Indoor electric control line

[Mike Griffin]

I am posting this video simply to illustrate what I am looking for.  Does anyone in the United States specialize in making these or the kits for these with the electric system to power them.  I think, I might, get my grandchildren interested in this if there is a good source for them.
I know absolutely nothing about these indoor foamies but thinking of a gateway to get some kids interested.  Any information would be appreciated. 

Thank you
Mike

[Larry Renger]

On Friday the Knights of the Round Circle trained about 100 (yes that is the correct number of zeros) kids at the Imaginology event. We were flying ET-1 models on 22' Spectra lines. We use a cheap Hobby King radio to run the throttle so the kid only gets about 7 laps. They still stagger away from the center of the circle.

The ET-1 basic part kit is available from rsmdistribution.com for $20. You are on your own for hardware, power and control. We fly these models at several indoor and outdoor venues in the course of the year, and they have been adopted for the AMA Expo East.

Construction is from old political signs, and probably the best use of the material ever. 

[Mike Griffin]

Larry I had no idea that Eric had these chloroplast kits.  Thank you for letting me know.  I will contact him.

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

Just an FYI, flying that slow WILL make you dizzy.

Walter, if someone taps me on the shoulder and I turn around, I get dizzy.  LOL...

Mike

[Tim Wescott]

I have built & flown one of Larry's ET1 trainers.  They are an absolutely great primary trainer -- with emphasis on the primary.  They're very good for going around in circles, but by design the most advanced aerobatics you should contemplate with them is modest climbs and dives.

If you want to stunt, then build something more like the indoor planes that Igor Burger is involved in.

[CircuitFlyer]

Hey Mike,

I built and flew a copy of Igor's Indoor Gee Bee a couple of years back.  Great fun, great design.  Does anyone sell a kit on this side of the pond? - no.  Does anyone offer a turn key power system? - no.  You have to put it all together yourself.  There are several good build articles on Stunt Hangar.  I made my own plans for the foam parts I can share with you if interested.  Unfortunately, the North American supply of depron has dried up.  If you can get your hands on some 3mm depron sheets, l'll glady help you with finding a source of the other bits.

Paul

[Dave_Trible]

This is really intriguing for us here in the midlands where we sit on our fannies six months or more each year waiting for flying weather.  The FF group in the area fly indoor almost year round in two or three good venues.  I knew those ion burners had to be good for something!

Dave

[Tim Wescott]

This is really intriguing for us here in the midlands where we sit on our fannies six months or more each year waiting for flying weather.  The FF group in the area fly indoor almost year round in two or three good venues.  I knew those ion burners had to be good for something!

Dave

That's exactly why Igor started doing it in the midlands of Europe.  I wish I had a setup for that myself, given that it's been solid rain here since January, with a one-day break yesterday for a contest.

[Larry Renger]

I have built & flown one of Larry's ET1 trainers.  They are an absolutely great primary trainer -- with emphasis on the primary.  They're very good for going around in circles, but by design the most advanced aerobatics you should contemplate with them is modest climbs and dives.

If we are flying on short (15 ft) lines we add thin aluminum flaps to the wings and a “kicker” to correct the trim on the elevator. Scotch double stick tapes makes the conversion easy and reversible.

I am told someone actually did a figure eight, then changed his pants. 

[Tim Wescott]

I am told someone actually did a figure eight, then changed his pants. 

A loop takes about 80 degrees (so, almost a wingover, sort of).  Then you recover inverted, groove along a couple of laps, and say "oh crap, now what?"

[Skip Chernoff]

Very cool stuff!

[John Rist]

Back to the original question.  Does Igor have a web sight where one can buy his products?  Does anyone in the USA kit indoor models like Igor's Indoor Gee Bee?  I read of plans for Igor's Indoor Gee Bee.  Where can I get same? 

[Brent Williams]

 https://stunthanger.com/smf/cad-users/gee-bee-project-autodesk/

[Mike Griffin]

Back to the original question.  Does Igor have a web sight where one can buy his products?  Does anyone in the USA kit indoor models like Igor's Indoor Gee Bee?  I read of plans for Igor's Indoor Gee Bee.  Where can I get same? 

Thank you John, this was what I was trying to find out.  If there was a kit of these available within the United States, I think they would sell.  I have not been able to find any offering as of yet.  Igor does brilliant work with models but something like this is not readily available as far as I can tell within the USA.  A kit with the correct electric plug and play power system would make a nice package.

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

Hey Mike,

I built and flew a copy of Igor's Indoor Gee Bee a couple of years back.  Great fun, great design.  Does anyone sell a kit on this side of the pond? - no.  Does anyone offer a turn key power system? - no.  You have to put it all together yourself.  There are several good build articles on Stunt Hangar.  I made my own plans for the foam parts I can share with you if interested.  Unfortunately, the North American supply of depron has dried up.  If you can get your hands on some 3mm depron sheets, l'll glady help you with finding a source of the other bits.

Paul

Thank you Paul for this information.  I think there is an opportunity here.  If you have plans I would love a copy of them if It is not too much trouble.   I do not know what Depron is but I am guessing that it is the type of foam that the model is made out of.  I will see what I can find.

Mike

Mike

[Brent Williams]

Plans link:  https://www.rcportal.sk/indoor-gee-bee-am9218

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http://maxbee.net/download/geebee_cl.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3nLI9wPAYqQH1NgDVcJ8eb1p4w8jHEkfLZYaVtosK3GSuP4aXmBI88hjs&h=AT1z0RU-6q_QDFpX7wsVVic0CPQaUMs0-0qietN_AVyilXrQloSzsIBQaSqIOhKhJ98xsl5dDM6CFAA0avggRI0Hy7zFzXU5QIfvLTCP96PlZ2UBDTgvcazI69szfoz_Wg

[Tim Wescott]

Thank you Paul for this information.  I think there is an opportunity here.  If you have plans I would love a copy of them if It is not too much trouble.   I do not know what Depron is but I am guessing that it is the type of foam that the model is made out of.  I will see what I can find.

Mike

Mike

It's polystyrene foam, similar to meat trays, but flat.  It's sold in Europe as a construction material, but doesn't meet fire code here.

I found this link: https://hobbyking.com/en_us/aero-modelling-foam-board-3mm-x-500mm-x-1000mm-white.html

[Dennis Leonhardi]

If we are flying on short (15 ft) lines we add thin aluminum flaps to the wings and a “kicker” to correct the trim on the elevator. Scotch double stick tapes makes the conversion easy and reversible.

I am told someone actually did a figure eight, then changed his pants. 

Is that because the figure eight took pretty much a day to complete, and it was time for his daily "constitutional"? 

Impressive stuff, Larry!


Dennis

[CircuitFlyer]

FWIW here is my plans for the foam parts.  Two versions of the same plan, one large ANSI "E" size sheet (34" x 44") and also a tiled version you can print at home on 8-1/2 x 11 letter size paper and tape together.  These are based on Crist Rigotti's plans.  I tweeked them a little in a CAD program.  They are made for 3mm thick Depron.  eBay has some sellers in the UK that can provide Depron sheets for about $7-$8 a sheet (including shipping costs), not crazy expensive, as it may only take 2-3 sheets depending on sheet size.  See all of the build logs on here for the carbon fiber reinforcements required.  I used epoxy to assemble, some folks swear by CA.

I made the mechanical bits on a 3D printer at the local library (how cool is that!).  If you want my CAD files let me know.  Eric Rule can provide a low RPM version of a KR Governor Timer that works perfect, or buy Igors indoor active timer set-up.  Search the build logs here for suggested motors, batteries and props.  I used 5 meter or 16' Spectra lines.



Paul

[dave siegler]

 our club builds them to fly at public events like maker fair. 

Depron isn't available un the US anymore.  and the replacement is foam board from dolar tree with the paper removed
It is NOT as good as depron but it will do. 

The models in this video were poorly trimmed and could only fly level. 

The hellcat is a new model built by a club member.  We used a RC car tx on it. 

[Paul Wescott]

45 Seconds of ET-1 flight indoors.  Great for insomnia even though it’s my daughter (biased opinion) with Larry Renger (also biased opinion) walking behind her...

[Paul Wescott]

2m:45s - Larry Renger doing the pattern indoors with an electric Baby Pathfinder (Launch Credit: Andy Borgogna)

[Mike Griffin]

FWIW here is my plans for the foam parts.  Two versions of the same plan, one large ANSI "E" size sheet (34" x 44") and also a tiled version you can print at home on 8-1/2 x 11 letter size paper and tape together.  These are based on Crist Rigotti's plans.  I tweeked them a little in a CAD program.  They are made for 3mm thick Depron.  eBay has some sellers in the UK that can provide Depron sheets for about $7-$8 a sheet (including shipping costs), not crazy expensive, as it may only take 2-3 sheets depending on sheet size.  See all of the build logs on here for the carbon fiber reinforcements required.  I used epoxy to assemble, some folks swear by CA.

I made the mechanical bits on a 3D printer at the local library (how cool is that!).  If you want my CAD files let me know.  Eric Rule can provide a low RPM version of a KR Governor Timer that works perfect, or buy Igors indoor active timer set-up.  Search the build logs here for suggested motors, batteries and props.  I used 5 meter or 16' Spectra lines.


Thank you Paul, I really appreciate this.

Mike


Paul

[Mike Griffin]

our club builds them to fly at public events like maker fair. 

Depron isn't available un the US anymore.  and the replacement is foam board from dolar tree with the paper removed
It is NOT as good as depron but it will do. 

The models in this video were poorly trimmed and could only fly level. 

The hellcat is a new model built by a club member.  We used a RC car tx on it. 

Thank you Dave.

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

It's polystyrene foam, similar to meat trays, but flat.  It's sold in Europe as a construction material, but doesn't meet fire code here.

I found this link: https://hobbyking.com/en_us/aero-modelling-foam-board-3mm-x-500mm-x-1000mm-white.html

Thank you Tim.

Mike

[Doug Moisuk]

Igor has three levels of power packages. No kits, can’t get them made at a good price. He has some hardware parts. GeeBee Plans are on line. Takes a couple evening to make templates and cutout the parts.

I ordered some 3mm foam from Hobby King. They say it not Delron but will work. I’ll see what it’s like when it arrives.

The biggest problem is finding a 35’ ceiling if you want to do the complete pattern.

[Chuck_Smith]

There's a place called Modelplanefoam that sells really great stuff. I'll bet if you take something like a Twisted Hobbies Crack Yak and put a bellcrank in it you'd have a nice indoor model. Thing will do loops 5' in diameter.

[Mike Griffin]

I guess there is a reason that someone here (USA) has not come up with a precut kit and a plug and play Electric power system for it.  Seems like it would be a popular offering as a package.   Looks like it would be a lot of fun.

Mike

[Fredvon4]

Brodak has turn key electric 1/2a combat planes and power packages....easy to adapt to stunt IMO
So Does RSM distribution

and based  on those resources I bet a study of Hobby King will find similar systems a bit cheaper...but probably not a single integrated system.....in other words...roll your own from Hong Kong

[Mike Griffin]

I have had some discussions with Eric Rule and he feels this is doable in a package.

mike

[Brian Courtice]

Very cool. I fly indoor R/C pattern and 3D with very similar models and gear.
Our gym has kind of low ceilings but it just might be high enough to give this a go!
I'm very intrigued by the on board accelerometer that senses climbs and dives and adjusts motor RPM appropriately.
That seems like an idea that ought to work for outdoor electric control line flying too.

[john e. holliday]

I have not seen any ads for a complete package for indoor flying yet.  I would be starting from scratch like a few others and would need complete package plus charger.  I also know it would not be cheap, but what is now a days.

[Ken Culbertson]

I'm very intrigued by the on board accelerometer that senses climbs and dives and adjusts motor RPM appropriately.
That seems like an idea that ought to work for outdoor electric control line flying too.

The Fiorotti timer has that capability.

Ken

[Dwayne Donnelly]

I'm very intrigued by the on board accelerometer that senses climbs and dives and adjusts motor RPM appropriately.
That seems like an idea that ought to work for outdoor electric control line flying too.

Hi Brain, active timers are very much in use in outdoors and have won many contests including the Nats, the two that I know are Igor Burger and Fiorotti, the Fiorotti active timer is sold here at Okie  Air Models. 
https://okieair.com/shop/ols/categories/active-timer

[Mark wood]

I have not seen any ads for a complete package for indoor flying yet.  I would be starting from scratch like a few others and would need complete package plus charger.  I also know it would not be cheap, but what is now a days.

I have just finished creating a complete airframe hardware package for the Burger GeeBee kits I'm producing for our club. I don't believe an active timer is all that necessary for the indoor models but I reserve the option to drastically change my mind at any time in the future. Starting off with a Hubin FM0c and an ESC with governing mode is all you really need. I've had very good luck with the ZTW Beatless ESC's and that's what we're going with initially here.

[Brian Courtice]

Hi Brain, active timers are very much in use in outdoors and have won many contests including the Nats, the two that I know are Igor Burger and Fiorotti, the Fiorotti active timer is sold here at Okie  Air Models. 
https://okieair.com/shop/ols/categories/active-timer

Its an idea that makes so much sense.
Control line flying is so retro. People are still flying 60 yr old designs with engines that have changed little since those early days.
Kinda nice to see modern tech making a real difference. Indoor precision stunt, autonomous throttle management. Cool stuff indeed.

[Igor Burger]

Hi All,

Some years ago I collected all necessary info on my facebook page, I think it is visible also without registration (if not, tell me or ask for details):

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1130005910510845&id=363984487112995

Here you can find description of model, plan, description of cheap constant rpm setup and also high tech active timer setup. We fly those model over 10 years and all written there is well tested and debugged.

and regarding active timers - actually throttle controll makes much more sense on those indoor models. They are slowing down during climbing much more than heavy models on long lines. My GeeBee model is designed to fly on 5m lines at 5.5 to 5.2s lap times to have the same feeling like large model outside, so at that low speed it slows down really quick without throttle controll. On my video you can hear how much throttle variation it needs to fly well. It will fly also at constant speed, but be prepared either to fly much shorter lap times, or very low speed in high figures, but do not worry, it will not fall on your head anyway 



Unfortunately conditions on small indoors and large models ouside are different, so my timer for indoors has different firmware than timer for outside. Both ate prepared and tuned for their conditions, so they are not interchangeable. The same is with ESC. Good controll will need quick ESC for C/L stuff.

[Mark wood]

Control line flying is so retro. People are still flying 60 yr old designs with engines that have changed little since those early days.

Well, this should be qualified. It's true that control line models have been being flown for the better part of 80 years and some designs 60 years old and still being flown, CL has not been stagnant. The airplanes flying today are much better than those of even 20 years ago. Like me, coming back is pretty exciting to see that CL is, in fact, alive and still great fun.

[Ken Culbertson]

Well, this should be qualified. It's true that control line models have been being flown for the better part of 80 years and some designs 60 years old and still being flown, CL has not been stagnant. The airplanes flying today are much better than those of even 20 years ago. Like me, coming back is pretty exciting to see that CL is, in fact, alive and still great fun.

What he said...
Ken

[Brian Courtice]

I accept the qualification, but I stand behind my point.
Look at our current DLG gliders and competition sailplanes. Designed on computers, hollow molded from molds produced by computer controlled machines. Laid up entirely from ultra light and strong composite materials. Servos, rx's, gyros that are many generations more advanced from early r/c days, and you NEED a current design to be competitive.
Look at an FPV racing drone. Almost entirely a product of computer technology. Evolving in performance and capabilities at an almost daily pace. The only thing that they have in common with early model aviation is use of propellers.
In control line, Noblers, Ringmasters and Flight Streaks, are still popular. Cox .049's, Fox .35's and K&B .40's are still powering them. Sure, electric power, computer designed and produced parts, electronic timers, composite materials, advanced batteries, etc have modernized the sport, but control line design and technology from the 1960's to 1970's is still very much in common use to this day.
Control line IS retro.  That's a big part of it's appeal.

[CircuitFlyer]

RSM Distribution can reprogram and supply a low RPM version of the KR Governor Timer for use in indoor control line. It worked very well enough for me.

PS - Depron King has 3mm sheets available. https://www.rcdepron.com/3mm/Z2lkOi8vc2hvcGlmeS9Qcm9kdWN0LzU5NjQ1NDgyMTA4NzM=/usa

[Ken Culbertson]

I accept the qualification, but I stand behind my point.
Look at our current DLG gliders and competition sailplanes. Designed on computers, hollow molded from molds produced by computer controlled machines. Laid up entirely from ultra light and strong composite materials. Servos, rx's, gyros that are many generations more advanced from early r/c days, and you NEED a current design to be competitive.
Look at an FPV racing drone. Almost entirely a product of computer technology. Evolving in performance and capabilities at an almost daily pace. The only thing that they have in common with early model aviation is use of propellers.
In control line, Noblers, Ringmasters and Flight Streaks, are still popular. Cox .049's, Fox .35's and K&B .40's are still powering them. Sure, electric power, computer designed and produced parts, electronic timers, composite materials, advanced batteries, etc have modernized the sport, but control line design and technology from the 1960's to 1970's is still very much in common use to this day.
Control line IS retro.  That's a big part of it's appeal.

The entire purpose of control line is that the pilot builds and flies the plane directly.  In all of your examples the pilot is not hands on and is aided by very sophisticated transmitters.  AND, very importantly the planes fly in a straight line.  Relating aerodynamics to spherical geometry is not kids stuff.  There are maybe three people on this forum that even understand it (I am not one of them!).  IMHO that is the major reason that a lot of computer aided design bypasses control line.  Just because something was designed 60 years ago does not mean that it is not better or equal to something designed today.  Retro implies going backwards. (sort of like some threads on this forum the last few days )

Ken

[Dave Moritz]

If the shoe fits, wear it. Ha!

Dave Mo…

[Brian Courtice]

The entire purpose of control line is that the pilot builds and flies the plane directly.  In all of your examples the pilot is not hands on and is aided by very sophisticated transmitters.  AND, very importantly the planes fly in a straight line.  Relating aerodynamics to spherical geometry is not kids stuff.  There are maybe three people on this forum that even understand it (I am not one of them!).  IMHO that is the major reason that a lot of computer aided design bypasses control line.  Just because something was designed 60 years ago does not mean that it is not better or equal to something designed today.  Retro implies going backwards. (sort of like some threads on this forum the last few days )

Ken

Don't take me too seriously, I just like to debate. I do agree that the actual physical connection to the aircraft is what makes control line flying so unique.
Retro, I think, is not so much about moving backwards as it is about taking a fond look backwards. That's why so many Ringmasters are still flying. We've gotten older, but our models are just as much fun now as they were then.

[Ken Culbertson]

We've gotten older, but our models are just as much fun now as they were then.

More Fun!

Ken

[Mark wood]

I accept the qualification, but I stand behind my point.
Look at our current DLG gliders and competition sailplanes. Designed on computers, hollow molded from molds produced by computer controlled machines. Laid up entirely from ultra light and strong composite materials. Servos, rx's, gyros that are many generations more advanced from early r/c days, and you NEED a current design to be competitive.
Look at an FPV racing drone. Almost entirely a product of computer technology. Evolving in performance and capabilities at an almost daily pace. The only thing that they have in common with early model aviation is use of propellers.
In control line, Noblers, Ringmasters and Flight Streaks, are still popular. Cox .049's, Fox .35's and K&B .40's are still powering them. Sure, electric power, computer designed and produced parts, electronic timers, composite materials, advanced batteries, etc have modernized the sport, but control line design and technology from the 1960's to 1970's is still very much in common use to this day.
Control line IS retro.  That's a big part of it's appeal.

You haven't looked here around well enough yet. All that exists within the CL arena. Just look at some of the things I'm doing for one and I'm not the only one. All of the high tech materials are great, especially for the curb appeal and wow factor. For the low loads involved, balsa wood is still king.

[Mark wood]

Don't take me too seriously, I just like to debate. I do agree that the actual physical connection to the aircraft is what makes control line flying so unique.
Retro, I think, is not so much about moving backwards as it is about taking a fond look backwards. That's why so many Ringmasters are still flying. We've gotten older, but our models are just as much fun now as they were then.

You're in a good place for that..

[De Hill]

My Fox and my Ringmaster.

They comfort me.

[Jim Kraft]

I grew up in the ignition era. After I quit flying R/C pattern competition, I started flying control line again. Then on to ignition control line. I just love the sound and the way they run. Lots of torque but not high rpm engines. Now, if we could find a large enough building to fly on 65' ft lines but the noise would probably destroy what is left of our hearing. They are loud even with ear muffs.  But we can dream can't we? My back will not let me fly anymore anyway, but still enjoy my old spark ignition collection. I run them in my back yard when all my neighbors are gone to work. I converted a couple of OS four strokes to ignition. The old way. I made a breaker plate and used a set of Harley Sportster points. They run great on stove fuel and Walmart Super Tech synthetic 2 stroke oil mixed 16 to 1.

Keeps me busy.

[Brian Courtice]

You're in a good place for that..

Hahaha.
Too funny. Thanks for the laugh Mark!