Information on "one design" contests

[Brett Buck]

This came up in the BOM Poll thread, but I would like to ask if anyone has done anything like a "one design" contest, or an "identical airplane"/one airplane contest. If so, what exactly did you do, how did it work, what problems did you have, and what would you change the next time?

  Brett

[PJ Rowland]

I havent run one - but I have flown in one.

It was with a profile model. We were all allowed 1 setup flight where you would adjust level and get a quick feel for the model. 1 Test flight only. 2 Rounds best round counted.

We were not required to start -there was a pitman doing the starting for every flier. No-one crashed it came down to who could get the hang of the model the quickest in flight.

I found it quite challenging and enjoyable.

If I had to change anything - Perhaps a bigger stunter full body.


I haven't flown in anything that was limited to one design - but can see the appeal.

[Matt Colan]

Hi Brett,

I read over what you wrote in the BOM Poll thread, and think it's definitely a cool idea. I haven't run or participated in one, but if I were able to fly in one, without hesitation I would enter.

One idea to run it could be to limit what you can do with the plane (i.e. Twister on 60ft lines with an LA 40).  That could limit how people trim out their planes, and maybe that could keep the playing field more even.  That may not have the plane flying at it's full potential, but it could still work.

Just a thought...

[Larry Fernandez]

This came up in the BOM Poll thread, but I would like to ask if anyone has done anything like a "one design" contest, or an "identical airplane"/one airplane contest. If so, what exactly did you do, how did it work, what problems did you have, and what would you change the next time?

  Brett

Interesting idea. I'm thinking we could use an airplane that is in perfect trim, by a top level flyer, like your Infinity, and everybody flys two rounds
Since there is no question about the planes capabilities, it all comes down to the pilot.
Great idea Brett.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[David Russum]

The racers do this with Clown Racing and Foxberg racing (well, Foxberg is a 3 design contest, with the Goldberg Shoestring, Buster and Cosmic Wind, but it's the same idea).  Foxberg is a popular entry level class and Clown racing is especially popular nationwide, with some very different approaches - Rossis, combat engines, Diesels, LA .15s....   Here are some links to the rules from the NCLRA website:

http://www.nclra.org/Rules/NCLRAClown.html

http://www.nclra.org/SouthCentral/Wichita_g.htm

http://www.nclra.org/SouthCentral/DMAA_G.htm

[Brett Buck]

Interesting idea. I'm thinking we could use an airplane that is in perfect trim, by a top level flyer, like your Infinity, and everybody flys two rounds
Since there is no question about the planes capabilities, it all comes down to the pilot.
Great idea Brett.

    That's a good idea, however, I think a Thunderbird with an Aero-Tiger would be a better choice. If only I knew where to get one!

   Brett

[Doug Knoyle]

   Boy did that back-fire  -  I brought it up to hint at the direction things would go (in an extreme sense) should we do away with BOM.  If all the BOM faithful quit out of spite, and the supposed saplings came out of the wood-work to fly,  everyone (with time) would just be buying the best ARF of the day.  It was a stretch but .....

[Brett Buck]

 Boy did that back-fire  -  I brought it up to hint at the direction things would go (in an extreme sense) should we do away with BOM.  If all the BOM faithful quit out of spite, and the supposed saplings came out of the wood-work to fly,  everyone (with time) would just be bying the best ARF of the day.  It was a stretch but .....

   Not to worry, I am certainly not going to get rid of the BOM. The topic of one-design contests come up pretty frequently.

   Brett

[Larry Fernandez]

If there is a local interest in this event, I would be willing to build a couple of Skyrays with FP .20's. An easy to build plane that is quite capable of 500 scores. Rugged, and if it gets dorked we set up the second one. Since its a quick to build, minimal effort  plane, contestants should not be afraid to wring it out.
This might be fun.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Tim Wescott]

Although I'm getting better at the whole ground-avoidance thing, what would keep me out of any contest where the sponsor provided the plane would be a strong disinclination to risk crashing someone else's plane.

A one design contest, OTOH, would be attractive.  I think that if you did that you'd have to call out not only the airframe design, but the engine, too -- or just pick an airframe that plays well with one of the LA engines, to the point where having a $400 engine isn't going to give that huge of an advantage.

[PJ Rowland]

I can remember going to a contest where there were no less than 13 Impacts - mostly Piped..

Mid 90's!

[Doug Knoyle]

I've been looking for some spice to attract attention to a new contest we have room for on our local calendar next season; HOWEVER, since you (Brett) didn't make the NW Regional this year - how about this:



I know the NWR is a packed 3 days, but if I can get it added, I'll build and make ready (with help of respected "Trimmers") three S1's with electric power (for consistency)  if you'll come compete.  There will be no skill classes - just a "you crash it, you pay for it" clause.    

AND/OR

...I have already started considering a money contest - an entry fee ($35 6month pre-entry/ $50 "at the door"). This way we can get an idea of how many planes are needed and have time to trim them. Obviously more thought is needed, but money off the top can pay for the planes and the rest goes to prize money (places paid depending on number of entrants)

AND/OR ?

[Brett Buck]

I can remember going to a contest where there were no less than 13 Impacts - mostly Piped..

Mid 90's!

  Maybe the Aussie are smarter than most US pilots. At that time we had a bunch of people trying to do just the opposite -  because they thought they knew better, and then claiming everybody was plotting against them when it turned out they didn't

    Brett

[Brett Buck]

I've been looking for some spice to attract attention to a new contest we have room for on our local calendar next season; HOWEVER, since you (Brett) didn't make the NW Regional this year - how about this:

   I wasn't actually proposing it, but far be it for me to interfere. I just wanted to know what was done and how it worked out.

   Brett

[Phil Hawkins]

The Knights host such an event. In theory anyway. A few guys are building, who's names shall remain anonymous to protect the innocent, three identical...      RSM Mustang 15's for the pending IROC event... It's been so long since I sat in on a Knights meeting I forgot the details of the event but one plane is very near completed. But you can stick a cigarette in my eye before I tell ya who built it!

[Derek Barry]

One time at the Huntersville contest it was raining and nobody wanted to pull out their good plane. Will Davis brought out his TEOSAWKI and 5 or 6 of us flew it. I think I won that one.

Derek

[John Lindberg]

Our club used to have a one design contest, the plane was the "Nova-Clone", after our club's name that is in Northern Virginia. We flew Beginners Stunt, duration, and a few other things. The plane resembled a Flite Streak, it was alot of fun. Maybe Scott Richlen will chime in, he is alot more familar with it. 

[John Stiles]

One of my favorite races of all times was the International Race of Champions....all cars were identical and had the same starting setups! IROC of the NASCAR....be cool to watch something like that in C/L

[John Cralley]

Well, there is "One Design" contest every Spring in Houston, TX!!
It is called the Ringmaster Roundup and only S-1 Ringmasters are allowed (the original Matt Kania design).

This is a two day competition (Sat. and Sun.) with an additional Friday Fun Fly, balloon burst and fast/slow day thrown in (models do not have to be S-1 Ringmasters on Friday). Saturday is a regular PAMPA stunt contest and Sunday is a "Team Stunt event". You can read about the Sunday event below.

Here is a write up that Dee Rice posted about the 2012 event:


                                             2012 Ringmaster Roundup
Dee Rice

It is that time of year again and the 2012 Ringmaster Roundup is just around the corner. This Roundup will be number five and it looks like there will be many, many more. The 2012 Roundup will happen at the beautiful Scobee Model Flying Park in Houston, Texas on May 18 (informal events) and May 19 and 20. Every year it just gets bigger and better and this year will be no exception.

This fun gathering and competition is the off spring of The Brotherhood of the Ring web site. It consists of a group of fliers that just happens to love the venerable little Ringmaster, designed in 1950 by Matt Kania. The www.brotherhoodofthering.info location is the busy conversation point for fliers all across the world, with hundreds of signed on members.  

Although the Ringmaster Roundup is held primarily for the one and only S-1 Ringmaster design, close look-alikes have a place at the Roundup too. Ringmaster derivatives can fly in the Friday Balloon Bust and fast/slow events, as well as compete for the prestigious non S-1 (Special Edition)  pilots choice event.

One of the fun milestones of the Roundup is the choosing of the teams for Sunday. This occurs after the OTS and Classic patterns are completed on Saturday. The top Expert pilots take turns choosing until the four person teams are complete. Each entrant is on a team and contributes in an important way. Although the teams usually consist of an Expert, Advanced, Intermediate and Beginner pilots, the teams are adjusted to be as balanced as possible.

In Team Stunt, each member of the team flies one event on Sunday. The teams decide which flier will fly what event. The events are: 1. Old Time Stunt, 2. AMA Pattern Stunt, 3. The Unknown Stunt Pattern and 4. Team Pursuit.  Points toward the overall Champion Team are accumulated with each event.

The Unknown pattern is fun to watch, because neither the judges nor the fliers have ever seen many of the maneuvers, which may include an overhead four leaf clover, vertical square eights, point down triangles, and maybe even a square four leaf clover. It is rare for a pilot to get in a clean pattern………..especially with all the laughing spectators and semi-confused judges.

The final and most fun event is the Team Pursuit. The least experienced pilot flies the drone plane with a streamer and one of the more experienced pilots flies the Pursuit plane with a streamer. The drone flies level and the pursuit ship makes scoring passes by cutting off scoring bits of the streamer. If the streamer on the drone gets too short, the pursuit plane may then make scoring passes by flying in front of the drone, hence cutting off bits of the pursuit plane‘s streamer. Dale Gleason’s team won this event in 2010 with an amazing nine cuts! It is the current record.
 
The awards are special too, since everyone wins. There are prizes for all and they will be given out in a special lottery. The number of lottery tickets awarded are based proportionally on the entrant’s performance in each event, including the team event. Every pilot has a chance to take home the top prize as well as the hard working judges, who also participate.  

There are always surprise prizes for things like the heaviest, the lightest, or maybe the homeliest Ringmaster. Even a prize for the entrant who comes from the farthest away or has the lowest AMA number has been awarded.  

Our wonderful and consistent sponsors have been Brodak Manufacturing, Riche’s Brew Fuel and the terrific members of the Brotherhood of the Ring. We are looking for more, of course.

Send in your pre entry if you can as all pre entries get a free beautiful engraved “crystal” commemorative mug or other nice memento.  Pre-entries need to be post marked by May 1. For information concerning the format of the events, parties, motels and questions, you can go to www.brotherhoodofthering or contact me directly.  

Contact Dee Rice for details at ….    golfrice1@yahoo.com

[Igor Burger]

no problem, big fun and attracts 5x more people than ususla contest when begginer must copete with beginners model against eperienced pilots with top model :- )) ... usually we have less sthan 10 pilots on our contests and here we have usually 30 from the same area (including many R/C flyesr who simply wanted to remind what they did young)  

[Jim Thomerson]

I've flown in a Flitestreak only event; bring your Flitestreak or borrow one.

[Will Hinton]

This is a bit in the (distant) past, but four of us had a combat event that ran all summer, keeping points until the "champion" was crowned that had to use Goldberg profiles with Fox 35's on 60' lines and 10% fuel.  Talk about even competition!  That was a blast.  High point guy at the end of summer got a gallon of fuel of his choice.

[john e. holliday]

I agree about he Ringmaster for a one design airplane.   Which engine is hard to say as I won my firt trophies flying a Ringmaster with a McCoy .35 Redhead that didn't exist at the time.  Still have the trophies.   Yes, it is being done in Texas in the early part of the year.  The Marathon is in the latter part of the year.  Maybe require them to fly the Old Time Pattern or the Beginners Pattern.   So it is being done already in Texas and looks to be growing.

Ringmasters, going back to our roots for some of us.

[Bob Kruger]

Our club used to have a one design contest, the plane was the "Nova-Clone", after our club's name that is in Northern Virginia. We flew Beginners Stunt, duration, and a few other things. The plane resembled a Flite Streak, it was alot of fun. Maybe Scott Richlen will chime in, he is alot more familar with it. 

One of my favorite races of all times was the International Race of Champions....all cares were identical and had the same starting setups! IROC of the NASCAR....be cool to watch something like that in C/L

John;

I was going through some CAD files the other day and found the "Nova-Clone" that I did from the sketch that was in "Stunt News"  I built a couple of these when I started back in building and flying years ago.  The rudder reminded one of a Mooney small aircraft.  If I recall, the basic measurements were:

Wingspan less tips:  36"
Wingspan with tips:  42"
Wing chord without flaps:  10"
Wing rib thickness:  1.75"
Flap chord at root:  1.5"
Fuselage Length:  24"
Stab and elevator span:  18"
Stab chord:  2"
Elevator chord: 2"

It only had room for a 3 - 3.5 oz tank, so with a Fox 35 it could not do the whole pattern.  But, with an LA 25 it is a very nice flyer.  It is also very inexpensive to build.

I think my only variation was to make the bottom motor mount a little longer than the top to help dampen vibration.

What I didn't know was some of the wood sizes for the ribs, rudder, elevator, and stab.  I think I finally went with 1/16" for the wing ribs, 1/8" for the rudder, and 3/16" for the stab and elevator.  I also used 3/32" for the fuselage doublers. 

Interestingly, a couple of years ago I found two kits in one box at the Southeast Model Show in Griffin, GA.  Both were hand cut, and both appeared to be the Novaclone.  Made me wonder if someone made a business out of cutting them.

If Scott R. would verify the plans and with the consent of the Northern Virginia Club, I would be glad to release them in Adobe PDF format gratis.  However, if it is something that is distributed by NV club to raise funds, I will respect their wishes and keep it private. 

I think that the Novaclone is a great first scratch build for an inexperienced builder.

V/r

Bob Kruger

[Derek Moran]

Brett,
Check with Dan regarding the one plane event held at the VGMC meet a couple years ago.  Dan supplied the plane (a Flight Streak w/.20 FP) and Bruce Perry won.
Derek

[Brett Buck]

Dan supplied the plane (a Flight Streak w/.20 FP) and Bruce Perry won.

  That seems like a flaw right there!.

  Brett

[Larry Fernandez]

I agree about he Ringmaster for a one design airplane. 

I would much rather prefer a plane capable of a decent stunt pattern.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Dennis Adamisin]

I would much rather prefer a plane capable of a decent stunt pattern.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Agree!

Another approach would be to change the "one design" annually (or maybe bi-annually?) I think it is the NFFS (or maybe SAM) that does that, announces a single design for a given year, then organizers can choose to run the one-design event.  Next year its a new design, etc.  Typically they use older/published designs that are known good flyers.  A similar "formula" here would keep things fresh..?

[John Lindberg]

Bob, those kits were cut by a member of our club, Richard Houser, I learned to fly the beginner pattern on mine. It was a popular event at our club until the Musciano event took precedent. I'm sure Scott Richlen would ok it. 

[Brett Buck]

Agree!

Another approach would be to change the "one design" annually (or maybe bi-annually?) I think it is the NFFS (or maybe SAM) that does that, announces a single design for a given year, then organizers can choose to run the one-design event.  Next year its a new design, etc.  Typically they use older/published designs that are known good flyers.  A similar "formula" here would keep things fresh..?

   A known good design, but simple to build,  is certainly what you want. No one is going to spend ~a week or two building a dog.

    Brett

[FLOYD CARTER]

Any "one design" event must be held in an area where many flyers reside, or can travel not too far.  That is because I estimate that maybe only 5% of the flying population will want to build or buy a plane dictated by others just for one special contest.  Most active flyers have their own favorite designs, and would hesitate to dilute their time and money with a plane they didn't particularly like.

I would go for a one-design contest, but I will not build a profile model!

Floyd

[John Cralley]

I would much rather prefer a plane capable of a decent stunt pattern. Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Well Larry, I guess you haven't seen Joe Gilbert, Dale Gleason, Richard Oliver, Dee Rice or Don Cranfill fly their full PAMPA/AMA patterns using their S-1 Ringmasters. 

Built light, powered with a modern 25 and trimmed correctly they can put up very impressive flights. The beauty of the Ringmaster S-1 is that it can be built in just a few evenings from laser cut kits/short kits that are available or scratch built from plans. I understand that the record is a build of an S-1 on the tailgate of a truck in ONE day at one of the VSC meets. 

[Larry Fernandez]

   A known good design, but simple to build,  is certainly what you want. No one is going to spend ~a week or two building a dog.

    Brett

Skyray??

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Larry Fernandez]

Well Larry, I guess you haven't seen Joe Gilbert, Dale Gleason, Richard Oliver, Dee Rice or Don Cranfill fly their full PAMPA/AMA patterns using their S-1 Ringmasters.  n

No John, I haven't seen their Ringmasters, BUT I have seen AND flown (many, many times) a 19 ounce Ringmaster that won Old time Stunt at the Golden State Stunt Championships.(No small local contest, mind you). I have also flown numerous Skyrays and there is no comparison between the two, I'll take the Skyray any day.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[RogerGreene]

I designed a plane similar to the specifications except is has a chord of 6.5" and flaps of 1.5" The AETOS was published in Model aviation March 1979. It is designed for a .25 or .20 engine and will complete the stunt pattern.  And it qualifies for the Nostalgia 30 too.

Roger Greene

[Peter Ferguson]

Surprisingly, I actually have some experience with a one design contest. I flew IMAC for many years which replicates full scale IAC aerobatics. In full scale they opened up a class for a one design plane named the "One Design" its advantage was that it was cheap to build and operate and it was pretty good aerobatically speaking. The guys in IMAC wanted to replicate that class and have everyone build and compete with "One Design" airplanes. The problem was everyone at the time was competing with Extra 300 type planes which performed much better than the "One Design" (and is still the standard) . The cost issue did not translate down to models so nobody , except a few , were interested in spending their time building a second rate aerobatic plane to compete in one class. thus the class never took off.  The arguement was "we are flying a one design , its called the Extra 300"!    So what can you get out of this? Don't make it a second rate performer.. Look at what people are currently flying and try to build around the planes that are currently out there. If it was me I'd make it a Vector class or a Nobler theres lots already out there and they perform very well.  I wouldn't restrict it at all except maybe the engine: ARFs, ARC's, Kits or scratch let the results dictate what becomes the most popular choice.

[FLOYD CARTER]

Even though I am not a fan of profiles, I did build a S-1 Ringmaster at 22 oz.  OS25FP.

Floyd

[Kim Mortimore]

"One time at the Huntersville contest it was raining and nobody wanted to pull out their good plane. Will Davis brought out his TEOSAWKI and 5 or 6 of us flew it. I think I won that one. Smiley

Derek"

Derek,
What did you think of the TEOSAWKI?

[bob branch]

Something like a Brodak Pathfinder or Brodak P-40. Use any version, kit, arf, arc. Specify the a couple of simple motors, like an evo and a Brodak .40. Give an electric option. Just specify the prop and that will bring them all pretty much equal. Restrict the electrics to normal rotation and not reverse rotation so its a level field. Put a minimum weight on the planes with no fuel or battery. The electronics and empty tanks will about balance out. Specify the line length. Any finish allowable. Add weight to light airplane on the fuse at the kit specified cg to make the weights come out even. It will have the planes about as equal as you can want. The lap times and prop will equalize out the power systems. Fly the full pattern. If you want to have variety change the model each year or two. One design sailing is the pinnacle of competition. All the olympic classes are the same boats. But the until recently when the IOC finally forced it the Laser was the boat EVERYONE sailed to train for the olympics... because they were all the same. The class members turned the olympics down many years ago cause they did not want people cheating and messing with the boats. Finally to get the olympics more fair the host nation provides all the lasers and their sails. Go to the America's cup and you will find everyone sailing lasers to practice. Its level, fair, hard nosed competition and the best will win. No excuse for the boat... or in our case plane. Don't supply them, the members of the hobby want to build them... each to his own. Don't limit folks. If they want to do a kit and paint it great! If they want to do an arc or an arf, great. Everyone is dealing with the same plane and if the weight, prop, and lines are regulated the planes will come out pretty even and you can trim your own and learn from how others trim theirs.

It really does work. The very best sailors all over the world come from that little 125 pound boat. The most dominating crew I ever saw sail was made up of all members of a local laser fleet. Full crew of excellent sail trimmers, helmsmen, tacticians, and boat setup experts. Sure glad it was mine.

bob branch

ps, oh, one design is an absolute ball! But its really hard to come up with excuses.

[RogerGreene]

I like the ieda of a one design. But the problem is what are the limits? Then what engine size, then what wing area or span, then what tank size the limit?

Roger

[Brett Buck]

I like the ieda of a one design. But the problem is what are the limits? Then what engine size, then what wing area or span, then what tank size the limit?

   You don't need limits, the design is fixed. Pick one that everybody will like.

   Brett

[EddyR]

"One time at the Huntersville contest it was raining and nobody wanted to pull out their good plane. Will Davis brought out his TEOSAWKI and 5 or 6 of us flew it. I think I won that one. Smiley

Derek"

Derek,
What did you think of the TEOSAWKI?

I was the judge for those rainy flights using the Teosawki. I think I was the only judge. I was the only one with a umbrella. There were several well known flyers that flew and one of them crashed the weather was so bad. The Teosawki is a very big plane and the performance leaves little to be desired. It can fly at the highest level in competition but it looks odd  in flight because it is so skinny from the side view. They fly much better than they score. I have judged them many times as they were from this area. They fly above average in bad weather.
Ed

[Bill Little]

I hope no one else has mentioned this, but I would go with a One Class Twister Competition.  Box Stock.  Engine unlimited.  Just no modifications to the kit.  It will fly about as good as anyone can fly it.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[RogerGreene]

Ok a Flight Streak is a good one design plane. Making the leading edge using typical "D" tube construction.. It will fly good using a .25 to .35 engine.

Roger

[Bill Little]

Ok a Flight Streak is a good one design plane. Making the leading edge using typical "D" tube construction.. It will fly good using a .25 to .35 engine.

Roger

Hi Roger,

The Flight Streak will fly over 500 point patterns so it would be a good choice.  Brodak has a great kit from what I understand.  I still believe it should be based on one kit, built stock, and everything else is unlimited.  Choose your own power train.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Mike Scholtes]

As noted by others, us Free Flight guys have been doing this for years, and it is a very popular class and concept. There is a one design per year (this year the Goldberg Viking, which I flew in the 1963 Nats) and the perennial Starduster class limited to no more than a TeeDee 049. For CL line no reason why a "permanent one design" would not work, like a Doctor with no more than LA46, or with flaps a Cardinal with LA46. I suspect that someone like Walter Umland could be talked into kitting a one-design, like in the FF world. Or a Skyray with anything up to a .25. Other examples of one design are sailboats like Bob mentions, and "spec racers" in road racing, all the cars built by the same factory with factory-sealed identical engines. An extremely successful concept that brings lots of people into the sport, whatever the sport may be.

[RogerGreene]

BIG Bear,

I have one that I built in the sixies and it still flies great.

Roger

[Brett Buck]

Other examples of one design are sailboats like Bob mentions, and "spec racers" in road racing, all the cars built by the same factory with factory-sealed identical engines. An extremely successful concept that brings lots of people into the sport, whatever the sport may be.

     Right- but this is a different "sport" than conventional stunt, very different.

      Note that I am not proposing we do this, justing asking for other people's experience. Clint's "Stunt 25" event is much closer to what I would actually like to see than a one-design or "pool airplane" event, precisely because it is a full-featured stunt event, where creativity, design, and building skills are encouraged, not precluded.

    Handle-waving events, I can predict the results of virtually every one of them for the forseeable future, and instead of that, i would suggest we could get the same value by simply mailing a plastic bowling trophy to David's house twice a year and not bothering with the effort of actually flying the airplanes.

    Brett

   

[Larry Fernandez]

[quote author=Brett Buck

    Handle-waving events, I can predict the results of virtually every one of them for the forseeable future, and instead of that, i would suggest we could get the same value by simply mailing a plastic bowling trophy to David's house twice a year and not bothering with the effort of actually flying the airplanes.

    Brett

   
[/quote]

SSSSSSSHHHHHHHHH
This is why we are not going to tell Dave about this.
Mums the word.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[john e. holliday]

Is this the reason David took a year off to run what I think was a great NATS?    From what I read, it was a great one considering the weather.