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Author Topic: Ink Lines  (Read 2461 times)

Offline JHildreth

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Ink Lines
« on: April 21, 2018, 02:35:09 PM »
My first attempt at applying ink lines is coming up when I paint my FW 190.  I have watched Windy's DVD on ink lines with his Seafire.  In that DVD, Windy is using Rapidograph pens and states that you need to use the india ink for film with those pens.  I have a set of the pens, but so far I have only been able to find ink for "Paper and Film".  In the Rapidograph catalog, ink for film only is listed, but it is a special order and the minimum special order dollar amount is way out of my league.  Does the paper and film ink work?  What other alternatives are there?

Joe

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2018, 03:31:55 PM »
Joe the only one I've ever used is the one for paper.  That's for all the airplanes since forever and those years I fed the family as a draftsman.  Not sure what the difference is other than perhaps the 'film' version may dry faster and resists any fisheye tendencies.  If the airplane has all the finger oil wiped down with alcohol or original windex that shouldn't be a problem.  Smearing is the thing to be avoided.  I try to work one spot then move someplace well away to work to let it dry.  Screw ups are easily wiped away with rubbing alcohol.  When done a dusting with clear dope and an airbrush will lock down the lines for heavier doping.

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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2018, 03:49:31 PM »
  There is an article in an old Flying Models Magazine by Dave Gierke on ink lines that parallels Windy's video pretty good. The big thing to have on hand when you start is some talcum powder or corn starch. After wiping the model down as Dave mentions, (just do the area you will be working one) dust the area down with talcum powder and lightly rub it in. This helps give the ink something to grab onto and lets the pen work better. After it sits a while a good blow or swipe with a feather duster will take the powder off, and even if you don't, you can clear over it with no issues. If you make a boo boo, just wipe off with a alcohol soaked paper towel and re apply the talc. As Dave said, if you are satisfied give it some time to dry and give it a squirt of clear to resist smudging while you handle the model to do the rest, depending on how much ink lining you plan to do.
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Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2018, 05:18:55 PM »
Joe,
Be sure that you have a little tape under the edge that you use. I have made various templates, and use vinyl fine line tape on the bottom, slightly away from the edge. This prevents ink from blotting under the template or straight edge. Some straight metal rulers have cork bottoms that are not quite to the edge. My metal ruler came from office depot.
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Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2018, 05:38:00 PM »
I cheated by using a Sharpie. Then I cleared the ink lines with clear dope from a Harbor Freight airbrush.
Several flights shows this to be an acceptable way to handle panel lines on my most recent build, a Scientific profile fuselage/built-up 1/2A P-40.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2018, 05:42:07 PM »
\ I have a set of the pens, but so far I have only been able to find ink for "Paper and Film".  In the Rapidograph catalog, ink for film only is listed, but it is a special order and the minimum special order dollar amount is way out of my league.  Does the paper and film ink work?  What other alternatives are there?

  I will check the little bottles I have and see what the part number is.

   It is entirely possible that this stuff is getting to be hard-to-find and/or special order - it's all rapidly becoming obsolete as CAD drawing and 3D modeling replaces (or rather, long since replaced) hand drawing on paper.

    Brett

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2018, 06:01:37 PM »
J,

Here's an old Thread I put up on my first attempt at panel lines. You might want to check it out.

I didn't want to us a Rapidograph pen because of the cost.

I clear ALL my models with a 2 part auto clear which does not dissolve the ink in the pen I used. If you expect to use clear dope, I would do a test first, just to be sure.

Yes, pens come in a few colors.

https://stunthanger.com/smf/paint-and-finishing/secret-exposed!-pen-lines-photos-added!!/msg368897/#msg368897

Hope this helps.

CB



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Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2018, 06:49:07 PM »
Even after ultrasonic cleaning it can be frustrating getting ink to flow. (I have used both ink for film amd ink for film and paper.

I just Googled drafting pens and found a new type that use a roller ball and are disposable. They are "Ohto" brand and are supposed to have true line widths. Not having to clean and fill pens would be great. At $2.50 each, I am going to order #1 and 2 pens to try. I am tryimg to finish the ink lines on my Jet Falcon.
The airplane is 85% inked, but I forgot how frustrating this can be.

I'll let everyone know how they work.

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Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2018, 07:41:23 PM »
I’ve had good luck with Faber-Castell PITT Artist pens.  The do not seem to store well, and dry out between builds, but at $5 a piece, the cost is negligible.  Same techniques as mentioned above apply.

Offline Crist Rigotti

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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2018, 10:06:27 PM »
You should be able to get the INK , & Pens, from a Art Supplies Store .

The Platinum Tip Nibs are for the plastic drawing film / paper . Theyre Twice the price .The Std Ones wear quickly to a chisel point on plastic paper .
Ya gotta Talc the plastic .

DONT leave the pens IN THE SUN , they heat & expand the ink . glob splurt blot etc . Keep em in the SHADE .Somewhere Cool. Using them .
Std Pro Tip is dismantle & rinse Nibs in distilled water each week .
Dropping pens destroys the .35 & under nibs, or perforates bare feet & destroys the finer nibs .

Staedler do pens , fairly common .

Definately the tape to space the rule up , and draw in AWAY from the pen line , hold your breath , and count to three , or ten in a cold winter ,
before breathing , or the ink will move .

LIGHT Coat of clear first , not wet to disolve / displace the ink lines .

Some off the felts fade & the white is said to be worse at that .

Maybe art supplies'd have ink in vivid tecnocolour . A humidifyer was a big shot trick . Damp foam pad under pens is cheaper . Proba ly neccesary if using dope for ink .

Thats a Rotring Humidifyer . I had a round blue & grey Staedler ? one , bit of foam in the bottom you were supposed to dampen . Knock it off the bench swinging round .  :(

Pen Set .


Nuther Humidifyer . Id put lead on the bottom , or double sided tape , in hindsight .



The plastic thing on the rights plastic lid, to keep on . Probly ceramic 100 year old one would be vastly superior .
Or make one out of an old piston ( Wright Cyclone or soomesuch ) and do a crack the glass jar that fits , for a top . A alloy disc drilled for pens , and a seal , youd beat it, hands down .
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 09:32:55 AM by Matt Spencer »

Offline Larry Fernandez

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2018, 10:52:46 PM »
I cheated by using a Sharpie. Then I cleared the ink lines with clear dope from a Harbor Freight airbrush.
Several flights shows this to be an acceptable way to handle panel lines on my most recent build, a Scientific profile fuselage/built-up 1/2A P-40.


DO NO USE A SHARPIE PEN !
The Sharpie ink lines will look great at first, but will fade in a couple of years, even if you shoot clear over the ink work.
I used Sharpie pens in my early modeling days not knowing they will fade.
I now use Rapido-Graph pens and the ink lines on my Macaluso Tomcat still look great after 18 years.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2018, 11:08:36 PM »
Lost my first post, so let me try again...

Joe,

Glad to keep hearing updates on your FW-190 project. It has been interesting to follow along.

Taking your question literally, you won’t have any trouble with either of the two inks in the pen itself. Rapidograph has always been one of my favorites for precision and consistency. The difference is going to be in the drying time between the two inks and perhaps the chemical compatibility with dope.

My recollection is that "film" formulation is fast drying and the "film and paper" version has a “long wet time” which might be good for wiping up mistakes on some kinds of work. It has been a long time since I inked engineering drawings for a paycheck, but the faster drying ink really improved the productivity. You still had to plan lines to keep working without smudging, but you can go a lot faster.

Amazon has the “film” version (3084) for about $17 for a ¾ oz bottle—which is a lot of ink unless you are doing drawings all day long. The “film and paper” versions (3080 or 3085) are about $6. I am less sure I understand the differences between these two.
https://www.amazon.com/Koh-I-Noor-Rapidraw-Bottle-Black-3084F-BLA/dp/B0009K97CS

I do not know if any of these are more compatible with the dope overcoat. To me, that is the biggest discriminator. I have 3080 and 3085, but none of the 3084 to comparison test. I have a plane ready for clear that I could try it on, now that I think about it.

The tools used for inking are different from the more common pencil tools. I have some of these left over from back in the day since we bought our own tools. As Tom pointed out, unless the edge is raised up, the ink will wick underneath and create a big smear. The tape trick works well, but I suggest using clear packing tape. A couple of layers should be enough. The reason is that being able to see thru the tools allows you to place and line up the edges much easier. The eye is drawn to parallel lines that aren’t; to parallel lines that have variations in the spacing which should not have; to circles that aren’t concentric; to centerlines that are off-center. Clear tools help. I like the idea of cork-backed tools as non-skidding, but the deal-breaker for me is that you give up the ability to see easily leading to lots more rework. Maybe some non-skid pads or dots in a couple of places would be a workable compromise.
Another old drafting trick is to scribe a set of lines on clear straight edges on the side you will use down. (Down to eliminate parallax.) I liked a 1/16th and a 1/8th setback. This lets you freehand parallel lines much faster. For an inking template, if you lay down the clear tape carefully, you can get the same benefit.

One of the things we used to keep on top of the drafting table was a talc bag. These were about the size of a couple of golf balls and made of a cotton jersey-like fabric. They “leaked” talc all the time and you could fluff and squeeze it to dust the mylar. You could easily make one of these. As mentioned, this helped if the pen was skidding and making intermittent lines. Mylar sheet has a matte finish, and generally doesn’t need the talc, but if you tried erasing lines, and knock the matte finish down, then talc is how you got a new line over the smooth spot. I would think that if you color sand your plane before inking you will get the same effect, then pick up the gloss (well, maybe not on an FW-190?) with the clear coat.

I have not seen the model inking videos, so if all of the above is redundant, please forgive me.

Good luck with your project!

Dave
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Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2018, 02:10:14 PM »

DO NO USE A SHARPIE PEN !
The Sharpie ink lines will look great at first, but will fade in a couple of years, even if you shoot clear over the ink work.
I used Sharpie pens in my early modeling days not knowing they will fade.
I now use Rapido-Graph pens and the ink lines on my Macaluso Tomcat still look great after 18 years.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Thanks Mr B!
 I never had a plane last long enough to notice this.

Offline JHildreth

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2018, 06:10:56 PM »
Does anyone know anything about the Higgins brand of inks.  The art supply that I have frequented only carries black ink in the Rapidograph brand, but has numerous colors of the Higgins.  I have read of/seen people using colors other than black.  For instance, Windy suggests using white ink where the panel line crosses over dark painted areas.  Others have suggested using gray ink.

Thanks for all the responses.  They are all very instructive.

Joe

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2018, 06:39:08 PM »
  I think Higgins is THE ink to use, professionally. Been a long time since I looked into it but I seem to remember that name as being prominent.
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2018, 07:35:12 PM »

DO NO USE A SHARPIE PEN !
The Sharpie ink lines will look great at first, but will fade in a couple of years, even if you shoot clear over the ink work.

 About 7-8 years ago I used a fine line Sharpie on a couple of models and yea, in some spots the lines have faded almost completely away.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 09:16:58 PM by wwwarbird »
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Offline Larry Fernandez

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2018, 08:12:40 PM »
  I think Higgins is THE ink to use, professionally. Been a long time since I looked into it but I seem to remember that name as being prominent.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

Yes Higgins is the ink to use. You can find it at most art stores.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2018, 11:20:20 PM »
Michael's, Hobby Lobby.
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Offline billbyles

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2018, 01:17:41 PM »

DO NO USE A SHARPIE PEN !
<snip>  Macaluso Tomcat still look great after 18 years.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

The Tomcat was the "heavy equipment" wasn't it?
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2018, 01:22:26 PM »
The Tomcat was the "heavy equipment" wasn't it?

  That was not the prize winner in that race, as I recall. But I will let Larry tell his own story. One thing his heavy airplane proved beyond a shadow of a doubt - with sufficient and effective "power" and a reasonably-shaped airfoil, *wing loading makes nearly no difference*.

    Brett

Offline Larry Fernandez

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2018, 06:14:38 PM »
The Tomcat was the "heavy equipment" wasn't it?

No, the Tomcat was built in the late nineties
The Crusader (which my so called friend Eliott Scott named “Heavy Equipment” was built in 2007.
Yes it was heavy, but as Brett pointed out, when I put a “Buck Tuned” RO Jett .61 in her, she turned into a wonderful flying stunt ship.
The reasonably shaped airfoil used on “Heavy Equipment” was from a Trivial Pursuit.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

I’ll try to post a pic of the TomCat
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 06:44:42 PM by Larry Fernandez »

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2018, 11:02:46 PM »
Neck got sore. This is a test. I saved the picture of JB with the Tomcat and rotated it clockwise 90 degrees, and I'm reposting it. I'm not sure if it'll work or not. If it doesn't work, I'll delete this post, and I honestly don't think it will work. But I sure would like to know what it is about cell phone pictures that makes them so intent on being turned 90 deg. to the left.  y1  Steve
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Online fred cesquim

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Re: Ink Lines
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2018, 07:28:04 AM »
i have been using regular india ink with draftsman pen, 04 mm straight over monokote and paint, never used talcum as they are likely to leave residue under the clear coat, and i always clean up the whole plane with a degreaser prior to clear shooting, and that surely would wipe off some of the ink lines with talcum underneath.
i have take the great tip from Dave Hill and imported radiograph ink to make tests! hope this one flows better to the surface than regular india ink


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