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Author Topic: Inverted Wingover  (Read 3909 times)

Offline Motorman

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Inverted Wingover
« on: July 30, 2016, 05:38:06 PM »
How do you get good at low inverted pull outs?  I've been pulling out upright faking it with a big radius, looks passable but I'm pulling out at 25' inverted no way to hide that. I noticed I can't put the same english on the handle, just pull down hard and hope the plane knows what to do lol. 

How do you get those 6' pull outs on the reverse wingover, how do you practice that?

MM
Wasted words ain't never been heard. Alman Brothers

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Inverted Wingover
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2016, 06:23:54 PM »
It takes time and practice to develop the reflex action for 5 ft wingover pullouts.  However the inverted pull out is in fact (think about), no different than the upright pullout.  The only difference is in your head.  No I'm not trying to be a smart asX about this, just about everyone has the same problem you're having for a long time with the reverse wingover.  I don't know why it's more difficult than upright but it seems to be, I think because we, and I mean WE think it is.  I solved the problem a long time ago but whenever I lay off for a while it takes about 10 flights to see the inverted pullout the same as the upright.

Body position is very important in my opinion.  Your stance should be with your feet spread standing solid at 90 degrees to the entry and exit!
This allows you to see both the entrance and inverted exit the same way each time.  When you make the wingover entrance from the inverted position do not turn your feet until the airplane passes overhead then quickly turn by pivoting on your right foot (trailing foot) to make the upright exit.

Now to practice...I'm sure a number of people have different ways of dealing with this but my way assumes that the inverted exit is really the same as the upright and that it just has a different perspective in our vision and reaction time.  So...When I go out to practice especially after a layoff in flying, I do a series of "normal" wingovers (single upright) before I attempt the inverted pullout.  I discovered (at least for me) that doing this settles my reflexes and hand-eye coordination so that the inverted pullout after about three or four upright pullouts seems very normal and usually occurs in precisely the same place as the upright pullout.  I always try to get in a flight on contest day (practice) to do this and it closes the loop for me and makes it seem easy.  Remember you're looking for consistency.  My biggest problem used to be low pullouts and you can hear the crowd go Ahhhhhh.  Doesn't help your score!!  LL~  HB~>

When you nail it you will feel the "moment" and it gets easier after that!   Probably not necessary to say this but relaxed concentration is the real key to the stunt pattern on all maneuvers especially the reverse wingover.  Also I think it sets the tone of the pattern (and your score)
for both you and the judges!

Now if I could just get the size and intersection of the overhead eights MY scores might improve significantly.

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Inverted Wingover
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2016, 06:26:56 PM »
Practice practice and more practice.

I seem to be nearly alone in advocating practicing the same maneuver over and over again in one flight, but -- do it.  Keep in mind that if you plant your feet and do the wingover across your body, you'll build up one outside loop's worth of line twist each time.  When I do this for serious I'll do wingover, inside, outside, wingover, inside, outside, triangle, repeat.  That keeps lines untwisted.  The "inside outside" part can be either round or square loops, whichever ones you need more practice on at the moment (By the way: believe me -- just doing round loops and getting them perfect will help tremendously on all maneuvers with round elements.  Ditto squares and square 8's, and triangles and hourglasses).

If you're like me, you'll find that first you have to learn to get it right at all, and then it'll take about 50 or 100 flights before you can come in cold and nail it on the very first wingover of the flight.  The downside of practicing more than one wingover each flight is knowing that you can nail it, but not being able to do it on the first maneuver.

I found that visualizing what I'm going to do before the maneuver helped -- but not to start nailing it immediately, just to start doing better in 100 flights instead of 200.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Inverted Wingover
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2016, 06:27:59 PM »
It takes time and practice to develop the reflex action for 5 ft wingover pullouts.  However the inverted pull out is in fact (think about), no different than the upright pullout.

For me at least I think the inverted pullout was only difficulter because it comes first.  It's hard to tell, because I never practiced plain ol' wingovers once I started flying the full pattern.
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Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Inverted Wingover
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2016, 07:03:18 PM »
Not advice, but some explanation.  Inverted can be more difficult than upright because of the hand and wrist action.  More so if you use any "pistol" in your hand position.  Radial flexion or deviation at the wrist is easier than ulnar, and easier to get more throw.  If you start needing arm/elbow motion, it becomes a coarser motion and a few more joints and muscles involved, and a little more to finesse. You may be hand/wrist for up and shoulder, elbow, wrist and hand for down.  Of course line width and "gearing" of controls can also affect that.
Fred
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Offline M Spencer

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Re: Inverted Wingover
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2016, 08:22:08 AM »
And I thought you were talking about underground wingovers !

If Theres a Hill of a field ( preferably Downhill ) you fly Half Over the drop ( at the edge ) if the winds that way .
You can still cock it up and pull out undergroud ( level ) that way , to get ' Hitting It ' - 6 or 5 ft. consistantly
tho youve gotta watch the bank on the way back , to low .

The Whole Wingover undergroud apparently you need a tall flgpole , and good balance and line tension ,
as theres not a lot of room to back off .  LL~ :## Even a cliff'd be good , but errors could lead to tears.

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Inverted Wingover
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2016, 08:32:26 AM »
 ;D  Man ..... that's the exact question I ask myself about the Vertical Eight  :-\!!  My pointing towards the ground after the top portion of the eight sends shivers through the lines and panic to the handle :o!  Why do I panic .... I have plenty of superglue  LL~ LL~

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Inverted Wingover
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2016, 10:02:33 AM »
When I watch a world-class flyer through the pattern, my first thought is "Wow..he's not afraid of the ground".  and that's what it takes.

To be unafraid of the ground requires practice with a plane you don't mind sticking into the turf.  Once your confidence level gets to where you just KNOW you can pull out at 5 feet, either upright or inverted, then switch to your contest plane.

Just before the inverted pull-out, I know what goes through your mind.  It's "oh no!  I'm going to cream my best plane that I've spent so much time building and finishing".  That inhibits low pull-outs, and you will never improve your "bottoms" always flying your pride and joy.

Floyd
91 years, but still going
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Offline M Spencer

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Re: Inverted Wingover
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2016, 10:58:22 AM »
Flying Lately with pains from movements , you appreciate how distracting THINGS can be , and how when you arnt , your Not Distracted .

Approximately , we're 20 Ft / Sec . looking at the blonde , while in the wingover , can throw the timing out .  :(

BUT another WAY of looking at it , is Each Foot ( No Distance ) is 1 / 20 th of a sec , whereby you see YOU need to be FOCUSED .
A good Combat Wing'll get ya focused real quick .
Now Where were we .  ;D

Primary Focus / attention - ON the AIRCRAFT . Practising the mental state like a quick draw , IMAGINE Your Doing It . Or Neutral State ( of mind , If I THROW into the waste paper bin , Do It . Thinking About it I Cant )
THEREFORE all peripheral inputs ( visual / Attenention ELSEWHERE must be eliminated ( From the mind & Vision - I guess ) as theyre impediments or obstacles to having your WHOLE FOCUS on the area of flight .

Just like riding a cone slow ride test on a M'Cycle in a carpark . There the vision is on AHEAD ( Itd be on the Flightpath in our case ) and physically the shouldes & fingertips . pretty much the same physically then .

SO , the Easy Way - say theres a light pole ( or throw a 5 ft stick in the turf . Whistle Along and hit UP . Not the Vertical & the Stick , lateral deviation . hit it a few , miss it a few , laps .

Dial in your distance / cross eyed - FOCUS , so your reflex times get matched to the plane vertical At , or within a foot or two , of the stick . Id Just Nose Down 7 around again after shes run straight vertical steady .

Is A Thread About Groovey Aeroplanes -  ;D Nose Heavy helps , where let of in a Sq turn , itll track straight & true , on a steady hand / arm FOLLOWING the flight path ( For Same Reletive control posn . )
If the hand isnt tracking with the aeroplane , the divergance's pulling a wire & steering it off - course .

if there is a light pole , with a Light ( or BLOB ) up there clear of the ground , freehand , dogfighting around Ea Time you Track Across past it , you should be able to INTERSECT it ( Thread the Needle ) on ANY course .

So if the planes comfortable there , and your ' Zen ' focused , as we've seen it called . Stilled the Mind . All irrelevant conciousness  discarded - you should consistantly be able to get a ' Intersectin ' anywhere up there
( a Fixed Referance Point ) and the flight track , to be darn close .
Comfortable There ,
Tracking at a offset to it , you should hit a 90 degree turn , where the ( flight )  line from the exit  intersects it . VERY GOOD . But id do The first line say 20 Ft ' down ' from it , so your 20 ft from , at perpendicular ,
as you track across ' your spot . AS theres no neck twisting involved ' jumping ' 20 ft . Visually  . Probly my focus is a 60 ft wide cone , plane distance .

BUT . ( Gee scribbling trickers the anaylisis of whats been going on , flying - lately .

IF your in a Lancaster Rear Turret , your Vision of ' Movement in the Void ' is much netter if you OFF FOCUS . With Your Head Thrown Right Back , the natural enzymes ( o.k. some bl**dy thing ) would detect the Ju88 creeping in the dark.

Thus , the STANCE . Feet a few feet apart , almost . Legs Braced . Shoulders Square to the aeroplane , your piviting your torso at the hips - SO the upper bodys ' with ' the flight path . but ,
If You Trow your head back , in the HORIZONTAL Eights , your vision encomposes most of the manouvre , with minimal upper body displacement . And you dont need to LOOK for 88s .  LL~ :-X

The turkey ( a rear gunner ) in his book , said he uses this Driving , seated so your comfortable semi iinclined ( on highways  - NOT dirt Roads ) so your heads ( neck ) is comfortable aft , AS
the scenarion afore you is in your LOWER Vision , you detect far more astutely all the goings on , without dabbling about with the eyeballs . Believe it or not .

Getting BACK to the POINT .  S?P of EXIT from the vertical Downward leg , the stance is pretty much As Described .
Bob Hunts flying models series on execution of manouvres , He Leaves the WINGOVER untill the LAST ' Chapter ' .
                    so , if ya can Find It , READ IT . ( ive bin thinkin of copying the series & posting it here in order ) .

Its possable , if you get your feet ahead of yourself - to havem 2 ft apart ON the intecese line , so you just swing around 180 deg ONCE during the entire manouver . As you arc across the top the second time
1/4 segment (at ) before ground , theyre FIXED agian .and your head hasnt snapped right down , level out of the turns across your lower vision , where your sights superior .

Needless to say , get all the bodly language , head movements ,  etcdown pat BEFORe you go out to the flight field . So theyre easy fluid , if deliberate , movements .

you tend to let your vision sit steady , shift it to thetop of the circle ahead of the plane , track across , shift it to the pull out and recovery area ,alow the plane to come down so at ' X ' feet ( say our 20 ft, or a slow turn 25 )
hit it , and it comes out of the turn tracking across into our central vision , whereby you lift a foot and swing around ahead of it again .

Sheeshe .  . its 3 am , I think I wil get out on the back lawn and practise .

Basically theres a body stance for Ea Manoubre , and Bobs articals on Ea Manouvre Covered This . The Weight Placement on Ea Foot is part of it . So It IS Aerobics , after all .  %^@ VD~ S?P

The Great Peter Ustenov's  :( :-\ ;) Footwork , or lack off , in slow motion , in Wingover ( head ) . Dunno if Micheal Jackson'd manadge this .


 
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 05:02:39 AM by Matt Spencer »

Offline Motorman

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Re: Inverted Wingover
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2016, 12:11:54 PM »
Thanks Matt, I never thought of that. Look at your spot and let the plane come down into it.


MM
Wasted words ain't never been heard. Alman Brothers

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Inverted Wingover
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2016, 02:29:22 PM »
  It isn't any different that an outside square. Sam rules apply, just different entry point. Should be easier, since you have more time to prepare for a look for the pull out point. Model should turn outside  the same as inside. If it doesn't, fix it. If you can do the up right pull out, you should be able to to the inverted unless there is a psychological influence and there is for most people learning the pattern. and inverted pull outs should be at 5 feet, the same as upright pull outs and level flight.
  Type at you later,
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Offline Shug Emery

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Re: Inverted Wingover
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2016, 06:15:06 PM »
I remember Dan Banjock talking about using the angle of his arm as opposed to watching just the plane. This has been my technique after hearing that. Surprisingly the arm seems pretty  straight....not exactly..but more-so than you would think.
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Inverted Wingover
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2016, 06:18:20 PM »
  It isn't any different that an outside square. Sam rules apply, just different entry point. Should be easier, since you have more time to prepare for a look for the pull out point. Model should turn outside  the same as inside. If it doesn't, fix it. If you can do the up right pull out, you should be able to to the inverted unless there is a psychological influence and there is for most people learning the pattern. and inverted pull outs should be at 5 feet, the same as upright pull outs and level flight.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee


Good point Dan,
Not that I'm great at it but I just started doing outside squares over and over and over with a ringmaster doing around 4 sec laps. After a while I got over the fear, then with a nicer PA plane, the whole world felt slower, and didn't seem so nerve wracking

Offline Motorman

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Re: Inverted Wingover
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2016, 07:24:17 PM »
My circle the tree line is right there so, you come down from bright blue sky to dark green trees and it's hard to tell where the ground is. Maybe I'll get some of that yellow police tape and line the circle.

The plane's going faster in a wing over right? I think I remember someone said our planes won't do a 5' radius turn? When do you start the pull out 15'?

MM
Wasted words ain't never been heard. Alman Brothers

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Inverted Wingover
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2016, 10:31:26 PM »
My circle the tree line is right there so, you come down from bright blue sky to dark green trees and it's hard to tell where the ground is. Maybe I'll get some of that yellow police tape and line the circle.

The plane's going faster in a wing over right? I think I remember someone said our planes won't do a 5' radius turn? When do you start the pull out 15'?

MM

I actually don't know. Maybe 8 feet? I just take whatever plane I'm flying for practice and do like Tim said. Fly an entire flight of each maneuver until I feel out the plane.  I've never flown the full pattern on a maiden flight. Not that brave I guess?

Offline Motorman

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Re: Inverted Wingover
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2016, 09:50:08 AM »
I know on some of my planes with high wing loading you can make the plane horizontal but it keeps going down LOL.


MM
Wasted words ain't never been heard. Alman Brothers

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Inverted Wingover
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2016, 11:06:51 AM »
The plane's going faster in a wing over right? I think I remember someone said our planes won't do a 5' radius turn? When do you start the pull out 15'?

You have to learn what the plane wants to do.  This is why I suggested that you dedicate a flight to just one or a few maneuvers (you can't do just one because your lines will wind up).

Start the pull out where you need to start it -- which you have to learn by doing, over and over.
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Offline M Spencer

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Re: Inverted Wingover
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2016, 11:29:28 AM »
Niet ; Nien : NOT THAT LOW , on yer AVERAGE SHIP . a Good Light Gieske nobler , Id Guess at 18 ft . + . 20 for starters . !  %^@

IF your doing TWENTY FOOT / Sec , The TIME From ' Neutral ' to ' Full Turn ' unless your Bruce Lee , or feel onto it , is about 0.3 Seconds , or SIX FEET ! Which Yr need to ' compensate ' for . Unless your a teenager in the uper 50 5
fitness group . i.e. Athletic . Computer Game types mightnt have the muscle for a over . 40 ship , Like a Lumberjack .  S?P

After having burnt myrids of gallons of fuel , I turned up at a Comp. in N.Z. , with my ' Hurricane ' ish ( an Earlier one ) Orientalish wing . 4 Ft , an inch or two of tip , 10 in chord . The Rear Fuse lengthened 2 1/2 , Flaps 10 in. long ,
( Beringer  ;D) and the GP 40 Replaced by a good 51 with a few hours on it . The ' old woman ' steered me into beginner stunt , which Id never Flown . Done the full schedule regularly 30 yrs earlier .  ANYWAY , it WEIGHED 72 Oz.

Quite a good flyer in good air , with the outer foot of ea wing unencumbered by ' pressure ' and things from flaps , it'd mush , and Have to Be FLOWN , Like Finger Tips on the steering wheel ( or Bars ) FLY the Turns , NOT hit
FULL UP or DOWN ,  . . .

With that youd EASE control in in the wingover at around say 25 ft. Alt . ( or More ) Being cheeky , in the wingovers last corner , I weaited a bit / A few Feet , and Slammed On FULL UP , at 22 Ft . ( doimg say a 4.7 - 4.8 lap )
The Small flaps have little couter control to the main elevator , The Pressure under the wings in the center HALF of the Aerople . The G 51s healthy & Steady , Id think on a black 10 x 6 3 Blade Grish .

SO . . .  The First 7 or 8 foot the planes rotateing. 90 Degrees , The SECOND 7 or 8 ft , The Good Ole STEADY THRUST ( Over The Wing & Elevator ) afe Flying it through a nice steady radius fwd, Despite the fact its already flat horizontal , going down like a lift , but fwd equally well .  LL~ LL~ to a few Ft Low on the ' exit ' upright .

SO . . . If Your PLANE is a FEATHER ( Weight )  or belongs to Bill wewage ! , try the hitting the control late . I find its about 6 ft above the eaves of nearby buiildings , getting down a few ft more . which is still 2 ft above their gutters .
So That IS 13 Ft Min , but THAT is " 0.6 seconds - > . Fine on a ' tooned ' Light responsive groovey plane , but 80 % of flights Ive Observed ( at Comps ) theres a degree of waver , and IRegularity . As in the Bottoms on over half
the flights Vary By MORe than ONE FOOT , Ea Way . ( or 1/20th Sec. Ea Way up or Down , with the Odd ' WHOOPSIE ' where the cock it up by three foot or so ,  One Seventh of a Sec. Odd .

Start Around Twenty Ft . Youll Find the bottoms around NINE , giving you Three High , ( over your 5 or 6 ' level ' ) which aint a lot .

WHEN your Getting Em CONSISTANT ( The Tragectory Fwd AFTER the Turns Hight ) i.e. Youre at 10 Ft at EVERY Pullout , or withing FIVE Feet of One Hight / Youll Know your ' Tolerances . If You Aint Within 6 Ft variation Consistantly
Dont Try For 6 Ft Level Out of it , as the Odd One thats OVER Six Foot Out is Subteraenian .  LL~ LL~ S?P

Strewth , whos the Olde woman . Get a good Hack Out , Throw In plenty of Nitro to keep the fires lit , and give it grief . the odd bounce ( If the undercarrage is glued in good ) wont worry it .

Save the wooden props & wing mounted gear for later . The hurricane , distractedin a gust (Less than 100 % Attentin ) Clouted the deck banked out and clawing for air , Id Thought Id seen a prop blade go right back .
Tasmanian Oak 1/4 Sq Spars with a shear web , silk covered . Finished the flight .
Outer  wheel and leg where where Itd Left Them , & the 13 X 5 / APC had a white whelt across one blade , a few inches out . this was out at the coast where the air rolls and tumbles .

One of these FAI Combat Wings with a Fox 35 ( or Equal ) on 60s is the way to go for ' exploring the realm , as at times you find its limits . If your Heavy Ships are glued well 7 'll ' Take the Blows , giving them a few good knocks
wont kill them . HARD GROUND WILL . The Phntom went in Twenty Times or more . i cant believe I believed Id replaced the Canopy a dozen times . But I think maybe thats right . Flown All Seasons . the GROND is definately HARDER in SUMMER .

6 in penetration in winter , you get away with . When in the same situation it stops in Half an Inch , the decellerations considerably higher - and repairs longer & more Complex .
Leaping and whacking the handle BACK takes a lot of inertia oput of The HIT , paticularly if its free flighting . Ignoring that , even on V Soft Ground , if it goes in semi sidways ,
Oh Dear .

Imagine jumping off a 12 foot verandah , and landing on your Feet .
Not To Hard .
Jump off sideways and land on your shoulder , or hip , or both , isnt advised .
Situation with the plane is similar , a ' Square ' or Glancing ' inline ' blow is distributed evenly / symetrically throughout the Airframe ( Or Undercarrage Mount  S?P LL~ & adjacent area )
ALL that SHOCK at an offset on one points Wracking the snot out of it . unfortunately .

What the heck , a good light 4 ft span .25 or .35 plane will do it all good , IF you ALLOW a MARGIN for ERROR .
Combat Delinquent Teenager , Find The Planes Turning Diameter . Stay Over that Hight turning / Manouvering .

Approaching / At - that hight ( evading / attacking ) FULL CONTROL ( Top Or Bottom ) untill it was 30 to 60 degree Nose Up TECNICALLY had you Uncrashed . ( Brawling blocking and line tangles however stuffed the odds  >:()

But That Theory clowning with say a Profile Peacemaker , or combat wing ( on 60 ft if its calm - For Airspace & time / distance advantage ) will do the trick , if its under 14 1/2 Ounce , like a new fangled combat wing, with a loading of
FIVE OUNCES / Sq. Ft. ?? !  %^@

Or , not to put to finer point on it , hit full up or down at TWENTY FOOT ( not Later ) at First . If Easing the Corner ,  ( Flyingthe Radius ) you may / should still clear the deck . usually .  R%%%%
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 12:21:39 PM by Matt Spencer »

Offline Jim Carter

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Re: Inverted Wingover
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2016, 04:34:03 PM »
Flying Lately with pains from movements , you appreciate how distracting THINGS can be , and how when you arnt , your Not Distracted .

Primary Focus / attention - ON the AIRCRAFT . Practising the mental state like a quick draw , IMAGINE Your Doing It . Or Neutral State ( of mind , If I THROW into the waste paper bin , Do It . Thinking About it I Cant ) ....
Man!!  ;D ;D That's awesome!  ;D ;D  After seeing that, I just had to go out and try it myself  ;)  Ever heard of "lawn dart"!!   LL~ LL~  I'm so grateful for superglue  LL~ LL~

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Inverted Wingover
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2016, 06:52:11 PM »
Watch the model corner into the climb, turn your head and watch for the plane to come back down into your field of view. The plane should track straight over the top, if you don't tip your head back and try to watch it go, and you may not put an "S" into the track. Picking up both the plane and the ground in your view early enough to get a sense of timing is what helps. Believe it or not, your handle spacing will affect your "bottoms". If your "bottoms" are too high, try narrowing the handle spacing. I think it's best to change this sort of thing before your first flight of the day, maybe even after a few days of not flying. The idea is to avoid bringing "muscle memory" into the mix.  D>K Steve
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