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Author Topic: In case you have not seen this  (Read 8710 times)

Online Mike Griffin

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In case you have not seen this
« on: August 02, 2019, 05:48:32 AM »
With all the discussion about balsa right now and its use in these windmills, this gives you an idea of how massive these things are.

Mike

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2019, 06:18:42 AM »
With all the discussion about balsa right now and its use in these windmills, this gives you an idea of how massive these things are.

Mike

Here's an interesting read.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/wind-turbines-are-neither-clean-nor-green-and-they-provide-zero-global-energy/

Easy to believe and true, plus this isn't difficult to figure out.
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Offline John Lindberg

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2019, 06:35:16 AM »
The fisherman up near Massachusetts hate the "windmills" because they make so much noise and scare the fish. They are putting up a wind farm there, guess a MacDonalds fish sandwich price will go up, unless the Commies take control and we get price controls, in that case, expect a smaller sandwich, or more filler in the fish patie!  VD~   

Offline JoeJust

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2019, 09:13:44 AM »
We had nearly 600 of these beasts come though our small town. I wrote an article about them, including pictures for the now defunct CLW. The only feedback I got was a denial saying that the story wasn't true.  Now many of these windmills are going dead and now another group of new blades is making its way though our village. Figures.
Joe Just
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Offline Steve_Pollock

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2019, 10:28:44 AM »
The fishermen along the Gulf coast love the oil drilling platforms because they draw fish like a magnet.  More oil, less wind?  Heresy!!!

Offline Tony Drago

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2019, 10:45:08 AM »
We had nearly 600 of these beasts come though our small town. I wrote an article about them, including pictures for the now defunct CLW. The only feedback I got was a denial saying that the story wasn't true.  Now many of these windmills are going dead and now another group of new blades is making its way though our village. Figures.
Joe Just
Goes to show you. Gov't likes to throw good money after bad money.

Offline Tony Drago

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2019, 10:53:38 AM »
I read an article about an island in the Hawaiin chain that had 150 of these wind turbines just sitting there, abandoned and rusting. Seems the company got it's loot from the gummint and quit, took it and ran.

 
Ty. Those turbines are extremely high maintenance. They can not take the stress load those blades put on the turbines. It's a losing proposition all around. The bureaucracy will not admit it is a failed project.

Offline Steven Kientz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2019, 03:26:39 PM »
Fowler Ridge wind farm in northwest Indiana has 200+ wind turbines. I've been by there several times and have only seen 1 or 2 working.
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Online qaz049

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2019, 10:16:12 AM »
Here's an interesting read.

Easy to believe and true, plus this isn't difficult to figure out.

... and the fact that the article's author owns a coal mine is irrelevant?

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2019, 11:40:24 AM »
... and the fact that the article's author owns a coal mine is irrelevant?

Yes, it's irrelevant.

You're not going to believe what I'm about to tell you, but I don't care.

From 2009 and 2010, along with two journalists representing a news paper in LA, We researched windmills. We came to this same conclusion back in late 2010. They are visual and nothing else.

Our conclusion was arrived at long before it was fashionable and long before the article I have posted. Difficult to understand turbine windmill farms are fake. Well, not really fake but they, for the investment and maintenance, the give back was absolutely nothing.

I forgot the exact figure these things cost to manufacture and assemble on location, I'd have to pull my notes because the cost was a variable. $2 to $3 million each back then. My guess, more today because "they" make it so. $4 million plus? Probably.

These things serve no useful purpose on land and pointless, more costly and more maintenance at sea. Ironically, an "outfit," a large conglomeration of corrupt Liberal Democrats, elected to erect a bunch of them "off shore." They work with Public Utilities Commissions.

Just after learning about this, many news stories and all, plenty of them, I contacted a journalists in LA who wrote a "favorable" article on windmills, photo and all. I saw her article at an airport between flights. The article was above the fold.

My initial conversation and immediate research changed everything for this journalists, her point of view and focus was now different and finally on track.

She was fed too much baloney from that industry. It's a big industry. Billion$.

Her editor said, "Run with it!" The three of us did. I fed them research information for one year. She broke the story and the "deal" went sideways. Many lawsuits.  LL~

Incidentally, "someone" did a really good clean up of all the derogatory information published on line at that time about the lawsuits. Gee.

BTW. Yes, I was paid well.  ;D

Ripley's, believe it or not.

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Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2019, 05:14:24 PM »
... and the fact that the article's author owns a coal mine is irrelevant?

Factual truth of a statement doesn't depend on the source.

If I'm not mistaken, windmill farms were sold some years ago on projections which showed them to provide power at costs comparable to nuclear power plants.  One assumption was that each would last 25 years.

Windmill farms are being taken down after 20 years now as we read and write here.  How many nuclear power plants lasted only 20 or 25 years?

Same bill of goods was sold on solar power - in the '70s many received huge tax credits for installing solar panels on their homes.  Which of your neighbors power their homes with solar panels today?

Progress is usually good, but please don't sell us with projections that are, on their surface, obviously misleading.

Dennis
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2019, 08:29:47 PM »
I read an article about an island in the Hawaiin chain that had 150 of these wind turbines just sitting there, abandoned and rusting. Seems the company got it's loot from the gummint and quit, took it and ran.

I'm stopping in Hawaii on the way back from Afghanistan...who has a really big boat...

Online qaz049

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2019, 05:02:01 AM »
Factual truth of a statement doesn't depend on the source.

If I'm not mistaken, windmill farms were sold some years ago on projections which showed them to provide power at costs comparable to nuclear power plants.  One assumption was that each would last 25 years.

Windmill farms are being taken down after 20 years now as we read and write here.  How many nuclear power plants lasted only 20 or 25 years?

Same bill of goods was sold on solar power - in the '70s many received huge tax credits for installing solar panels on their homes.  Which of your neighbors power their homes with solar panels today?

Progress is usually good, but please don't sell us with projections that are, on their surface, obviously misleading.

Dennis, I think that you're wrong :-)

My brother has new solar panels on his house. He say's that they have reduced his electricity bill by two thirds.


Dennis

Offline Ara Dedekian

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2019, 08:40:41 AM »
The fisherman up near Massachusetts hate the "windmills" because they make so much noise and scare the fish.


      A friend getting his PhD in bat studies is working with the manufacturers and environmentalists researching bats vs. turbine blades. It's estimated hundreds of thousands of bats are killed every year in the US by the blades.

      Scared fish, dead birds and bats, lousy engineering, Hmmmm..., not looking good for the panacea of our finite energy resources.

      Ara

Offline Arlan McKee

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2019, 09:15:07 AM »
qaz049 said,
 "My brother has new solar panels on his house. He say's that they have reduced his electricity bill by two thirds."

How many decades before they pay for themselves?


Online qaz049

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2019, 08:13:54 PM »
qaz049 said,
 "My brother has new solar panels on his house. He say's that they have reduced his electricity bill by two thirds."

How many decades before they pay for themselves?

About four years actually.

Online qaz049

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2019, 08:16:15 PM »
      A friend getting his PhD in bat studies is working with the manufacturers and environmentalists researching bats vs. turbine blades. It's estimated hundreds of thousands of bats are killed every year in the US by the blades.

      Scared fish, dead birds and bats, lousy engineering, Hmmmm..., not looking good for the panacea of our finite energy resources.

      Ara

Just two words refute all that garbage, Chernobyl and Fukushima.

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2019, 08:47:23 PM »
I'm stopping in Hawaii on the way back from Afghanistan...who has a really big boat...

 Just buy yourself an oar when you get there, the blade should float.  ;D
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

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Offline phil c

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2019, 07:22:44 PM »
I want to once again thank you all for the contributions you made to the solar panels on our house.  I originally planned a 3.4kW installation.  It was quite expensive, but there was a $7500 Federal rebate which made it doable.  I figured it would pay for itself before the solar panels wore out too much.  A year later, as it was still producing enough power to more or less offset the AC costs we added another row of panel to make it 5.6 kW.

Thanks to the wooly minded thinking of legislators we got another $7500 from the feds, $4500 from PA, and $4500 from the power company(there was a flap about that but the judge said that it was legal the way the law was written.  Now the panels will pay for themselves in another couple years.

To go along with the nonsense PA instituted a 20% renewable energy(oxymoron if there ever was one) mandate for the power companies.  Most of the East coast has a version.  The power company either has to build the plants or buy Renewable Energy Credits to be holy.  As a result we now get more than enough payments every year to pay the total electric bill plus rebates on the power the panels generate.

Thank you all for your support.  I hope more people like most here start voting for some realism!
phil Cartier

Offline Arlan McKee

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2019, 09:07:22 PM »
I want to once again thank you all for the contributions you made to the solar panels on our house.  I originally planned a 3.4kW installation.  It was quite expensive, but there was a $7500 Federal rebate which made it doable.  I figured it would pay for itself before the solar panels wore out too much.  A year later, as it was still producing enough power to more or less offset the AC costs we added another row of panel to make it 5.6 kW.

Thanks to the wooly minded thinking of legislators we got another $7500 from the feds, $4500 from PA, and $4500 from the power company(there was a flap about that but the judge said that it was legal the way the law was written.  Now the panels will pay for themselves in another couple years.

To go along with the nonsense PA instituted a 20% renewable energy(oxymoron if there ever was one) mandate for the power companies.  Most of the East coast has a version.  The power company either has to build the plants or buy Renewable Energy Credits to be holy.  As a result we now get more than enough payments every year to pay the total electric bill plus rebates on the power the panels generate.

Thank you all for your support.  I hope more people like most here start voting for some realism!

I appreciate your position on this, Phil. If anyone should benefit from this waste of my taxes I'm glad it was a fellow modeler.

Offline katana

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2019, 03:08:10 AM »
About four years actually.

Qaz - I think you are trying to convert people who don't actually care! The US is the worlds largest energy consumer per capita - they have vast reserves of coal and oil and gas, so why would they care what happens in the rest of the world? Any country that values cars to the point of providing heated and air conditioned garages for  the storage of them, is strange in the head IMO. People who choose to live in the southern states where air conditioning in houses, garages, work places, workshops, cars in fact just about everywhere is required to make living 'comfortable' rather than live where the climate as a whole is comfortable and doesn't require ten's of Gigawatts of power to artificially condition the world are again strange in the head!
The burning of fossil / carbon based fuels is not an answer, it is the cause of the problem! Burning wood is at best only carbon neutral - growing trees use atmospheric CO2 to grow, burning them releases it! Oil and coal on the other hand is 100's of millions of years worth of trees/plant material, locked away, and is being released when burnt which CANNOT be recycled by planting a few more trees to offset it - certainly not with the rate of deforestation across the globe! The Human species has been around for maybe 10,000 yrs?, been 'civilised' for 4,000, industrialised for 250 and we talk about our 'history' - such a short term view in geologic time when the planet has been around for 4-5 BILLION years and has coped without our intervention quite well but as a 'developing' species we seem to be hell bent on destroying it one way or another! Be aware that the natural world doesn't like imbalance - it will rectify it and there is nothing Homo Sapiens (without radical and total global change) can do will affect that outcome except make like the dinosaurs!
I'm no tree hugger / environmentalist / fruit loop - just a normal joe who see's both sides of the coin! I won't be around (hopefully) when it all goes pear shaped but that doesn't mean I don't care!

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2019, 06:14:48 AM »
Small solar panels work well for home applications. Obviously.

The Government uses people to front the positive use and $ savings return for the average home owner.

This 3rd party expense, sure, tax dollars, but don't forget why they give this money up.

The program is designed to be "positive." This keeps attention to the larger "solar farms" that cost millions and really don't give back enough "created" energy to make them useful. You'll never light a hospital or an airport with either one of these.

Anyone with acres of land can get a "rental" check by letting the land be used for solar panels. It's favorable advertisement.

I remember the first Turbine Windmill in my home state. They planted it next to I-95, plenty of traffic, for political reasons. A showcase. Well, the thing @#$% the bed when the transmission, or some other large part failed.

It was said the part was no longer available because the company folded. "They" did a retro-fit at a ridiculous cost.

Sure, some positive personal uses can save those that participate a few bucks, but as a whole, nationally, large farms, the return isn't worth the payout in tax dollars.

So, how do you fix an industry that's run by those who are out of control? Spending someone else's money is great. Green is in.
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Offline frank williams

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2019, 07:59:54 AM »
Does anyone have any pictures of how the balsa is used in the blades? ...... I see pictures of the molds and finished blades but none of how the balsa might actually be utilized in the blades. 

Online Mike Griffin

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2019, 09:35:08 AM »
Does anyone have any pictures of how the balsa is used in the blades? ...... I see pictures of the molds and finished blades but none of how the balsa might actually be utilized in the blades.

This is a great question Frank.  Would like to know that too.


Mike

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2019, 10:22:01 AM »
Does anyone have any pictures of how the balsa is used in the blades? ...... I see pictures of the molds and finished blades but none of how the balsa might actually be utilized in the blades.

End grain balsa is also used in the construction of fiberglass boats. There are plenty of boats.
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If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline frank williams

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2019, 08:16:33 PM »
I found this .... the balsa is an underlayment to the glass skins.  Don't know if its end grain or linear sheets. 

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2019, 09:03:05 PM »
We build all kinds of ridiculously complicated tech stuff. We design and build huge planes, ships, buildings, whatnot. Have for a long while. Stuff that’s gigantic in size stays working  for years and years. Of course it makes absolute sense to some that a big durable whirligig manufactured for a competitive price is beyond us. Not exactly a brilliant conclusion.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2019, 09:14:05 PM »
Yeah it’s super smart to laugh at new tech energy sources. Have your yucks. The rest of the world is laughing at us in their rear view mirrors as we become footnotes in history. The America that was. At one time we embraced innovation and new ideas. Welcomed talented people and hardworking people from wherever they came from. We didn’t  have to lie to ourselves about what we are becoming and why.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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In case you have not seen this
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2019, 09:24:14 PM »
What do we need balsa for anyway? Carbon fiber and other materials build lighter and way stronger. Even free flight enthusiasts gave up
on the the stuff years back.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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In case you have not seen this
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2019, 09:36:20 PM »
How many rpm does a garden variety jet turbine turn what temperature what load do they endure hour after hour year after year. How big is a super tanker do they turn a propeller at the keister, what diameter is that, what load on those bearings, does it churn in a toxic brew of seawater, rusto super duper? Yeah. A big propeller out there in the wind turning an AC something or other way beyond us. Way beyond us to make it durable at a decent price.


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« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 06:51:38 AM by Dennis Moritz »

Offline Dennis Moritz

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In case you have not seen this
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2019, 09:57:46 PM »
We can use balsa for nostalgia builds. Contest wood bordering on punk not required. Where is the carbon fiber hollow wing for around 250? Even 300 wouldn’t be far off for current top stunt wings. Yeah a wing that won’t warp nearly strong enough to walk on— must be dreaming or European.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2019, 10:02:26 PM »
Convert you. Waste of time. Bye bye.


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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2019, 10:07:37 PM »
I found this .... the balsa is an underlayment to the glass skins.  Don't know if its end grain or linear sheets.

     Look at the sketch again. It says balsa OR foam core. I believe it was reported that the wood is shredded up and mixed with a resin and poured into the mold. That makes more sense considering the shape of the airfoil and the twist in the blade. It's a pretty complex shape. It would take forever and a year to lay up sheet or blocks of balsa with glue, and then work and sand to shape on something that big.
  But Chuck has the best idea! Go out and steal boats! There are plenty out boats out there, he says so! They have balsa in compression on the end grain! We can steal theboats, and trade them to the turbine blade makers for some 4 to 6 pound wood!, Yeah, that's the ticket!!!
  Type at you later,
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Online Mike Scholtes

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2019, 10:13:01 PM »
This prompted me to do some research on how these gigantic blades are built. GE has a plant in Le Harve, France building blades that are 107 meters in length. That's 351 feet long, one blade. The offshore turbine will have three such blades. One turbine will power 16,000 French homes. They seem to have it figured out. I don't understand the anti-science remarks above, as the rest of the world outside the US has made the decision to ditch fossil fuels and substitute solar and wind power, and possibly better-designed nuclear power (which still leaves spent fuel rods to deal with). China, Germany and others are far ahead of us. Why is that?

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2019, 01:11:11 AM »
Dennis, I think that you're wrong :-)

My brother has new solar panels on his house. He say's that they have reduced his electricity bill by two thirds.

Apparently I didn’t make myself clear, so I repeat:

Progress is usually good, but please don't sell us with projections that are, on their surface, obviously misleading.


Early windmill farms were sold on projections that seriously stunk - witness those coming down after 20 years or less.  Huge refundable tax credits were granted to U.S. taxpayers who installed solar panels in the ‘70s.  I doubt those installations were economically feasible without the tac credits and suspect most have been inactive for many years, like those on my in-laws’ house.

I just ask that we consider all impacts that new technology brings with it.

Dennis
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline frank williams

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2019, 05:18:50 PM »
China brings a new coal fueled power plant online every week.  Wind doesn't work without subsidies, no one would build one without the govt dollars.  Solar would be nice, but its not gonna happen in our time.  .... and .... CO2 isn't a pollutant, and even though the global temp changes, its not man's fault.  The sad thing is that its easily researched that there is only one paper that relates a change in global temp to the industrial revolution .... and its been shown to be in error and a hoax.  Good news .... we've got plenty of natural gas and oil.

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2019, 05:49:01 PM »
Yeah it’s super smart to laugh at new tech energy sources. Have your yucks. The rest of the world is laughing at us in their rear view mirrors as we become footnotes in history. The America that was. At one time we embraced innovation and new ideas. Welcomed talented people and hardworking people from wherever they came from. We didn’t  have to lie to ourselves about what we are becoming and why.



Seems someone was having a very bad day, I hope today is better.

Dennis, I don't mind anyone laughing at me - I'm 75% Norwegian and love making fun of "us", there's a lot to laugh at in my case especially!

But to be serious - Australia is asking to tap into U.S. Reserves; seems the country - especially South Australia - has been hell-bent on tearing down plants powered by coal, and in the meantime let their oil & gas reserves dip to just a 30-day supply.  ("Australia Looks to Siphon U.S. Oil Stockpile to Avoid Running Out of Gas" - Wall Street Journal, TODAY).

I'm not laughing - Australia is an important ally, and we should only be wishing them the best.  But I doubt they would be laughing at us while asking to share our reserves …

Even the most die-hard advocates of wind & solar energy should, at this point, acknowledge the new technology can't meet all of our needs, all of the time.

The future will hopefully be brighter.

Dennis
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2019, 05:52:08 PM »
... and the fact that the article's author owns a coal mine is irrelevant?

I looked up Matt Ridley and grazed through Wikipedia's summary of him. Didn't see anything about him owning a coal mine. Would you please point out where it says that he does?   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Ridley

There are a few "wind farms" here also, and they're almost never doing anything. One or maybe two of dozens might be gently rotating, while the rest do not. Here, anyway, the owners apparently don't do any maintenance….the bearings are known to be inadequately sized, and when they go bad, the generator section often catches fire. Out here in Western USA, that's bad news, just like in Aussie.   y1 Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2019, 05:56:40 PM »
Lotsa sun in Australia.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2019, 05:59:50 PM »
Guess the French can do what your neighbors can’t. (Doubt it)


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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In case you have not seen this
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2019, 06:04:31 PM »
Ugly naked guy chopping ice. What. On the other hand their government run health care and education systems, tip top.


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Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2019, 06:45:14 PM »
Ugly naked guy chopping ice. What. On the other hand their government run health care and education systems, tip top.


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Yup!  Great economy - Norway's modern manufacturing and welfare system rely on a financial reserve produced by exploitation of natural resources, particularly North Sea oil.

You like that stuff, right Moritz?  Who needs solar or wind turbines!?!
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2019, 08:42:49 PM »
This prompted me to do some research on how these gigantic blades are built. GE has a plant in Le Harve, France building blades that are 107 meters in length. That's 351 feet long, one blade. The offshore turbine will have three such blades. One turbine will power 16,000 French homes. They seem to have it figured out. I don't understand the anti-science remarks above, as the rest of the world outside the US has made the decision to ditch fossil fuels and substitute solar and wind power, and possibly better-designed nuclear power (which still leaves spent fuel rods to deal with). China, Germany and others are far ahead of us. Why is that?

"Necessity is the mother of invention".

Mike, I think at least part of the answer is a simple everyday word: need.  Meaning we need a reason to adopt new technology and economic justification.

I can easily remember when our air was "cleaner".  When I first traveled to California in the early '60s, I swore I'd never live where there was so much smog.  Driving toward Minneapolis one morning in the late '70s, I realized it caught up with me.

I read an article about Manchuria about a year ago.  People in that country are basically all migrating to large, crowded cities, living in huge apartment buildings, and burning tons of coal - even for heat and cooking.  And it shows … I would never want children to grow up in the resulting environment.

China has a HUGE problem - Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) affects 8.6% of the adult population, or almost 100 million people.

If that doesn't spell out a need for major change right now, I don't know what would.
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2019, 09:02:11 PM »
  I wonder if anyone has ever done a study of how all these solar panels that are aimed at the sun affect the temps in the upper atmosphere? Look how much damage you can do with a small, dime store magnifying glass if held the right way? All of that bright sunlight bouncing off the panels, and probably even getting magnified in the process, for 12 hours each sunny day. It may sound far fetched until you think about the people that have cooked themselves to death by lining their beach chairs with aluminum foil to hurry their tan along, fall asleep, and then never wake up!. That only takes a few hours. There must not be any sizable money in it for anybody to research it.
   And how about low level wind patterns being screwed up by windmills that are or are not turning? There are stretches of these farms that are 20 miles or more long near the interstates. That's not as far fetched as cow farts causing global warming!!  I have even read that someone was granted to study termite farts as part of what adds the methane to the atmosphere! I didn't read how they determined that termites fart!
   And I'll NEVER forget the scientists claiming the the 60's and 70's that the world will be COMPLETELY out of oil by the year 2000! I guess some one forgot to tell the dinosaurs that are buried deep in the earth that they were supposed to quit farting natural gas and peeing crude oil by then!
    The world turns on an axis that is powered by and lubricated by oil and gas, always has and always will.
   Type at you later,
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Offline Tony Drago

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2019, 10:01:10 PM »
Makes a lot of sense.  Cooking the atmosphere from  top and the bottom. Not good...

Offline JoeJust

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2019, 09:30:53 AM »
Boeing was the first to try wind mills in WA State. They had two or there of them built near  Goldendale where the wind ALWAYS BLOWS EVERY DAY!  After a good length of time they tore the windmills down and walked away from the wind mill industry because there was no way it could ever be profitable!
   Now with the State Government launching the weirdest climate laws there are a couple of thousand of these useless fans in Eastern WA, most just diddling around and nobody makes any money except the land owners who gave up the crap shoot of farming for an annual step up to he government teat!
Ever wonder why now windmills are never built near huge populations of tree huggers?
Joe
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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2019, 10:35:46 AM »
About 2 minutes in starts the infusing of the balsa blocking.

Evansville, IN & Orlando, FL

Offline Bruce Shipp

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2019, 11:29:38 AM »
From the Aug 6, 2019 Wall Street Journal

 

If You Want ‘Renewable Energy,’ Get Ready to Dig

By

Mark P. Mills

Aug. 5, 2019 6:48 pm ET

Democrats dream of powering society entirely with wind and solar farms combined with massive batteries. Realizing this dream would require the biggest expansion in mining the world has seen and would produce huge quantities of waste.

“Renewable energy” is a misnomer. Wind and solar machines and batteries are built from nonrenewable materials. And they wear out. Old equipment must be decommissioned, generating millions of tons of waste. The International Renewable Energy Agency calculates that solar goals for 2050 consistent with the Paris Accords will result in old-panel disposal constituting more than double the tonnage of all today’s global plastic waste. Consider some other sobering numbers:

A single electric-car battery weighs about 1,000 pounds. Fabricating one requires digging up, moving and processing more than 500,000 pounds of raw materials somewhere on the planet. The alternative? Use gasoline and extract one-tenth as much total tonnage to deliver the same number of vehicle-miles over the battery’s seven-year life.

When electricity comes from wind or solar machines, every unit of energy produced, or mile traveled, requires far more materials and land than fossil fuels. That physical reality is literally visible: A wind or solar farm stretching to the horizon can be replaced by a handful of gas-fired turbines, each no bigger than a tractor-trailer.

Building one wind turbine requires 900 tons of steel, 2,500 tons of concrete and 45 tons of nonrecyclable plastic. Solar power requires even more cement, steel and glass—not to mention other metals. Global silver and indium mining will jump 250% and 1,200% respectively over the next couple of decades to provide the materials necessary to build the number of solar panels, the International Energy Agency forecasts. World demand for rare-earth elements—which aren’t rare but are rarely mined in America—will rise 300% to 1,000% by 2050 to meet the Paris green goals. If electric vehicles replace conventional cars, demand for cobalt and lithium, will rise more than 20-fold That doesn’t count batteries to back up wind and solar grids.

Last year a Dutch government-sponsored study concluded that the Netherlands’ green ambitions alone would consume a major share of global minerals. “Exponential growth in [global] renewable energy production capacity is not possible with present-day technologies and annual metal production,” it concluded.

The demand for minerals likely won’t be met by mines in Europe or the U.S. Instead, much of the mining will take place in nations with oppressive labor practices. The Democratic Republic of the Congo produces 70% of the world’s raw cobalt, and China controls 90% of cobalt refining. The Sydney-based Institute for a Sustainable Future cautions that a global “gold” rush for minerals could take miners into “some remote wilderness areas [that] have maintained high biodiversity because they haven’t yet been disturbed.”

What’s more, mining and fabrication require the consumption of hydrocarbons. Building enough wind turbines to supply half the world’s electricity would require nearly two billion tons of coal to produce the concrete and steel, along with two billion barrels of oil to make the composite blades. More than 90% of the world’s solar panels are built in Asia on coal-heavy electric grids.

Engineers joke about discovering “unobtanium,” a magical energy-producing element that appears out of nowhere, requires no land, weighs nothing, and emits nothing. Absent the realization of that impossible dream, hydrocarbons remain a far better alternative than today’s green dreams.

Mr. Mills is a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute and a partner in Cottonwood Venture Partners, an energy-tech venture fund, and author of the recent report, “The ‘New Energy Economy’: An Exercise in Magical Thinking.”
Appeared in the August 6, 2019, print edition.

Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2019, 12:10:43 PM »
Bruce, great post. But there you go trying to inject reason and logic, not to mention actual science, into a purely emotion/guilt driven argument.  Convince enough of these people that "clean energy" is needed to save the planet and they won't think twice to fire up a tractor and dig a hole in a forest the size of Vermont to get the "green" materials.
We are not dealing with rational people.

Gary
Profanity is the crutch of the illiterate mind

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: In case you have not seen this
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2019, 01:40:18 PM »
16,000 homes one wind powered whirligig. The rare minerals can be recycled. Lots of empty space in the USA. Germany somehow manages to have days where all electric is powered by renewables. People live a lot longer there. Also. In fact their life expectancy is on the rise. USA dying younger and younger. German government run health care rates much better than ours. Half the cost. Free college. Damn liberals valuing education. Free even for Americans who wish to switch. Wow. Norway pays for their health care system with revenues (taxes perhaps?) on North Sea oil. Where’s our cut? We’ve got a lot of that black gold oozing up.


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