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Author Topic: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)  (Read 12672 times)

Offline SteveMoon

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2008, 08:09:29 AM »
Well said Bob; the truth hurts, but it is the truth. Very well said Rudy.

Dave S.: I find your comment about 'lazy' buildiers to be rather offensive.
I assume you are referring to people who want to fly arfs or arcs as
lazy. That is assanine. There are a myriad of reasons why someone would
want to go in this direction. Is my brother 'lazy' because he has 3 young
children and by the time 9:00 pm rolls around and they're all in bed he's
too exhausted to stand up, much less go out in the garage and build an
airplane? Am I lazy because I'm a single parent who is gone from home
two weeks of every month working and when I'm home I don't want to
spend all my time holed up in the garage, but rather with my son and friends?
Is my buddy John lazy because he is allergic to epoxy and building an
ARF is about all he can get through?

I don't dislike building. I don't dislike ARFs. There's room for all of it here.
Removing BOM from other facets of the model airplane hobby has not
diminished those facets in any way, and it won't in CLPA when it finally
happens.

Later, Steve

Offline Dick Fowler

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2008, 08:59:17 AM »
Steve, you pretty much hit it on the head! Tolerance... Tolerance...Tolerance, after all at the end of the day it is only a hobby!
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2008, 09:32:04 AM »
.......it is only a hobby!


DING DING DING DING!!!!

Award this man 234 points!!!!

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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2008, 10:27:34 AM »
Yes ARF/ARC's have their place.  Unless the the pre-teen or teenagers get interested it is because of the parents.  Yes I have had mothers call me about getting a son started.  In fact his sister soloed before he did using my trusty old Ringmaster with Fox 35 Stunt.  By the way Steve, is the Gieske Nobler ARF ready for delivery yet?  DOC Holliday
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2008, 12:00:41 PM »
OK, one last comment then I'll just shut up. This will likely always be a contentious topic. You have the folks that feel that getting rid of the BOM will kill the event. I doubt it. It may end up looking like my local RC field does. A bunch of shrink wrapped planes that the owners of which have no idea of how they work or how to fix them when they break. But the other side is, they have a lot of guys. They have probably 80 members (and this is a small area). 40 are hard core, out there all the time guys and the other 40 come and go. Again, makes no difference to how I go about my business, but if it actually generates interest, great!

I agree that being inclusive is better than exclusive for the health of the event. It's why I collaborated with Marvin Denny in coming up with a new set of rules about variable points for appearance depending on what you did. I still don't think that's a bad way to go. An inclusive approach. I also agree with Steve that just because someone is not able to put the time into this to learn to build or perhaps doesn't like building planes all that much, it shouldn't exclude him. As my friend Dirty Dan is famous for saying, those that can build will always be at the mercy of those that can't. But that doesn't mean that those that don't (for whatever reason, even if it is laziness) should be excluded from enjoying doing this.

So I'm good whatever way it goes.
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Offline SteveMoon

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2008, 02:41:46 PM »
I'm actually enjoying this debate. It hasn't gotten to
out of hand or mean spirited.

Doc: The GN ARFs should be arriving anyday. The boat was
due in this week, then it takes about 2 weeks to clear
customs. Hopefully, they'll be ready to ship the first
week of May.

I'll elt everyone know.

Steve

Offline Bob Whitely

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2008, 03:06:37 PM »
Thirty years ago I also heard the same thing.  Controlline was going downhill with all the RC stuff that was being presented.  Now it's computer games etc.  Computers do not give you the visceral thrill  of actually building or flying the plane.  I think you're too hung up on computers to realize there are some out there that would rather actually do something than to look at a video screen.  Mostly the computer geeks wouldn't make good modellers anyway as they would rather sit in a chair than do anything physical. 

So do tell me please, how does keeping the BOM and APs' in our hobby relate to non-inclusive?  Most of the people making noise about these don't fly in contests anyway so why do they care what we do?  I'm glad that they have a chance to fly their arfs' but also they need to keep out of what we do as competitors or learn how to do what we do.  Like you said it is not rocket science, I did it and so can they if they wanted to.  Back to you....RJ


Offline Dick Fowler

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2008, 08:14:49 PM »
Anybody have a "visceral" building thrill today? I tried sanding a wing but nothing gut wrenching or heart stopping happened. Heckl ... my blood pressure didn't budge at all. WHAT AM I DOING WRONG?  D>K
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Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2008, 11:26:02 PM »
My first post on this thread.

While I have always been against the ARF/ARC movement, my views are starting to change somewhat. As contest participation increases with the use of ARF's, I'm seeing that those that start with them are moving on to building projects as their flying skills advance. Not a lot of ARF's in the advanced and expert classes. A beginner with a ARF is better to have at the contest than no participation at all. Sometimes a pilot is more likely to do well with an "expendable" model to learn on. I have seen people build their first stunter only to have it destroyed in short order while learning the full pattern. Then, often not having enough ambition to continue on with the hobby. I've also seen well experienced pilots that simply can't build anymore be able to still enjoy the flying aspect of the hobby. In all cases, I never seen anyone NOT having a good time with them and ARF's should not only be welcomed, but encouraged to to compete.
 However, I'm still in favor of awarding appearance points to the builder of the model and not to ARF's. It's just that little extra bonus that should go to those that put forth the effort to construct their models. I think that just maybe it could be incentive to ARF pilots keep moving forward. In my mind, the hobby isn't just about flying, but about imagination, design, construction, artistic value, ect.. If we just let it be a flying only event, it quickly becomes a boring, commercial venture with little to offer for the creative mind. It may very well be that some will never expand into the building aspect of CLPA, and that's ok. But I think they will be missing out some of the best parts of the hobby.
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Offline Rudy Taube

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #59 on: April 20, 2008, 01:48:33 AM »
Hi Robert,

That is an important question.  The subject of "teaching craftmanship" has been brought up many times when the BOM is discussed. I hope we can discuss this part of the BOM issue in a larger context than it has been talked about before.

First, as posted on this thread earlier by someone else, we do have to keep in mind that our very small part of a very small hobby will have basically zero impact on this important educational issue. I know your heart (and many others) is in the right place on this issue and my hat is off to you for caring about the future of our children.

My guess is that our energy would be better spent on teaching our children skills that are more in line with the future world they will live in, not the world we have lived in during our time on this spaceship. Yes, there are definitely some ancillary benefits to the skills learned building a model plane. But the main skills are dated, and of very little interest, or value to the youth of today. Their future will be so radically different than our past that we are not able to comprehend it in any rational way. The best we can do as educators is to try and see trends and then do our best to prepare our children to cope with constant, rapid change in a world that will use brains more, and hands less.

Your point about craftsmanship still being important is correct. But we have to see craftsmanship in a larger context, and through their eyes, as they see their future, not as we see the present, or our past.

Craftsman = Skilled Artisan.

Some on this forum will see that as someone who creates a model airplane and is able to paint it and put on a shiny finish. But today, and certainly in our children's future a Craftsman, "Skilled Artisan" will be someone who can create computer programs that operate a robot on a production line that builds more robots, or widgets. Or it will be someone who will create holograms used in ways we can't even imagine yet. They are, and will be, the craftsman who use computers to create the incedible CGI we see in movies today, and the amazing 3D CGI we will see in the future. They will be the craftsman who use computers to design and build structures that will be assembled by robotic machines, etc.

The children who use computers today are the Craftsman of the future. The computer games of today allow the user to be much more creative than most adults realize. It teaches many skills that these futrue craftsman will use as they combine their creative skills with their formal educations to prepare for the radically different jobs our grandchildren will have in their future.

I feel we have to be careful that our older generation does not let our natural tendency toward nostalgia cloud our judgement on issues like this. What may have been useful for us most likely will have very little use for our children in their future. The world is changing much too rapidly for skill sets to last that long.

Now, my guess is that you were also referring to some of the character building traits that building a model brings. Like; sticking with a project to completion, a strong work ethic, reading skills, facing a challenge and dealing with that challenge successfully. Yes, these are very important. But all of them can be learned from many other, more forward looking, activities the youth of today can participate in.

I hope this short note has not been offensive or disrespectful in any way, that certainly was not my intent. If the BOM passes into history someday, I don't think it will have any negative effect on all the young people coming into CL.

Thank you again Robert for starting this thread, and allowing us to voice our opinions on this issue, on your forum.  Like Steve Moon said, this has been an enjoyable thread. :-)

Regards,  H^^

Rudy I do understand what you are saying. However can you tell me what a video game can teach you in the way of craftsmanship? The dumbing down of America must end somewhere. Shoot I forgot who needs craftsmanship everything is made in China.
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Offline dave shirley jr

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #60 on: April 20, 2008, 09:08:44 AM »
clint,
I couldn't agree more
Rudy i couldnt dissagree more
i believe (hope) there will allways be those who build true artistic items wether they are classic art, industrial art, model airplanes ,custom cars, fine furniture etc. this is allready a problem in the construction industries, we still need those who can assemble the parts/buildings.and nobody seems to want to put an emphsis on teaching these skills. i think you and i would have a hard time agreeing on the color of the sky. so i will just agree to dissagree.
Dave.

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #61 on: April 20, 2008, 11:09:06 AM »
Ok, I thought I was done with this, but I couldn't let this comment pass:

>>Yes, there are definitely some ancillary benefits to the skills learned building a model plane. But the main skills are dated, and of very little interest, or value to the youth of today.>>

I couldn't disagree more. The actual skills of building: cutting and gluing wood together and such, well, your right. They are limited in value except to the model plane builder. But the principals are invaluable. Through model building I've learned patience, an ability to take one thing at a time, do it well, then move on. The tenacity to hang with something until it's done. Further it's the ability to visualize a project and see it through to completion. To have something go from my mind to the air and it be pretty much as I visualized it. Diligence, craftsmanship and pride of workmanship are applicable to so many other endeavors. 

Those skills are the ones that our society is losing. Interesting that you bring up computers. My son and I, when he was a little guy, built planes together. He learned the skills and may someday come back to flying. He liked doing it, but it was mostly to give us something to do together. He's in college studying audio engineering (mostly computer based these days). He tells me that the skills of patience and doing something right have served him well. He's a meticulous craftsman now and keeps at a project until it's "right". Model building taught him that. But he also tells me that many think he takes things way too far. That he should just be happy with "good enough". He and I both see that as the problem with how people now go about their business. Don't worry about doing it right, just get it done and move on.

I believe that the values that building AND flying teaches and the satisfaction of the process are well worth it. And even if I only get one or two kids to see that, it's well worth it to me. Instant gratification is all well and good. There are certainly times when I just want it now and don't want to wait. But is it a trait that we want society to rest on? Heck, it's one of the reasons that America doesn't save money and doesn't think about the future. They want it now. Make the maximum amount of money now. Don't worry about what may go by the wayside as a result. Don't worry about who gets hurt. Just do it now. We are one of the most indebted countries in the world per capita. And it's not hard to tell how we got there.

OK, I've rambled enough and taken this a bit off track from were I was going, but I think we can all make some small difference. As I say, if I can just get two kids to see the value of learning a skill; learning patience and diligence and some pride of workmanship, then there are twice as many folks that think that way as there were before and we are all better off.

Now I am done.
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Offline RC Storick

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #62 on: April 20, 2008, 12:53:00 PM »
Yes computers are a great part of society. However if your car beaks down will the computer fix it? If we are all salesmen and computer people who will fix the equipment? We still need people with some kind of skills besides computers.

Modeling teaches you basic aerodynamics, Basic engine tuning, Basic drafting skills,Basic design skills,basic painting skills ( along with that comes basic chemistry) Basic math, basic soldering skills. Those builders who become more proficient lean more than basic skills in all these areas. So to me its a no brainer.
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2008, 07:34:24 PM »
Yes computers are a great part of society. However if your car beaks down will the computer fix it?....


No but it sure as heck will help tell you what to fix.  Pretty much takes the guess work out of it.   #^

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Offline RC Storick

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #64 on: April 20, 2008, 07:46:08 PM »
I am digital technition qualified and it does not tell you what to fix or where to look except for EFI management systems. So your grasping at straws.
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Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #65 on: April 20, 2008, 08:59:31 PM »
I am going to see if I can write a LONGER post than Rudy!   n~

Aeromodeling is NOT a main stream activity - I can happily accept that there are fewer aeromodelers than WarCraft gamers.  CL flying, CLPA, and CLPA Competition are progressively more "eccentric" and exclusive fraternitys - that's OK too.Flew my first NATs in 1965 at the age of 11, Looking forward to my next CLPA NATs in 2008.  During all of that time CL was going to die within 5 years.  Well, like the skydiver who's chute hasn't opened but who hasn't "landed" yet, we're all right so far!

I'm straddling the BOM arguments - making me ROAD KILL for either side!  I can tell you that I believe in the BOM, but I am unwilling to stifle the advancement of CLPA products - that in many cases blur the BOM issue. 

It is now considered "normal" to allow an ARF or non-BOM'ers to fly but give up appearance points.  However, when I started in the mid 1960's if you didn't build then you did not fly either.  I don't think those times are ever coming back, & I'm not losing any sleep over it.  The point is the interpretation of BOM and its consequences have been evolving over a very long time, and we are unlikely to go back in time.

As our technology continues to improve, it is now feasible to prefabricate major components as well as the total package, and its possible to do it cheaply.  There WERE grumblings about BOM when good foam wings became available; seems silly now that so many people have used one.  Now technology has advanced to concepts like pre-fabbed Lost Foam wings - 30 years ago THAT might have been perceived as non-BOM - but now its accepted.

BTW, we ain't seen nothing yet.  You only have to look as far as our Dark Arts brothers to know that pre painted, molded wings and fuselages are OLD NEWS.  Now a "moldie" has won the NATs.  SOMEBODY is using up a lot of balsa, and really good stuff is getting too scarce to find.  Moldies are here to stay, and contrary to what you have been told it is IMPOSSIBLE to accurately build a moldie outside its mold.  So will we allow prebuilt wood or foam wings but exclude moldies just because they require no wood? 

Did I mention pre-fabbed Tom Morris control systems?  Are these BOM or non-BOM?  Pre-bent or composite landing gear?  Glass wheelpants?  Hard-core BOM'ers (like me) need to accept and EMBRACE the continuing improvement of the state of the art, and realize that the thresholds of BOM are continuing to erode - but that ain't ALL bad!

On the other hand, non-BOM'ers must learn to comprehend this: ITS NOT (just) ABOUT THE FLYING!  Nor has it ever been.  Read your rulebook;  the first manuver is Appearance, and it is the one you have the most control over.  I wish I had a nickel for every time I've heard "I lost the NATs because of Appearance Points".  Think about it: if this is simply a flying event but the flying did not provide meaningful separation of the competitors, then it is NOT a flying event at all - because the single "Appearance" manuver with half the available score of any other single manuver determined the winner!  Folks, there are LOTS of other manuvers in the pattern that "lost" your NATs.  Go  practice some more so you can be a flyer too.

The good news is that pre-fabbed components all the way through ARF's makes it easier for more people to participate.  The bad news - we are losing the creative spark that has kept the CLPA fire burning for so long.  DO NOT underestimate that creative side. No doubt you have heard Ted's comment about all of us flying blue monocoted Noblers at VSC #50!  Even here, creativity rears up:  How many ARF Noblers have we seen that had the blue monocote stripped off only to be recovered in a different color of monocote or even PAINTED? How come you can call Brodak and find the ARC's in short supply (if they are in stock at all) while they have an inventory of ARF's at (typically) only $5 more?  You can argue that ARF-cote is no good, but how do you explain the BLUE monocoted Nobler becoming a RED monocoted Nobler?  The easy answer; everyone else has a BLUE Nobler, I wanted a RED Nobler - to be different!

From a performance standpoint, modern airplanes & engines are better than ever, but I will argue that the biggest reason we have a viable Classic event is because those designs STIR the soul.  Think about it, do we really fly Classics because we LOVE 40 year old aerodynamics and Fox 35's?  Most folks modernize the engines and have discovered that the old birds fly just fine.  However, if it was ALL about the FLYING there would be NO Classic event!  By comparison (with a handful of exceptions) MOST contemporary designs, are simply appliances.  Heck most don't even have canopies!

I say again ITS NOT (just) ABOUT THE FLYING!  Nor has it ever been.  Non-BOM'ers must learn to comprehend this - that CLPA is TOTAL PERFORMANCE art.

So how can we embrace the advance of pre-fabbed technology while retaining the spark of creativity?  How much BOM content can we afford to give up in the name of participation yet still remain a CLASS event?

I think the answer will:

* Ignore BOM because it is difficult to keep up with the state of the art and basically not enforceable anyway.

* Reward creativity and willingness to stand out from the crowd, to rise above the ARFs, ARCs, and clones.  Every effort that rises above the standard issue needs to be acknowledged and celebrated.  This will remain the first manuver in the pattern and will be called "Appearance".

This sounds like a tough nut to crack, the EASY way out is to simply chuck BOM & appearance points - but I think that will be as serious a mistake as eliminating Originality and Realism points was back in the 1970's.  I need to dig-up and re-read Marv's Appearance Point schedule again - I think or next bet answer will look a lot like that...
Denny Adamisin
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #66 on: April 20, 2008, 11:18:09 PM »
Dennis,

Yep, it was a long post.   ;D

I wrote up Marv's appearance points schedule in the hopes of compromising without giving up the basic idea. Be nice if it went somewhere. The basic idea was reward those that do a good job, regardless of what the job is (ARF, ARC or kit/scratch built).

>>By comparison (with a handful of exceptions) MOST contemporary designs, are simply appliances.<<

Hopefully I fall into the handful of exceptions.    HB~>
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2008, 02:17:07 AM »
 Here are the basics of Marvin Denny's BOM/Appearance points idea.

Bought, borrowed or stolen Ready to fly "0" points.

ARF : wing, fuselage, and tail feathers
built and covered ready to assemble 1 to 10 points.

ARC : (any or all of the following) Wing, fuselage and tail feathers
built and ready to cover. 5 to 15 points.

Kit/scratch built, Fuselage, wing, and tail feathers not pre built or
pre assembled 10 to 20 points. Multi piece parts such as spars,
engine mount crutches, bellcrank mounts, tip weight boxes, and
line guide assemblies may be from purchased sources without
penalty

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #68 on: April 21, 2008, 07:38:02 AM »
I am digital technition qualified and it does not tell you what to fix or where to look except for EFI management systems. So your grasping at straws.

Well I have had better luck than that using the computer to diagnose my nissan and my mits than just the EFT portions of the car.  But hey that is just me. 

Not trying to say the computer can do anything.  Just saying in the day and age of computer run cars without a computer to help diagnose it chasing stuff down could be very hard.

So no, I am not grasping at straws.  Not by my experience anyway.

On another note one of the MOST important things model building and construstion will provide someone is PROBLEM SOLVING SKILLS!!  Problem solvings skills include patience, situation examination skills, thought process to find the problem, then process on what steps to take to correct the problem, the evaluation of the correction to make sure it worked, oh and more patience.  BUT having said all that, trimming a model out can provide you with all the same skills as well.  Just in a different form. 

CLPA is like always solving a problem.  Always chasing down an answer. 

It provides Problem Solving Skills!


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Offline peabody

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #69 on: April 21, 2008, 06:33:35 PM »
I tend to agree that problem solving is the gratest thing learned from air modeling...although guys that do trains or gas/electric cars or boats possess the same capabilities.

There was an article in the New York TIMES several years ago about the fact that hobbies were dying.....not just toy aeroplanes, but all hobbies...that kids have dveloped "past times" instead...
Playing computer games or surfing the 'net aren't hobbies, they are past times....

Offline Rudy Taube

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #70 on: April 22, 2008, 12:48:01 AM »
Yes computers are a great part of society. However if your car beaks down will the computer fix it? If we are all salesmen and computer people who will fix the equipment? We still need people with some kind of skills besides computers.

Modeling teaches you basic aerodynamics, Basic engine tuning, Basic drafting skills,Basic design skills,basic painting skills ( along with that comes basic chemistry) Basic math, basic soldering skills. Those builders who become more proficient lean more than basic skills in all these areas. So to me its a no brainer.

Hi Robert,

Good points all. For those modelers like yourself; Randy Powell, the Moon's, Dennis A., etc. who I call MASTER builders, you all have benefited from learning the skills you mentioned.  And yes I agree with you,  some of these skills may still be helpful to workers in our children's future.

With that said:  IF, and that is a big IF,  young people had any interest in our small hobby, and were coming into it in large #s, then your good points might help the cause of keeping the BOM rule in place. But in our very small part of the aero modeling hobby the average age must be somewhere around 60+. Yes, there are a few young people, but VERY few, and there are a lot of +60 guys. For this average age of 60+ group, saying that learning all these skills will help them in their future (?) may not be enough reason to keep this dated rule in place. I don't think the 60+ crowd is really the future of our country. Plus, we are pretty set in our ways by now. If I have not learned a good work ethic, and problem solving by now, I probably won't learn it in time for it to do me any good in this life time!  LL~

I know there are still two other reasons put forward for keeping the BOM rule. I was only addressing the one you brought up.

I do hope that you, and the other master builders all understand that we admire and appreciate the beauty of your work. I have never met anyone who is not in awe of the amount of time and effort you guys put into your works of Art. This discussion is not intended to lessen the appreciation of your artistic efforts. The Master builders we have now will always continue to build their masterpieces, no matter what the rules say, and we will always appreciate that.  y1

Regards,  H^^
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 11:24:47 AM by Rudy Taube »
Rudy
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #71 on: April 22, 2008, 07:35:21 AM »
Well said Rudy,

If anyone thinks eliminating or changing the BOM rule will result in a field full of ARF Noblers just look at any FAI contest photos. The Stunt Ships you will see are not much different than what you see at the NATS. Builders still build and they have never had a BOM rule.

Offline SteveMoon

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #72 on: April 22, 2008, 07:58:17 AM »
Bob R: You are exactly right! I attended the 2004 WCs in Muncie,
and what I saw were a bunch of beautifully built planes from all
over the world. (Speaking of 'all over the world' I highly doubt that
over half of the CL stunt fights flown each year are flown here in
the US, as some who post on SSW who would have you believe.
There are many competitors the world over.) The French, Japanese,
Czech, Chinese, etc planes were beautiful. And, in almost all cases
the pilot had built his own plane.

The pilots who were flying the Russian and Ukranian take-apart planes
were those who had developed them. Builders will always build. That's
just the way it is. Bob you have succintly presented the best reason
for the elimination of BOM and appearance points. And, this is without
even getting into the quagmire of trying to enforce a BOM rule in this
day and age. This is the main problem I have with Marvin's proposal.
It's just too darn complicated. There will be way too many gray areas
that will crop up over time.

I have advocated or several years now elimination of BOM and the
awarding of a concourse trophy for those that build their own planes,
and I still believe it is the best way to go forward.

Sidenote: Speaking of the '04 WCs; another thing dawned on me
while I was there: I had been lied to for years! For years and years
all I had heard was how the US team could never win because of a
'bias' against the US team. All I had heard was how poor many of the
other competitors from around the world flew, and how some of
'their' best couldn't even win Advanced at the US Nats. Hogwash!!!!!
Those guys can fly! I was astounded by the quality of flying from
around the world. I remember standing with John G, Brad Walker, and
Jose M and watching several flights and it dawned on all of us that
the propaganda machine had been blowing smoke up our a**** all
those years. It was a truly eye-opening experience.

Later, Steve

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #73 on: April 22, 2008, 09:57:56 AM »
Steve,

"Melodrama is the battle between right and wrong. Tragedy is the battle between right and right"
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Offline Michael Floerchinger

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #74 on: April 22, 2008, 10:54:14 AM »
I voted to keep BOM, but only because I am old school, I like building, I like flying, the only way I knew to adjust was to build again, different and better. From my point of view it is where everything in life is heading today, immediate gratification, I want it now. For me, for my son and now my grandson it was/is a good lesson in patience, on taking your time in doing something right, striving for the next model to be a little better. I know that this method has helped me all thru my life, patience, working hard to get it right. I was not the best builder but I always tried my best. Not that I did not have any ARFs, but when I flew those planes it just did not seem the same when I flew my own build or design. I do not think the sport will die out, there will be slow periods, I have seen them, I can remember flying at Buder Park by my self. I can also remember a surge in interest and having to wait in line to fly.

Mike

Offline Rudy Taube

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #75 on: April 22, 2008, 05:51:30 PM »
Steve,

"Melodrama is the battle between right and wrong. Tragedy is the battle between right and right"
---Steven Lassiter


Well done Randy!  H^^
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Offline bbaker

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #76 on: April 22, 2008, 06:01:35 PM »
what if you had an arf that was crashed then rebuilt but only the ribs are the only part that was re-used everything else was replaced
what would that be considered?

Offline Bill Little

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #77 on: April 22, 2008, 06:50:10 PM »
I don't remember what, if anything I have posted to this thread, and since it's now 3 pages long, I don't have the time right now to go back and look (read that: "I'm lazy tonight"! LOL!!)

I strongly believe that Dennis Adamisin wrote a very important opinion that many still do share.  "IT'S NOT JUST FLYING EVENT, never has been."  PAMPA wrote a set of rules years ago that allowed for ARFS, ARCS, bought planes, borrowed, planes, and even stolen planes (I guess!).  You can fly all you want, you just don't get AP.  That is fair TO EVERYONE! It is fair in that it DOES ALLOW the person who cannot build (for whatever reason), and it is FAIR to the person WHO DOES BUILD!  A part of the definition of *MODELER* as I understand it.

If you desire to be the WALKER TROPHY WINNER, then whay not do what is required.  Simple as that.  Maybe this doesn't realte to golf and other sports, but I am not going to win the MASTERS.  Why?  Because I do not have the time to practice, nor do I have the desire to take that time, to become consistent enough to play at that level.  Anyway, I am too old now to have ENOUGH time left to get that proficient.  Maybe when I was a Head Professional at a Club over 30 years ago, I *might* would have had a chance (LOL!!).  So, I know/knew what it would take.  My desire was just not that strong.  I did have that strong of a desire to play football on Sundays and on TV (NFL).  I got that chance, but due to injuries, didn't make it.  So be it.  IF I had that same BURNING DESIRE to be the WALKER TROPHY WINNER, I know what it would take.  It is well known, so what's the problem?  We have to pay a price to achieve something worthwhile.  Maybe THAT is what's missing..... ??? I was raised by Grandparents.  A MUCH older generation that my friend's parents.  I learned at a fairly early age that my values were different from my friends.  And since I became a teacher/coach, even though I have had a good bit of success, I have noticed that the desire to expend large amounts of energy to achieve a goal is becoming less and less prevalent.  So, I can see where the whole drop the BOM has merit in a LOT of people's minds.  It is one less hurdle to overcome.

I digress........ so,on the topic of ARF/ARC models, I have no problem, per se.  It will help people get into the hobby, come back to the hobby, and help people who WANT to compete get better, quicker.  That is good!  We need all the people we can get in this hobby.  Doug said that the end of C/L might come because WE are going through the natural cycle of life, which, of course, ends with death.

So, my position?? Let ARFs/ARCs fly, (the AMA even allows it to a degree at the NATS!) but do it under the PAMPA rules.  No build, no AP.  As far as lazy, I don't believe that is a factor, really.  I believe it is more a matter of available time as many have said.  But if the person with *no time*, starts a kit and spends just a bare minimum of time, he/she will finish that plane in a year or so.  Then they have a BOM/AP model.  If that person wants to win bad enough, they CAN do that.  Let them fly ARFs/ARCS until they are proficient, and keeping them out of the asphalt, then they can enter an age group class at the NATS (or Advanced, a recognized event there) and be in compliance.  One a year and in a few years they will have at least a back up.  :)  (Hey, I found time when I WAS a PGA pro to hit 500 balls a day and play at least 9 holes.) 

I had a good friend tell me one time when I was hard up for building time: Get up a *little* earlier, and go to bed a *little* later.  Harder to do at my age now, but no sweat when I was in my 30's-40's. 

We can all find an excuse, and actually some legitimate REASONS, but we can also find a way to *get 'er done*.

In closing (and you thought it would NEVER end! LOL!!).... I have no problem with ARFs/ARCs, just leave the rules alone and live with them!

Bill Little
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Offline De Hill

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #78 on: April 22, 2008, 07:34:03 PM »


"IT'S NOT JUST FLYING EVENT, never has been." 

Wrong.

Roy Mayes (who founded W.A.M.) Wrote new rules which included appearance points in 1947. He was successful in persuading the AMA to adopt the rules in 1948.

It was just a flying event prior to 1948.
De Hill

Offline Trostle

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #79 on: April 22, 2008, 08:56:16 PM »

"IT'S NOT JUST FLYING EVENT, never has been." 

Wrong.

Roy Mayes (who founded W.A.M.) Wrote new rules which included appearance points in 1947. He was successful in persuading the AMA to adopt the rules in 1948.

It was just a flying event prior to 1948.

It was not called Precision Aerobatics prior to 1948 either.  So, soes it mean anything that our event has NOT been only a flying event for 60 years?  That is longer than many of us can remember.  At least longer than when most of us would read or care about rulebooks.  Or, in other words, it has been a modeling event, not just a flying event for 60 years.  In my opinion, that is significant.

Keith Trostle

Offline De Hill

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #80 on: April 22, 2008, 09:43:44 PM »

It was not called Precision Aerobatics prior to 1948 either.  So, soes it mean anything that our event has NOT been only a flying event for 60 years?  That is longer than many of us can remember.  At least longer than when most of us would read or care about rulebooks.  Or, in other words, it has been a modeling event, not just a flying event for 60 years.  In my opinion, that is significant.

Keith Trostle

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

" IT"S NOT JUST FLYING EVENT, never has been." 

It hasn't been just a flying event for 60 years, that is true;
but the word NEVER is what is incorrect in the above statement.

De Hill
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #81 on: April 22, 2008, 10:52:24 PM »
De,

Well, it evolved. I suppose it could devolve, too.
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #82 on: April 23, 2008, 08:33:34 AM »
De how much of an issue do you think ARFs were in 1948? hmmm I kinda doubt that it was even a consideration whatcha think? from what I understand inverted flight was pretty much a cool times ten trick,, so yeah, I think the statement is still valid,, its a MODELERS event and always has been.
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline Robert Schroeder

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #83 on: April 23, 2008, 08:46:57 AM »
Granted, I'm too late to vote, however I can still reply so here goes.  
I'm what is called a retread. I flew in my first Nats in '07.  The main reason I am a retread is because I was unable to find anyone with whom to fly in most of the places I lived (retired Army).  While in St. Louis I was trying to build but unable to get anything completed prior to being transfered to Columbus, Oh.  I was still unable to find anyone with whom to fly.  I moved to Northwest Ohio, returned to Columbus to visit friends, went to a hobby shop and found a control line club there.  I was quite upset.  3.5 hours driving time is too long to go fly.  I have never grally given up the hobby.  I've always had a building table of at least a piece of plywood.  That was the first thing I did in any house into which I moved, even though I was unable to get much accomplished.  

When I started flying in the 50s Models HAD to be built.  I went to contests and wondered how anyone could tell if the flyer built the model.  The adults weren't talking, however all the kids, I knew, that flew in the contests built their own models.  I had a friend who had a father who built all his planes, but he never entered a contest.  At any rate, fast foreward to the present.  I still have no idea as to who built which model.  Those of you who "know" know who built which plane.  However, you fly in expert:  I fly in beginner.

I now, at least when my DOT physical allows me to drive, drive a truck for a living.  It is extremely hard to build a plane in the sleeper of a big truck.  Therefore I bought an ARF last year at Toledo.  All my planes were crashed and I needed something to fly quickly.  The ARF is still in the box.  I bought an RTF from a friend to fly for the contest season which I crashed at the Nats.  That's repaired and I now have others that are almost ready to fly.  My workshop, which takes up room for 3 cars in the garage is finally finished, and I am able to build without being too cramped.  I am not and probably will never be an expert builder , finisher or flyer.  There is TOO little time.  I was unable to fly after the Nats and still haven't flown this year.

When we took on 6 foster kids (a family) flying was out of the question.  When I was married to my ex, money was out of the question.  With most of the jobs I've had, time was pretty well out of the question.  

This all begs the question; should I be for the BOM or not?  Actually, I'm for the BOM.  I am inherently instilled with the mindset that to compete means that I must have done everything from buying the kit or wood up to the point where I fly MY creation.  Where I fly, I'm not subject to the BOM.  When offered a plane to fly, I was appalled that I would be able to enter a contest with a plane I didn't build (I guess that shows the last time I flew in a stunt contest).  This was while I was still trying to learn the beginner pattern, so, no I had not yet read the rule book.

I guess where I'm trying to go with this missive, is that I'm old school and therefore believe in the BOM rule.  Many who came after me are new school or have dropped those thoughts for whatever reason.  I seriously doubt I'll ever get to the expert level.  If I do, I will have built the plane.  If the BOM is still in effect I still will have built the plane.  

Opinions are like ********.  Everyone has one, even me.  I'll do whatever, just to fly and compete.  The politics are beyond me.
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Offline De Hill

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #84 on: April 23, 2008, 01:12:16 PM »

De how much of an issue do you think ARFs were in 1948? hmmm I kinda doubt that it was even a consideration whatcha think? from what I understand inverted flight was pretty much a cool times ten trick,, so yeah, I think the statement is still valid,, its a MODELERS event and always has been.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I take it that you don't believe that stunt existed prior to the 1948 Nats and the beginning of appearance points. Francis Reynolds, Roy Mayes, Bob Palmer, JC Yates, Bud Jamison, Hal Debolt, David Slagle, Leon Schulman, Jim Saftig, and Bob Tucker would be surprised to learn that they weren't stunt fliers!

As for ARF's I didn't mention them.

De Hill
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Offline Trostle

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #85 on: April 23, 2008, 02:27:55 PM »
De

Since we are playing with words, I have the following observations which are about as important as an eyelash on a gnat.  But here it goes any way.

By the record you present, appearance points were introduced in 1948 into what at one time was called something like the control line stunt event.  Sometime between the mid/late 40's and 1952, but I think after provisions for appearance points were introduced into the rulebook, the name of the event was changed to Control Line Precision Aerobatics.  At least the 1952 rulebook which we use as our reference pattern for Old Time Stunt listed the event as Control Line Precision Aerobatics and it includes provision for appearance points which evidently was a carry over from 1948 when appearance points were introduced into the event.  So, if appearance points were introduced in 1948 and the name of the event was changed later from control line stunt (or whatever it was called in those days) to Control Line Precision Aerobatics (CLPA), that means that our CLPA event has always been a modeler's event and NEVER has been a flying only event.  I think it is still safe to say that during the modeling careers of any active stunt flier today and in the terms as discussed here, our CLPA event has NEVER been a flying only event.

Like I suggested above, this is just another unimportant way to look at the words that are being thrown around here. 

The following is not addressed to any of De Hill's comments as above.

What I think is significant is that most surveys that I have seen, however poorly or how well these surveys have been conducted on this forum, perhaps other forums, and questionnaires that have been conducted over the years through PAMPA, there has been a majority of responses that favor keeping the BOM/Appearance Pints provisions in our rulebook.  And that majority has not been by only a few percentage points.  In fact, in the world of surveys, that majority has usually been significant.  This, in spite of the very vocal groups or segments around the country that are adamantly against the BOM/Appearance Points provisions in our rulebook who, in my opinion, are more prone to respond to these surveys than those who do favor the status quo.

This fact, together with the fact that any contest can be run with or without BOM/Appearance Points (except for the age categories at the Nats) is good cause for the Control Line Aerobatics Contest Board to NOT accept any rules change proposal that eliminates the BOM/Appearance Points from our rulebook.

Keith

Offline catdaddy

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #86 on: April 23, 2008, 03:41:35 PM »

 the name of the event was changed to Control Line Precision Aerobatics. 
Keith

Wonder why they didn't rename it Control Line Precision Aerobatics Modelling? Maybe you can get that changed.
regards,
Rick"catdaddy"Blankenship

Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #87 on: April 23, 2008, 05:28:20 PM »
Wonder why they didn't rename it Control Line Precision Aerobatics Modelling? Maybe you can get that changed.

Rick
No name change required.  It helps me to keep it in perspective by treating "Appearance" as the the first manuver in the Precision Aerobatics event- and everything falls into place nicely.  Unfortunately "Appearance" is my toughest "manuver", so I try hard not to let it hurt me and to make up for my shortfalls with everything else that follows.

Robert Schroeder:  H^^
I see that this was just your second post here so WELCOME to StuntHanger.  Sparky and his moderators keep a pretty durned good forum.  A word of caution though, this place can become habit forming (check out my psts in just about 1 year) and cause you to lose building and flying time!  Coming back from your time away, you helped confirm what I said that it used to be BOM: no build - no fly!

De
Thank you for the correction.  That appearance points pre-dates even a lot of OTS designs is significant.  That appeance points pre-date my time on the planet by 6 years means I should have been more careful about saying "always" & "never".  I am prone to exageration.  b1   LL~

There was a quote from 1948 (Carl Wheeley?) from when the appearance points were first adopted; that quote was shown in this forum last year some time - to the effect that appearance points were being added to improve the models being flown in the Stunt event (whatever name was in place then!)  Do you recall seeing that?  Anyhow I believe that quote was significant because it seemed to say that the event was evolving into something MORE than it had been.

Like I said in my (too long!) post before I am concerned at how we will manage to balance the advancing technology with traditional BOM concepts.  "Moldies" are here to stay.  With moldies come big enablers in finishes and easy shine.  I think we are going to have to evolve apperance points into things that are harder to buy: creativity, individuality and "signature" designs that excite - just like we have in Classic era birds. 

I  keep coming back to restoring Originality and Realism to the appearance menu; these are the areas where creativity (original designs) and customization of kits, pre-fabs & moldies  can be encouraged, acknowlegded and rewarded.
Denny Adamisin
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Offline Dick Fowler

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #88 on: April 23, 2008, 06:40:31 PM »
what if you had an arf that was crashed then rebuilt but only the ribs are the only part that was re-used everything else was replaced
what would that be considered?

A really, really, really bad crash!
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Offline Dick Fowler

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #89 on: April 23, 2008, 06:42:10 PM »
what if you had an arf that was crashed then rebuilt but only the ribs are the only part that was re-used everything else was replaced
what would that be considered?

A really, really, really bad crash!
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Offline De Hill

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #90 on: April 23, 2008, 06:54:15 PM »
[
Since we are playing with words, I have the following observations which are about as important as an eyelash on a gnat.  But here it goes any way.

By the record you present, appearance points were introduced in 1948 into what at one time was called something like the control line stunt event.  Sometime between the mid/late 40's and 1952, but I think after provisions for appearance points were introduced into the rulebook, the name of the event was changed to Control Line Precision Aerobatics.  At least the 1952 rulebook which we use as our reference pattern for Old Time Stunt listed the event as Control Line Precision Aerobatics and it includes provision for appearance points which evidently was a carry over from 1948 when appearance points were introduced into the event.  So, if appearance points were introduced in 1948 and the name of the event was changed later from control line stunt (or whatever it was called in those days) to Control Line Precision Aerobatics (CLPA), that means that our CLPA event has always been a modeler's event and NEVER has been a flying only event.  I think it is still safe to say that during the modeling careers of any active stunt flier today and in the terms as discussed here, our CLPA event has NEVER been a flying only event.

Like I suggested above, this is just another unimportant way to look at the words that are being thrown around here. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK Keith,

I think we have agreed to split hairs.  CLPA is STUNT. Ain't no difference; none. They are two titles that mean the same thing; " A Rose by any other name is still a Rose".

The PAMPA newsletter ( or magazine if you prefer) is named " Stunt News". It is about all things pertaining to Precision Aerobatics (which is Stunt.)

Now I'll get down off my soapbox.

De Hill
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #91 on: April 23, 2008, 09:18:02 PM »
FWIW, here are a few facts that may or may not help illuminate the subject.

The earliest set of rules in my collection are from 1949.  The following information is taken verbatim from those rules.  I don't at this time have anything earlier so will plead ignorance about what preceded the following.

Under the title, which reads "CONTROL LINE PRECISION ACROBATIC REGULATIONS"  the first paragraph reads:

"These Regulations were drawn up by the Control Line Acrobatic Rules Committee, Roy E. Mayes, Chairman (emphasis my own) and shall continue in their recommended status until further announcement by the AMA Contest Board."

This states clearly that Roy was the chairman of an AMA Committee, not a WAM infiltrator as suggested earlier.

"APPEARANCE.  Models shall be judged for appearance complete and ready to fly, including all equipment and attachments to be used in the accumulation of flight points.  Graded scoring between one and ten points shall be used depending upon the degree of excellence of realism, workmanship and finish.  No more than four points shall be given for any of these three items, and all contestants shall received at leas a one point total.  The points so obtained shall then be multiplied by eight to obtain appearance points, which will therefore range from a minimum of of eight to a maximum of 80.  The resulting appearance points are to be added to the contestant's flight points for scoring purposes."

This, of course, proves nothing re the original "stunt" event with whose actual birth date and DNA I'm unfamiliar.  I do, however, subscribe to the irrefutable logic that with at least 60 years as the single most successful and long lived "fly by wire" event on the planet tends to suggest that -- like classic Coke -- the formula should only be changed with great trepidation.

Ted Fancher

Offline Dick Fowler

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2008, 05:33:27 AM »
I would have thought the "trepidation" should have set in before the latest 'interpretation" became the rule. We are all currently drinking the "new Coke"... and it ain't the same.
Dick Fowler AMA 144077
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2008, 09:05:47 AM »

"IT'S NOT JUST FLYING EVENT, never has been." 

Wrong.

Roy Mayes (who founded W.A.M.) Wrote new rules which included appearance points in 1947. He was successful in persuading the AMA to adopt the rules in 1948.

It was just a flying event prior to 1948.

Hi De,

When I quoted Dennis Adamisin, I considered the *fact* that *STUNT* (the early event) was not the same event we have been flying for 60 years.  In the beginning THAT event didn't have a pattern that I am AWARE of.  CLPA, as Keith pointed out, is the event WE are talking about, and it, AFAIK, has NEVER (same word again! LOL!!) been just a flying event.  *We* can (and it seems always DO) argue over a gnat's eyelash of semantics.  Stunt and CLPA are not the same.  *Stunt* is what I did when I was 12-13 years old and just burning out tanks of fuel.  PAMPA's newsletter IS *Stunt* News, but I am guessing the generic term was used instead of Control Line Precision Aerobatics News as that is somewhat cumbersome. ;D

I will gladly retract my comment (and inform Mr. Adamisin of our inaccuracies) WHEN and IF it can be PROVEN otherwise.  I could not give an obese rodent's posterior what was done before OUR EVENT was established.  Nothing personal, but splitting hairs (especially when another EVENT is referenced) is not my cup of tea.  CLPA, the *320's* events (IIRC) in the books, have ALWAYS been BOM/AP events. 

Again, if I am proven wrong, I will gladly apologize. ;D
Bill Little

P.S. I didn't read Ted's answer before I posted, but I do not see anything in his post which contradicts my quotation and subsequent opinion here.
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2008, 11:25:54 AM »
I would have thought the "trepidation" should have set in before the latest 'interpretation" became the rule. We are all currently drinking the "new Coke"... and it ain't the same.

Strangely enough, Dick, although I doubt you intended to, you prove my point.

Ted

Offline Chuck Feldman

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #95 on: April 24, 2008, 12:37:06 PM »
Dare I make a comment in this thread? Yes I will.  It seems to me that we need something to chew on or we are not happy. Well the AP and BOM rag has been chewed on now for years. It must be a terribly tough rag. Seems to me that back in the old days no one cared about BOM. Of course there where no ARFS to buy then either. In 1978 I managed to make to the nationals in Lake Charles. The rag being chewed at that time was SEEDING! Hot Item back then. Maybe we should chew that rag again? But Back in 1978 I flew a Gieski Nobler that I built. I used the following bought part. A Bob hunt foam wing. A friend of mine painted the model for me with K&B epoxy paint. I did not fly well then as now so I did not advance. Oh there where no classes then we all flew in OPEN. There where lots of nice planes. We all exchanged what are ships where. The whole thing was very open about vendor supplied parts etc. In short no one cared. Everyone who set there model down for judging was awarded some points. I do not know how many entered the event back then but based on the debating going on today there must be a lot more Stunt Fliers than there used to be. Think about it. Those of you who know the numbers can quote them. Add up all the classes and throw that number into open like it was in 1978. So I think it is safe to say that at the Nats we have the elite and want to be elite competing in the OPEN Event. It is very tough to get to the top. I am sure that there have been years when the AP have decided the outcome of the event because the flight scores are so close. What is a shame is that it is entirely possible that the best flier with the best flying model may not win. Kind of like some other sports. Say NFL football. The best team overall loses a playoff game and they are out. Yep they call it the big leagues. In closing I think we could have a better sport with out all this debate. It is now 2008. The world has changed. We do not need the AP any longer. May I add this. Our sport emulates the real world of acrobatic competition. They do not require the pilot to build there own plane. Matter of fact most of the planes are flown by pilots who are hired to fly them.

Chuck Feldman

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Offline RC Storick

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #96 on: April 24, 2008, 01:55:50 PM »
Quote
Yep they call it the big leagues. In closing I think we could have a better sport with out all this debate. It is now 2008. The world has changed. We do not need the AP any longer. May I add this. Our sport emulates the real world of acrobatic competition. They do not require the pilot to build there own plane. Matter of fact most of the planes are flown by pilots who are hired to fly them.
I would give up AP if Paul W. or Billy W. would fly my planes. However each plane is purpose built for each pilots specs. If you were a builder you would understand this debate. Everyone needs to get  paid for their efforts!
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Offline Rudy Taube

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #97 on: April 24, 2008, 04:15:40 PM »
Hi Chuck,

Thank you for the interesting historical perspective in your excellent post.

The main reason I am putting energy into this topic is: as an active CD I would like to have the rules as clear as possible. My guess is that other CDs share this desire. Rules should never be left up to just one person's (CD) "personal" feelings, and that is what we have now. We need to have a CLEAR BOM rule with some form of enforcement (building photos?, DNA tests?, owners finger prints on the balsa, Or? ;-), or we need to join the rest of the world and have more fun and less stress. (at least less stress for the CDs?) 

If our society had ZERO technical progress since 1952 then we would have less of a BOM problem, and it probably would not be such a heated issue today. We would just keep on building our blocks of balsa with blue ink lines on the places where we had to cut out the parts, and use hallucinogenic chemicals to hold them together, etc. Now THAT'S closer to true BOM!  n~

As you pointed out, we have had progress since 1952. This progress; fully sheeted foam wings, modular parts, plug and play control systems, others finishing and painting the plane, completed planes for sale by pro builders, etc.,etc. has been quietly absorbed by the CLPA community by simply ignoring the obvious breaking (or, extreme bending if you prefer? ;-) of the rules.

We now have a rule in place that address most of the above progress, and makes much of this progress now legal. My point is that we need to make the rules clearer, or at least agree uniformly nation wide on how they will be applied? This will allow us to deal with all the new progress being made now and in the near future. We are about to see the 1st wave of 2nd and 3rd generation ARCs and ARFs. How will we deal with these excellent planes this year and in the next few years?

Our present rule is in effect until Jan 1, 2011. There will be many new developments in CLPA planes before then. We don't even seem to be in agreement on how to deal fairly and uniformly with the new planes we have now. The Moon's excellent new, high quality, Modular Nobler is a case in point. Some are already saying it may not be eligible for AP because it comes with a thin clear film covering THAT STILLL NEEDS PAINTING AND FINISHING, just because the parts have a covering on them when they come out of the box. In fact, the recommended method of finishing is to cover the whole plane with silkspan before final painting. How this is any different than a fully balsa COVERED wing that we have accepted for years, is beyond me. The spirit of the new rules are clear, but the "letter" of the rule is not. How many more innovations are we going to reject in the name of TRADITION?

As an active CD this puts me, and other CDs in a difficult position. I just talked to a good friend in the NE and he said they are very flexible re: the BOM and are just glad that more people are coming out to fly. Some other areas of the country have abandoned the BOM/AP all together. As this trend spreads, it will make it increasingly difficult for CDs of contests between these areas to interpert the rules unless they become more clear, and uniform.

 With rare exception this thread Robert started has been a very polite and helpful discussion of this important topic. I hope it will continue in the same pleasent manner.

Again, thank you for your excellent post, I enjoyed it. Your points are well taken.

ROBERT

I agree with you about rewarding hard work, and I think most other's agree with you too. That is why more contests (like ours this weekend, 3) are including concourse awards for the best "LOOKING" planes. This may become the best of both worlds in the future? BTW, the concourse trophy won by Larry Fernandez (beautiful plane!) at the Golden State Champs was as large, maybe larger, than Brett's beautiful 1st place flying trophy.

FFT: If we really want to give "bonus" points for hard work to add to the flying points, it would be only fair (and helpful to CDs ;-) to also give "bonus" points to those pilots who work hard at contests by helping to judge, CD, or help run a line, etc. ? This would be FAIR and may encourage more people to help out? ... Just a thought.

Regards,  H^^
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 07:17:04 PM by Rudy Taube »
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #98 on: April 24, 2008, 04:43:28 PM »
Reading this last post of this thread, it hit me.  Why not do like the Radio Control Fraternity on some of their events, mainly scale.  No flying points.  No appearance points.  You fly when you want to.  Oh, they give away trophies at these fly ins.  Best military,  best civilian, Pilot's choice, CD's choice,  worst crash and this goes on and on.  No worry about judges or score sheets.  The main requirement other than AMA license, entry fee is that you have to fly the model to qualify for any awards.  There is a fun contest going to happen back east I beleive that promotes fun flying, according to ad in CLW(Control Line World).  DOC Holliday
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: informal survey about appearance points Last day to vote! (Poll)
« Reply #99 on: April 25, 2008, 07:55:26 AM »
Hi Doc,

Fun Flys are FUN!

But that doesn't address our attempting to find the National Champion one time a year.  Maybe we need a qualifications system to be able to fly in Open at the NATS, kinda like getting into the MASTERS Golf Tournament or making the FAI team. ???

A lot of that last point is in jest, of course, but who knows??  Of course, to be *Democratic*, we could hold an official voting each year at the NATS to see if the BOM/AP stays in place for the next year's NATS.  Hold it each year, maybe one year it gets voted down for the next, but then reinstated for the NEXT year.  After all, that is where it really matters.  The guys to whom it matters would decide what THEY need to do!  I do not see a preponderance of evidence that even equates to the everyday/local contest flier.  CLPA sorta governs itself, and I do not believe the AMA would object to the contestants being in charge of that aspect.   It makes MUCH MORE SENSE to let the ones it affects make the decision.  OK, so call me crazy.......

Bill <><
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