Insight into manufacturing a kit

[LARRY RICE]

In the "Classifieds" section there is an argument over the purchase of a Black Hawk Models Stunt Rocket kit.  Some saying to buy from Black Hawk Models and some saying to buy from someone who bought the kit and no-longer wants it.  I thought that I would set out some facts about our kit manufacturing.
      When we decide  to put a kit into production, and that kit is to be laser cut, we invest a fairly large amount of time and money into it.  By the time that the cad work is done, the prototype is made and flown, the plans are drawn and printed, the boxes are cut, the instructions and labels are printed and the first 50 kits have arrived, we need to sell 50+ kits to break even (that is partly because we do everything to keep a high quality kit at the lowest price). 
     Well with that said, Black Hawk Models sells to dealers and if you buy from a dealer you will help keep that dealer in business.  We can not afford to lose more dealers, but if you can not afford a kit and need to get the best deal I understand, just remember that other people have been in the kit and there is always that they may have lost or damaged parts.
      I SUPPORT THE FUN PART OF THE HOBBY AND ALL OF THOSE WHO ENJOY IT.
Larry
Black Hawk Models

[Clint Ormosen]

Keep up the nice work, Larry. I have several Blackhawk kits purchased through distributors. My daughters loved building there Hollow Log kits!

[Dan Labine]

Hi Larry..

Keep up the good work. Your kits are awesome. The Stunt Rocket is a beautiful kit. I have several of your kits and for the price I get a great investment in "fun"..

Dan

[pat king]

Larry is dead on. I do not make any money on the kits I produce. If I count my time for doing the CAD plans I lose money. I am doing it as a fun thing, so I don't really have to make a profit. If I was selling kits as a serious business I would have to charge more. Brodak is selling a Ringmaster Jr. kit for $24.99 more than I am. His includes an instruction book, pre formed landing gear, and a decal. Mine has parts and plans to build the airplane as fuel or electric powered. The plans have full scale templates of all parts. The kit includes the wire for the gear, and a partially formed leading edge. Today's laser cut kits are so far beyond the quality of the original kits I tell people that if they are not a kit collector they should sell their original kit and build a modern laser cut version. If we do not support the C/L suppliers we have today we may not have them tomorrow.

Pat

[peabody]

Ah come on guys.....we all know that you buy balsa for about 1/4 what we do and stuff it into something that looks like a wood chipper and out the other end comes a complete kit.....

[john e. holliday]

Keep dreaming Mr. P.,  if we bought as much balsa as they do, we could get a better price.   But, in reality I don't think they are getting that much of a brake.

[Joe Just]

Or even a break Doc.

Cottage production of CL kits is a labor of love. Profit production of CL kits is a labor of love and a fingers crossing hope to make a profit.

Joe Just

[GGeezer]

I have a small free flight manufacturing business and I have been able to turn a profit.
Ya wanna know my secret?
I SIMPLY PAY MYSELF AND MY PARTNER CHINESE WAGES!

The Gizmogeezer

[Geoff Goodworth]

I suspect that Peabody forgot to finish with the [/sarc] tag.

[Tim Wescott]

The Gizmogeezer

I've been wondering if you were the Gizmogeezer!

I'm coming out of a long modeling drought, starting up again now that #1 son is old enough that we can legally abandon him by the side of the road.  All the time that I've been unable to do much more than fly sport RC I've been drooling over magazine ads and columns.

Next thing after I establish myself in control line stunt is finally graduating to free flight, at which point (assuming that we're both still around!) I may be getting some of your excellent props.

[LARRY RICE]

We are currently selling 1000 kits this year which keeps all of the bills paid.  Two years ago, before the depression, we sold 1500 kits and I was able to pay dividends, replace some tools and look towards expanding.  Well good times are coming.

Larry
Black Hawk Models

[ChrisSarnowski]

I wouldn't worry too much about Larry's profit being too big. Let's say the average kit is $35 and its 100% profit. At a 1000 kits a year it is not a get rich quick scheme.

-Chris

[LARRY RICE]

The Stunt Rocket list through dealers at $100.00, dealers buy it from Black Hawk Models for $60.00 and pay the shipping.  I will not go into our cost of the kit but to say that our profit margin is very low on this kit is an understatement.  In any other business this kit would sell for $300.00 and produce a fair profit but since it is hard to sell it at $100.00 we depend on selling a lot of kits at a small mark up.  The advantage of it being laser cut is that we do not have a lot of hands on work to do in each kit. 
      In the other thread someone suggested scratch building this kit to save money.  There is so much wood, hardware, wire, and silk span in this kit that I do not believe that a person would save anything by cutting out 28 ribs, several bulkheads, tail parts and so on.  If you can do it ... go for it.
     We are currently working on a "Mini Stunt Rocket" for .049 engines, due out late this year.
Larry

[Dick Pacini]

Larry, how much does it cost you to make the kit mentioned the deleted thread?  How much is your profit?

Thanks.

How is that any business of anyone other than Larry and his accountant? 

[LARRY RICE]

Here is the way to make some money:
order 1500 bellcranks at a time
$1000.00 of wood at a time
Buy large bundles of cardboard and cut your own boxes
Make the best kit that you can and sell it for as little as you can
Get good workers who donate part of their pay to helping kids get the models
order 3000 screws at a time
order 20 sheets of plastic for windshields
Invest in a good laser printer

and lastly ... count every penny.  
I forgot, one more thing; treat your customers like family.  3 times a week almost every week I get request for free items: "I am building a scratch model and I need a bellcrank, can you send me one" or a cowling, lead-out wires, eyelets or wheels. We try to fill all of the request and even give away control handles and line when it is needed.

Larry

[Douglas Ames]

Larry-

We/ I appreciate your efforts in producing quality kits. Quality sells. (period)
Unfortunately the economy sucks, and our Congress managing it is even worse. Hopefully things will recover soon. My A'Airline employer's stock is hovering at $1.65. I could be a French fry technician a year from now?

Hang in there.

[Scott Richlen]

Larry:

How about some pictures of the mini-Stunt Rocket?  I would love to see it!

My first plane was a Stunt-Master with Cox 049.  Ooooh those Top-Flite nylon 6-4s were sharp.  My poor little 5th grade fingers suffered awful....

Scott

[LARRY RICE]

We are waiting for the second protype to come in from the laser cutter and it will be built and test flown, then any changes that is need to be made will be.  So ... no pictures yet.  Here is the big one and the mini will be very similar except that it will be a profile model.

Larry

[Mike Mulligan]

In the other thread someone suggested scratch building this kit to save money.  There is so much wood, hardware, wire, and silk span in this kit that I do not believe that a person would save anything by cutting out 28 ribs, several bulkheads, tail parts and so on.  If you can do it ... go for it.
     We are currently working on a "Mini Stunt Rocket" for .049 engines, due out late this year.
Larry

I couldn't agree more. I built my Stunt Rocket from plans a few months before Larry's kit was released, and it is a pretty 'busy' model (It would appear that Walt REALLY enjoyed cutting out ribs. I've seen barbeques with fewer ribs than a Stunt Rocket....). I think his kit price is very reasonable, especially when considering what goes into this plane and how nice Larry's kits are in the first place!
 
BTW - I can't wait for the Mini version. Did Walt ever do that or is this one your own? Either way, brilliant!

[LARRY RICE]

Walt sent me the plans a couple of years ago and suggested that we make it up.  I wanted to get the big one out first so the plans just sat there nagging at me.  We cut the first prototype as Walt drew it but there were problems with it so I redesigned those parts and sent it back to the laser cutter.  Now we are waiting for the second cutting. 
Walt also sent me a Stunt model that he felt would be a good model to kit but that needs some work and the cost of kitting it is to much right now.  Neither of these plans have ever been published nor put out in print.
Larry

[LARRY RICE]

Thank you all for your responces, I did not expect so many or such kind remarks.  I do not post on Stuka Stunt because of the angry responces and name calling on that site but here we are all civil to one another ... I like that. 

[Bill Morell]

Drop the crap on SSW Larry. There was a time that you were right about the name calling but a lot of the "Angels" on here were over there right in the thick of it. There was no other forum at that time so where else was it going to end up?

[Dick Pacini]

Well, Dick, when someone starts a thread about their business and says, "When we decide  to put a kit into production, and that kit is to be laser cut, we invest a fairly large amount of time and money into it."  That kinda opens the door, don't you think? Or, do you Dick think asking for more clarification so one understands what he is saying is out of order?  If you do Dick, then why don't you ask him to not create threads like this?

No, I don't think that opens the door.  Describing start up costs does not equate to revealing the profit in each kit.  Whether he stuffs one dollar or fifty dollars in his pocket with each sale is irrelevant.  The important thing is do the kits sell at a price that is attractive to the buyer.  If the buyer feels he received good value and the seller feels his efforts were financially worthwhile, then the details are not needed.

[LARRY RICE]

Well, Bill, I had hoped to defuse what looked to be heading down that dark tunnel of name calling and rude remarks.

Here at Black Hawk Models you can be terminated for the use of foul language or remarks that offend, as they cause an healthy work environment and a place where you do not want to be.  The sign on the wall says "Remember that children will be getting these kits, DO NOT put your words into their boxes."
That is better than where I worked before where the sign read "Beatings will continue until moral improves"

Larry

[Scott Richlen]

Larry:

I couldn't agree more.  Just a few years ago when we were doing a lot of flight training with children I was often asked by their parents if there was a web-site where they could get more information.  I couldn't refer them to one because I didn't want to embarrass ourselves by sending them to a web-site that often had  nasty comments and rude behavior on display.  I know that we often fall short on being the most diplomatic bunch, but we need to continue to be aware that we have an audience for our words.

By the way, Zambelli built that Stunt Rocket for our Musciano contest and it is really gorgeous.  It looks great in the picture but even better when you are holding it in your hand ... he did a terrific job on it!

Scott

[larry borden]

Ah come on guys.....we all know that you buy balsa for about 1/4 what we do and stuff it into something that looks like a wood chipper and out the other end comes a complete kit.....

I'm probably gonna start something, but here goes. I would suggest that anyone that thinks they could do it cheaper and better than the current manufacturers, I say go for it. When I was in the corporate world, especially with family owned business. I would hear people complaining about the owner making so much money and the needed to spread it around. Sound familiar these days? Anyway, what people don't think about is that these folks have put their necks out to start a business and make it profitable. Where I basically could work 8 - 5 and get a paycheck, the owner was working 24/7 trying to keep the doors open so I could get that check. Personally, I'm too lazy to go into business myself and was thankful they were there to sign my check.

I liked my job as a worker bee and wanted no part of what business owners have to do to turn a profit.
So as I said before, if you think the current kits are too high and the makers of the kits are rolling in money, give it a try and see what ya think then.

[ChrisSarnowski]

I like the atmosphere of Stunthanger, too. Most of the time we can relax and talk about our toy airplanes.

People should save their anger for discussions of our government, the economy, and world politics.

But that is a different web site.

I like your kits, Larry, and the 1/2A Flyer magazine. Please keep doing what you do!!!

-Chris

[Dick Pacini]

Dick, are you having delusions?  Who says you have the authority to tell others what to ask or not ask?   You didn't start the thread and it is not your place to answer for the one who did.  There are moderators here to do the policing if one violates the site rules.   You are annoying to say the least. 

Whoa, back up Rusty.  I asked a question, it was replied to and I voiced an opinion.  I am not dictating.  Perhaps you wouldn't feel offended if someone asked you to post your last tax return.  Oh, I'm sorry, that is between you and the IRS.

[LARRY RICE]

OKAY, THAT IS IT! I officially quit this chat, and you to who want to fight can take it somewhere else.  I will not respond to any questions or statements that are added here nor will I read any.    Grow up! 

Larry

[Bill Morell]

OKAY, THAT IS IT! I officially quit this chat, and you to who want to fight can take it somewhere else.  I will not respond to any questions or statements that are added here nor will I read any.    Grow up! 

Larry

Gee Larry, what was it you said about this never happening on here??