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Offline Motorman

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« on: January 25, 2017, 09:08:42 PM »
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« Last Edit: March 03, 2022, 11:03:42 AM by Motorman »
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Offline Larry Fernandez

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2017, 09:31:24 PM »
What are the basic differences between an Impact and a Thundergazer? I've made a couple of Thundergazers and I wanted to make an Impact but looking at pictures there doesn't seem to be much difference except ones bigger. I'd be scaling it down to 40 size anyway so is it worth the difference?

Thanks,
MM

I have had the pleasure of judging many flights by Dave with his ThunderGazer and Paul and Howard flying Impacts.
so I can honestly say, that no matter which one you build, can put you in the winnners circle.

These two planes have won more big events than you can imagine.
I would add that Teds Trivial Pursuit, Brett's Infinity and Randy's SV-11 would also be winners in anybody's book.
(Truth be told I'm currently building two ThunderGazers and a Trivial pursuit as we speak)

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team


 

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2017, 09:52:25 PM »
Yup.

The Impact is .40 size.  It was designed for a .40 and has done OK with .40s.
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2017, 10:02:05 PM »
   It ain't necessarily the airplane. I can boil down to the nut on the handle. Especially when you "scale them down", as this changes things.
    There is a saying about guys like David and Paul, and Howard and Brett:

      "He can take his'n, and beat your'n, and then take your'n and beat his'n!"

    A lot of guys are under the impression that there is one airplane that can make their scores jump 200 points. But just having the airplane won't do it, and truth be told, some could do it with one of the airplanes they already have. Pick a design you are comfortable with, and keep trying to improve THAT airplane and your score will improve also. If you are just beginning to get a design figured out, but get distracted by the Super Belchfire model that someone else just won a contest with, you are just starting over from scratch.

       Thundergazer, Impact, pick one. Then stick with it until you have worn out 5 of them and their power plants. Then get back to us with the results!

   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2017, 10:10:54 PM »
What are the basic differences between an Impact and a Thundergazer? I've made a couple of Thundergazers and I wanted to make an Impact but looking at pictures there doesn't seem to be much difference except ones bigger. I'd be scaling it down to 40 size anyway so is it worth the difference?

     Both are already 40-sized and will fly well with a 40VF, the Impact/40VF having proven to be completely unbeatable in Nationals competition, are recently as 2005 against an array of other big-block airplanes. The Thundergazer is much smaller and would have been flown with a baffle-piston 40 or 46, any sort of competitive engine will make it sit up and talk. And there is no stunt engine that is drastically better or more reliable than a 40VF.

    Note that scaling down airplanes doesn't really work the way you would want. Some things scale, and others don't (like the tail moment).

      Brett

Offline Jim Hoffman

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2017, 07:28:56 AM »
I’d like to emphasize Dan McEntee’s comment.  Both designs are superb.  The differences one will see in individual model performance is the result of:

1.   build accuracy and stiffness
2.   flight trim
3.   power train

The difference between the better designs is small compared to 1, 2 and 3. 

Jim Hoffman

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2017, 09:41:52 AM »
Ok, so there's not enough difference to justify tooling up to make a different plane, got it. That's good news actually.

On scaling down I went from 630 sq. in. to 575 sq. in. so it fits in my car. What does that do to the tail moment, too long too short?

Thanks,
MM

   Too short, probably.

   To take something like the already-small Thundergazer, scale it down however, put on an erzatz engine that is vastly less effective, is really just eyeballing a new design. You would do better to start with a Nobler wing and adjust that, and make the fuselage look like a Thundergazer. Same with an Impact, The Dirt did that something like that for a 25FP.

    You design airplanes around the engine, or a type of engine. If you have a piped 40, you want the something in the range of size of the original airplanes. If you have something else, then you need a different airplane, not just a smaller one. I have an opinion on which might be better overall, which I will not choose to share here, but it doesn't really matter, when you plan to build something completely different from either.

     Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2017, 10:49:04 AM »
On scaling down I went from 630 sq. in. to 575 sq. in. so it fits in my car. What does that do to the tail moment, too long too short?

So, instead of solving the problem by crippling the airplane, build a take-apart Thundergazer or Impact.  It doesn't add too much weight, and you're already an experienced metalworker so there should be little puzzlement there.  If you can fit a 575 sq-in Thundergazer into your car, you can make a full-sized Impact and just take off the outer wing panel.  You shouldn't need to make the tail assembly take-apart, so the extra build time will be minimal.
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2017, 06:07:17 PM »
    And there is no stunt engine that is drastically better or more reliable than a 40VF.


      Brett

And there you go again, promoting a motor that NOBODY uses anymore, as the greatest thing ever. ;-)

Derek

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2017, 06:43:45 PM »
And there you go again, promoting a motor that NOBODY uses anymore, as the greatest thing ever. ;-)

      Hey, we were talking about *40-sized models*, so it did seem relevant. And bear in mind, I have used, or at least attempted to use, *all* the likely alternatives. It's the king until someone beats it:


Place   Category   Full Name   Location   Score
1   O   PAUL WALKER   DEER PARK, WA   1136.00
2   O   DAVID L FITZGERALD   NAPA, CA   1130.00
3   O   TERRY G FANCHER   FOSTER CITY, CA   1124.67
4   O   RICHARD A OLIVER   IOLA, TX   1122.33
5   O   JAMES R SMITH   LILBURN, GA   1102.67

and in the spirit of full disclosure:

(59)   O   BRETT W BUCK   SUNNYVALE, CA     DNF (crash Tuesday afternoon)

    The very worst thing about this is that Bob Dixon, by virtue of the alphabet, was *58*.

      Brett

Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2017, 06:53:16 PM »
Ok, so there's not enough difference to justify tooling up to make a different plane, got it. That's good news actually.

On scaling down I went from 630 sq. in. to 575 sq. in. so it fits in my car. What does that do to the tail moment, too long too short?

Thanks,
MM

So it will fit in your car?  I know for a fact that Paul Walker drove his Acura TSX to Muncie with his full size Impact and a smaller classic model for Don McClave.  Howard manages his Impact in his Prius along with whatever Mary Lou may have purchased.  Paul and I drove to Madera Ca. from Seattle in my wife's KIA Forte with two full size stunters and my Chizzler.  In this case the big ones were take apart, but there was two of us for four days with luggage and model supplies.  Chopping proven designs for that reason is a bad idea.  If you want a smaller airplane, build one.  At 610 sq. in. an Oriental Plus is great for the ubiquitous LA .46.  Randy's Shrike and Satona designs also might fit your criteria.  All of the above advice is accurate.
Mike

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2017, 06:55:02 PM »
  .........

    The very worst thing about this is that Bob Dixon, by virtue of the alphabet, was *58*.

      Brett


HHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!    :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

That is funny!!
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 08:17:03 PM by Doug Moon »
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2017, 08:05:00 PM »
I think it is pretty safe to say the Impact is NOT a typical 40 sized model.  It will not fly with a muffled LA 40 or similar motor of size, weight, and power. At 700 square inches it will most likely be severely tail heavy and way under powered.

The VF 40 was a true 40 displacement but that is about it.  It has the weight of a PA 65 and is designed to spin some pretty major RPMs.

I think it is important to note when specifying that model as a 40 size that the 40 used was comparable in weight to today's 65s and will need to use a pipe and the RPM will be very high.

Oh and let's not forget about the availability of said motor as well, pretty much nil.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 09:03:46 PM by Doug Moon »
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2017, 09:50:38 PM »
Well it's a truck and I put the planes in the rear of the cab. Have to get a cap for the bed or something. My 40's are Brodak 40's is anyone running one of those on a 700 sq in plane? I looked around the net for an OS 40/46 VF no joy. What makes them so different?

MM 

My answer would be no to your specific question, but I fly an 800 sq in plane with an OS 52 four stroke. I'd feel comfortable flying that with an OS 46 LA. (Profile and weighs in at approx 57-58 oz ready to fly )


To everyone else,
With the difficulty of finding the OS 40 VF, is the K&B 6.5 a reasonable alternative? It's heavy, RE for a pipe,  spins a high RPM. I'm not planning on trying it, just throwing it out there for discussion since I'm working on a couple for speed now.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2017, 10:07:10 PM »
Well it's a truck and I put the planes in the rear of the cab. Have to get a cap for the bed or something. My 40's are Brodak 40's is anyone running one of those on a 700 sq in plane? I looked around the net for an OS 40/46 VF no joy. What makes them so different?

   The 40VF uses a tuned pipe and is much more effective as a stunt engine than a Brodak 40. Derek will get irritated again, but if anyone asked me what engine to start with for a competition program, and they didn't have a lot of help, I would still recommend the 40VF, because the engines are all about the same and the setups available are the most bulletproof of all current engines no matter what or how much you spend on it. Other engines might have some better characteristics and certainly more power capability (which is why I don't use them anymore, either), but as far as reliable and repeatable, nothing has ever been much better.

     I would not use a Brodak 40 in either an Impact or a Thundergazer. It has the power of a very strong old-style 35. That's why you can't use engine size alone to determine the type of airplane, i.e. you pick the engine first, then design the airplane to match. Of course you won't end up with a world-class competitive performance no matter what airplane you build for it (which is why others use other engines  - the 40VF has won about 5-6 NATS and a WC and dozens and dozens of other contests against all comers). But you can certainly build a very nice and good-flying airplane with it, probably as good or better than anything before about 1988.

    Instead of attempting to scale one or the other down, I would suggest something like the Vector 40 or something similar, which is closer to what you want already. Make it look like whichever you like using a different fin and turn the canopy around the right way instead of backwards, for goodness sake. The design differences between that and any other competent modern airplane are more a matter of preference. Recall the other discussion - the overall design makes MUCH less difference than the construction/workmanship/trim variations.

    If you want to go further,  extend the tail an inch, make the tail the same overall area but reduce the aspect ratio of the tail to about 4.5:1 with a 65-35 split. Make the tail airfoil a "arc" airfoil that is about 3/8" thick at the max, and a LE radius of about 1/16". Use a 4" bellcrank and geometrically corrected control horns, etc. Make the flaps removable. If you like the look, add a turtledeck like the Nobler/Impact/Infinity. There, you have an Infinity Jr, for the most part, and it will be close enough to an Impact to pass, if you shape the tips of everything accordingly. The only real remaining difference would be the flaps. The basic Vector 40 has partial-span flaps with more taper than I would use. The Impact flap area would be proportionally larger than the Infinity but we both have less taper. The Thundergazer flaps are much narrow than either (almost like the first Infinity which  almost no one here saw) which in turn is more-or-less off the same setup sheet as the Imitation. I much prefer full-span flaps as far as performance goes, if not the appearance. It is much more effective in terms of lift generated per hinge moment to put narrower flaps across the full span than the same area with partial span flaps, and the differential interaction between the moving and fixed sections can sometimes cause difficult trim issues (particularly if you use them for ailerons).

    The Impact, Thundergazer, Trivial Pursuit, and Infinity all use much lower aspect ratio stabilizers than the Vector/SV series, and I think that this is a big part of why they turn like they do. This is largely us copying or "becoming inspired by" Gid Adkisson's "Bud Light" Lazer, which always came out of corners like it was rolling across a pool table, and had a very thin (1/4") externally-braced flat stab with a very low aspect ratio. But plenty of people have used the high-aspect ratio tails with success.

   There, that's a quick "core dump" of the approach I would take (and have taken, with the Infinity Jr that I have drawings for but have not built the airplane - for the last 14 years...).

      Brett

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2017, 10:09:00 PM »
My answer would be no to your specific question, but I fly an 800 sq in plane with an OS 52 four stroke. I'd feel comfortable flying that with an OS 46 LA. (Profile and weighs in at approx 57-58 oz ready to fly )


To everyone else,
With the difficulty of finding the OS 40 VF, is the K&B 6.5 a reasonable alternative? It's heavy, RE for a pipe,  spins a high RPM. I'm not planning on trying it, just throwing it out there for discussion since I'm working on a couple for speed now.

  Not a substitute. All the variations on 40-sized piped engines have been tried, but only a few ever had reliable setups from people who knew what they were doing.

      There are plenty of 40VFs around, rusting in various people's workshop cabinets. Finding workable props is a far bigger problem, since the preferred 11.3-4.25 Bolly (cut down from an 11.75-4.25) hasnt been available for years, and no one with the requisite knowledge appears to have searched out a substitute.

     Brett

Online Brent Williams

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2017, 01:14:33 AM »
Hi Brett, hopefully this doesn't throw the thread too far off topic.  In a few other threads, you have referenced Gid Adkisson's "Bud Light" Lazer when the topic of tail aspect ratio is discussed.  I was curious, so to google I roamed.  Perhaps the visual reference will help folks.

I see the Laser's 21% wing/tail area percentage is bit smaller than your usual 24-26% recommendations.  

LAZER-Gid Adkisson   AMA Plan # 590
-Wing Span-----63"
-Wing Area-----740 sq. in.
-Stab. Area----158 sq. in.
-Flap to elev.--19 7/8"
-Weight:Take Apart-70-75 oz / 1 piece-67-72 oz.
-Engine on original---ST .60

« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 03:18:46 AM by Brent Williams »
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Offline Walter Hicks

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2017, 11:05:32 AM »
I have friends in Central Ca that have gone from the VF 46 TO VF.40 and say it is better!!!! And Yes the Laser does turn well, even if they are heavy Gid
could never get his below 80 oz except for the one he used Monokote on. So do not be deceived the VF .40 does indeed fly Impact etc, etc very well
with the correct pipe and prop.

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2017, 11:27:05 AM »
The  STARIS  ,  THE   SATONA, and The  SHRIKE  ARE ALL   640  sq inch  stunt ships that can be piped  40s, ( designed around the PA 40)  or can, and have been flown  with  OS LA  46 , ST 51, OS  VF  40 46, SF 40  46 , and a host of other  engines, it is  near 3 inch smaller  span at 57.5 inch , and they fly very well, as shown by many top 5 places
Same with the   Standard  first Vector  at 630  sq in.
There is also a several planes  that fit this size

Randy

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2017, 12:31:09 PM »
The  STARIS  ,  THE   SATONA, and The  SHRIKE  ARE ALL   640  sq inch  stunt ships that can be piped  40s, ( designed around the PA 40)  or can, and have been flown  with  OS LA  46 , ST 51, OS  VF  40 46, SF 40  46 , and a host of other  engines, it is  near 3 inch smaller  span at 57.5 inch , and they fly very well, as shown by many top 5 places
Same with the   Standard  first Vector  at 630  sq in.
There is also a several planes  that fit this size

Randy

I have a PA 51 in my 66oz Staris and it flies awesome! I have posted 580 point patterns with the overweight airplane, and can only imagine how well it would fly if it was 10 ounces lighter.  This series of airplanes are incredible for a smaller 40 size airplane.  I wouldn't hesitate to build another one of these airplanes in the future.
Matt Colan

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2017, 12:49:24 PM »
I was really just interested in the difference between the two designs.

Too late now!!!

<snip>

I think it's funny that some say as soon as you scale down a world class plane suddenly it won't fly as good as a Nobler or Oriental. I've built two 92% Thundergazers and they're the best flying planes I've got. My other planes are Flight streak, Ringmaster, Sig Banshee, Brodak Tanager, Humongous and my mini Thundergazers are definitely not bad, at least I'm having fun with them.

The point that people are trying to make isn't that a scaled-down Thundergazer won't be better than all those other planes -- the point is that it won't be as good as the best plane that size could be.  Since there are planes that are already that size and really good, why not start there?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 06:05:37 PM by Tim Wescott »
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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2017, 01:43:04 PM »
A scaled down currently competitive design would probably still be a great plane, overall.   From this and his other posts, I really don't think Motorman is trying to crack the code for a new worldbeater.   
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2017, 08:43:41 PM »
I see the Laser's 21% wing/tail area percentage is bit smaller than your usual 24-26% recommendations.  


   But note the aspect ratio of the stab/elevator. As usual, Paul Walker was ahead of the rest of us in applying it to other airplanes.

     Brett

Offline John Lindberg

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2017, 07:39:37 AM »
Considering PA's are not available anymore, at least in the below 75 size, the OS 40VF is a practical alternative, mine justs keeps on running, but like Brett says, it doesn't like air leaks.  H^^

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2017, 03:22:28 PM »
Isn't the usual progression to build and crash trainer planes then build bigger and better planes and then you move up the ranks and build a state of the art plane then finally you design your own plane and start winning major events. I've only flown intermediate once, I think my 92% ThunderGazer profile is appropriate at my stage of development.

OK, fine, yes.  A 92% Thundergazer profile will probably not hold you back.  If East-coast intermediate is like West-coast intermediate, then you'd probably do fine with a Sig Skyray if you're still crashing all the time (my feeling is that if you're crashing a lot you just shouldn't bother with flaps: they're good for some points, but almost never enough to bump you up a position in Intermediate.  Once you can build a plane with confidence that it'll stay together, use flaps).
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Offline John Lindberg

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2017, 08:08:23 AM »
There was a post concerning the kit airfoil verses a Bob Hunt Lost Foam airfoil of the ThunderGazer a few years ago, apparently they are not the same. I ordered a foam wing from Johnny Duncan and used the shucks (the outer part of the cut foam block) as a form to build my ThunderGazer, it worked great! I cut out the wing plans and set them on the foam shucks, used wax paper, and built the wing that way. Bob Hunt can tell you about it, if you call him, I imagine.  /DV   

Offline Rich Perry

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2017, 12:31:36 PM »
Considering PA's are not available anymore, at least in the below 75 size, the OS 40VF is a practical alternative, mine justs keeps on running, but like Brett says, it doesn't like air leaks.  H^^

It would seem the .40 VF is not available anymore either!   n~

Offline John Lindberg

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2017, 01:39:27 PM »
They show up on Ebay, and other Classified sites, from time to time. The last 40VF I purchased came from Ebay, $100.00, brand new in the box.   :!

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2017, 02:16:02 PM »
What are you doing in Albuquerque?  Aren't you supposed to be in the Tidewater?
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2017, 04:08:45 PM »
Yes, Seems I remember that. Makes me wonder what happened. Did they just develop a new airfoil after the kit was made or did someone put their own spin on the design.

MM 

Cox had the solution all along. Rock solid stunting.

Offline Rich Perry

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2017, 07:03:42 PM »
They show up on Ebay, and other Classified sites, from time to time. The last 40VF I purchased came from Ebay, $100.00, brand new in the box.   :!

Well I suppose a PA might show up on there as well right?

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2017, 05:00:47 PM »
That is really cool.  What is the weight?  Wingspan?
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https://stunthanger.com/smf/brent-williams'-fancher-handles-and-cl-parts/ted-fancher's-precision-pro-handle-kit-by-brent-williams-information/

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2017, 05:30:52 PM »

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2017, 09:05:40 AM »
MM

That is one beautiful model

Time to get out and slime it up...grin
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

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Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Impact vs Thundergazer
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2017, 07:21:19 AM »
Quote
What are you doing in Albuquerque?  Aren't you supposed to be in the Tidewater?

Howard:

He's not in the Tidewater either.  He's over in West By-God (but he can't play the banjo, so that doesn't make any sense.)  He does the Albuquerque thing because he thinks it throws the revenuers off his scent or something like that.  Who knows?  He spends his time buying VF-40s and building over-weight Star-Gazers... ;D

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