRS, the regulations alone are the determining language, and the FAA, while it has authority to write the regs, has no authority to issue waivers under them. If they want to exempt CL, they can do so only by amending the regulations. As far as I can see, all the AMA has gotten is some informal comment to the effect that the FAA doesn't care. The regs have not been amended, and that is the only way to do away with the registration requirement.

  OUR PROBLEM IS THE FAA WONT PROTECT US FROM A PARK ADMINISTRATOR WHO READS THE REGS LITERALLY. The FAA lacks the authority to do so. The only way to deal with this effectively is for us to compel all those who share our fields to register promptly, and then contact the park administrators proactively to demonstrate compliance. Anything less puts our flying fields at risk.

  So I would politely suggest to all of the fliers who wish to defy the Feds that they do it on private lands so as not to endanger any of our hard won and fragile flying sites.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #12 on:** February 22, 2016, 04:53:31 PM »

Quote from: tom hampshire on February 22, 2016, 04:40:12 PM

Along comes the AMA to tell us to ignore the text of the regs, the FAA says we don't have to register. My difficulty with this is that the local municipal or county judge judge who decides about a local summons won't know about it at all. Just like the IRS, the regulations alone are the determining language, and the FAA, while it has authority to write the regs, has no authority to issue waivers under them. If they want to exempt CL, they can do so only by amending the regulations. As far as I can see, all the AMA has gotten is some informal comment to the effect that the FAA doesn't care. The regs have not been amended, and that is the only way to do away with the registration requirement.

A point I tried to make here:

http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/amagov/2016/02/02/ama-on-the-hill/

when I was trying to point out the same concern (and got my head bit off).

Brett

Mike Griffin · « **Reply #13 on:** February 22, 2016, 05:50:05 PM »

I never thought I would live to see the day that flying a model airplane would become a matter of national concern. I'm going back to Bass fishing.

MG

John Bocksnick · « **Reply #14 on:** February 22, 2016, 05:55:02 PM »

Yup, but no refine yet.

John Bocksnick

Target · « **Reply #15 on:** February 22, 2016, 05:58:55 PM »

I'm legal. I have AMA. That should be all that's needed.
I don't fly a drone, so I don't need to worry about drone regulations.
R,
Chris
Line of sight rc sailplane pilot and budding c/l circle jerk.

Steve Thompson · « **Reply #16 on:** February 22, 2016, 06:14:51 PM »

Brett posed a very good question...

I read the link Brett gave above and the reply he got, which included:

"As the old saying goes, “the squeaky wheel gets the grease.” Right now the FAA doesn’t consider FF and CL as UAS. It is probably advantageous for FF and CL pilots to not squeak too much to the FAA for fear the FAA may apply grease and give that discipline of modeling more attention."

WOW!

Of course, in Chad's reply he clarified:

"Sorry if my reply was interpreted as a threat, of course that was never intended."

Interpreted?? Well, sure sounds like a threat to me!

Brett Buck · « **Reply #17 on:** February 22, 2016, 09:34:33 PM »

Quote from: Steve Thompson on February 22, 2016, 06:14:51 PM

Brett posed a very good question...

I read the link Brett gave above and the reply he got, which included:

"As the old saying goes, “the squeaky wheel gets the grease.” Right now the FAA doesn’t consider FF and CL as UAS. It is probably advantageous for FF and CL pilots to not squeak too much to the FAA for fear the FAA may apply grease and give that discipline of modeling more attention."

WOW!

Of course, in Chad's reply he clarified:

"Sorry if my reply was interpreted as a threat, of course that was never intended."

Interpreted?? Well, sure sounds like a threat to me!

I prefer to think it was a matter of not knowing what to say and getting flustered. But it does indicate a degree of contempt for the issue. I have no "in" with the FAA, and the AMA supposedly does. But as reported here in another thread, the AMA doesn't want to broach the topic for fear of misdirecting effort away from their main agenda. The other interpretation is that they are simply worthless/pointless/powerless in this process and don't care about the issue. Tom's post above is exactly the issue I am concerned about and they *really don't care*.

Brett

Norm Faith Jr. · « **Reply #18 on:** February 22, 2016, 09:59:42 PM »

Quote from: Dave_Trible on February 22, 2016, 03:10:28 PM

Fred that's sort of my take. It is no big deal to just sign up- then forget about it. It's also possible a well meaning and nervous contest CD might want to CYA and ask to see your FAA number. Personally I still read the rules to say CL DOES need to register despite the opinions contrary. I license my car and trailer, pay my insurance, have a drivers license, am registered to vote and have an AMA card. The FAA? No skin off my nose to sign up. It's a very fat fine to be wrong here.

Dave

Well I just got home from Little Rock, after listening to the "UAV lecture" given by the FAA representative. He just got in from Oklahoma City after attending a UAV discussion there. I even taped the lecture. When it came to taking questions...I asked..."does a model airplane attached to your hand by steel wires, fall into the category of a UAV requiring registration?" His answer was "No!" "That is a tethered model airplane and is not required registration." Regardless of having a RF controllable device. It's still a tethered model. No ifs, no if it has this, just plain No! But all of those other RC models (drones) weighing over a specific weight, will have to display a registration number, call the control tower or air traffic control and etc. and they are serious about it, however the enforcement issue is being worked out between the FEDS and local law enforcement.

Norm

david beazley · « **Reply #19 on:** February 23, 2016, 02:55:51 AM »

An article on Drudge this morning
http://thehill.com/policy/transportation/270297-drone-users-face-fines-jail-time-for-not-registering-devices
I predict there will be a couple of high profile cases that are designed to scare the begeezus out of people. I sold my soul to the feds this weekend, I don't want to be "that guy". They are going to swat a few people like bugs, right, wrong or indifferent. The AMA doesn't have the juice to stop this. The post by Dave Trible made me realize it.

goozgog · « **Reply #20 on:** February 23, 2016, 04:36:00 AM »

The defining situation will be at the
U.S. Nats. If the Contest Director is
looking for registration numbers then
that will make it mandatory.
Trickle down effect for everyone.

How about at Brodak's?

As a Canadian resident, I'm concerned
what the expectations will be as I bring
a van load of C/L planes across the boarder.
U.S. Customs have always been the best
and most reasonable I've ever encountered,
but if they have a new directive.... Yikes!

FWIW, I feel the U.S. needs to be more
vigilant at the Canadian boarder, but I don't
consider my C/L planes as a threat.

Paul Smith · « **Reply #21 on:** February 23, 2016, 06:24:11 AM »

From my piloting days, I remember where the FAA's controlled airspace begins.

2,000 feet above dense crowds.
1,000 feet above populated areas.
500 feet above open country.

As long as I keep my models below those levels my model flying is none of the FAA's business.

When we flew real planes in the Great Plains area if was understood that the FAA employed five enforcement officers for a six-state area. Short of a fatal crash you would NEVER see one.

pipemakermike · « **Reply #22 on:** February 23, 2016, 08:28:43 AM »

not registered and never will be<G>

JoeJust · « **Reply #23 on:** February 23, 2016, 09:46:11 AM »

In less than 60 days I will again be attending the only CL meet I can attend in the NW. The annual "Tune-Up" I the only Carrier meet I can attend other than the Brodak contest in June. My fear is that over zealous regulators in Oregon would show up to insist that we be registered with the FAA. I plan on once again using my 2.4 equipped Carrier profile plane. I simply don't want to drive nearly 300 miles one way to be told I can't fly, so that is why I registered. With that said, I hope that if the worse happens, I wont be the only Carrier pilot there. No amount of asking for a reasonable discussion with someone representing the new "Regulations" will ever sway a person on a mission. Been there, done that, and it never works. So, I carry my registration card, and have placed my FAA number on all my 2.4 Carrier ships. Simply registering is cheap insurance.
Joe

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #24 on:** February 23, 2016, 10:05:50 AM »

Quote from: Paul Smith on February 23, 2016, 06:24:11 AM

From my piloting days, I remember where the FAA's controlled airspace begins.

2,000 feet above dense crowds.
1,000 feet above populated areas.
500 feet above open country.

As long as I keep my models below those levels my model flying is none of the FAA's business.

When we flew real planes in the Great Plains area if was understood that the FAA employed five enforcement officers for a six-state area. Short of a fatal crash you would NEVER see one.

Hi Paul. Just be aware the airspace definitions have just recently changed as noted in another thread (due to drones) and going forward a cop, park ranger or CD MIGHT be the ones asking if you are registered depending on how they've been instructed locally or if anyone complains about noise or whatever. It is just a different situation now than it was. You may never have a problem but then.....in the minds of the unknowing public your airplanes could represent every bad drone story in the news. Of course that's irrational- to you and me but not everybody.

Dave

Pat Chewning · « **Reply #25 on:** February 23, 2016, 12:36:07 PM »

Quote from: Norm Faith Jr. on February 22, 2016, 09:59:42 PM

however the enforcement issue is being worked out between the FEDS and local law enforcement.

Norm

Other than the FAA themselves, local and federal police are NOT "working out" the enforcement issue. They are ignoring it. They (rightfully) have much more important things to do.

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 23, 2016, 02:59:18 PM »

Pat that may be true of YOUR local LEO but don't think for a second that every locality has the same demographic

MY local RC club leases land on a Corps of engineers park policed by their version of Park Rangers who are low paid brain dead

Zero pyrotechnics allowed
Mufflers required
No flight over the lake water
NO guns period ( federal law allows weapons on federal land except Military bases)
They have been issued the DoT FAA cheat card...that sez ALL UAS must be registered...zero description or exemptions noted

There is a culture of many municipalities, state, local parks departments, that believe the acreage is theirs exclusivity and they control any and all activity on that property including if or if not you may smoke a cigar or pee on a tree out of view or enjoy ZZ Top at 103 Db while drinking a cold beer

Many LEO, Sheriff, Game wardens, Park Rangers have ZERO notion that we, the PUBLIC paid for that land, and should have free unfettered access as long as we do not damage or destroy the resource

Target · « **Reply #27 on:** February 23, 2016, 07:17:06 PM »

I'm not registering unless I'm actually forced to (and that would likely be for my RC sailplane flying).
I do reside in the armpit of the general public (Los Angeles), so if anyone is going to experience LEO's, its likely to be me.
I just don't think that supporting this retarded idea is a good thing to do. I think this whole thing will likely evolve to something more reasonable before enforcement takes place.
Again, I don't think this over regulation should be supported, just my own opinion.
I understand those that want to go with the flow, but I think that abiding by a ridiculous regulation condones the next ridiculous regulation.

I hope I don't get into trouble, I'm generally a pretty safety oriented guy.

R,
Chris

Mike Griffin · « **Reply #28 on:** February 23, 2016, 08:52:03 PM »

As we move into contest season it is going to be interesting to see if this affects attendance if contest directors are going to reuire planes be registered. This will be the test of principles.

Mike G.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #29 on:** February 23, 2016, 10:39:26 PM »

Just to keep Dave's circle legal I will not fly my RC controlled throttle plane there. I will use the soccer fields so they may be shut down and then all those unused ball diamonds also.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #30 on:** February 24, 2016, 10:16:20 AM »

It torqued me, but yes, I registered. Figured the airport where we fly might not realize that CL planes aren't part of the deal.

Mike Lauerman · « **Reply #31 on:** February 24, 2016, 10:56:41 AM »

Sad thing when branches of Polit. Cor. eclipses level mindedness and clear thinking...Moreover, the badge of authority and its limitless parameters.

A bleak memory of days past when flying my C/L Gee Bee... "I had the world on a string..."

Chad Hill · « **Reply #32 on:** February 24, 2016, 05:18:52 PM »

Reposted from another thread I participated in:

I've flown real aircraft for nearly 40 years (civilian, military and airlines) and, having thus been exposed to the FAA, here is my $.02 on the subject. It's a warning, really.

It is estimated that one million drones will be sold in the USA this year alone. Some of these will be purchased by idiots, by reckless individuals, and by others who have sinister motives (such as those who shoot lasers at airline cockpits, which, by the way, I have personally experienced). With these numbers it is almost inevitable that there will be a serious incident or accident involving a drone and a real aircraft. There have already been many close calls.

This registration process is just baby step 1 for the FAA. When such a serious incident or accident occurs in the future, the wrath of the FAA will descend upon ALL of the registered individuals. The next step is certification and licensing. Certification and licensing means training, examinations, evaluations, and inspections (and, of course, "fees"). More and more regulations will follow. I am not joking. This is already happening to commercial drone operators, and the FAA will come to see us in the same light.

I hope I'm wrong, but we may come to think of the pre-drone era as the good-old-days of model aviation.

IF YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO REGISTER, DO NOT REGISTER. REPEAT, DO NOT REGISTER. You are just setting yourself up for mountains of future red tape.

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #33 on:** February 24, 2016, 05:59:50 PM »

If that guy doesn't register and has a run in with the locals about it, his certificates are up for grabs. That's the only reason I registered.
Chris...

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #34 on:** February 24, 2016, 07:42:41 PM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on February 23, 2016, 10:39:26 PM

Just to keep Dave's circle legal I will not fly my RC controlled throttle plane there. I will use the soccer fields so they may be shut down and then all those unused ball diamonds also.

John maybe you and Cliven Bundy can start a Delta Dart program in the big house.

Dave

John Fitzgerald · « **Reply #35 on:** February 24, 2016, 09:48:03 PM »

Due to all this, I have quit flying. May throw all my planes away at some point. No point in getting arrested for flying CL on my own place.

Serge_Krauss · « **Reply #36 on:** February 24, 2016, 09:56:27 PM »

'Not registered. 'not intending to do so, until the FAA says that I must. They have NOT done so. - SK

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #37 on:** February 24, 2016, 10:08:28 PM »

Quote from: Mike Griffin on February 23, 2016, 08:52:03 PM

As we move into contest season it is going to be interesting to see if this affects attendance if contest directors are going to reuire planes be registered. This will be the test of principles. Mike G.

After the last AMA email to CD's/Leader Members/Elders (?), I emailed the following questions. Probably should have asked some others, but it was sort of doing it while confused and PO'd, ya know. They never remember to mention CL & FF. The bold type is my modification via html code, for emphasis.

"Steve let me answer one question at a time. Please let me know if I fail to answer any.

1. February 19 is the date that they will start checking. Before then they won't expect you to have the number when you fly.
2. If you are not using a transmitter you are not required to register.
3. This is true I am sure because this is new. We have asked the question directly and free flight and control line pilots who do not use a transmitter ever do not have to register.
4. No, it's not up to you to police this. This is up to the individual to make sure they are registered. You might remind groups that they should register but it's not a direct responsibility.
5. Those living outside the US can register, but at this time have to do so from a computer with an IP address in the states.

This was a sudden move, there are some kinks, but we do appreciate those who are continuing to follow the rules and set a precedent for others.

Mandee Mikulski"

I may be dense, but I don't think her last sentence is a slap on the back of the head (per Leroy Jethro Gibbs).

Steve

Clint Ormosen · « **Reply #38 on:** February 25, 2016, 02:32:00 AM »

I'm not registered. I'm not going to be registered. As a CD I'll never check for registration.

goozgog · « **Reply #39 on:** February 25, 2016, 03:27:30 AM »

Thanks Steve for chasing that down,
and thanks to Mandy Mikulski too.
That's probably as definitive
as we're going to get for now.

Cheers! - K.

Joseph Patterson · « **Reply #40 on:** February 25, 2016, 04:44:43 AM »

I'm not registered and I'm legal according to the FAA. Our park officials don't know about the drone regs., and we don't plan to enlighten them! Some of them learned what C/L was comprised of two years ago, even though we have been flying in our park for over forty years!
Doug

Terrence Durrill · « **Reply #41 on:** February 25, 2016, 03:14:25 PM »

Quote from: John Fitzgerald on February 24, 2016, 09:48:03 PM

Due to all this, I have quit flying. May throw all my planes away at some point. No point in getting arrested for flying CL on my own place.

John, we see Big Brother...........ironfisted tyrannical government marching on across America and with every step it takes, we lose more of our rights and freedoms. Today, our model aircraft.....tomorrow.......who knows, but we won't like it......GUARANTEED.

For more information click on this site: http://www.conventionofstates.com/

EJN · « **Reply #42 on:** February 25, 2016, 04:20:10 PM »

All model railroads will have to be registered with the DOT as "transportation systems."

john e. holliday · « **Reply #43 on:** February 25, 2016, 04:47:21 PM »

When is some one going to take an RC car loaded down with explosives and set it off in a crowd? With FPV on board it would be easy.

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #44 on:** February 25, 2016, 05:47:34 PM »

Good idea, Doc. Something that will go right up the front steps of the FAA building?

Steve

Steve Thompson · « **Reply #45 on:** February 25, 2016, 06:04:23 PM »

When I ask myself what reason the Fed has for wanting modelers to register, I come up with the following:

Our government sees UAV's as survailance and weapon carrying devices and they don't trust their own citizens with them.

They can claim they are registering people for safety but try money and fear as the real reasons.

Not much to fear from an old guy spinning in circles with a slimer on steel cables and an attack radius of 70 feet.

Fred Cronenwett · « **Reply #46 on:** February 25, 2016, 08:38:58 PM »

I think the item that put the registration in focus was not the drones or the RC model itself but the fact that First Person View allowed the pilot to fly away from line of sight. The fact that they now have cameras is a minor issue, now someone can fly something (drone, helicopter or RC model) with First Person View away from where they are located and create a different safety problem.

I find it interesting that the majority of the news articles only talk about the quad coptors and barely even mention the RC airplanes.

Fred

david beazley · « **Reply #47 on:** February 25, 2016, 08:41:05 PM »

I wonder how if anyone else has thought this might be considered as age, race, and sex discrimination?
Most of the modelers I know are old white guys.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #48 on:** February 26, 2016, 06:16:56 PM »

Quote from: david beazley on February 25, 2016, 08:41:05 PM

I wonder how if anyone else has thought this might be considered as age, race, and sex discrimination?
Most of the modelers I know are old white guys.

Old white guys are not defined as a "protected class", so you won't get too far with the current DOJ.

Brett

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #49 on:** February 26, 2016, 10:58:53 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on February 26, 2016, 06:16:56 PM

Old white guys are not defined as a "protected class", so you won't get too far with the current DOJ.

Brett

I took old David to mean OWG's as a class to be persecuted, to teach us a lesson of some kind. Probably the lesson is to do as we're told, give up any guns we might have, and make sure we pay our fair share of taxes?

Steve