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Author Topic: In the beginning. A little history.  (Read 1124 times)

Offline Tom Perry

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In the beginning. A little history.
« on: October 19, 2007, 02:38:01 PM »
This is another Post by John R. Abaray (Retro-53) on SSF.  Again reposted with his permission.

"In the beginning. A little history.
Posted by Retro_53, Fri Oct-19-07 10:03 AM

I flew in my first contest in 1948. The previous year stunt had been an event at the Nationals and C/L contests were becoming very popular. By 1950 where I lived there was a C/L contest almost every week within same day driving distance. And so the story begins.

Once apon a time long, long, ago contests were very different. There was an event for builders called the "Beauty Event" and there was an event for pilots called the "Stunt Event"

In the beauty event you got not only appearance points but also points for doing the stunt pattern. However, although they were pretty they were also heavy. Few if any maneuvers were attempted. The limited power of the time wasn't enough to drag them through the pattern like the big planes we see in Precision Aerobatics at the present time(also referred to by some as the stunt event). It wasn't a very popular event because few had the time, the patience, or the skills to build these works of art.

The stunt event was very different. Extremely popular it was an event for the masses. You had your work cut out because attendance was heavy even at a small local contest compared to the handful or two seen in contests today . There were a lot of rough looking planes but they got their share of the hardware. It didn't matter if your plane was pretty or not because the event was about how well you could fly.

In 1950 there was an article in a U.K. publication from which I quote:

"With the adoption, at the beginning of the 1950 season, of the S.A.M.E. C/L sub-comittees's very sensible "appearance points", rule the days of rough-looking box-like stunters for serious contest work definitely appeared to be numbered."

"Next season should see the virtual elimination of the shoddy contraptions which have been tolerated in the past."

At the end of 1952 the AMA adopted new rules.

In an article by Earl Witt I quote, "Emphasis is on precision and smooth flying, not how tight you turn. And a totally different scoring system helps the judging".

The new scoring system included appearance points.
Realism 1 to 4 points.
Finish 1 to 4 points.
Workmanship 1 to 4 points
Total 12 points.

As the planes got prettier the average builder began to disappear. Unfortunately this was the majority.

I could go on but at this point many of you came into the Hobby/Sport and know the rest.

I build my own planes. I have eliminated my own thoughts and comments about the state of CLPA and C/L in general.

This post is meant to be informative not arguementive.

Everything I have said is fact and well documented.

Retro_53" 
 
Tight lines,

Tom Perry
 Norfolk, Virginia

Offline Keith Spriggs

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Re: In the beginning. A little history.
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2007, 04:10:35 PM »
Very interesting.

Offline SteveMoon

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Re: In the beginning. A little history.
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2007, 04:43:29 PM »
It's good to hear the truth sometimes.

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: In the beginning. A little history.
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2007, 06:28:09 PM »
It's good to hear the truth sometimes.

Hi Steve.

Glad to hear that.  You'll be pleased to hear that the 1949 AMA rule book (a copy of which is sitting before me) has this to say in the paragraph titled "Appearance". "Models shall be udged for appearance complete and ready to fly including all equipment and attachments ....  Graded scoring between one and ten  shall be used, depending upon the degree of excellence of realism, workmanship and finish .... The points so obtained shall then be multiplied by eight  to obtain appearance points, which will therefore range from a minimum of eight to a maxiumum of 80 ... to be added to the contestant's flight points for scoring purposes" This is on page 31 of that rule book.

Checking the rules for 1951-52 (OTS Era) on page 49 the paragraph is identical, with a maximum of 80 points.  In the 1953 rulebook on page 16 came the first amendment which resulted in appearance points between  three and eleven to be multiplied by seven for a range of 21 to 77 points (don't ask me where that came from????).

In other words, the truth isn't entirely what you thought it was.

Steve, we're approaching 60 years of circumstantial but substantive evidence of the value of the the inclusion of recognition of craftsmanship skills to the single most long lived and successful event in control line history.  If we truly seek truth, we must not close our eyes to that evidence.

Glad we agree on the value of accuracy and full disclosure of the facts.

Ted

Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: In the beginning. A little history.
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2007, 08:49:15 PM »
Tom:
Interesting post, I had not seen that perspective before.  However if I read it correctly - the event DIED after adoption of appearance judging?  I think that is inaccurate.

Look at the four categories: Each strive to reward a different aspect of acheievement.  Workmanship & Finish are straight forward, the the other two are what really set the stage.  Originality was put there to encourage creativity, but Realism provided the buffer - so that aerobatic models would still look like viable airplanes and not thingies.  The closeset analogy I can come to would be to look at our brothers in RC.  There "hot" events are the alledged 3D hoverbats dominated by profiles and box kites.  Their Precision Aerobatics aircraft - the closest relations to CLPA aircraft - still exist,  but you have to look to find them.  If you take Earl Witt's quote to heart - he was singling out the stunt thingies back then too!

Query: what is the difference between CLPA and Stunt?  For me the letters PA could just as easily mean Performance Art.  Stunt is -- something Hollywood hires a daredevil to do.

I believe our more recent history points out what a mistake it was to retire the Originality and Realism categories (around 1973?) People then claimed they would still build the same but of course they did not.  For example, NO ONE painted canopies in 1972, now it is the norm - if people even bother to paint it at all.  Originality? how is it that I am contemplating my comeback using a 26 year old design - BECAUSE IT IS STILL ADVANCED!

Over time even the Workmanship & Finish de-volved into SHINE.  Case in point the now legendary F4F(?) reportedly very well built and finished in accurate flat colors.  Most folks conceded it was the BEST built bird at its NATs but - NO SHINE and a back row placing!

I believe the quote in the original post was accurate in that we should CONTINUE to encourage great aircraft, (designs and execution)

The reason we have successful OTS and Classic series is becaue  of our DESIGN driven heritage.  Ted calls CLPA "the single most long lived and successful event in control line history" and he is correct, though probably understating it.  For most folks on the outside looking in CL IS CLPA.
Denny Adamisin
Fort Wayne, IN

As I've grown older, I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pissing everyone off is a piece of cake!

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: In the beginning. A little history.
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2007, 05:31:43 PM »
Tom:
Interesting post, I had not seen that perspective before.  However if I read it correctly - the event DIED after adoption of appearance judging?  I think that is inaccurate.

Look at the four categories: Each strive to reward a different aspect of acheievement.  Workmanship & Finish are straight forward, the the other two are what really set the stage.  Originality was put there to encourage creativity, but Realism provided the buffer - so that aerobatic models would still look like viable airplanes and not thingies.  The closeset analogy I can come to would be to look at our brothers in RC.  There "hot" events are the alledged 3D hoverbats dominated by profiles and box kites.  Their Precision Aerobatics aircraft - the closest relations to CLPA aircraft - still exist,  but you have to look to find them.  If you take Earl Witt's quote to heart - he was singling out the stunt thingies back then too!

Query: what is the difference between CLPA and Stunt?  For me the letters PA could just as easily mean Performance Art.  Stunt is -- something Hollywood hires a daredevil to do.

I believe our more recent history points out what a mistake it was to retire the Originality and Realism categories (around 1973?) People then claimed they would still build the same but of course they did not.  For example, NO ONE painted canopies in 1972, now it is the norm - if people even bother to paint it at all.  Originality? how is it that I am contemplating my comeback using a 26 year old design - BECAUSE IT IS STILL ADVANCED!

Over time even the Workmanship & Finish de-volved into SHINE.  Case in point the now legendary F4F(?) reportedly very well built and finished in accurate flat colors.  Most folks conceded it was the BEST built bird at its NATs but - NO SHINE and a back row placing!

I believe the quote in the original post was accurate in that we should CONTINUE to encourage great aircraft, (designs and execution)

The reason we have successful OTS and Classic series is becaue  of our DESIGN driven heritage.  Ted calls CLPA "the single most long lived and successful event in control line history" and he is correct, though probably understating it.  For most folks on the outside looking in CL IS CLPA.


Denny,

Well stated and, in my opinion, very accurate.

I believe the event throws out the source of that "DESIGN driven heritage" at its peril ... at least as we've come to know it over the near 60 years of its existence.  Unlike some, I've no financial dog in this fight, only a lifetime of exposure to that finest and most successful of all CL events.  I'd hate to see the event fundamentally altered merely to calm the hue and cry driven in large part by those who hope to pro$it by doing so. 

It just seems the wrong reason to me.

Ted

Offline Bill Little

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Re: In the beginning. A little history.
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2007, 12:09:03 AM »
Hi Ted,

Actually, all the talk I hear is that it is to increase the participation levels by allowing more people to fly.  That is the part I am waiting on someone to answer for me.  No one (short of the Official Nats categories) is prohibited from participating at the present time whether they fly a begged, borrowed, bought, or stolen model!  They just do so without AP.  Now unless said "new particpant" is capable of winning the Walker Trophy the first time out, I don't see a problem, personally. 

Participation, alone, cannot be the reason so many people holler about the BOM.
Big Bear <><

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AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: In the beginning. A little history.
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2007, 02:48:28 AM »
Bill, I think you've summed it up quite well.  I have my own thoughts on the BOM rule, and I admit they're largely affected by unpleasant memories of teenage kids and their dads arguing to the point of tears back when I was an active Contest Director.  The rule is absolutely unenforceable.  I'm never going to compete for the Walker Cup, so how it's applied to CLPA is of little consequence to me.

I have been around CL competition for years and years, have competed in several Nats, and have known several prominent CLPA competitors over that time span.  Its been said that grieving over change is mostly grieving over what might have been, or an idealized yesteryear.  Or something to that effect.  Well, I believe it.

I confess to occasionally being stunned when I read statements on internet forums to the effect that CLPA has always honored the BOM rule, and that - well, that the "old farts" now posting have always built their own airplanes.

Forgive me for blinking, but some making those statements today are modelers who either (a) judged CLPA at AAA contests in the upper Midwest and simply looked the other way - after awarding appearance points to contestants they knew were flying purchased airplanes - and/or (b) actually entered AAA contests with purchased airplanes, despite signing entry forms certifying compliance with the rules!  I know, I was there!

My perspective is certainly different than that of many here, who perhaps have primarily been interested in CLPA over the years.  I've often said that I learned to fly control line just so that I could fly combat.  My memories of contests in those mid '50s here are of (a) relatively few CLPA entries, and (b) dozens of "rough looking" Sterling Mustangs, Yaks and Ringmasters with inexpensive McCoy engines in the combat event.   And those "rough looking" airplanes did not win their share of hardware in combat.

As my own flying skills improved, so did the workmanship and appearance of my airplanes.  By the early to mid '60s, I was traveling to several contests each year and was frequently asked, "You're not going to fly that airplane in combat, are you!?!"  Many of the airplanes I flew were my own design or modified kits.

I took pride not only in my flying, but in the construction and appearance of the airplanes I flew.  With or without points for appearance.  Isn't that a natural progression?

I attended the '68 Olathe Nats with extremely high hopes for my protégé, Ted Berman - an AMA Senior at the time.  Ted was an incredibly talented combat flyer.  I'll never forget the first time he asked me to show him a maneuver I sometimes used, sort of a 3/4th outside loop from level flight, followed by a climb into the path of the opponent's streamer.  Pretty basic, but we were flying airplanes doing about 115 mph, and Ted was only about 14 at the time.  He misjudged the first attempt, but scored a perfectly clean kill on his second attempt.

Within perhaps 6 years, Ted had given up CL flying for RC and the "real thing"; he had his instrument instructor’s rating within the shortest time span allowable, or at the minimum age, as I recall.  He'd also been diagnosed with an almost always (at the time) fatal form of cancer, and spent perhaps 2 years in California receiving treatment that may have been experimental at the time.  In all honesty, I suspect most of us who knew him assumed he was as good as dead.

So I was shocked as hell when - shortly after his return from California - he called me the night before a AAA contest here, asking if he could borrow the combat airplanes and engines he'd passed on to me in order to compete the next day.  He looked as white as a sheet the next morning, only weaker.  He hadn't flown any type of CL airplane for several years.  But I was so thrilled to see him give it a shot - not to mention that he was still alive - that I prepped several airplanes for him, passed on flying myself and just pitted for him.

He took one practice flight, and then finished First in a cake walk.  I think Phil Cartier can attest to that.

Now, back to 1968 and my promising protégé - Ted's weakness as a teen had been his building.  He could easily have purchased airplanes built by craftsmen, or even by me (ha ha!) - think about all the money his father spent to get him that flight instruction.  But the BOM applied to combat at the time, and I wouldn't build airplanes for him.

Long story short, Ted was the first match called.  His opponent buried his own airplane quickly.  The judges then began waving at Ted in an agitated manner, but made no attempt to send anyone out to speak to him.  Ted moved further away from the judges and pit area, as any of us assumed the judges wanted.  When Ted's engine quit, the judges (a) disqualified him for moving out of the "pilot's circle", then (b) marked the circle with lime, and (c) refused to accept written petitions on his behalf.

I was absolutely livid!

... So imagine my disgust several months later, when one of the magazines carried a construction article by Jim Mears which openly stated that several of these planes were given to seniors for the '68 Nats, and, if I remember correctly, Sherwin Buckstaff won the event flying an airplane he didn't build.  Moreover: Looking at the judges for the event, I will to my grave be pretty certain they knew that.

I sent an angry letter to then Executive Director John Worth, detailing not only the events of the '68 Nats but BOM problems in general, and his response was pretty much "so what?"

And that, folks, was pretty much “the final straw” with regard to my support of the BOM rule.  If violation of the rule is openly flaunted with no consequence, how can you possibly expect to enforce it?  And, please, save me the drama about integrity ...



Regards,


Dennis

Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline Iskandar Taib

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Re: In the beginning. A little history.
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2007, 04:07:03 AM »
Actually, all the talk I hear is that it is to increase the participation levels by allowing more people to fly.  That is the part I am waiting on someone to answer for me.  No one (short of the Official Nats categories) is prohibited from participating at the present time whether they fly a begged, borrowed, bought, or stolen model!  They just do so without AP.  Now unless said "new particpant" is capable of winning the Walker Trophy the first time out, I don't see a problem, personally. 

Participation, alone, cannot be the reason so many people holler about the BOM.

It's not so much the "new participants", but rather those who are capable of doing well in local contests but will compete at a very significant disadvantage if they do so without appearance points. So if they can't build for some reason (no time, no space, no skills) then they just end up not competing, and this lowers participation.

I've also pointed out that, at the upper levels of competition, it's not the cheap, Chinese ARFs that are the threat, and the reason for keeping the BOM - it's the Yatsenko Sharks and custom-built planes from builders-for-hire. Getting a hire-built airplane saves one hundreds of hours, which one could use for practice. Some people actually say some people do this already, to some degree, but aren't being penalized for it (hence the "enforceability" argument).

I'm not arguing for or against BOM (I'm actually for it, from a spectator's point of view), just pointing out why I think the issue generates so much heat.


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