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Author Topic: In case you have not seen this  (Read 8708 times)

Online Mike Griffin

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In case you have not seen this
« on: August 02, 2019, 05:48:32 AM »
With all the discussion about balsa right now and its use in these windmills, this gives you an idea of how massive these things are.

Mike

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2019, 06:18:42 AM »
With all the discussion about balsa right now and its use in these windmills, this gives you an idea of how massive these things are.

Mike

Here's an interesting read.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/wind-turbines-are-neither-clean-nor-green-and-they-provide-zero-global-energy/

Easy to believe and true, plus this isn't difficult to figure out.
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Offline John Lindberg

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2019, 06:35:16 AM »
The fisherman up near Massachusetts hate the "windmills" because they make so much noise and scare the fish. They are putting up a wind farm there, guess a MacDonalds fish sandwich price will go up, unless the Commies take control and we get price controls, in that case, expect a smaller sandwich, or more filler in the fish patie!  VD~   

Offline JoeJust

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2019, 09:13:44 AM »
We had nearly 600 of these beasts come though our small town. I wrote an article about them, including pictures for the now defunct CLW. The only feedback I got was a denial saying that the story wasn't true.  Now many of these windmills are going dead and now another group of new blades is making its way though our village. Figures.
Joe Just
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Offline Steve_Pollock

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2019, 10:28:44 AM »
The fishermen along the Gulf coast love the oil drilling platforms because they draw fish like a magnet.  More oil, less wind?  Heresy!!!

Offline Tony Drago

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2019, 10:45:08 AM »
We had nearly 600 of these beasts come though our small town. I wrote an article about them, including pictures for the now defunct CLW. The only feedback I got was a denial saying that the story wasn't true.  Now many of these windmills are going dead and now another group of new blades is making its way though our village. Figures.
Joe Just
Goes to show you. Gov't likes to throw good money after bad money.

Offline Tony Drago

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2019, 10:53:38 AM »
I read an article about an island in the Hawaiin chain that had 150 of these wind turbines just sitting there, abandoned and rusting. Seems the company got it's loot from the gummint and quit, took it and ran.

 
Ty. Those turbines are extremely high maintenance. They can not take the stress load those blades put on the turbines. It's a losing proposition all around. The bureaucracy will not admit it is a failed project.

Offline Steven Kientz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2019, 03:26:39 PM »
Fowler Ridge wind farm in northwest Indiana has 200+ wind turbines. I've been by there several times and have only seen 1 or 2 working.
Steve Kientz
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Offline qaz049

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2019, 10:16:12 AM »
Here's an interesting read.

Easy to believe and true, plus this isn't difficult to figure out.

... and the fact that the article's author owns a coal mine is irrelevant?

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2019, 11:40:24 AM »
... and the fact that the article's author owns a coal mine is irrelevant?

Yes, it's irrelevant.

You're not going to believe what I'm about to tell you, but I don't care.

From 2009 and 2010, along with two journalists representing a news paper in LA, We researched windmills. We came to this same conclusion back in late 2010. They are visual and nothing else.

Our conclusion was arrived at long before it was fashionable and long before the article I have posted. Difficult to understand turbine windmill farms are fake. Well, not really fake but they, for the investment and maintenance, the give back was absolutely nothing.

I forgot the exact figure these things cost to manufacture and assemble on location, I'd have to pull my notes because the cost was a variable. $2 to $3 million each back then. My guess, more today because "they" make it so. $4 million plus? Probably.

These things serve no useful purpose on land and pointless, more costly and more maintenance at sea. Ironically, an "outfit," a large conglomeration of corrupt Liberal Democrats, elected to erect a bunch of them "off shore." They work with Public Utilities Commissions.

Just after learning about this, many news stories and all, plenty of them, I contacted a journalists in LA who wrote a "favorable" article on windmills, photo and all. I saw her article at an airport between flights. The article was above the fold.

My initial conversation and immediate research changed everything for this journalists, her point of view and focus was now different and finally on track.

She was fed too much baloney from that industry. It's a big industry. Billion$.

Her editor said, "Run with it!" The three of us did. I fed them research information for one year. She broke the story and the "deal" went sideways. Many lawsuits.  LL~

Incidentally, "someone" did a really good clean up of all the derogatory information published on line at that time about the lawsuits. Gee.

BTW. Yes, I was paid well.  ;D

Ripley's, believe it or not.

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Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2019, 05:14:24 PM »
... and the fact that the article's author owns a coal mine is irrelevant?

Factual truth of a statement doesn't depend on the source.

If I'm not mistaken, windmill farms were sold some years ago on projections which showed them to provide power at costs comparable to nuclear power plants.  One assumption was that each would last 25 years.

Windmill farms are being taken down after 20 years now as we read and write here.  How many nuclear power plants lasted only 20 or 25 years?

Same bill of goods was sold on solar power - in the '70s many received huge tax credits for installing solar panels on their homes.  Which of your neighbors power their homes with solar panels today?

Progress is usually good, but please don't sell us with projections that are, on their surface, obviously misleading.

Dennis
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2019, 08:29:47 PM »
I read an article about an island in the Hawaiin chain that had 150 of these wind turbines just sitting there, abandoned and rusting. Seems the company got it's loot from the gummint and quit, took it and ran.

I'm stopping in Hawaii on the way back from Afghanistan...who has a really big boat...

Offline qaz049

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2019, 05:02:01 AM »
Factual truth of a statement doesn't depend on the source.

If I'm not mistaken, windmill farms were sold some years ago on projections which showed them to provide power at costs comparable to nuclear power plants.  One assumption was that each would last 25 years.

Windmill farms are being taken down after 20 years now as we read and write here.  How many nuclear power plants lasted only 20 or 25 years?

Same bill of goods was sold on solar power - in the '70s many received huge tax credits for installing solar panels on their homes.  Which of your neighbors power their homes with solar panels today?

Progress is usually good, but please don't sell us with projections that are, on their surface, obviously misleading.

Dennis, I think that you're wrong :-)

My brother has new solar panels on his house. He say's that they have reduced his electricity bill by two thirds.


Dennis

Offline Ara Dedekian

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2019, 08:40:41 AM »
The fisherman up near Massachusetts hate the "windmills" because they make so much noise and scare the fish.


      A friend getting his PhD in bat studies is working with the manufacturers and environmentalists researching bats vs. turbine blades. It's estimated hundreds of thousands of bats are killed every year in the US by the blades.

      Scared fish, dead birds and bats, lousy engineering, Hmmmm..., not looking good for the panacea of our finite energy resources.

      Ara

Offline Arlan McKee

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2019, 09:15:07 AM »
qaz049 said,
 "My brother has new solar panels on his house. He say's that they have reduced his electricity bill by two thirds."

How many decades before they pay for themselves?


Offline qaz049

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2019, 08:13:54 PM »
qaz049 said,
 "My brother has new solar panels on his house. He say's that they have reduced his electricity bill by two thirds."

How many decades before they pay for themselves?

About four years actually.

Offline qaz049

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2019, 08:16:15 PM »
      A friend getting his PhD in bat studies is working with the manufacturers and environmentalists researching bats vs. turbine blades. It's estimated hundreds of thousands of bats are killed every year in the US by the blades.

      Scared fish, dead birds and bats, lousy engineering, Hmmmm..., not looking good for the panacea of our finite energy resources.

      Ara

Just two words refute all that garbage, Chernobyl and Fukushima.

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2019, 08:47:23 PM »
I'm stopping in Hawaii on the way back from Afghanistan...who has a really big boat...

 Just buy yourself an oar when you get there, the blade should float.  ;D
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

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Offline phil c

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2019, 07:22:44 PM »
I want to once again thank you all for the contributions you made to the solar panels on our house.  I originally planned a 3.4kW installation.  It was quite expensive, but there was a $7500 Federal rebate which made it doable.  I figured it would pay for itself before the solar panels wore out too much.  A year later, as it was still producing enough power to more or less offset the AC costs we added another row of panel to make it 5.6 kW.

Thanks to the wooly minded thinking of legislators we got another $7500 from the feds, $4500 from PA, and $4500 from the power company(there was a flap about that but the judge said that it was legal the way the law was written.  Now the panels will pay for themselves in another couple years.

To go along with the nonsense PA instituted a 20% renewable energy(oxymoron if there ever was one) mandate for the power companies.  Most of the East coast has a version.  The power company either has to build the plants or buy Renewable Energy Credits to be holy.  As a result we now get more than enough payments every year to pay the total electric bill plus rebates on the power the panels generate.

Thank you all for your support.  I hope more people like most here start voting for some realism!
phil Cartier

Offline Arlan McKee

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2019, 09:07:22 PM »
I want to once again thank you all for the contributions you made to the solar panels on our house.  I originally planned a 3.4kW installation.  It was quite expensive, but there was a $7500 Federal rebate which made it doable.  I figured it would pay for itself before the solar panels wore out too much.  A year later, as it was still producing enough power to more or less offset the AC costs we added another row of panel to make it 5.6 kW.

Thanks to the wooly minded thinking of legislators we got another $7500 from the feds, $4500 from PA, and $4500 from the power company(there was a flap about that but the judge said that it was legal the way the law was written.  Now the panels will pay for themselves in another couple years.

To go along with the nonsense PA instituted a 20% renewable energy(oxymoron if there ever was one) mandate for the power companies.  Most of the East coast has a version.  The power company either has to build the plants or buy Renewable Energy Credits to be holy.  As a result we now get more than enough payments every year to pay the total electric bill plus rebates on the power the panels generate.

Thank you all for your support.  I hope more people like most here start voting for some realism!

I appreciate your position on this, Phil. If anyone should benefit from this waste of my taxes I'm glad it was a fellow modeler.

Online katana

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2019, 03:08:10 AM »
About four years actually.

Qaz - I think you are trying to convert people who don't actually care! The US is the worlds largest energy consumer per capita - they have vast reserves of coal and oil and gas, so why would they care what happens in the rest of the world? Any country that values cars to the point of providing heated and air conditioned garages for  the storage of them, is strange in the head IMO. People who choose to live in the southern states where air conditioning in houses, garages, work places, workshops, cars in fact just about everywhere is required to make living 'comfortable' rather than live where the climate as a whole is comfortable and doesn't require ten's of Gigawatts of power to artificially condition the world are again strange in the head!
The burning of fossil / carbon based fuels is not an answer, it is the cause of the problem! Burning wood is at best only carbon neutral - growing trees use atmospheric CO2 to grow, burning them releases it! Oil and coal on the other hand is 100's of millions of years worth of trees/plant material, locked away, and is being released when burnt which CANNOT be recycled by planting a few more trees to offset it - certainly not with the rate of deforestation across the globe! The Human species has been around for maybe 10,000 yrs?, been 'civilised' for 4,000, industrialised for 250 and we talk about our 'history' - such a short term view in geologic time when the planet has been around for 4-5 BILLION years and has coped without our intervention quite well but as a 'developing' species we seem to be hell bent on destroying it one way or another! Be aware that the natural world doesn't like imbalance - it will rectify it and there is nothing Homo Sapiens (without radical and total global change) can do will affect that outcome except make like the dinosaurs!
I'm no tree hugger / environmentalist / fruit loop - just a normal joe who see's both sides of the coin! I won't be around (hopefully) when it all goes pear shaped but that doesn't mean I don't care!

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2019, 06:14:48 AM »
Small solar panels work well for home applications. Obviously.

The Government uses people to front the positive use and $ savings return for the average home owner.

This 3rd party expense, sure, tax dollars, but don't forget why they give this money up.

The program is designed to be "positive." This keeps attention to the larger "solar farms" that cost millions and really don't give back enough "created" energy to make them useful. You'll never light a hospital or an airport with either one of these.

Anyone with acres of land can get a "rental" check by letting the land be used for solar panels. It's favorable advertisement.

I remember the first Turbine Windmill in my home state. They planted it next to I-95, plenty of traffic, for political reasons. A showcase. Well, the thing @#$% the bed when the transmission, or some other large part failed.

It was said the part was no longer available because the company folded. "They" did a retro-fit at a ridiculous cost.

Sure, some positive personal uses can save those that participate a few bucks, but as a whole, nationally, large farms, the return isn't worth the payout in tax dollars.

So, how do you fix an industry that's run by those who are out of control? Spending someone else's money is great. Green is in.
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Offline frank williams

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2019, 07:59:54 AM »
Does anyone have any pictures of how the balsa is used in the blades? ...... I see pictures of the molds and finished blades but none of how the balsa might actually be utilized in the blades. 

Online Mike Griffin

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2019, 09:35:08 AM »
Does anyone have any pictures of how the balsa is used in the blades? ...... I see pictures of the molds and finished blades but none of how the balsa might actually be utilized in the blades.

This is a great question Frank.  Would like to know that too.


Mike

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2019, 10:22:01 AM »
Does anyone have any pictures of how the balsa is used in the blades? ...... I see pictures of the molds and finished blades but none of how the balsa might actually be utilized in the blades.

End grain balsa is also used in the construction of fiberglass boats. There are plenty of boats.
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If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline frank williams

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2019, 08:16:33 PM »
I found this .... the balsa is an underlayment to the glass skins.  Don't know if its end grain or linear sheets. 

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2019, 09:03:05 PM »
We build all kinds of ridiculously complicated tech stuff. We design and build huge planes, ships, buildings, whatnot. Have for a long while. Stuff that’s gigantic in size stays working  for years and years. Of course it makes absolute sense to some that a big durable whirligig manufactured for a competitive price is beyond us. Not exactly a brilliant conclusion.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2019, 09:14:05 PM »
Yeah it’s super smart to laugh at new tech energy sources. Have your yucks. The rest of the world is laughing at us in their rear view mirrors as we become footnotes in history. The America that was. At one time we embraced innovation and new ideas. Welcomed talented people and hardworking people from wherever they came from. We didn’t  have to lie to ourselves about what we are becoming and why.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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In case you have not seen this
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2019, 09:24:14 PM »
What do we need balsa for anyway? Carbon fiber and other materials build lighter and way stronger. Even free flight enthusiasts gave up
on the the stuff years back.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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In case you have not seen this
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2019, 09:36:20 PM »
How many rpm does a garden variety jet turbine turn what temperature what load do they endure hour after hour year after year. How big is a super tanker do they turn a propeller at the keister, what diameter is that, what load on those bearings, does it churn in a toxic brew of seawater, rusto super duper? Yeah. A big propeller out there in the wind turning an AC something or other way beyond us. Way beyond us to make it durable at a decent price.


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« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 06:51:38 AM by Dennis Moritz »

Offline Dennis Moritz

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In case you have not seen this
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2019, 09:57:46 PM »
We can use balsa for nostalgia builds. Contest wood bordering on punk not required. Where is the carbon fiber hollow wing for around 250? Even 300 wouldn’t be far off for current top stunt wings. Yeah a wing that won’t warp nearly strong enough to walk on— must be dreaming or European.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2019, 10:02:26 PM »
Convert you. Waste of time. Bye bye.


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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2019, 10:07:37 PM »
I found this .... the balsa is an underlayment to the glass skins.  Don't know if its end grain or linear sheets.

     Look at the sketch again. It says balsa OR foam core. I believe it was reported that the wood is shredded up and mixed with a resin and poured into the mold. That makes more sense considering the shape of the airfoil and the twist in the blade. It's a pretty complex shape. It would take forever and a year to lay up sheet or blocks of balsa with glue, and then work and sand to shape on something that big.
  But Chuck has the best idea! Go out and steal boats! There are plenty out boats out there, he says so! They have balsa in compression on the end grain! We can steal theboats, and trade them to the turbine blade makers for some 4 to 6 pound wood!, Yeah, that's the ticket!!!
  Type at you later,
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Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2019, 10:13:01 PM »
This prompted me to do some research on how these gigantic blades are built. GE has a plant in Le Harve, France building blades that are 107 meters in length. That's 351 feet long, one blade. The offshore turbine will have three such blades. One turbine will power 16,000 French homes. They seem to have it figured out. I don't understand the anti-science remarks above, as the rest of the world outside the US has made the decision to ditch fossil fuels and substitute solar and wind power, and possibly better-designed nuclear power (which still leaves spent fuel rods to deal with). China, Germany and others are far ahead of us. Why is that?

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2019, 01:11:11 AM »
Dennis, I think that you're wrong :-)

My brother has new solar panels on his house. He say's that they have reduced his electricity bill by two thirds.

Apparently I didn’t make myself clear, so I repeat:

Progress is usually good, but please don't sell us with projections that are, on their surface, obviously misleading.


Early windmill farms were sold on projections that seriously stunk - witness those coming down after 20 years or less.  Huge refundable tax credits were granted to U.S. taxpayers who installed solar panels in the ‘70s.  I doubt those installations were economically feasible without the tac credits and suspect most have been inactive for many years, like those on my in-laws’ house.

I just ask that we consider all impacts that new technology brings with it.

Dennis
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline frank williams

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2019, 05:18:50 PM »
China brings a new coal fueled power plant online every week.  Wind doesn't work without subsidies, no one would build one without the govt dollars.  Solar would be nice, but its not gonna happen in our time.  .... and .... CO2 isn't a pollutant, and even though the global temp changes, its not man's fault.  The sad thing is that its easily researched that there is only one paper that relates a change in global temp to the industrial revolution .... and its been shown to be in error and a hoax.  Good news .... we've got plenty of natural gas and oil.

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2019, 05:49:01 PM »
Yeah it’s super smart to laugh at new tech energy sources. Have your yucks. The rest of the world is laughing at us in their rear view mirrors as we become footnotes in history. The America that was. At one time we embraced innovation and new ideas. Welcomed talented people and hardworking people from wherever they came from. We didn’t  have to lie to ourselves about what we are becoming and why.



Seems someone was having a very bad day, I hope today is better.

Dennis, I don't mind anyone laughing at me - I'm 75% Norwegian and love making fun of "us", there's a lot to laugh at in my case especially!

But to be serious - Australia is asking to tap into U.S. Reserves; seems the country - especially South Australia - has been hell-bent on tearing down plants powered by coal, and in the meantime let their oil & gas reserves dip to just a 30-day supply.  ("Australia Looks to Siphon U.S. Oil Stockpile to Avoid Running Out of Gas" - Wall Street Journal, TODAY).

I'm not laughing - Australia is an important ally, and we should only be wishing them the best.  But I doubt they would be laughing at us while asking to share our reserves …

Even the most die-hard advocates of wind & solar energy should, at this point, acknowledge the new technology can't meet all of our needs, all of the time.

The future will hopefully be brighter.

Dennis
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2019, 05:52:08 PM »
... and the fact that the article's author owns a coal mine is irrelevant?

I looked up Matt Ridley and grazed through Wikipedia's summary of him. Didn't see anything about him owning a coal mine. Would you please point out where it says that he does?   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Ridley

There are a few "wind farms" here also, and they're almost never doing anything. One or maybe two of dozens might be gently rotating, while the rest do not. Here, anyway, the owners apparently don't do any maintenance….the bearings are known to be inadequately sized, and when they go bad, the generator section often catches fire. Out here in Western USA, that's bad news, just like in Aussie.   y1 Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2019, 05:56:40 PM »
Lotsa sun in Australia.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2019, 05:59:50 PM »
Guess the French can do what your neighbors can’t. (Doubt it)


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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In case you have not seen this
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2019, 06:04:31 PM »
Ugly naked guy chopping ice. What. On the other hand their government run health care and education systems, tip top.


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Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2019, 06:45:14 PM »
Ugly naked guy chopping ice. What. On the other hand their government run health care and education systems, tip top.


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Yup!  Great economy - Norway's modern manufacturing and welfare system rely on a financial reserve produced by exploitation of natural resources, particularly North Sea oil.

You like that stuff, right Moritz?  Who needs solar or wind turbines!?!
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2019, 08:42:49 PM »
This prompted me to do some research on how these gigantic blades are built. GE has a plant in Le Harve, France building blades that are 107 meters in length. That's 351 feet long, one blade. The offshore turbine will have three such blades. One turbine will power 16,000 French homes. They seem to have it figured out. I don't understand the anti-science remarks above, as the rest of the world outside the US has made the decision to ditch fossil fuels and substitute solar and wind power, and possibly better-designed nuclear power (which still leaves spent fuel rods to deal with). China, Germany and others are far ahead of us. Why is that?

"Necessity is the mother of invention".

Mike, I think at least part of the answer is a simple everyday word: need.  Meaning we need a reason to adopt new technology and economic justification.

I can easily remember when our air was "cleaner".  When I first traveled to California in the early '60s, I swore I'd never live where there was so much smog.  Driving toward Minneapolis one morning in the late '70s, I realized it caught up with me.

I read an article about Manchuria about a year ago.  People in that country are basically all migrating to large, crowded cities, living in huge apartment buildings, and burning tons of coal - even for heat and cooking.  And it shows … I would never want children to grow up in the resulting environment.

China has a HUGE problem - Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) affects 8.6% of the adult population, or almost 100 million people.

If that doesn't spell out a need for major change right now, I don't know what would.
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2019, 09:02:11 PM »
  I wonder if anyone has ever done a study of how all these solar panels that are aimed at the sun affect the temps in the upper atmosphere? Look how much damage you can do with a small, dime store magnifying glass if held the right way? All of that bright sunlight bouncing off the panels, and probably even getting magnified in the process, for 12 hours each sunny day. It may sound far fetched until you think about the people that have cooked themselves to death by lining their beach chairs with aluminum foil to hurry their tan along, fall asleep, and then never wake up!. That only takes a few hours. There must not be any sizable money in it for anybody to research it.
   And how about low level wind patterns being screwed up by windmills that are or are not turning? There are stretches of these farms that are 20 miles or more long near the interstates. That's not as far fetched as cow farts causing global warming!!  I have even read that someone was granted to study termite farts as part of what adds the methane to the atmosphere! I didn't read how they determined that termites fart!
   And I'll NEVER forget the scientists claiming the the 60's and 70's that the world will be COMPLETELY out of oil by the year 2000! I guess some one forgot to tell the dinosaurs that are buried deep in the earth that they were supposed to quit farting natural gas and peeing crude oil by then!
    The world turns on an axis that is powered by and lubricated by oil and gas, always has and always will.
   Type at you later,
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Offline Tony Drago

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2019, 10:01:10 PM »
Makes a lot of sense.  Cooking the atmosphere from  top and the bottom. Not good...

Offline JoeJust

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2019, 09:30:53 AM »
Boeing was the first to try wind mills in WA State. They had two or there of them built near  Goldendale where the wind ALWAYS BLOWS EVERY DAY!  After a good length of time they tore the windmills down and walked away from the wind mill industry because there was no way it could ever be profitable!
   Now with the State Government launching the weirdest climate laws there are a couple of thousand of these useless fans in Eastern WA, most just diddling around and nobody makes any money except the land owners who gave up the crap shoot of farming for an annual step up to he government teat!
Ever wonder why now windmills are never built near huge populations of tree huggers?
Joe
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Offline 11290

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2019, 10:35:46 AM »
About 2 minutes in starts the infusing of the balsa blocking.

Evansville, IN & Orlando, FL

Offline Bruce Shipp

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2019, 11:29:38 AM »
From the Aug 6, 2019 Wall Street Journal

 

If You Want ‘Renewable Energy,’ Get Ready to Dig

By

Mark P. Mills

Aug. 5, 2019 6:48 pm ET

Democrats dream of powering society entirely with wind and solar farms combined with massive batteries. Realizing this dream would require the biggest expansion in mining the world has seen and would produce huge quantities of waste.

“Renewable energy” is a misnomer. Wind and solar machines and batteries are built from nonrenewable materials. And they wear out. Old equipment must be decommissioned, generating millions of tons of waste. The International Renewable Energy Agency calculates that solar goals for 2050 consistent with the Paris Accords will result in old-panel disposal constituting more than double the tonnage of all today’s global plastic waste. Consider some other sobering numbers:

A single electric-car battery weighs about 1,000 pounds. Fabricating one requires digging up, moving and processing more than 500,000 pounds of raw materials somewhere on the planet. The alternative? Use gasoline and extract one-tenth as much total tonnage to deliver the same number of vehicle-miles over the battery’s seven-year life.

When electricity comes from wind or solar machines, every unit of energy produced, or mile traveled, requires far more materials and land than fossil fuels. That physical reality is literally visible: A wind or solar farm stretching to the horizon can be replaced by a handful of gas-fired turbines, each no bigger than a tractor-trailer.

Building one wind turbine requires 900 tons of steel, 2,500 tons of concrete and 45 tons of nonrecyclable plastic. Solar power requires even more cement, steel and glass—not to mention other metals. Global silver and indium mining will jump 250% and 1,200% respectively over the next couple of decades to provide the materials necessary to build the number of solar panels, the International Energy Agency forecasts. World demand for rare-earth elements—which aren’t rare but are rarely mined in America—will rise 300% to 1,000% by 2050 to meet the Paris green goals. If electric vehicles replace conventional cars, demand for cobalt and lithium, will rise more than 20-fold That doesn’t count batteries to back up wind and solar grids.

Last year a Dutch government-sponsored study concluded that the Netherlands’ green ambitions alone would consume a major share of global minerals. “Exponential growth in [global] renewable energy production capacity is not possible with present-day technologies and annual metal production,” it concluded.

The demand for minerals likely won’t be met by mines in Europe or the U.S. Instead, much of the mining will take place in nations with oppressive labor practices. The Democratic Republic of the Congo produces 70% of the world’s raw cobalt, and China controls 90% of cobalt refining. The Sydney-based Institute for a Sustainable Future cautions that a global “gold” rush for minerals could take miners into “some remote wilderness areas [that] have maintained high biodiversity because they haven’t yet been disturbed.”

What’s more, mining and fabrication require the consumption of hydrocarbons. Building enough wind turbines to supply half the world’s electricity would require nearly two billion tons of coal to produce the concrete and steel, along with two billion barrels of oil to make the composite blades. More than 90% of the world’s solar panels are built in Asia on coal-heavy electric grids.

Engineers joke about discovering “unobtanium,” a magical energy-producing element that appears out of nowhere, requires no land, weighs nothing, and emits nothing. Absent the realization of that impossible dream, hydrocarbons remain a far better alternative than today’s green dreams.

Mr. Mills is a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute and a partner in Cottonwood Venture Partners, an energy-tech venture fund, and author of the recent report, “The ‘New Energy Economy’: An Exercise in Magical Thinking.”
Appeared in the August 6, 2019, print edition.

Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2019, 12:10:43 PM »
Bruce, great post. But there you go trying to inject reason and logic, not to mention actual science, into a purely emotion/guilt driven argument.  Convince enough of these people that "clean energy" is needed to save the planet and they won't think twice to fire up a tractor and dig a hole in a forest the size of Vermont to get the "green" materials.
We are not dealing with rational people.

Gary
Profanity is the crutch of the illiterate mind

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2019, 01:40:18 PM »
16,000 homes one wind powered whirligig. The rare minerals can be recycled. Lots of empty space in the USA. Germany somehow manages to have days where all electric is powered by renewables. People live a lot longer there. Also. In fact their life expectancy is on the rise. USA dying younger and younger. German government run health care rates much better than ours. Half the cost. Free college. Damn liberals valuing education. Free even for Americans who wish to switch. Wow. Norway pays for their health care system with revenues (taxes perhaps?) on North Sea oil. Where’s our cut? We’ve got a lot of that black gold oozing up.


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Offline frank williams

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2019, 02:56:32 PM »
Germany's whirigigs were highly subsidized, are now reaching their 20 yr life span and aren't being replaced at the original rate.  Come to find out .... they kill birds, and the conservationists are upset.  Health care, college .... are lunches free too?

Offline Dennis Moritz

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In case you have not seen this
« Reply #51 on: August 09, 2019, 04:08:25 PM »
How many ways to we subsidize domestic oil production? Fish kill bird kill in the Gulf. Dimly remember something about that. Oil wars fought wherever. Twenty years. Chevys used to last that long. No more Chevy cars I guess made here. Norway got a big cut from their domestic goop. Financed their excellent health care system. So a card carrying conservative says. Imagine that gross infringement on freedom. How do those citizens stand for it. We all know the meaning of freedom, excuse me I mean Freedom. The true meaning of USA Freedom is calculated in deaths by firearm. Thirty-nine thousand per year here. A paltry three or four hundred per country in a typical European Socialist Commie embarrassment. We USA Americans subsidize what counts. Weapons of all kinds that kill people. Yeah. Spend more than the next 23 countries combined. Those pu—y Commie Liberal states.


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Offline frank williams

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #52 on: August 09, 2019, 05:03:54 PM »
I should fall back and argue only the global warming part of the argument and wind turbines, although I don’t think that socialism works.
The need for wind turbines to save the planet as sold by Al Gore is an out and out hoax.  Their science, that shows a global temperature rise due to fossil fuel use,  is bad math and wrong.   Given that, build wind turbines if you like, but don’t make me pay for them.  I love the aerodynamics of the blade shapes, but the politics of it is stressful.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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In case you have not seen this
« Reply #53 on: August 09, 2019, 07:26:23 PM »
45 takes his talking points straight from the folks who lent him all that money. So. Defense against who. Frank I have a computer in my hand of extraordinary power. Smaller than a slice of bread. Twenty years ago there was a Texas Instruments something or other. Kept messing up my typing. All kinds of jets around. And so forth. I paid less for this hand held with gazzilian more ability. A cost effect whirligig yeah we can turn those out. Guess my over 70 year old eyes are sharper than the average birdie who lives or dies by the ability to see. Blades turning a few RPM think I could side step them. Global warming is fact. Peer review Science. 97 percent. Take out the Scientists on Exxon payroll. Agreement even higher. Remove the millionaires paid off by the billionaires a very different obviously convincing point of view. 

Yeah Al Gore. Typical Liberal. Always at a great disadvantage when arguing with you Cunservrtuves


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« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 07:53:40 PM by Dennis Moritz »

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #54 on: August 09, 2019, 07:44:08 PM »
All Liberals under a great handicap when debating folks who make it up as they go along. Stating their pathological lies with such convincing diction. We’re not there. Liberals are handicapped by compassion, empathy willingness to look through another’s point of view. We’re even thinking about the welfare of the person debating us. Can’t bring ourselves to believe utter lack of integrity. We’re also really at a loss when it comes to orgiastic hate fests. Yep. You got us beat there. It’s your intensity of hate, ability to blame the other guy for your short comings and inabilities. Especially blame the struggling people on the margin who can’t stand up to you. Man. I understand there are privileged people in this country who could shoot someone in public, never give it a thought and get away with it. There are even those who would hang in there defending every lie and crime.


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Online Mike Griffin

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2019, 08:38:12 PM »
OK, my original post that started this thread was because I was simply amazed by the sheer size of these things and wanted to share that amazement in case you did not know how huge these things were.  We don't have these things down here so I had no idea how big they were.

Seeing how this thread has morphed into a environmental jousting match and politicized, I have to say I regret even posting it.  This is why I have really become hesitant to post much of anything on here anymore because some people cannot take whatever the subject is at face value and want to twist it to fit whatever their political agenda is. 

I guess it is just a microcosm of where our society is heading.

Don't think I will be posting much of anything anymore.  Sorry it turned out like this.

Mike


Offline Arlan McKee

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2019, 09:44:56 PM »
All Liberals under a great handicap when debating folks who make it up as they go along. Stating their pathological lies with such convincing diction. We’re not there. Liberals are handicapped by compassion, empathy willingness to look through another’s point of view. We’re even thinking about the welfare of the person debating us. Can’t bring ourselves to believe utter lack of integrity. We’re also really at a loss when it comes to orgiastic hate fests. Yep. You got us beat there. It’s your intensity of hate, ability to blame the other guy for your short comings and inabilities. Especially blame the struggling people on the margin who can’t stand up to you. Man. I understand there are privileged people in this country who could shoot someone in public, never give it a thought and get away with it. There are even those who would hang in there defending every lie and crime.


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So we are incompassionate, pathological Liars without integrity.
Got it.

What a self righteous douchebag you are.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2019, 10:17:18 PM »
A Conservative who understands the written word. Often you think we Liberals regard followers of 45 dumb and ignorant. You mistake our attitude. It’s incredulity.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2019, 10:47:31 PM »
Douchbag hmm is that someone who grabs a woman’s privates in public because he can get away with it or walks in on naked sixteen year old girls in his employ or hmm. Not me.


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Offline WR Crane aka MrClean

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2019, 11:54:06 PM »
I remember when they used to talk model airplanes in the Open forum.

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #60 on: August 10, 2019, 01:05:54 AM »
All Liberals under a great handicap when debating folks who make it up as they go along. Stating their pathological lies with such convincing diction. We’re not there. Liberals are handicapped by compassion, empathy willingness to look through another’s point of view. We’re even thinking about the welfare of the person debating us. Can’t bring ourselves to believe utter lack of integrity. We’re also really at a loss when it comes to orgiastic hate fests. Yep. You got us beat there. It’s your intensity of hate, ability to blame the other guy for your short comings and inabilities. Especially blame the struggling people on the margin who can’t stand up to you. Man. I understand there are privileged people in this country who could shoot someone in public, never give it a thought and get away with it. There are even those who would hang in there defending every lie and crime.


Dennis, your arrogance here (and elsewhere) is breathtaking.  You alone have the ability to combine intelligence, empathy, compassion … NOT!  (Complete sentences might better impress us, though - we don’t have your ability to read minds.)

I had a great visit at the South Dakota Air and Space Museum a couple of weeks ago.  With your depth of knowledge, I'm sure you're aware much of that area was basically a seabed many moons ago.

What did those stupid (and obviously conservative) dinosaurs do to drive away the water?

The 1883 eruption of Krakatau is estimated to have put 11 cubic miles of debris into the atmosphere; 165 villages were destroyed, and nearly as many more devastated.  More than 36,000 people died, and average global temperatures were as much as 2 degrees Fahrenheit cooler for the next 5 years.

The eruption of Tambora in 1815 was worse in many ways and led to “the year without summer” (1816).  It is estimated to have thrown 12 cubic miles of gases, dust and rock into the atmosphere.  Much of the world experienced unseasonably cool summers and poor harvests; perhaps as many as 50,000 deaths resulted from the ensuing famine and diseases.  Average global temperatures were reportedly 5 degrees cooler for several years.

There are some suggestions that our very own super volcano - Yellowstone - is overdue for an eruption.  What are you doing to prevent that, Dennis?

I do believe that our actions can affect our earth and atmosphere to some extent.

But suggesting that we can exercise substantial control over earth and the atmosphere is, to me, the epitome of arrogance - and something I might expect to hear from an arrogant liberal.

Perhaps you missed one characteristic many (probably most) of us with a more conservative bent live with, Dennis - hope.  That optimism is surely lacking in your posts.

I’m not gonna live in fear of a terrorist, a volcanic eruption, the hottest July on record here, or the exhaust from the 747 that just flew overhead.  And I suggest those who insist we’ll all be dead in 10 or 12 years if we don’t immediately do this and that might be happier just crawling under a rock.

arrogance: an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions
- Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 02:04:22 AM by AirClassix »
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #61 on: August 10, 2019, 07:03:12 AM »
Arrogance, whatnot? Builder of the model. Unlike some (softhearted Liberals, I guess) who regard 45 as an aberration, I do not. He (it) is a culmination, an image that represents. Republican, Conservative, silence and adulation show how much they love how he (it) looks and flies. 45 is a quintessential Conservative, Republican build.


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Offline Ian MacNeil

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #62 on: August 10, 2019, 10:23:15 AM »

Dennis, sometimes it is worthwhile to consult the experts regarding a matter so please read the following two quotes from the experts:

[quote 1]
IPCC quote March 2019

(SOVEREIGN NATIONS) – A shocking statement was made by United Nations official Christiana Figueres at a news conference in Brussels. Figueres admitted that the Global Warming conspiracy set by the U.N.’s Framework Convention on Climate Change, of which she is the executive secretary, has a goal not of environmental activists to save the world from ecological calamity, but to destroy capitalism. She said very casually:

“This is the first time in the history of mankind that we are setting ourselves the task of intentionally, within a defined period of time, to change the economic development model that has been reigning for at least 150 years, since the Industrial Revolution.”

She even restated that goal ensuring it was not a mistake:

“This is probably the most difficult task we have ever given ourselves, which is to intentionally transform the economic development model for the first time in human history.”

[quote 2]
Following is a quote from Dr. Ottmar Endenhofer
IPCC co-chair of Working Group #3,
November 13, 2010 interview with Dr. Charles Battig

“We [UN-IPCC] redistribute de facto the world’s wealth by climate policy…”
“One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy.
This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy any more…”

Note interview date, November2010.
So as always…. “follow the money”.


Offline Avaiojet

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2019, 01:17:01 PM »
A 2-MW windmill is made of 260tons of steel that required 300tons of iron ore and 170tons of coking coal, all mined, transported and produced by hydrocarbons.

A windmill could spin until it falls apart and never generate as much energy as was invested in building it. And they fall apart quickly.

Not to mention the money.
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #64 on: August 12, 2019, 02:02:24 PM »
Thanks. I thought I was too hard on you guys. Pathological lying 45. Authority for lemmings. You must follow from behind in that case he shows you his rudder.


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Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2019, 03:39:19 PM »
Dennis - Can you please, please, please keep your politics to yourself.  You are not making any points and it clutters Sparky's storage space with useless dribble

Ken


 LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2019, 07:57:29 PM »
Definitely. Love to. Republican talking points are equally cluttering. Keep them away and my button will not be pushed.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2019, 07:30:22 AM »
If members would refrain from knee jerk liberal bashing and spare us hackneyed repub talking points I’d stick to talking about spinning round and round.


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Online Brett Buck

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2019, 07:53:13 AM »
If members would refrain from knee jerk liberal bashing and spare us hackneyed repub talking points I’d stick to talking about spinning round and round. \

  No, you wouldn't, and weren't. You have been sticking your nose into threads just to wreck them for years, and have never added anything useful, since you really don't know anything useful about model airplanes, or politics. You want one-way political discussion, much like many leftists, who spew any nonsense they want and claim it's free speech, but do everything possible to suppress, express outrage, or try to outlaw anything they don't like as "hate speech".

You think you are a genius and and some sort of rhetorical ninja, when you are really like a really angry miniature chihuahua, yapping away ineffectively, while you express your great outrage at anything you don't agree with.  You can almost see the foam and spittle hit the screen.

    I have stayed out of this one because it's entertaining to watch the other posters spin you up, and watch the reaction. You think you are winning, but people are playing you like a fiddle, and you have no idea it's happening! Magnificent!

     Brett

Offline Andre Ming

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2019, 11:25:27 AM »

One needn't look any further than a casual glance at cities and states that have been run by liberal governments for any number of years to see how miserably their philosophies actually perform.

Andre
Searching to find my new place in this hobby!

Offline Dennis Moritz

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In case you have not seen this
« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2019, 11:35:38 AM »
Brother Brett. Your jibes never fail to inspire. Five rejoinders immediately occurred to me. I’ll pass. Liberal Cities. There you go. Cut it out friends and I won’t bother you with my POV. Don’t bother me with yours.


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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2019, 01:23:19 PM »
worth watching....I have seen this stuff myself on the massive turbine farms  here in Texas....when one falls...there it stays...forever....or until 20 years from now, another taxpayer super fund clean up and compensation to the land owner



and by the way this is also factually very very true:

90% of the top 20 Deadliest American Cities are run by Democrats
100% of the top 10 Deadliest Cities in America are… you guessed it: run by Democrats

https://granitegrok.com/blog/2018/07/data-point-the-most-dangerous-cities-in-the-us-are-democrat-run
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #72 on: August 13, 2019, 05:26:09 PM »
worth watching....I have seen this stuff myself on the massive turbine farms  here in Texas....when one falls...there it stays...forever....or until 20 years from now, another taxpayer super fund clean up and compensation to the land owner



and by the way this is also factually very very true:

90% of the top 20 Deadliest American Cities are run by Democrats
100% of the top 10 Deadliest Cities in America are… you guessed it: run by Democrats

https://granitegrok.com/blog/2018/07/data-point-the-most-dangerous-cities-in-the-us-are-democrat-run

I've closely watch Liberal Democrats over 40 years. Believe it or not.

There's been amazing changes in their "organization."

What's interesting is how they all relate to each other, a "bond" if you will, even though their antics are border line criminal. In some cases, criminal.

There are many who claim to be non-Liberal Democrats who demonstrate some of these Liberal ways. A growing issue. "Issue," a better word than problem.

Our Country is in a heap of trouble.
Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline frank williams

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #73 on: August 13, 2019, 05:46:03 PM »
...... A growing issue. "Issue," a better word than problem.
.......

.... like "matter"is a better word than "investigation" ... Lynch to Comey


Offline phil c

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #75 on: September 19, 2019, 12:01:39 PM »
Yeah it’s super smart to laugh at new tech energy sources. Have your yucks. The rest of the world is laughing at us in their rear view mirrors as we become footnotes in history. The America that was. At one time we embraced innovation and new ideas. Welcomed talented people and hardworking people from wherever they came from. We didn’t  have to lie to ourselves about what we are becoming and why.


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Actually, the rest of the world, the 175 or so less-developed lands including China, are laughing.  They are building coal fired plants in job lots because coal is energy dense and cheap.  The plants are cheap to build and they are now building them spread out so the real, poisonous pollution has a chance to spread out.  You remember the pictures of Beijing during the Olympics- dense smog to match London and Pittsburg 70 years ago.  They don't have to do squat for the much ballyhooed "Paris Agreement", except collect some cash from the "developed" countries.

Unfortunately some of our best and brightest have decided, for years now, to get into the political arena around Washington in hopes a catching a trickle(i.e. a billion or so) in their pockets
phil Cartier

Offline qaz049

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #76 on: September 19, 2019, 06:46:32 PM »
Actually, the rest of the world, the 175 or so less-developed lands including China, are laughing.  They are building coal fired plants in job lots because coal is energy dense and cheap.  The plants are cheap to build and they are now building them spread out so the real, poisonous pollution has a chance to spread out.  You remember the pictures of Beijing during the Olympics- dense smog to match London and Pittsburg 70 years ago.  They don't have to do squat for the much ballyhooed "Paris Agreement", except collect some cash from the "developed" countries.

Unfortunately some of our best and brightest have decided, for years now, to get into the political arena around Washington in hopes a catching a trickle(i.e. a billion or so) in their pockets

 None of what you have said is true, not even remotely. Dennis is correct :-)

Offline Arlan McKee

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #77 on: September 19, 2019, 07:25:36 PM »
None of what you have said is true, not even remotely. Dennis is correct :-)
So China is not building coal-fired power plants in their own country as well as other countries?
They don't have plans for more?
China was going to be under the same emission standard as the United states?
Phil is a liar?


Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #78 on: September 19, 2019, 09:40:12 PM »
None of what you have said is true, not even remotely. Dennis is correct :-)

Gee, Thank you!  Though I suspect you referred to the cheery, positive thinker Dennis Moritz …:)

qaz, I have no idea where you find what is "true", but suspect you might do well to change sources.

Earlier in this discussion, I related reading an article - perhaps a year ago - about current living conditions in Manchuria.  Where people are flocking in great numbers to cities to participate in the new economy, fueled by new industries … not only are they building new coal burning plants, the people are using coal to heat their apartments and cook.

What planet are you living on?

Dennis
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline Dan Berry

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #79 on: September 19, 2019, 10:02:43 PM »
If members would refrain from knee jerk liberal bashing and spare us hackneyed repub talking points I’d stick to talking about spinning round and round.


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No, you wouldn't.


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