Author Topic: Intermediate Stunt (Read 2030 times)

Gary Alspaugh · « **on:** July 15, 2020, 04:02:26 PM »

How is it possible that a guy that flew the Advanced class last year won Intermediate Stunt this year. Had me puzzled!

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #1 on:** July 15, 2020, 04:56:14 PM »

Hi Gary. I don't know any specifics about which you are speaking and it sounds strange. However it's conceivable a Beginner could enter Open, realize they found themselves in the wrong class and next time enter something more appropriate for them. One thing for sure, this person having won, should move on up to the next class next time. Sandbagging in a lower class would seem not too satisfying to me.

Dave

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #2 on:** July 15, 2020, 05:10:40 PM »

Quote from: Gary Alspaugh on July 15, 2020, 04:02:26 PM

How is it possible that a guy that flew the Advanced class last year won Intermediate Stunt this year. Had me puzzled!

Advance does not specify direction. Intermediate is in between so next year he will be after the Beginner's trophy.

I saw those scores yesterday and thought they were a bit high.

Personally I would rather place last in the group I belong in that win the one I don't.

Ken

James Mills · « **Reply #3 on:** July 15, 2020, 08:33:14 PM »

Ben did not win Intermediat but when he decided to move up and fly Advanced he/we were told that he could not return to Intermediate following years.

James

Gary Alspaugh · « **Reply #4 on:** July 15, 2020, 10:08:34 PM »

Not talking about Ben..

john e. holliday · « **Reply #5 on:** July 15, 2020, 10:23:56 PM »

Well who ever it was has his own conscience to live with. I moved to advance and my scores went up even though my flying has not improved.

Joseph Patterson · « **Reply #6 on:** July 15, 2020, 10:44:41 PM »

Was the young man in question a JR. flier last year and only flew JR/SR EVENT, or did he also really compete in ADVANCE before the J/S competition. I was there but don't remember.
Doug

Dan Berry · « **Reply #7 on:** July 16, 2020, 06:45:23 AM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on July 15, 2020, 10:23:56 PM

Well who ever it was has his own conscience to live with. I moved to advance and my scores went up even though my flying has not improved.

My kid brother told me that he experienced the same phenomenon. Literally overnight at the Nats.

Joseph Patterson · « **Reply #8 on:** July 16, 2020, 07:35:10 AM »

Quote from: Joseph Patterson on July 15, 2020, 10:44:41 PM

Was the young man in question a JR. flier last year and only flew JR/SR EVENT, or did he also really compete in ADVANCE before the J/S competition. I was there but don't remember.
Doug

I was able to look back on cell phone pics of last year's 2019 NAT'S and the young man participated in Intermediate, JR/SR, and last but not least ADVANCE. I think he finished second to the Daly boy in JR./SR competition. I'm not sure, but I don't think he made it to the Adv. finals. I do not have a pic of the Adv. finals score board. Since the young man competed in the same way again, I'm wondering if they are rationalizing that since the INTERMEDIATE event is a AMA non-sanctioned event it is OK. Kind of a letter of law - spirit of law thing...
Doug

John Leidle · « **Reply #9 on:** July 16, 2020, 08:09:16 AM »

We have had guys around here go in & out of Expert - Advanced. I'm in question , did he actually do something wrong? I end up dead last in Open every year are you gonna whomp on me if I drop back to fly advanced?
Lot of guys fly Expert and fly Advanced at the Nats .
John L.

David Ebers · « **Reply #10 on:** July 16, 2020, 09:12:12 AM »

He also entered the F2B team trials as a Jr.

I have a different take on this. Maybe the young man wants to fly as much stunt as he can. I wish that my sons and grandkids had the interest and enthusiasm as this kid. Where else can he get better coaching, judging and encouragement than the Nats? To compete in JR/SR and Advanced at the NATS he must build his own airplane (wow, this kid has the stunt bug really bad).

Congratulations Luca. Great job winning intermediate. Keep it up and you may be a F2B JR and/or SR World Champion representing the US of A some day.

Mike Haverly · « **Reply #11 on:** July 16, 2020, 09:21:22 AM »

He did nothing wrong. Most likely found out he wasn't ready for advanced and dropped back. Being young there is no hurry. Confidence is important, it's hard to win without it.

Sean McEntee · « **Reply #12 on:** July 16, 2020, 09:34:39 AM »

Generally speaking, it is common for contestants to move down one skill class at the nats from the skill class that they normally fly at the local level (e.g. Advanced flyers move down to Intermediate). It is also possible for a contestant to move down skill classes at the Nat's (such as from open to Advanced or from advanced to intermediate) if their scores were far below the pack in previous years.

In this particular case, in my opinion, it a moot point. He won Intermediate...time to move up!

peabody · « **Reply #13 on:** July 16, 2020, 11:18:17 AM »

There are rules in the AMA rule book about this...

Peter in Fairfax, VA · « **Reply #14 on:** July 16, 2020, 11:59:54 AM »

Myself, I've much enjoyed the opportunity to compete against Luca. My first contest in a long time, and only my second stunt contest ever, was Brodak's last year. The bottoms of Luca's maneuvers were much lower and more accurate, providing a good example. That was in profile, the first event of the week. I practiced a lot that week, then did better later that week when there was the second profile-or-whatever event. The whole Alimov crew helped with launching, coaching, etc. The experience of being edged out of third place by Luca in the last round later in the week helped prepare me for contests later in the season.

To me, David's point makes complete sense and is well articulated. Entering the Sunday contest, then the Wed-Thu+ contest gives more opportunities to compete, contributing to development.

Peter

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #15 on:** July 16, 2020, 12:15:53 PM »

The top 4 in Intermediate scored well over 400. A 485 is really a sloppy expert pattern or even a good one in crappy weather. That is what Advanced is all about but look at Advanced. Lots of low end Expert scores there. Scores don't mean much other than to rank you as you fly against your peers. Given the number of others scoring high it might just have been the judges were more forgiving but they were definitely not flying against their peers. Having inflated scores at the lower levels really discourages up and coming fliers from coming to the NATS.

Or Not - ken

John Leidle · « **Reply #16 on:** July 16, 2020, 12:20:26 PM »

Well said David.
John L.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #17 on:** July 16, 2020, 06:47:38 PM »

Quote from: Ken Culbertson on July 16, 2020, 12:15:53 PM

The top 4 in Intermediate scored well over 400. A 485 is really a sloppy expert pattern or even a good one in crappy weather. That is what Advanced is all about but look at Advanced. Lots of low end Expert scores there. Scores don't mean much other than to rank you as you fly against your peers. Given the number of others scoring high it might just have been the judges were more forgiving but they were definitely not flying against their peers. Having inflated scores at the lower levels really discourages up and coming fliers from coming to the NATS.

I don't know about that last bit, but this happens most of the time at the NATs. There's no need to accommodate a wide range of skills, so the judges tend to use the full range. It doesn't hurt anything very much except when people look at it from the outside. If the pilots were ranked correctly, it worked.

Brett

Brett Buck · « **Reply #18 on:** July 16, 2020, 07:02:48 PM »

Quote from: Mike Haverly on July 16, 2020, 09:21:22 AM

He did nothing wrong. Most likely found out he wasn't ready for advanced and dropped back. Being young there is no hurry. Confidence is important, it's hard to win without it.

As much as it pains me to say it, like any stopped clock, Peabody is at least sort of right. You aren't supposed to go "backwards" without extraordinary circumstances and agreement from experienced CDs or PAMPA EC members.

It *is* different at the NATs, given that there is only Advanced and J/S/O and no official BEG/INtEXP. This illustrates a problem we have had from the very beginning, specifically, the advancement rules are *voluntary* with very rare exceptions, but are frequently "forced" advancement rules applied locally that force people up involuntarily (like win one contest in Advanced with a score above 500, and you are "automatically" advanced). Typically you have 50-75% of the entry in Expert, almost all the rest in advanced, and occasional beginners and intermediates. That's heavily broken and is inconsistent with the intent.

It has the biggest effect in Upper Advanced/Lower Expert where good local Advanced fliers are forced into Expert (prematurely in my opinion) and then get lost when they get frustrated.

The advancement rules were intended to be voluntary but one-way. To me, it is clear that the skill class rules are hopelessly broken by peer-pressure and "forced" advancement rules, with everyone packed up into two classes. I have suggested a few potential fixes but they haven't really resonated with many people, and a lot of people have no idea what the rules say now, despite having been mostly unchanged for nearly 50 years. It certainly doesn't affect me personally, so, I have dropped any notion of trying to fix it officially. It's going to get fixed anyway when the CDs start doing largely as I suggested by combining BEG/INT, just to save buying trophies that they later throw away.

Brett

James Mills · « **Reply #19 on:** July 16, 2020, 08:28:39 PM »

Quote from: Gary Alspaugh on July 15, 2020, 10:08:34 PM

Not talking about Ben..

I know you weren't refering to Ben, just sharing what information was shared with us when he made the decision to move up.

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #20 on:** July 16, 2020, 08:30:13 PM »

Advanced at the Nats is not a skill level at all. It is not the PAMPA skill level Advanced. The only person that cannot enter Advanced at the Nats are previous winners. Even this is an unwritten rule.

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #21 on:** July 16, 2020, 09:02:31 PM »

Quote from: John Leidle on July 16, 2020, 08:09:16 AM

We have had guys around here go in & out of Expert - Advanced. I'm in question , did he actually do something wrong? I end up dead last in Open every year are you gonna whomp on me if I drop back to fly advanced?
Lot of guys fly Expert and fly Advanced at the Nats .
John L.

John, if you're thinking of ME (and I really don't think you are)...I haven't flown a lot in the last 5 or so years, but when I get to a contest, I usually ask the CD if they'd like me to enter Expert and judge Advanced, or enter Advanced and judge Expert, or carry score sheets and don't judge at all. And then I mark the event per their wishes, if I heard them correctly and remembered what I think they said!

Steve

John Leidle · « **Reply #22 on:** July 16, 2020, 09:13:50 PM »

I think I'm alone here as to thinking if we must keep Beginner so be it it probably is a good thing after that I'd like to have everybody fly Open. I believe when Intermediate was first flown at the Nats their was a whole lot more flyers in it maybe 25 maybe not , both Advanced & Intermediate has downsized. I don't see enough pilots in the classes to keep it interesting .
John L.
P.S. Steve wasn't referring to anyone particular ... I'd like to see you compete more often,, yes.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #23 on:** July 17, 2020, 09:55:57 AM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on July 16, 2020, 06:47:38 PM

I don't know about that last bit, but this happens most of the time at the NATs. There's no need to accommodate a wide range of skills, so the judges tend to use the full range. It doesn't hurt anything very much except when people look at it from the outside. If the pilots were ranked correctly, it worked.

Brett

I have heard that comment made. In fact when I returned to competition a lot of people wanted me to fly Advanced for a year to get a few wins. Personally I don't think that Advanced is any place for old fart Experts on the way down. It is for hot shot new guys on the way up.

As to your last comment:
Aside from your being right, I think we would benefit greatly from going to an Ordinal system based on raw score. It would eliminate the problem, mostly at local levels (but I have heard it has happened at the Nats as well) where one judge is dramatically different from the other(s) but this is not the thread to discuss that.

Ken