Incessant problems #2 - lazy hands

[Brett Buck]

This one is also ALL over the place, and can probably be solved in many cases by yourself without anyone yelling at you, if you know about it.

   I am using an inside round loop but there are other examples for later. Basically, it's being too tentative with the control inputs. Even the lowly inside round loop requires a abrupt/*instantaneous* control input to enter it. You are supposed to fly around level, then enter the loop. That transition requires you to move the handle from neutral to the right position to attain/maintain the loop radius instantly, like, 0.0 seconds.



 If you don't you get this:




   
  While you are gently feeling your way to the correct handle input, the airplane is still moving, and winds up doing a part of a tightening spiral, at which point you are far too high. If you just continue the radius, your loop is the right diameter but the bottom is at 20 feet. Alternately you might notice that it's going to come out too high, and then dive it at the ground, pull a sharp corner, then it becomes egg-shaped

   If your loops persistently come out high, this is pretty likely to be the reason. The solution is to move your hand faster. Paul Walker is the absolute master at this sort of thing and the rest of us came along later and realized what was required. Note that if you overshoot, and get too much movement, then you end up having to egg-shape it again. So go practice.

  Note that this slow entry can be compensated for in other ways, like making the loops look like ellipses



   This was a real fad in the 70's in some areas, but it's just a smooth, pleasant mistake. Round loops should be round.

   Brett

[Randy Cuberly]

One common error I see even with some expert level fliers is vertical football shapes as the bottom and top of the loops are "searched for".  Rather than having an abrupt but shallow angle entry into the round loop it is abrupt and too steep which makes the arc of the loop too steep.  The 45 degree height is reached and then another abrupt but too steep arc is made on the downward slope and then since the angle is too steep for a smooth transition to level it begins again with a too steep climb into the second loop.  I've actually heard several people say well it's the 5 ft - 45 degree positions that are most important...NO!  It's also supposed to be round!  The best fliers make round loops that are just about perfectly imposed one over the other!

Randy Cuberly

[Trostle]

This one is also ALL over the place, and can probably be solved in many cases by yourself without anyone yelling at you, if you know about it.


   This was a real fad in the 70's in some areas, but it's just a smooth, pleasant mistake. Round loops should be round.

   Brett

Brett,

Good discussion.

I once had a discussion with a quite famous and excellent flier (among other things, he was a Walker Cup recipient) about the entry to the round loops.  He insisted that the entry to the loops should be gradual and "smooth".  Of course, this resulted in the ellipses you describe but the maneuver was "smooth", much in the manner of the accepted way the pattern was flown in the 60's/70's.  (And there are still proponents for this "style" to fly the pattern.)  He could not conceive the notion that the loop entry transition should be from level flight to instantly turning at the rate/radius required to accomplish a truly round loop.  Neither of us could convince the other about who was right

Keith

[Brett Buck]

I once had a discussion with a quite famous and excellent flier (among other things, he was a Walker Cup recipient) about the entry to the round loops.  He insisted that the entry to the loops should be gradual and "smooth".  Of course, this resulted in the ellipses you describe but the maneuver was "smooth", much in the manner of the accepted way the pattern was flown in the 60's/70's.  (And there are still proponents for this "style" to fly the pattern.)  He could not conceive the notion that the loop entry transition should be from level flight to instantly turning at the rate/radius required to accomplish a truly round loop.  Neither of us could convince the other about who was right

I am pretty sure we have the same person in mind, I drew that loop based on one very, let's say disappointing, day back in 1981 from an individual who was famous for this.  My reference was a very nice guy, and later became a charter member of my fan club!

    For what it is worth, Aldrich himself told me the same thing while he was excoriating Ted and I for the way we flew when we came in 1st and 3rd at the 2000 NATs (which made it extra-special for me, I have to say), since we were flying "harshly" and how Jim Silhavy would have beaten all of us with his hands tied behind his back. I said that *I* wasn't the one who designed the figures that way! He was pretty nice about it, too.

     My response is always that if someone doesn't like it, change the rule book, don't expect the pilots or the judges to overlook it at their own discretion. Then it really does just become a matter of individual whimsy who wins.

    It doesn't have to be harsh, it can look amazing smooth anyway, but you sure aren't going to manage it if your airplane is out of trim (because it will radically upset the airplane every time you do one of these transitions) and it takes a lot of practice.

   There's absolutely no reason that it has to be harsh. But it is *absolutely critical* to be able to distinguish to the judges that you are either flying in a straight line, or a curve of "constant radius", and not wandering in-between. That is all there is in the entire pattern - there is no place where it says "do a lazy undefined arc". Again, Paul Walker is the absolute master at this, and seeing him fly this was with the 40VF at the 1988 Golden State meet was a blinding revelation to several of us. The fact that you could now do that reliably under all conditions, more than anything else, utterly transformed the event, and we all went off and did what we could to achieve the same thing.

     Brett

p.s. Keith and I were NOT talking about the same guy. Still, both cases were Universal Stunt Heroes at the time (and now), in everybody's Top 10,  and deservedly so. Nonetheless...

[Peter Nevai]

"This was a real fad in the 70's in some areas, but it's just a smooth, pleasant mistake. Round loops should be round."

Guilty as charged 

[Steve Helmick]

On the other side of the story, I see some trying to do the instant change from level to radius and failing. They do nearly the first 90 deg. of the supposedly round loops and it looks like they're doing the squares out of sequence. Then do the same at the H8 and V8. No bueno.  Steve

[FLOYD CARTER]

I'll try to remember all these suggestions while trying to keep it "low", but not too low.  Hard enough keeping bottoms acceptable, without thinking about all these other problems!

My recent problem is staying on my feet while on overheads, or the reverse wingover.  Seems like advanced age disrupts stability without a horizon for reference.

Thanks, Brett

[Brett Buck]

On the other side of the story, I see some trying to do the instant change from level to radius and failing. They do nearly the first 90 deg. of the supposedly round loops and it looks like they're doing the squares out of sequence. Then do the same at the H8 and V8. No bueno.  Steve

  That's true, particularly in the Pacific Northwest, where they all try to emulate Paul Walker for some reason! However, if you were living in the upper midwest in the late 70's/early 80's, you might be inclined to make elliptical loops with a 1.5:1 aspect ratio for the same reason.

   Anything can be overdone, and the "stunt fliers maxim" is "if a little is good a lot is better and way too much is perfect". Being able to move rapidly to the *correct* handle position is a hard thing to do, which is why people tend to sneak up on it on a regular basis. And that leads neatly into the next topic, for later.

   Brett

[Tim Wescott]

I tend to remember body motions as sound (and perceive airplane motions the same way).  I aim for a subtle but discernible "tick" at the beginning of the round maneuvers (and at the intersections of the 8's -- which I'm sure you'll be getting to).

[Mike Callas]

Keep em coming Brett! I'm eating these posts up.

[Ted Fancher]

Keep em coming Brett! I'm eating these posts up.

Ditto

[Tom Luciano]

This is great stuff! I started working on it tonight.

Thank you, Brett!

Tom

[phil c]

For the 90% of the rest of us, once you make a mistake(and Brett points out a common one) don't continue by making more mistakes.  Flying three beautiful 60deg loops should not get much of a score. Neither will three wobbly 45deg loops Get back on track, preferably by the top of the loop, finish the second half at the right spot and fly two more the same.

Decent judges will notice when you get back on track and score accordingly.