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Author Topic: Insides and outsides uneven.  (Read 1520 times)

Offline Shorts,David

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Insides and outsides uneven.
« on: May 21, 2022, 11:15:02 PM »
So, my Oriental used to be electric and had very crisp insides and outsides. Then I converted it to glow. Now I have overly tight insides and mushier outsides. I may have some down engine incidence?  I'm not sure why, but if I angle the engine up will it make outsides sharper and insides softer? Ideas on fixing insides and outsides?

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2022, 05:11:36 AM »
David my thought is that you may have changed handles or handle adjustments.  In any case there lies the cure.  Lengthen or pull out your top line just a little and see how it feels.  Also individual line spacing will adjust for that if you think the level adjustment seems OK.  If the insides are too tight bring the top (up) line in closer to the center of your handle or the down line further out.  There wouldn't be too much else about changing power that should affect turning bias unless the CG itself changed enough to make a turning bias more noticeable.

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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2022, 07:41:12 AM »
Dave,
In addition to what DaveS said, when it was electric where you using pusher props? This would cause softer inside and tighter outside from the torque reaction. When you converted to IC the torque is reversed and the conditions you describe would occur and retrim would be needed. Also the feel may be different because of leadout line position and if the rear leadout is up or down as it relates to the torque reaction.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Motorman

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2022, 07:42:11 AM »
Yes, the thrust line would be my first guess. Give it a little more down thrust.

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2022, 08:36:38 AM »
   Round up three Robart incidence meters. One for the wing, one for the stab, and one for the engine. Some of the older ones don't have the bracket to attach it to an engine. I take the mounting bracket off one of the meters and just set it on a flat stab. I clamp the model in one of those old plastic WorkMate bench vises made by Black and Decker and get the fuselage set where the wing meter reads zero. Then check the engine setting. I set my thrust lines to one or one and a half degree down thrust and the same right thrust. The wing should still be zero and the stab I like to set at one degree positive. Those are the settings that the late Bob Whitely called out in his article "Things That Always Work" that was published in Stunt news years ago. You might not be able to do anything about the stab unless you cut it loose, but it should still be at leas zero-zero to the wing. When satisfied that everything is where you want it, then be sure of balance and test fly.
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2022, 09:16:26 AM »
This could be a multitude of issues.  If it is simply turning radius, then retrimming is no different than trimming originally but you mentioned "crisp vs mushy".  I may view them differently.  To me it means the willingness to do the turn, maybe even like being on the verge of a stall. If the switch from pusher to tractor was part of the change, then the rotation direction may have been masking a small warp or stab alignment issue that would double in intensity if the prop rotation was reversed.  How is line tension in the turns?  Do the Oriental plans call for stab incidence or down thrust?  I have never built an Oriental, but I have flown them and a lot of planes from that era did use down thrust.  If the turns are simply different in radius, then that would be my first choice as Motorman suggests.  CG is also in play.  Did you have to move it back?

From your description I think this more of a plane issue than handle issue and I would go there first.  Dan, you beat me to it!

Ken
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2022, 12:16:41 PM »
While you are taking Ken and Dan's excellent suggestions -- is the line tension equal on insides and outsides?  This is certainly something that would make a "crisp" vs. "mushy" difference, totally independent of the incidences set up correctly.
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Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2022, 12:54:33 PM »
Okay, good stuff. Some stuff I hadn't considered, so thanks to everyone.
Dave: I'd rather not go straight to handle adjustments.
Dennis: I hadn't thought about the pusher prop I was running. Yes, that may be a big factor in what's going on here.
Dan: It does have down thrust, but the stab is neutral again. When it was electric I had positive incidence (it's easily adjustable). I'll bet some positive incidence added back in will help too.
Ken: CG is further aft in a more traditional location than when it was electric. It's also about 9 ounces lighter now.

I think if I change the stab incidence and introduce some more down, I may get it back where I liked it.
Maybe I'll get a break in the wind this afternoon to go out and test it again.

Offline Crist Rigotti

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2022, 01:08:04 PM »
Lengthen the elevator push rod by 1 turn.  Check for equal turn rates.  Adjust accordingly.
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Offline Motorman

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2022, 01:19:52 PM »
Lengthen the elevator push rod by 1 turn.  Check for equal turn rates.  Adjust accordingly.

How does that work, give you more flap in the outsides?

Offline Crist Rigotti

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2022, 03:02:52 PM »
How does that work, give you more flap in the outsides?

Ask Paul Walker.  It's from his chart.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2022, 04:18:42 PM »
How does that work, give you more flap in the outsides?

It biases the flap up.  Which would give you less flap on the insides and more on the outsides.

Actually, his initial flap bias adjustment is to fly level upright and inverted, and adjust the flap-elevator bias until the plane is dead level in both directions.  This might be a good place to start, if you haven't done it already.  (Actually, if you haven't done it, you may want to just find a copy of Paul Walker's trim method and start going through it).
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2022, 05:01:45 PM »
It biases the flap up.  Which would give you less flap on the insides and more on the outsides.

Actually, his initial flap bias adjustment is to fly level upright and inverted, and adjust the flap-elevator bias until the plane is dead level in both directions.  This might be a good place to start, if you haven't done it already.  (Actually, if you haven't done it, you may want to just find a copy of Paul Walker's trim method and start going through it).

     If it isn't already, and I don't think it is, Paul's Trim Chart should be pinned to the top of one of the sections, probably the "At The Handle " section for quick reference in these types of threads.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2022, 05:14:31 PM »
So, my Oriental used to be electric and had very crisp insides and outsides. Then I converted it to glow. Now I have overly tight insides and mushier outsides. I may have some down engine incidence?  I'm not sure why, but if I angle the engine up will it make outsides sharper and insides softer? Ideas on fixing insides and outsides?

   Some possibly good suggestions above, but, given it was turning OK before and the only change is the propulsion I would suspect that first. Certainly, get the thrust line back where it was, and you can shim it up or down to see the effects.

     But, my first step would be checking how the engine runs in inside and outside corners, because even tiny differences in how the power comes on (or not) under load and maneuvering can have a very marked effect on how it turns and is one of the most striking differences between electric and IC.    Are you getting the same "setting" on inside and outside round loops? Are you breaking into a 2-stroke after an inside but not an outside, or vice versa? That sort of stuff.

     Brett

Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2022, 08:13:33 PM »
Brett, I hadn't considered that either. My inside is still going lean and my outside a hair rich. I didn't connect those dots till you mentioned that.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2022, 08:24:55 PM »
No negative thoughts, just curious, why did you switch it from electric to IC?

Ken
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Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2022, 11:09:12 PM »
No negative thoughts, just curious, why did you switch it from electric to IC?

Ken
On a large scale i like ic cause they're loud and make smoke. Like a chopper vs a Honda cruising bike. But specifically, I stuck a hatch screw through my battery back and melted all my electronics and burned up some of the wood. The plane wasn't dialed in as an electric anyhow and I thought maybe glow would be a good alternative. Of course now I'm remembering all the other headaches with glow, so, maybe I'll switch it back at some point.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2022, 12:20:53 AM »
On a large scale i like ic cause they're loud and make smoke. Like a chopper vs a Honda cruising bike. But specifically, I stuck a hatch screw through my battery back and melted all my electronics and burned up some of the wood. The plane wasn't dialed in as an electric anyhow and I thought maybe glow would be a good alternative. Of course now I'm remembering all the other headaches with glow, so, maybe I'll switch it back at some point.
Good enough.  Both have their downsides.  This thread has reminded me of a lot of them! LL~  I lost 60 years worth of IC stuff so I am sticking, or perhaps stuck, with electric.  I do miss the sound and smoke.

Ken
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2022, 12:23:32 AM »
Brett, I hadn't considered that either. My inside is still going lean and my outside a hair rich. I didn't connect those dots till you mentioned that.

   On a flapped airplane, particularly classic airplanes, going lean/speeding up (or slowing down less) stiffens the controls, going rich/slowing down (or slowing down more) softens them, so that's about what I would guess. The speed of the control response (that is, moving the controls through angle alpha to get a particular turn rate/radius) hardly changes with speed, but the load changes drastically, so the effect is that the controls feel "stiff"  when it goes faster and "loose"/"easy" when it slows down.

    Interestingly, the opposite usually happens on elevator-only airplanes. The control loads don't change much with speed, but the control response greatly increases with speed, so it tends to have the opposite effect.

     Note that something similar happens even when the engine run is symmetrical - it always responds somehow, and depending on how it responds, it can drastically change the control response in both directions. I spent half the morning adjusting my engine run to be stiffer/less responsive*,  the intent being to try to play that off against the CG and flap/elevator ratio.

   The 2021 NATs, I had it *way* too flat, particularly on insides, which led to near-disaster in any sort of wind. Normally, I hope it's windy because I figure I have and advantage, but not in this case, and all the way up to the week before Golden State where Paul Walker and David Fitzgerald can attest I damn near stuck it in the ground on an inside triangle in about 10 mph wind. I radically changed the engine by the next weekend, and had no problem in the 20ish, in fact, the big problem was me overcompensating anticipating a problem that no longer existed.

   Governor-only electric would run the same either way, it doesn't care, which is why they have such consistent control response. I would guess you can (and have to) adjust the same effect on accelerometer feedback systems, and tilting the accelerometer would affect the inside/outside difference.

       Brett

 *BTW, I was adjusting the engine run by making small changes to the oil content - adding 1/8 ounce to 1/4 ounce of oil to the regular Powermaster fuel took it from "too responsive" to bordering on "too flat". Note that this is about **1/16"** of movement on my 5 ounce fuel syringe - pull out a tiny bit of KL-198 oil from the bottle,  suck up regular amounts of fuel into it, shake it up, fill the tank. So a barely detectable amount of oil, from 18% (no added oil) to 20% (1/8 ounce/1/16") to 22% (1/4 ounce/1/8") took the engine from too responsive to too flat, and would require different airplane trim. This was my sequence of events:

unmodified fuel (18% oil) - engine was backing off too much when unloaded, causing the airplane to "fall into" the corners and tend to come out, say, higher. I could ix this by moving the CG forward and/or by reducing the elevator movement WRT the flap, or, by reducing the engine response to load

Modified fuel (22% oil, regular fuel load +~1/4 ounce of KL-198) - Note that this emulates RO-Jett fuel, which I still have, but didn't have with me this morning due to lack of preparation. Flew this a few flights, and concluded it was not responding enough, which made the controls feel much stiffer than the unmodified fuel, and while it had beneficial effects on the positivity and predictability, it was a bit much and required excess effort for a desirable degree of turn. This could have been dealt with by moving the CG back and/or increasing the elevator movement WRT the flap, but that's a lot harder than changing the oil, particularly when time is short.

In-between (20% oil, regular fuel load +~1/8 ounce of KL-198) - This was better for the current state of trim of the airplane, had a workable combination of positivity in the corners and speed control. Whether it might be better overall with one of the previous fuel version and necessary trim adjustments is an interesting point.

   I would also note that the engine was responding a bit harder in insides than outsides, which is the tendency of the RO-Jett 61 BSE "Brett" versions, and making the insides slightly stiffer than outsides, which I have already trimmed for and gotten used to (since it's been that way since 2003...).

   Point being, this stuff really makes a difference, and while some people are at least somewhat aware of the effects, they do matter, and indicate why *how the engine runs* is so critical to everything else you do. And there are many degrees of freedom to play off against each other. If you *don't* have a good understanding of how these things play off against each other, the entire system looks like a random number generator and you do great on the flight it all happens to line up, and have random effects all the rest of the time. This is *greatly reduced* with modern power systems compared to the ancient types, so it is far better than it used to be.

    Brett

     

   

Offline Shorts,David

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2022, 11:34:36 PM »
Okay, I got the oriental out again today with changes made to the tank location and changed the elevator pushrod length. Also added back in some of the positive incidence on the stab. (yes, I recall only make one change at a time, but oh well). So, after two flights I had engine run even on insides and outsides and the plane also responded equally on insides and outsides. Also, Any remnant of Hunting seemed to be a thing of the past.
So on the third flight I was feeling very confident, so confident I did an inverted touch and very brief go on my outside squares.  HB~>.. propeller is already replaced, rudder glued back on, but that canopy will never look the same. Ugh.
But thanks to everyone for the help trimming.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Insides and outsides uneven.
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2022, 08:47:48 AM »
... but that canopy will never look the same. Ugh ...

David, there's a solution for everything.
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