I made a thing

[Paul Taylor]

Always wanted one these. A few minutes on the computer and file sent to my robot printer out pops the parts.

[Dennis Toth]

Looks great Paul. With that setup you could also use your iPhone for the level (in the utilities section).

Best,    DennisT

[Paul Taylor]

Looks great Paul. With that setup you could also use your iPhone for the level (in the utilities section).

Best,    DennisT

Another great idea.
Back to the drawing board 🤣

[Dan McEntee]

Phone is too heavy. Use those small bubble levels that guys show on here.

[Paul Taylor]

I think I have one in a junk drawer somewhere.
The hunt it on!🤓

[Brett Buck]

Phone is too heavy. Use those small bubble levels that guys show on here.

   Are small bubble levels sufficiently precise and accurate to get the required alignment? Even precision machinist levels are more in the range of .005/foot which is right on the edge for, say, aligning a stabilizer. And you sure can't put one on that bar and let it settle, because it weighs more than the entire airplane.

   Brett

[Steve Helmick]

Robart Incidence Meters aren't available anymore? I think they're the bee's knees. If they've been discontinued, look on eBay.    Steve

[Paul Taylor]

If they've been discontinued, look on eBay.    Steve

Or….. fire up the 3D printer. 😆

[944_Jim]

Mr. Paul,
Where did you find the STL, or is this from scratch? Looks great!

[dave siegler]

A 3d printer opens up a new world/


https://www.thingiverse.com/search?q=incidemncde+%2Cmeter&page=1#google_vignette

[Paul Taylor]

Mr. Paul,
Where did you find the STL, or is this from scratch? Looks great!

I drew it up in OnShape. I needed one to fit my PVC pipe.

[Dan McEntee]

Robart Incidence Meters aren't available anymore? I think they're the bee's knees. If they've been discontinued, look on eBay.    Steve

    The original Robart incidence meter was up to the 60 dollar range, and they have not showed them "in stock" on the Robart web site in a quite a while. The Version II , which is designed to hold your cell phone is out of stock also and has been  for a long time. Over the last ten years or more, I started picking them up for 5 and 10 bucks each at swap meets. I have 3 , one for the engine, one for the wing and one for the stab. I set the airplane up and use all three at the same time to make sure they all agree with each other when doing final assembly. I just can't see hanging a heavy cell phone on a fixture for this purpose. It has to put some pressure on things that might twist a wing or cause some other issue to give a false reading.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Paul Taylor]

Another great idea. I’m about to have 3. 🙃

Dan can you post a picture of the one for the motor?

[Dan McEntee]

   Are small bubble levels sufficiently precise and accurate to get the required alignment? Even precision machinist levels are more in the range of .005/foot which is right on the edge for, say, aligning a stabilizer. And you sure can't put one on that bar and let it settle, because it weighs more than the entire airplane.

   Brett

       Any measuring tool or device for checking level can be mis-read. So can rulers. It's only as good as the person using it. I worked on large web and sheet fed presses for for 20 years, both installing them and repairing and maintaining them. Print units and accessories for a web press need to be level and tram to within .001" over the entire length of the assembly some times. It takes practice, the proper tools, and developing a mind set to do that kind of work but is very satisfying. Even when working as a welder/fabricator I had to learn to read a tape measure more accurately than most do. On any ruler or tape, you can read a measurement to the front of the line, on the line or the back of the line!!  I built jigs and fixtures for railroad car frames that were required to be within.015" over it's 60 foot length. That experience came in handy when I got into working on presses and learned those skills from some of the best. The biggest press I installed was almost 200 feet long, and the cumulative error for the rollers and working surfaces of the cylinders and such was less than .004" over 200 feet. We had Starrett and some Japanese levels for setting units and rollers that were in a finer range than .005" per foot. These were sensitive enough that just the warmth of your hand would make the bubble move! More often than not we got things dead nuts level and and I don't remember what the level tolerance was because we could reliably get things dead on. Sometimes we used home made tools for tramming a roller or leveling one that we couldn't use the bigger, heavier levels, so we used the small ones here and there, and the line levels that hang from a string line brick layers use. You set that next to a Starrett on a dead level surface and compare them so you can get a visual on how it reads. You learn to adjust it for what you are seeing, and then the proof is when you pull paper over it and whether it wrinkles the web or not. Sometimes you could adjust a roller on the fly to get a wrinkle out. Some rollers have a very slight crown to them to compensate for any slack due to humidity. . So from what I have seen of these in my use of these when setting up models, I think they work very well for our use, but again, it's only as good as the guy reading it. If you are not even used to reading a ruler accurately to within 1/16", (and I have worked with many that couldn't!) you might have a problem reading a level accurately. I bought a new washer and dryer when I moved into my first house. I didn't know that installation came with the sale, so I installed them myself that night. I didn't have a level of any kind on hand for some reason, so I used the next best thing, a Pyrex measuring cup! I had been told of this little hack at some point in life and compared it to a normal torpedo level and found it reasonably accurate, so seeing it was just a washer and dryer, that is what I used. The next morning, a service tech showed up and insisted on checking things out, stating that I might not have gotten them properly leveled, so I let him in. We headed to the basement , and the measuring cup of water was still on the dryer, and asked what that was for, so I told him. Naturally he scoffed at that but when he put his Craftsmen torpedo level on the machine his level was dead center.  So again, it's not necessarily the tool, it's the nut on the handle that is using it!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Dan McEntee]

Another great idea. I’m about to have 3. 🙃

Dan can you post a picture of the one for the motor?

  The Robart fixtures have a slot on one end where you attach it to the engine/power plant prop drive washer. I usually slide that to the middle of the beam, and take the other one off so things are kind of balanced. I am not educated enough to resize photos here so send me a email or cell number and I can text you a photo to post.

  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Lauri Malila]

.

[Paul Taylor]

Remember that if you want a reliable reading when measuring, you should have the measuring tool resolution 10x higher.
So, if you want to measure with 1° precision, the tool should show 0.1°’s. I think for things like flap & elevator throws 1° accuracy is enough and more rough tools, like the ones shown in this post or cheap digital inclinometres from hardware store are enough. But when you want to measure things like engine thrust line, decalage or warps, you’ll need something better.
In free flight we use these things called winkelsticks and they have kind of revolutionized the building and trimming. They have a 0.01°resolution which is enough for most tasks.
Using the winkelstick means that I can bench trim the model very close to final trim in my workshop, and thanks to it we no longer have mysteries, models where we don’t know why they perform badly (or well).
There is also other benefits, like being able to zero the reading via Bluetooth or being able to run the angles/steps into the timer programme. L

Could these winkelsticks be used to bench trim a stunt model?

A google search did not produce any information and AI thinks it’s a DT.

[Lauri Malila]

.

[Brett Buck]

       Any measuring tool or device for checking level can be mis-read. So can rulers.

   Right, and if it requires extreme care to avoid mis-reading it, then the chances are much higher that you will get a wrong reading than something that is easier or has more inherent accuracy.

   Lauri is right, the usual standard for instrument accuracy is 10X the required measurement accuracy and some things probably, ideally, are measured to 1/10th of a degree - not many, but at least some. I am at least a little skeptical about reading small bubble levels (say, a 1") repeatably to .01 degrees. For most things that is plenty good enough, but maybe not for a few critical measurements like the stab incidence.

    Mostly we get by with far lesser methods by being able to trim and adjust-in-test, and at some point you can't count on alignment stability being good enough over time or conditions, so I am not really criticising the idea. Most people don't bother measuring anything at all, just cutting out the fuse sides and hoping they did it (or the die or laser) cut it well enough. But to make good sense of your results, a few things you really do need to measure to decent accuracy.

    in the spirit of full disclosure, I do not have any precision levels or incidence meters at all. I use trammelling from a reference surface that I think is good to about .005, and the biggest issue is not the measurement itself, but determining the reference points on the airplane itself (like, where on the LE of the wing is actually the aerodynamic "0" point). Note that the reference surface is a piece of melamine board over a very carefully planed and sanded butcher-block birch that I have tweaked over the years using precision straightedges, updated before every atab alignment. I check the melamine surface and shim it straight WRT the base using indicator dust (chalk). Even then, I would guess I can measure repeatedly to about .005", which is about 3x better than the stab incidence angle I am trying to hit. If I had Lauri's gadget, I would use that.

   Note also that the "flat stab" is not flat because that is aerodynamically better, it's because it can be accurately measured by naturally providing a very good reference. You then make it pointy to get it to work better aerodynamically. I use an airfoiled stab that limits the measurement accuracy but (I think) performs better.

     Brett

   

[Howard Rush]

I want me some winklesticks.

[Brett Buck]

I want me some winklesticks.

  Me, too, if we knew where to get one. Tramelling works but is painfully slow and sometimes hard to interpret.

     Brett

[Howard Rush]

Igor probably has something that displays on a Jeti box.

[Tom Luciano]

I believe there's a gentleman from New England that uses his timer as a incidence meter.

Tom

[Lauri Malila]

.

[Brett Buck]

I asked Allard about availability, he has them in stock (Clino).
In FF they are normally used as a pair, a pair costs 190€. He can also sell only one, that’s 95€.
I think he has his own app for Android, for Apple you can use the FX12 timer app.
L

Howard knows all about facebook, being a social butterfly and all, maybe I can appeal to him as a go-between.

     Brett

[Lauri Malila]

Yep.

Anyway, let me know if you need help with it. L

[dave siegler]

I used a Robart indicator to set the pitch on wind turbines we were developing and found it more accurate than the purpose-built unit costing a lot more.  They worked well once you understood them and the mirrored display needle.   

[Igor Burger]

Igor probably has something that displays on a Jeti box.

And your new timer can show G vector. Not the highest precision, but it is ok at least for leveling ... or to check if model hangs on lines vertical :- )))

Factory code 74

[Perry Rose]

If you are looking for accuracy the Wixey digital angle gauge is what you are looking for. CK Aero makes an adapter for the Robart incedence mater bar plus a bunch of other useful stuff. The meter has a magnet base so putting a magnet on Paul's "thing" will work.