Iron on on the front row?

[Dwayne Donnelly]

Sparky posted a video of the Nats appearance  judging, did I see a iron on finish on the front row? 

[Perry Rose]

 This one.

[Dwayne Donnelly]

 This one

Yeah I guess the video would be helpful. Lol thanks Perry.

[Shorts,David]

Jim Aron's new systrema. The first two both won concours. Of course first row. Wouldn't matter if he covered it with cheese. Masters can work in many mediums, so  long as the judges are not ignorant of this.

[Brent Williams]

Jim Aron's Systrema 3.
Such clean work!  With transparent film, every piece of wood, ever fitment, every glue joint, every sanding mark and every covering seam is on full display.  To display all of those and be awarded a front row placement is indicative of master level talent by Jim Aron. 
Here's a picture he posted recently on FB.

[Igor]

Thank you! You have posted this video ! Not much of info comes about NATS 2024. May be later on , since I've realising every body in there are busy.

[Dwayne Donnelly]

Jim Aron's Systrema 3.
Such clean work!  With transparent film, every piece of wood, ever fitment, every glue joint, every sanding mark and every covering seam is on full display.  To display all of those and be awarded a front row placement is indicative of master level talent by Jim Aron. 
Here's a picture he posted recently on FB.

Would love to see it in person.

[Dwayne Donnelly]

Thank you! You have posted this video ! Not much of info comes about NATS 2024. May be later on , since I've realising every body in there are busy.

There's coverage here.
https://www.facebook.com/pampacl

[Brett Buck]

To almost no one’s surprise, this airplane won the Pilot’s Choice Concours d’elegance. Highly imaginative and brilliantly executed. You cannot imagine the amount of work that goes into this, and how skilled it has to be.

    I also note that it is one of the lighter airplanes here, and also, flies extremely well despite having exactly one flight on it, the same day it went into the car to be transported here a week ago today.

    Brett

[fred cesquim]

iron on well executed can be as good or better than old doped stuff, lighter for sure
the problem usually is prejudice due to exposing of poor craftsmanship on iron on covering
once one sees a perfectly covered ship and couldn´t tell the media used one may start to look with more interest in other options

about 20 years ago i moved to another city, and offered my pro building services just to hear at the field "nobody here want´s monokoted planes". and this was from a r/c field crowd, used to iorn on coverings.
I bought a kit, built and covered withn 2 weeks and returned to the field, when they saw it, most of them agreed that was better finished than most of the planes they ever had, and i started to build for them. They just didn´t had the chance to see a good covering job done.

for me, monokoting base and painted trim is the way to go for ages

i LOVE dope smell, but the weight penalty and cracks due to age are no longer attractive.

Clear covering is another level of craftsmanship, hard to beat that! congrats to the participants

[Dwayne Donnelly]

iron on well executed can be as good or better than old doped stuff, lighter for sure
the problem usually is prejudice due to exposing of poor craftsmanship on iron on covering
once one sees a perfectly covered ship and couldn´t tell the media used one may start to look with more interest in other options

about 20 years ago i moved to another city, and offered my pro building services just to hear at the field "nobody here want´s monokoted planes". and this was from a r/c field crowd, used to iorn on coverings.
I bought a kit, built and covered withn 2 weeks and returned to the field, when they saw it, most of them agreed that was better finished than most of the planes they ever had, and i started to build for them. They just didn´t had the chance to see a good covering job done.

for me, monokoting base and painted trim is the way to go for ages

i LOVE dope smell, but the weight penalty and cracks due to age are no longer attractive.

Clear covering is another level of craftsmanship, hard to beat that! congrats to the participants

Couldn't agree more, having heard the stories about a iron on finish will never make the front row it's good to see times have changed, and to that end here's my latest 20 pointer a Nobler with ultracote red and rattle can...lol 

[fred cesquim]

Couldn't agree more, having heard the stories about a iron on finish will never make the front row it's good to see times have changed, and to that end here's my latest 20 pointer a Nobler with ultracote red and rattle can...lol 

Great job Dwayne!
that´s it, modellers develop new technics and improve product use if they´re willing to
here´s my "pointless" monokoted wings & tail latest birds

[Curare]

Fred, how are you doing your rivets and panel lines?

[Ken Culbertson]

100% Monokote & rattle can

Ken

[M Spencer]

Congratulations Jim Aron on winning the concours award with his new Systrema 3!

From the P A M P A link , above .

[Rusty]

Very nice.   What brand covering did he use?   Also, how do you avoid the covering sagging over time and ruining the appearance?  I have some nice planes with monokote, but over the years the material sags and many times cannot be tightened up again.  I've had to replace sections that would not tighten up again. 

[fred cesquim]

Fred, how are you doing your rivets and panel lines?

Hi Greg
with 04mm rotring india ink pen, i mix india ink white and black to achieve the grey tone
straight lines are all done with metal rulers and the round figures, inspection panels and rivets using the Top Flite Scale Warbird Template

[fred cesquim]

Very nice.   What brand covering did he use?   Also, how do you avoid the covering sagging over time and ruining the appearance?  I have some nice planes with monokote, but over the years the material sags and many times cannot be tightened up again.  I've had to replace sections that would not tighten up again.

Not sure about his choice, but looks like monokote to me.and a astonishing finish for sure! deserved all of the prizes and kudos.

The best brand and long lasting is top flite´s monokote. i´ve used to cover most of my clients models with oracover (ultracote in USA) due to the almost bubble less overlapping of colors, but found out that after some 5-8 years the material start to delaminate badly.

a few tricks with monokote: overlap the l/e  to the bottom corner about 1/4" of centerline, this will prevent most of the sight of the separation line

try to execute your paint design to paint over l/e and wingtips, the paint will completely hide the overlap seam

use a professional heat gun ( the one´s used for car adhesive covering are good and cheaper) they have more airflow and temperature. After you seal the corners of the covering, use the heat gun to stretch the covering to the limit (in order to avoid warps, do like this: center sheeting, l/e sheeting, t/e sheeting then go for the bottom panel. next start to stretch one rib bay and do the oposite side and keep switching until all done). When the wing pane is ready, get the softest cloth you have, apply heat over the sheeting about 5" at time and come over with the cloth pressing softly the covering to the sheeting and capstrips. this will make the material stick to the entire surface not denting like an iron would do. Bonus: will look like a doped finish with the corners sucked to the wood

i paint all of the remaining colors over the monokote and apply a final clear coat over the entire plane. this will prevent sun fading of colors, cornes and seal lips will be virtually invisible, impossible to delaminate and i suspect gives less chance to sag along the way

i avoid dark colors (because  sun exposure overheating) and never let the plane on heavy sunny days exposed for hours

The transparent colors and basid colors like white, yellow, red and light blue hardly sag at all

sometimes sags a little and a heat gun will put it back in shape, if properly tauted the sag will be minimal.

this Tgazer is 10 years old now under brazilian tropical sun, still look the same

[Dennis Toth]

Fred,
Very nice job and thanks for sharing you technique. In the past I did several ships with MonoKote and had very good results. I always applied one coat of Balsaright for film to the structure to get a stronger bond. I always though the weakness was at the seams and was looking for a clear coat to seal the whole ship but got sidetracked into paint and did not pursue it further. With the quality of balsa today we need to save weight, the film finish does this but for glow still needs to be sealed.

What paint and clearcoat do you use?

Best,   DennisT

[fred cesquim]

Fred,
Very nice job and thanks for sharing you technique. In the past I did several ships with MonoKote and had very good results. I always applied one coat of Balsaright for film to the structure to get a stronger bond. I always though the weakness was at the seams and was looking for a clear coat to seal the whole ship but got sidetracked into paint and did not pursue it further. With the quality of balsa today we need to save weight, the film finish does this but for glow still needs to be sealed.

What paint and clearcoat do you use?

Best,   DennisT

thank you very much Dennis
i don´t use any sealer on the balsa because if a bubble develop will be hard to get back, and the pressing of the monokote against the wood would show some flaws. the bonus side of sealing only into the wood is that if you mar the surface rubbing against something a quick pass with heat gan can hide that

for my RC jobs i run a small brush with 2 part clear coat on the joints and overlaps, after cured you hardly see any sign of it and protect against rubbing the corners while on transportation

i use 2 part primer, lacquer solid colors and polyester for metallics ( lacquer is lighter, cover better and you can sand and get rid of the separation lines) the final coat is a 2 part polyurethane car clear with high solid content ( very dilluted and light applyed). i use sherwin willians brand. and final polishing.

[Rusty]

How many planes are there that the owner did ALL the work making the plane? 

[Rusty]

Fred,
Very nice job and thanks for sharing you technique. In the past I did several ships with MonoKote and had very good results. I always applied one coat of Balsaright for film to the structure to get a stronger bond. I always though the weakness was at the seams and was looking for a clear coat to seal the whole ship but got sidetracked into paint and did not pursue it further. With the quality of balsa today we need to save weight, the film finish does this but for glow still needs to be sealed.

What paint and clearcoat do you use?

Best,   DennisT

Are you settled into your new home?   

I do use balsa rite on my structures and that stops bubbling and lifting, but the open areas start sagging after a couple of years.  My last 4 planes I used polyspan, dope and paint.  That never sags. 

Send pic of your new shop....

Rusty

[fred cesquim]

Are you settled into your new home?   

I do use balsa rite on my structures and that stops bubbling and lifting, but the open areas start sagging after a couple of years.  My last 4 planes I used polyspan, dope and paint.  That never sags. 

Send pic of your new shop....

Rusty

Rusty, i have one question then, about polyspan.
i have covered 2 planes with it, observing the right side and right orientation of fibers, using regular dope ( it´s very hard to find butyrate here in brazil). after some 8 brushed hands i apply 2 part primer lightly.
both planes start to crack the polyspan when i tried to sand carefully the open bays, or mask colors, up to a point that i rip off and changed to silkspan.
any idea of the problem?
as for balsarite and similar stuff, unfortunately they are not available here, and we cannot import liquids through mail, so i have no experience on that.

[Rusty]

Fred,

One side of polyspan is shinier than the other side.  The dull side goes down.  I don't know how to use the product without dope.  I use dope to seal the wood structure and glue the polyspan down.  After using a heat gun to tighten it, I used dope to seal it.   

Maybe some of the more experienced guys know of a way to use polyspan without dope.

I have heard of people using hair spray instead of balsa rite.   I never tried it. 

Rusty

[FLOYD CARTER]

IMO, I don't think a profile stunter should come near front row, regardless of craftsmanship or paint scheme.

[Paul Smith]

How many planes are there that the owner did ALL the work making the plane?

Modeling was on the DOWNHILL slope when they let the so-called "modelers" buy engines, then it was propellors. 
Look where we are now.  The Chinese team has Ukrainian equipment.

[Dennis Leonhardi]

Jim Aron's Systrema 3.
Such clean work!  With transparent film, every piece of wood, ever fitment, every glue joint, every sanding mark and every covering seam is on full display.  To display all of those and be awarded a front row placement is indicative of master level talent by Jim Aron. 
Here's a picture he posted recently on FB.

Simply awesome!

[Dennis Leonhardi]

100% Monokote & rattle can

Ken

Ken, how about a photo of the top model from the front?  Curious to see how you mounted the engine!

Dennis

[Dennis Leonhardi]

 This one.

Thanks for posting, Perry!  The level of workmanship is simply incredible!

[Ken Culbertson]

Ken, how about a photo of the top model from the front?  Curious to see how you mounted the engine!

Dennis

It is an old Morris profile printed mount before Okie took over.  All of the finished pix I have are from the rear.  Battery is outboard but held in by two 1" Velcro fold back locking straps.  Esc is on the inboard.  Timer is buried in a tunnel cooled by the scoop in front.

Ken

[Dennis Leonhardi]

It is an old Morris profile printed mount before Okie took over.  All of the finished pix I have are from the rear.  Battery is outboard but held in by two 1" Velcro fold back locking straps.  Esc is on the inboard.  Timer is buried in a tunnel cooled by the scoop in front.

Ken

Very Neat!

Dennis

[Howard Rush]

How many planes are there that the owner did ALL the work making the plane? 

Probably all of them, but for sure one of them.

[Brett Buck]

IMO, I don't think a profile stunter should come near front row, regardless of craftsmanship or paint scheme.

   Your opinion would fall into the extreme minority.

     Uncle Jimby has built plenty of front-row quality profiles, including one that got 20 points at VSC- it's on the cover of the RSM Ringmaster kit.

      Brett

p.s. like this one:

[Ted Fancher]

Bravo to Uncle Jimby!  there have been dozens of beautiful stunt ships entered in the Nats that were magnification in the "usual"  manner.  What Jimby has done was to take a totally different approach to the "cream of the crop" stunt ships at the latest Nats and approach the whole concept from a totally different directions...something I've seen time after time over the years...and then introduced a unique and unrepresented approach to the whole idea of the last 20 or seventy plus years I've been around and made it unquestionably the "cream of the years crop" in a manner of which nobody else had ever contemplated...let alone submitted the rank and final as a strange but captivating new approach  to  present to the clan.  {Take that for a monster sentence!)

Sounds like, yet again,  Uncle Jimby was a step or more in front of the rest of the clan as to the latest redirection of what's "cool" in the never ending race to the cream of the CLPA crop!

Couldn't happen to better Guy!  I'm a big fan!


Ted

[Brett Buck]

Sounds like, yet again,  Uncle Jimby was a step or more in front of the rest of the clan as to the latest redirection of what's "cool" in the never ending race to the cream of the CLPA crop!

Couldn't happen to better Guy!  I'm a big fan!

    I knew he was good to go on the concours, because everybody walked right past the other magnificent 19-point airplanes and were clustered around his. He is a genuine, full-blown, artist, and highly imaginative.

    BTW, the airplane is also very light and appears to fly very well.

     Brett

[Joseph Lijoi]

    I knew he was good to go on the concours, because everybody walked right past the other magnificent 19-point airplanes and were clustered around his. He is a genuine, full-blown, artist, and highly imaginative.

    BTW, the airplane is also very light and appears to fly very well.

     Brett

Are there any flexibility issues with Monokote? I think I saw a Bill Werwage Juno there that was covered in Monokote. I've been told that I beams and Monokote are a bad combination.

[Brett Buck]

Are there any flexibility issues with Monokote? I think I saw a Bill Werwage Juno there that was covered in Monokote. I've been told that I beams and Monokote are a bad combination.

   Potentially, yes, but you design around it. This airplane is a D tube and adequately stiff.

     Brett

[Dan McEntee]

Are there any flexibility issues with Monokote? I think I saw a Bill Werwage Juno there that was covered in Monokote. I've been told that I beams and Monokote are a bad combination.

   I flew R/C sailplanes A LOT back in the 1970's and 1980's, and in that time period a very high percentage of R/C sailplane kits had stressed skin designs. They had pretty light wing structures for the most part, some were D-tube construction. Monokote was more or less mandatory for wing covering so that the wings had enough strength and torsional stiffness to withstand high start and winch launching. Monokote MUST be applied correctly to achieve this. It needs to be stretched as much as possible when attached and wrinkle free from the beginning. In my experience, Monokote has, or had, the best shrinkage of any of the iron on coverings but it's only about 17%. If you don't start with a wrinkle free surface, you lose a lot of that. The best illustration I saw was a club member that had a SD100 that he had covered with Monokote, but pulled that off and applied some Coverite cloth like material, thinking the surface would provide some tabulation effect. All it took was one winch launch and the whole wing fluttered in a way I haven't seen before or since. He bailed off the launch, landed, and went home to strip the Coverite off. Once it was recovered with Monokote, it was just fine. With what I have seen of most I-beam constructed wings, and all of the ribs that are usually used, I would have no qualms about applying Monokote to an I-beam wing that is built correctly and has adequate area at the wing roots for the covering to be stuck down to. I would have to see a I-beam wing flutter in flight and know that it was properly applied and shrunk correctly. If you start shrinking it with wrinkles in it from the beginning, that is where you run into problems. Too many guys think it has endless ability to shrink and it does not.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Brett Buck]

   I flew R/C sailplanes A LOT back in the 1970's and 1980's, and in that time period a very high percentage of R/C sailplane kits had stressed skin designs. They had pretty light wing structures for the most part, some were D-tube construction. Monokote was more or less mandatory for wing covering so that the wings had enough strength and torsional stiffness to withstand high start and winch launching. Monokote MUST be applied correctly to achieve this. It needs to be stretched as much as possible when attached and wrinkle free from the beginning. In my experience, Monokote has, or had, the best shrinkage of any of the iron on coverings but it's only about 17%.

   That is all right, and Monokote (original) was clearly the stiffest of the iron-ons. But it is far less stiff than a typical dope/silkspan covering that the I-beam was designed around.

    Jim can explain what he did when he gets a chance, but, this airplane has Ultracote.

     Brett

[Dan McEntee]

   That is all right, and Monokote (original) was clearly the stiffest of the iron-ons. But it is far less stiff than a typical dope/silkspan covering that the I-beam was designed around.

    Jim can explain what he did when he gets a chance, but, this airplane has Ultracote.

     Brett

      Well, the I-beam was originated before Super Monokote was conceived. You can still take a silk or silk span covered wing of any kind and twist it to induce wrinkles, the same as you can with a Monokote wing, and shrink those out to remove a warp, on induce one on purpose for adding wash out to a wing tip. I have limited experience with Ultracote, mainly because I didn't think it was upgrade or improvement to Monokote and just seemed heavier, but I never weighed any to be honest. I think either one will still be adequate for a I-beam wing, though, if applied correctly. Sealed all the way around the outer edges, both sides covered to that point, then shrink and adhere to ribs, sheeting, spars, etc. If you know what an Olympic 99 wing ( I've heard that Lee Renaud borrowed the wing from the JASCO Floater for it ) or even an Olympic II sailplane wing looks like, both are very light open bay construction. Most pilots learning to fly stress these wings the most on launches, and when getting into contest work, coming down from altitude in a precision/duration task, can get up to some decent speeds, and I never fluttered a wing or saw anyone have any issues. Later designs adopted the D-tube, but many were still very lightly built and open structures. Again, what I think the I-beam has going for it is all the extra ribs used in the construction that add some to the torsional rigidity even before covering. It's not a lot, but it's there. Some guys , in the search for being as light as possible, used Japanese tissue to cover them with and still were plenty stiff enough. I think the two methods stand about even without doing some sort of testing or measuring. The concept that some have that iron on is easier have never done a good job of it!! Something like Jim has done, might be more work that a paint job. The model still has to be sanded to about the same level of finish or bad work shows through in lumps and bumps. Making patterns, cutting out overlays and such takes time. It may be less messy, but I  don't think much faster. There was a guy from the Detroit area in my sailplane days, Ken Bates, I think his name was, did some outstanding Monokote covering jobs and could actually inlay his trim colors, where you could not feel the seam between colors!! Guys like him and Jim just have the artistic talent to go along with the mechanical ability needed to understand what it takes to apply the materials. Who was it that used to get teased about his paint jobs being Monokote covering, Larry Fernandez?? Uncle Jimby's model would be the opposite of that, with some thinking it was paint over a transparent finish. I would be interested to know how many knife blades and razor blades he went through doing it??

  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Brett Buck]

      Well, the I-beam was originated before Super Monokote was conceived. You can still take a silk or silk span covered wing of any kind and twist it to induce wrinkles, the same as you can with a Monokote wing, and shrink those out to remove a warp, on induce one on purpose for adding wash out to a wing tip.

  Yes, I am well aware of that. I-beams were around in the mid-50s and Super Monokote (iron on VS the original self-adhesive Monokote) was late 60s. After Super Monokote became such a success, the pretenders like SolarFilm and Econokote started appearing, which were nowhere near as good.

     Monokote also gets stiffer over time - to the point it can be brittle and shatter at the slightest touch.

     The latter fact is why you rarely see I-beams any more, outside of classic, and if you do, there are usually some exotic materials to stiffen it up (carbon fiber spars).

      Brett

[fred cesquim]

i have no issues with monokote on i-beam, was skeptical after reading horror stories, but went ahead and tried
so far no sign of stress, even doing sharp corners
wing is regular i-beam, no reinfiorcements and to be honest less wood than usually goes on i-beams
monokote will brittle with years (20 years +) as well as doped paper, only difference is that you just peel off cleanly and add a new covering within a week´s job.

[Brett Buck]

i have no issues with monokote on i-beam, was skeptical after reading horror stories, but went ahead and tried
so far no sign of stress, even doing sharp corners
wing is regular i-beam, no reinfiorcements and to be honest less wood than usually goes on i-beams
monokote will brittle with years (20 years +) as well as doped paper, only difference is that you just peel off cleanly and add a new covering within a week´s job.

    It won't show signs of stress, it just flexes, then flexes back. It's not a matter of it coming apart, it's a matter of it not being stiff enough for consistent performance.

     Brett

[Tim Stagg]

Fred,

Your work if beautiful. What ink do you use for the white of silver line work?

Thanks 

[Ken Culbertson]

it's a matter of it not being stiff enough for consistent performance.

     Brett

Would you say the same thing for SLC over polyspan?

Ken

[Steve Berry]

    It won't show signs of stress, it just flexes, then flexes back. It's not a matter of it coming apart, it's a matter of it not being stiff enough for consistent performance.

     Brett

Tell that to the engineers who designed the B-52. The wings of that aircraft flex so much during takeoff and landing that it could be mistaken for an ornithopter, and that is stressed aluminum paneling.

Steve

[fred cesquim]

    It won't show signs of stress, it just flexes, then flexes back. It's not a matter of it coming apart, it's a matter of it not being stiff enough for consistent performance.

     Brett

it´s flying flawlessly given the plane capability, no F2B pro, but i managed 1st place intermediate and see no bad tendencies due to flexing.

[fred cesquim]

Fred,

Your work if beautiful. What ink do you use for the white of silver line work?

Thanks

thank you! i mix black and white india ink, this way the panelling will stand out over dark or light colors

[FLOYD CARTER]

So, I guess all front row models are  chosen only on the basis of the complexity and color-count of the paint.  Never mind that the plane looks nothing resembling a real plane;  such as, having a lump in top of the fuselage meant to represent some sort of cockpit, even covered in opaque paint.

[Brent Williams]

So, I guess all front row models are  chosen only on the basis of the complexity and color-count of the paint.  Never mind that the plane looks nothing resembling a real plane;  such as, having a lump in top of the fuselage meant to represent some sort of cockpit, even covered in opaque paint.

Sorry Floyd, but that is a ridiculously ignorant and biased way to look at the level of artistry on display.