Igor Panchenko and the Mars Helicopter

[Brett Buck]

Here is a drone we can all approve of!

  Most of are aware of the Mars helicopter (to be tested in the next few days). What you might not be aware of is that SoCal stunt flier and occasional poster Igor Panchenko was heavily involved with building it!  Igor works for AeroVironment (Paul MacCready of Gossamer Condor fame's company) AMA Air and the VOA both had segments about it:

AMA Air


Ukrainian Service VOA
https://ukrainian.voanews.com/a/window-on-america-vikno-v-ameryku-1418/5838441.html

   This thing is going to fly on Mars, first attempt planned for Sunday (with movie potentially to follow). Of course it is entirely autonomous because there's no way to control it, it takes radio signals 20ish minutes to get there). Bear in mind, the atmospheric pressure is something less than *1%* of sea level earth, and equivalent density altitude of something like *90,000* feet. Very few aircraft of any type have ever actually flown using aerodynamic lift at these sorts of altitudes, and then it was the A-12/SR-71 at Mach 3+. Balloons have gone that high, and some aircraft have flown through ballistically in "zoom" climbs. The highest-flying helicopter on earth have a service ceiling of about 35,000 and most are far lower. This is the equivalent of 3x Mount Everest! 

     It is an amazing amount of skill, knowledge, and work to even get to the point of flying a space mission of any type, much less soft-landing on another body, driving around, dropping a helicopter, and test-flying it on Mars. Most people can't really imagine how much goes into it. I *do* know, and knowing that just makes it more amazing!


Here is Igor with a (dev/qual/backup/vacuum chamber test?) model:





and here it is on Mars (taken from the Perseverance rover yesterday after a spinup test; NASA):



Brett

[Dan McEntee]

  Recently some one here posted some info regarding this and some video, or maybe I saw a Youtube video, I don't remember, but it was really amazing. The noise the thing makes when they spin it was crazy. Turning some unbelievable RPM. Keeping my fingers crossed for su8ccessful flights!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Mike Griffin]

Brett thank you posting this.  Any information I can find on this mission is very much appreciated.  I will never get bored with our quest to explore other worlds.  It holds a kidlike fascination for me, always has, always will.

My only regret is that I will probably not live long enough to see us put a man on Mars.  We all got to see the moon landing and this was the next logical step in the long run.  I know we will get there and I wish I would be here to see it.

Carl Sagan must be smiling from up above.

Mike

[PJ Rowland]

Excellent work.

Will it do a 5 ft radius on mars? That would be cool.

[Avaiojet]

Why not just use a helium balloon as the lifting system?

[Steve Fitton]

Why not just use a helium balloon as the lifting system?

Balloons do not have much lift at the equivalent of 100,000 feet atmospheric density.
 

[Tim Just]

In the mid 70’s Dale Reed was working on a hydrazine powered airplane to fly as part of a Mars mission.  It’s exciting to see early pioneers dreams come true.

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news/NewsReleases/2005/05-13.html#.YHOiMBBHafA

[Fredvon4]

For Charles:

Not too hard to find and briefly read NASAs program for this and follow on air flight on Mars missions.
A balloon does not meet the goals of these experiment and proof of concept/test of equipment missions

[Doug Moon]

AMAZING!!!

Did they get any video of it?

[Mike Griffin]

I read where they postponed the flight until Wednesday.  They turned in on and the blades did turn but for some reason they decided to wait a couple of days before launching it.

Mike

[Brett Buck]

I read where they postponed the flight until Wednesday.  They turned in on and the blades did turn but for some reason they decided to wait a couple of days before launching it.

    They had some sort of self-protection timeout, that it, it keeps a timer that runs during events and if something takes too long, it halts the sequence. I have no connection with this mission whatsoever, but this is a typical self-protection process where a sequence progress is based on measured data. You stack up all the worst-case times of each event, add them together, add 10%, and then have a timer run and check it against the worst-case time. If it times out, then it probably got stuck at some point in the sequence waiting for some condition to be met, it never was, so it got stuck. There are a lot of variants on the idea, I have no idea what exactly what happened.

    A *common* issue is that you set the time too short, i.e. your "worst case", isn't.

    Brett

[Mike Griffin]

    They had some sort of self-protection timeout, that it, it keeps a timer that runs during events and if something takes too long, it halts the sequence. I have no connection with this mission whatsoever, but this is a typical self-protection process where a sequence progress is based on measured data. You stack up all the worst-case times of each event, add them together, add 10%, and then have a timer run and check it against the worst-case time. If it times out, then it probably got stuck at some point in the sequence waiting for some condition to be met, it never was, so it got stuck. There are a lot of variants on the idea, I have no idea what exactly what happened.

    A *common* issue is that you set the time too short, i.e. your "worst case", isn't.

    Brett

Thank you Brett.  I really did not understand what they were saying about the delay.  Just hope all goes well Wednesday for the launch (I think they said the 14th).  As a layman, this stuff fascinates me and I still have a kid like attraction to all this. It has been over 50 years since Neil Armstrong set foot on the moon and I am still trying to wrap my mind around that.

Mike

[Steve Fitton]

I just hope it flies before too much dust gets on the solar panels to charge the battery

[Doug Moon]

I just hope it flies before too much dust gets on the solar panels to charge the battery

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/04/13/mars-ingenuity-helicopter-delay/

Check out that first pic!  Yikes!

This article says they will have to do a software update before it will fly.  Honestly that kind of cracked me up when they said "update".  Everything always needs a software update.  I feel bad for the team that it didnt work but I have strong faith they will get it corrected. I am puling for them!  This is some real SciFi Sh*t!

[Dan McEntee]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/04/13/mars-ingenuity-helicopter-delay/

Check out that first pic!  Yikes!

This article says they will have to do a software update before it will fly.  Honestly that kind of cracked me up when they said "update".  Everything always needs a software update.  I feel bad for the team that it didnt work but I have strong faith they will get it corrected. I am puling for them!  This is some real SciFi Sh*t!

   I'm taking the "software update" to mean a reprograming of it's sequence. The article mentions the "watchdog timer" that shut the thing down on it's spin up test, and Brett mentioned something about that also. They can test and run computer simulations on earth until their turn blue in the face but there is nothing like experiencing the actual conditions. Something just takes longer on Mars than it does on Earth in  vacuum chamber. The distance and the waiting is what would kill me if I was working on the team. You could do a software update on your computer in minutes! It takes days for this operation! I consider myself a patient person but the crew running this mission is off the charts!!
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Mike Griffin]

Maybe they forgot the password.   

Mike

[Brett Buck]

   I'm taking the "software update" to mean a reprograming of it's sequence. The article mentions the "watchdog timer" that shut the thing down on it's spin up test, and Brett mentioned something about that also. They can test and run computer simulations on earth until their turn blue in the face but there is nothing like experiencing the actual conditions.

    After having read various releases, and inferring what it means, I think that the issue is something I am somewhat familiar with, that is, it appears that two processors run in nominal "parallel", with one selected as the "prime" and the other "backup". There seems to have been an issue with one processor running on its internal clock slightly off from the other. The prime unit runs the sequences, and the backup runs the same sequences and they compare elapsed times. if one clock drifts off enough from the other, it might think the prime sequence is hung up and abort the operation.

Something just takes longer on Mars than it does on Earth in  vacuum chamber. The distance and the waiting is what would kill me if I was working on the team. You could do a software update on your computer in minutes! It takes days for this operation! I consider myself a patient person but the crew running this mission is off the charts!!

   It doesn't take minutes on Earth, either. It might take weeks or months (or years) for problems to be found, a solution devised, the software written, and the software to be tested. Then some time to get through QA checks and get uploaded to a server. *Then*, you might only see a few minutes for you to download and install it. But inreality it took many people months of work to get it to that point.

    They aren't pulling something off of Microsoft's server and installing it, they are diagnosing the problem, coming up with a fix, implementing it in code, installing it in a simulator or qual unit helicopter (maybe the one Igor is holding above), and then running exhaustive tests. Then and only then do they upload it to (probably) the rover, which then transfers it to the helicopter. Note that even the smallest screwup and you may not be able to talk it any more.


     Brett

[Dave Hull]

And the problems associated with parallel processors, and bus collisions, and polling samples, and....

This software falls into a bit different category though, at least from items I am used to. A few that are commonly understood:

1. Non-critical, non-flight software
2. Non-critical flight software
3. Software for unmanned, low mass, expendible drones. Typically commercial, with no military application
4. Flight critical software  (for manned aircraft)
5. Spaceflight software

Since this is considered an experiment, and since it isn't manned, but it is spaceflight and a lot of invested capital is at stake.....

Dave

[Howard Rush]

Weight is very important for spaceflight software, so all unused bits are set to zero. 

[Steve Berry]

Weight is very important for spaceflight software, so all unused bits are set to zero.

 

[pmackenzie]

Weight is very important for spaceflight software, so all unused bits are set to zero.

In most flash RAM erased bits are set to 1, so those would actually be the lighter ones.

[Brett Buck]

Weight is very important for spaceflight software, so all unused bits are set to zero.

    You laugh, I was present when someone, who could not be ignored, asked something very similar. It was the best 2-3 minutes of any CDR I was ever in, since it didn't happen to me.

      Brett

[John Rist]

In the good old core memory days (1960 ish) unused bits were set to "O".  So back then "O" was the light weight.    

[Dave Hull]

On various projects where I was part of the Mass Props team (ie. I was pretty much kidnapped) the software guys would always try to excuse themselves from the often very painful process of  getting system weight under control. After all, code has no mass, right? I was finally able to make progress when I explained it this way:

--We are building a large set of avionics
--The architecture demands that much of it be controlled by both software and firmware
--There is no purpose for all of the:  processor boards, power supplies, bus controllers, cooling modules, cable harnesses, etc. except to host and run your software and firmware
--Therefore, your software/firmware is one of the largest single factors driving the weight of the system
--If you don't feel responsible for the weight of all the processors and ancillary equipment because someone else is stuck designing it, well fine. We'll just delete all of it and you can go back into your office and write code for your laptop. But, fair warning, if there is no deliverable system, there's no need for simulator code running on your laptop....

I kept a running list of the weight per 100k SLOCs for various types of platforms and environments. The weight of SW is definitely non-zero.

Dave

[Elwyn Aud]

Looks like the first test hop was a success  Kudos to those who made it happen.

[John Rist]

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-s-ingenuity-mars-helicopter-succeeds-in-historic-first-flight

NASA link to the flight.    

[Dennis Nunes]

Congratulations to NASA’s Ingenuity Mars Helicopter Team for the successful first flight. 

Dennis

p.s. Was the helicopter registered with the FAA and/or have a RemoteID number?   

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Wow.  Nice flight.

Following the Nasa link above, they gave it an ICAO designator for ATC use.  Not sure why they gave it that instead of an FAA drone registration ID.  The FAA number might be helpful if the helicopter is found and the owner needs to be contacted.

In case Nasa needs it, in an effort to be helpful, I've included the link below regarding how to register your drone:

https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=84386

[GallopingGhostler]

In case Nasa needs it, in an effort to be helpful, I've included the link below regarding how to register your drone:

https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=84386

I heard that they also considered using a Fox .35 Stunt for power, but they were having difficulty resolving the high altitude burp problem.

[Dave Hull]

Well, the Duke used to run adds showing Martians landing their saucers here on earth and begging for just one cup of Missile Mist. Maybe he was prophetic....? But I think the LOX bottle that NASA's little heli-drone would need would be too heavy....

A really great achievement by the whole NASA/Industry team! Congratulations!!!

The Divot

[Tim Wescott]

On various projects where I was part of the Mass Props team (ie. I was pretty much kidnapped) the software guys would always try to excuse themselves from the often very painful process of  getting system weight under control. After all, code has no mass, right?

Having been in arguments with design teams about being able to leave tens of square inches of board out of a system if you'd just let software control that @#$% motor, I must say that someone at your company was missing out on an excellent opportunity for empire-building.

[Dave Hull]

Seems like they are getting this down. Second flight got a "looking where I'm going" picture.  Higher, faster, farther--expanding the flight envelope.

I noted that they intend to keep setting it down in the same spot, no doubt to reduce the risk of picking a new landing site via rover survey.

Would be very interesting to find out how the battery and charging system is working. And, whether NASA rules specified the weight of the aircraft with or without the battery....

Great progress!

[Brett Buck]

Third flight was also successful - vertical, hover, translation 300 feet, come back to the origin, straight down. Looked very solid, so I think they have the guidance and control part of it working very well.

   I guarantee someone, somewhere, is saying to himself, "dang it, we should have put some instruments on it, because we had the flying part down solid". It's clear to me that they know what they are doing and the concept is practical, so next step is to build one with some sensors on it.

    Brett

[Dave Hull]

They need to design the next rover with a docking grapple to grab the helo and take it with them. I think the two items together is the way to go

Dave