Inside Loop (+ other manuevers) and Its Handle Position?

[Kafin Noe’man]

Hi all,

As I’m progressing to learn more manuevers now, I also wonder how I can make my inside loop better. As of today, I can do the consecutive inside loops with confidence, but still lacking consistency on its shape & size.

I know the basic idea to do an inside loop is to put an up control at the entry, let the plane to climb to the top of the loop and then put anoter up control to obtain round inside loop until the plane recovers to level flight at the same altitude that it entered the loop.

I’ve been trying to fly like that basic idea as well as learning from another videos on YouTube, and I’ve come accross with this question: Is the handle position (the way I hold it either it’s vertical or a slightly tilted) going to make any difference?

So, here I have sketched some scenarios I’ve had in my mind now:
A. Vertical — all the way from entry to exit


B. Slightly Tilted — all the way from entry to exit


C. Combination

or


Any thoughts on this? Is it also applicable in another manuevers?

Looking forward to hearing more ideas from you.
Thank you!


Best,
Kafin

[Ken Culbertson]

Any thoughts on this? Is it also applicable in another manuevers?

Looking forward to hearing more ideas from you.
Thank you!


Best,
Kafin

I can't speak for others but for me it is vertical from takeoff to landing except for the Reverse Wingover.  There may be some slight tilting here and there but not much and not intentional.  Keep it vertical and relax or tighten as needed to make the loops round.  "As Needed" varies with wind and the plane you are flying.

Ken
The only place there is any rolling of the handle is in the reverse wingover.  The physics of the flight path forces you to roll your forearm

[Steve Helmick]

I suggest #1, but would also note that if you don't follow the model with your arm/wrist/hand/handle through all the maneuvers, the control input tends to go away, in case that needs saying. Tilting the hand/handle isn't a good idea, so avoid learning bad habits. It's harder to un-learn than avoid bad habits from the start.

Also, avoid putting your thumb on top of the handle to give "extra down control" on outsides. If the model turns equally inside/outside (it better...if it doesn't, adjust THE AIRPLANE to make it), it won't help and I consider it a bad habit. Do NOT bias the controls or handle. Always, always, always, fix what's causing the problem, rather than doing some "work around" stuff.      Steve

[Brett Buck]

Hi all,

As I’m progressing to learn more manuevers now, I also wonder how I can make my inside loop better. As of today, I can do the consecutive inside loops with confidence, but still lacking consistency on its shape & size.

I know the basic idea to do an inside loop is to put an up control at the entry, let the plane to climb to the top of the loop and then put anoter up control to obtain round inside loop until the plane recovers to level flight at the same altitude that it entered the loop.

I’ve been trying to fly like that basic idea as well as learning from another videos on YouTube, and I’ve come accross with this question: Is the handle position (the way I hold it either it’s vertical or a slightly tilted) going to make any difference?

  I don't think you should tilt it at all, but very small tilts won't hurt anything.

   As you go through maneuvers, you should try to follow the airplane movement, so that if you drew a line from the center of your chest, through the handle and then to the airplane, it would be a straight line. That will make the control motion consistent throughout.

     I would note, however, that you might consider that the control effort is not going to be constant throughout the loop, at least not if it is round. It will take more motion/control pressure at the bottom than the top, because you are fighting gravity at the bottom and gravity is helping you at the top. So you will have to vary the control input throughout the loop. Following the maneuver with your hand as suggested will make it consistent, but it will not be constant.

     I think it helps to think of it as control pressure, rather than an angle or handle displacement.

     Brett

[Brent Williams]

This video of Brett Buck a good example of effective body and hand positioning through the various maneuvers. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=149&v=29SIcHACNZw&feature=youtu.be

[john e. holliday]

I see he has his arm bent at the elbow.  In another video his arm is almost straight through the whole pattern.  I guess it depends on how windy it is.  But as stated keep your handle verticle.

[Tim Wescott]

The only place there is any rolling of the handle is in the reverse wingover.  The physics of the flight path forces you to roll your forearm

General Grievous probably doesn't suffer from that limitation.

[Leonard Bourel]

Thank you Steve for your insight.  I agree as a beginner trying to learn to fly precision aerobatics is hard.  I found myself allowing my wrist to tilt and it caused me no end of confusion and it was a very bad habit.  Luckily Len pointed it out to me, and together we worked on reminding me to always keep my wrist straight up and down.  I have not learned reverse wingovers yet, so I will cross that bridge when I get there.  Learning to keep my wrist and handle straight up and down has been the one thing that has helped me to learn inside loops and make them more like a proper circle instead of a crazy wild shape with an uncertain top and bottom.  I crashed more than one model before I broke that bad habit, and am still working on the three consecutive loops but feel I have come a long way in being precise rather than lucky.  Naomi (under Lens log in).

[M Spencer]

This bloke might know what he is  up to , perhaps . 



Another bloke past the initial training phase . You  can see him waving his arm about .



THOUGh one is better to develop ones own body language , step , & posture .
Standing on the porch each evening and going through the movements for all the manouvres will impress the neigbours imensly . 
Is actually a idea to ' pre  test ' the proceedure - then yyour less distracted in the real thing .
the BACKGROUND is also a big visual distraction . initially . So pre doing it , ' on site ' helps too .
Further away any background is , the less it intrudes visually .

[Brett Buck]

This bloke might know what he is  up to , perhaps . 

Another bloke past the initial training phase . You  can see him waving his arm about .

THOUGh one is better to develop ones own body language , step , & posture .

     OK, this again - "dueling experts".

   In fact, I don't think it is a good idea to just "wing it", and I would note that at least Paul has generally excellent overall posture and arm positions, and having flown his airplanes, they are not wildly different from anyone else's (except for *being in excellent trim*, which only reinforces my point) and certainly do not need any additional "help". Also, that both Igor and Paul learned to fly at a high level in the era where the airplanes needed a lot of help, which is where these sorts of things start - because you *had to* do them to get through.

   If you are just starting, I think it greatly helps you to have not developed these tendencies, since if you use properly-set up modern equipment, you patently don't have to do this sort of stuff any more, and while it can be overcome, why set up a problem that then you have to fight later?

    So, my advice stands, stand up straight,  hold your head straight, and frame the maneuvers in front of you. Follow the maneuvers with your arm, hold it in a position that don't change the control input/pressure as you do the maneuvers, and I think it is a lot easier. Of course, if there is some problem, then, do what you have to, but then go back and figure out why you had a problem and take emergency actions to deal with it, change something so you don't have to.

    Again, this is my best advice from watching all this stuff for decades. I think it will greatly simplify the process of learning to fly stunt and have abundant examples to point to.    No one has to follow it, it is just advice.

      Brett

[redout]

I can't speak for others but for me it is vertical from takeoff to landing except for the Reverse Wingover.  There may be some slight tilting here and there but not much and not intentional.  Keep it vertical and relax or tighten as needed to make the loops round.  "As Needed" varies with wind and the plane you are flying.

Ken
The only place there is any rolling of the handle is in the reverse wingover.  The physics of the flight path forces you to roll your forearm

I am about where Kafin is in progress and intend to use the upcoming weeks and months to improve, hopefully significantly.

This thread ( and the inverted flight one ) is very timely and this information on handle position is especially useful as I don't want to ingrain bad habits early on.

Richard

[redout]

   As you go through maneuvers, you should try to follow the airplane movement, so that if you drew a line from the center of your chest, through the handle and then to the airplane, it would be a straight line. That will make the control motion consistent throughout.

         Brett

And this specific instruction is incredibly useful to a beginner like me. I've always wondered exactly what to do with my flying hand.

Richard

( Sorry for two separate replies, can't see how to multi-quote. )

[Kafin Noe’man]

Thank you all for your inputs. It’s incredibly helpful.
I’m now trying to digest all of them and try to dry fly it.

Can’t wait to try those tips & tricks on my weekly flying practice.
Hopefully, I can fly stunt better.

Best,
Kafin

[Kafin Noe’man]

  I don't think you should tilt it at all, but very small tilts won't hurt anything.

   As you go through maneuvers, you should try to follow the airplane movement, so that if you drew a line from the center of your chest, through the handle and then to the airplane, it would be a straight line. That will make the control motion consistent throughout.

Brett, just wanna share a quick update.

I tried this suggestion this morning on my weekly practice session, voila, my inside loop is getting way better!
Thank you so much!

[Brett Buck]

Brett, just wanna share a quick update.

I tried this suggestion this morning on my weekly practice session, voila, my inside loop is getting way better!
Thank you so much!

   You are quite welcome!'
 
    A lot of learning stunt is a matter of not making it harder on yourself than it has to be.

    Brett

[Electric George]

I am another person who is really grateful to all those who have contributed to this thread. It is really useful for me as I am also at this stage of flying.
I started flying Control Line around 6 months ago and flown around twice a month ( I hope to fly more in future). I am disappointed that I have not made a great deal of progress but I can fly reasonable inside loops and Lazy Eights of variable quality. I am often wondering about things like handle position etc. and so great to read the advice.
Thanks to Kafin for starting the thread.

[Ted Fancher]

Brett prevails once again!!!!  Great thread!

For those new to "Stunt Hangar" I encourage you to also visit the "At the Handle" forum's link just below this one at the "select your poison" list when you first log on.  At the Handle is mostly dedicated to discussions of exactly the sorts of questions that made this thread so helpful to many.  The thread's  title is "Overshooting Intersections" which sounds right up Kafin's alley!

Give it a shot.

Ted Fancher

P.S. Brett is a regular contributor there if you need more encouragement!

[Brett Buck]

I am another person who is really grateful to all those who have contributed to this thread. It is really useful for me as I am also at this stage of flying.
I started flying Control Line around 6 months ago and flown around twice a month ( I hope to fly more in future). I am disappointed that I have not made a great deal of progress but I can fly reasonable inside loops and Lazy Eights of variable quality. I am often wondering about things like handle position etc. and so great to read the advice.
Thanks to Kafin for starting the thread.

     As noted above, learning is all about keeping the problem simple. Unfortunately, there is so much misinformation/old wives tales/Stunt Lore (AKA "bullsh*t) floating around about almost everything in stunt, and everyone very earnestly pitches in with it to "help", that you get innundated with conflicting and mostly-wrong advice and silly side arguments like above. So it is very difficult to sort out genuine help from well-meaning nonsense.

  One of the most pervasive things that makes it hard is *trying to use ancient low-performance trainers*, particular, ancient low-performance *engines*. Even the most modest electric system obviates this problem, any usable system has a governor, and that is generally much better way to go than almost any IC engine. But start with someone else's old junk engines (Fox, McCoy, Supertigre, OS Baffle-piston) run like they used to back in the day, and many of the classic trainers are borderline unflyable. "Borderline unflyable" = requires expert skill to make a decent flight.

     So, when various wags talk about "what about Joe Gilbert's Ringmaster, ha ha!", or "None of you guys ever beat Jim Silhavy!"  is it is more-or-less proving my point for me. Is it any way surprising that world-class modelers with skill in the 99.9 percentile can make a go of it with less-than ideal systems? They can handle anything pretty well. That doesn't make it a good idea for a raw beginner, they need help.

  My recommendations to make your life easier when training are well-documented. What I noticed is that my "full-house" competition airplane, and a lot of other people's, are both extremely easy to fly, and all fly almost the same way. They go where you point them, you stand there and drive them around.   They would make absolutely perfect trainers - except for the fact they take 6 months to make and cost $2000+, and, that you would never get them set up as well as we do, because that is ALSO a critical and difficult-to-learn skill.

    Unfortunately, classic "trainers" from the 40'S-50'S-60 sport/stunt planes with ancient 4-2 break "stunt" engines are barely flyable, and are extremely unreliable and inconsistent by comparison. What you really need is an airplane that is simple enough to trim and set up that even a beginner can do it with some simple instructions, and an engine that start and run reliably, and will provide modern-era performance. Also, to cut the *engine experts* out of the loop to the extent possible, because, whether they mean well or not, are the primary cause of people having unreliable or low performance (with some absolutely remarkable examples over the years).

   Almost anything I know about it after about 30 years of on-and-off experiment is documented here and can be found by searching some terms like:

  "small engine experiment"
  "Brett Skyray"
  "OS-20FP"
   "BBTU" (a joke standing for Brett Buck Tune-Up, the joke being that there is no tune-up, you run the engine exactly as it comes from the factory)

    and the like.

     Brett

   

[Dan McEntee]

I am another person who is really grateful to all those who have contributed to this thread. It is really useful for me as I am also at this stage of flying.
I started flying Control Line around 6 months ago and flown around twice a month ( I hope to fly more in future). I am disappointed that I have not made a great deal of progress but I can fly reasonable inside loops and Lazy Eights of variable quality. I am often wondering about things like handle position etc. and so great to read the advice.
Thanks to Kafin for starting the thread.

 

    One thing that you have to understand is that flying stunt is not a video game and when you add in the fact that we all have different levels that we are capable of learning at. and there are no short cuts, you know you have to be committed to learning for the long haul. If you do the full monty, which is building your own model, learning  the ins and outs of what ever power plant you choose and just learning to fly, there is a whole lot going on and a lot to learn. But that is why we do it, isn't it? If it was easy, everyone would be doing it!! People take to the different aspects of the hobby at different rates. I have been building model airplanes of some sort since I was 5 years old. Mostly free flight sport stuff but it was my foundation in building. Control line came along later at about 12 years old or so, and then in teen age years got interrupted a bit with trade school and dirt bikes. Picked up control line again after high school graduation for as bit, then ventured into R/C soaring for several years. When that started to get real expensive and complicated, I went back to control line and looked at stunt more seriously. I had flown free flight and R/C soaring in competition so that was a goal with stunt. I started out as a rank beginner and it tool me two airplanes to get through my first contest! It was about 17 years later that I finally flew my first 500 point expert score and won my first local expert class contest. I have seen some guys do the same routine in as little as 3 or 4 years! Putting in a good stunt flight and getting a good score is the culmination of a lot of little things that add up to that good score. You have to want to learn to take care of the small details. It's a fun journey, so enjoy it. I have met and flown with many of the people on this list and many more that are not around any longer, and that is one of the best reasons and rewards to participate. Just remember that it's not a race but it helps to have goals. When you reach those goals all the rest is just gravy and you will have lifetime friends and experiences that you would not have had any other way. So, just take things at your own pace, and remember to have fun while dong it. That keeps the stress level pretty low, and rmemeber that we ALL have been where you are today!
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[john e. holliday]

Well stated Dan.  I always wanted to be the pilot of my racing planes, which was Rat Race back then .   On the way home from a contest my Mother asked me why don't you do the pitting of your plane.  She said there are several good pilots that would fly for you.  So I became a pit man for my racing planes as I knew the engines and set up.  Started fly stunt when racing contests started getting scare in the KC area and no pilots.  I now fly stunt for pleasure and don't worry unless I mess up totally.  Ask Jim Lee and he will tell you the old DOC messes up when he gets serious for some reason.  I would be trying too hard  with what little practice I got.  If I remember right it was a fellow club who lived in KCMo before him and his wife move back east.  His name was Dave Addleman(spelling).  So really take yor time and maybe get some one else to fly with and make it fun.