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Author Topic: I have a Continental that flys like ***t  (Read 9142 times)

Online Brett Buck

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #50 on: November 24, 2012, 02:23:01 PM »

Next, I take issue with Brett.  CG location does directly affect affect stability.  Some aircraft flown with CGs at or behind the allowable CG range "porpoise" which is sorta the full size equivalent of stunt "hunting".  I have also experienced "hunting" on stunt ships of mine which were happily cured with noseweight.  I have also used noseweight and wider line spacing to increase available lift to tighten corners of marginally heavy airplanes.


 I won't rise to the bait again.

   Agreed, that can work, if you cannot adjust the flap/elevator ratio. But I don't see any evidence of it being overweight or stalling here.  Simply adding noseweight can  cover up the underlying problem, as the limit cycle will likely get slower as you add noseweight, and eventually become a tolerable issue. The problem is that as you add noseweight you also add control load, and slow the controls. Adding spacing will can get the control response back, but it can't do anything about the control loads. That leads down the spiral of having to generate more line tension, which leads to compromising trim to add line tension, which leads to more issues yet.

   Hunting in the classic sense IS NOT a simple instability. I have flown airplanes that were tremendously unstable, and had to be reverse-controlled in every corner and even the rounds, but had no tendency to hunt at all. By the same token some of the worst hunting airplanes I have flown were those that someone tried to fix by adding noseweight to the point they just about couldn't do a loop. In some cases moving the CG forward made it worse, or much worse- since, as mentioned above, the leadouts are effectively moved back by adding noseweight, and having the leadouts too far aft is a classic cause (either causes binding in the leadouts or causes non-linear separation effects as the relative wind across the fuselage detaches and reattaches).

   In your full-scale example, I would suspect a combination of phugoid effects and either PIO or Auto-PIO. At some point as the CG moves back, the natural frequency of the pitch response slows down, and at some point it will definitely start interacting with the pilot response or autopilot response. A pilot can fix it by forcing himself to go "out of phase", the autopilot just does what it does. Howard could tell us how current autopilot design works, hopefully something better than the crude gain-scheduling systems I have seen. The phugoid poles are weak at best on stunt planes, the PIO it a legitimate possibility but there has to be some non-linearity somewhere.

   If you don't have enough lift, adding flap travel WRT the elevator is far more effective than moving the CG forward, and again, doesn't compromise the performance and only hurts the control loading a small amount. Unfortunately, with some designs, the issue causing the stall is not too thin airfoils, inadequate flap travel or area, lack of sealed hinges, but excessively sharp or poorly-shaped LE, which causes it to separate at very low Cls. That cannot be fixed with the CG OR changing the flap travel. And that's about the only case I ever see any more. As long as the engine/prop is running right, anything close to right is sufficient. So I woudn't be too concerned about that.

   Fixing the underlying cause is much more effective and will not lead to compromising the performance, which I think is a better solution to look at more likely causes.

    Brett

Offline Andrew Borgogna

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2012, 02:30:56 PM »
"Finally, my suggestion to Andy would be to take Al's advice...up to a point.  Figure out the area of the tail relative to the area of the wing and locate the "dry" CG (unfueled) at that percentage of the average chord(including flaps, of course).  If you've tried to fly it with the dry weight CG at the now popular 25% of the average chord you are almost certainly asking for a skittish and, perhaps, hunting airplane.  There just isn't enough tail to allow you to move the neutral point of the ship aft far enough for an adequate "static margin" with the CG at 25%.  If the airplane still hunts start looking elsewhere for the cause."

Couple of things, sorry for not mentioning that the plane was electric in my original post, but I did correct that mistake in my second.  I was warned by somebody that the Continental had a small elevator/stab and that was one reason almost nobody flew it in competition.  Never gave it a thought that the size of the tail could be linked to hunting, but lets face it guys most of you have forgotten way more than I will ever know about this sport.  I really like Ted's suggestion to follow Al's suggestion mentioned above.  OK, I will now add something else to the mix ( am only doing this because  as I read I start to see the importance of EVERYTHING).  The prop is an APC 12x6.5 electric pusher with a very wide blade.  I doubt it weighs more that a normal gas 11x5 prop because of its electric only design, but it does have a bit disk and a big bite in the air.  I run it at 9100 RPM in level flight but because it has a variable gain system I have no idea what the RPM is during various maneuvers.  But since this is only a level fight issue the 9100 RPM should be OK.
Andy
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2012, 04:27:07 PM »
I've followed this along and sure picked up a lot.  Only thing is I've been waiting for somebody to ask the 'hillbilly engineer' (like me) question: are the controls too tight?  I have always allowed a bit of slop in the control horns so the flaps and elevators could self-align in flight and allow for minor goofs in surface shape or control set-up.  I can think about many stories in the past where guys had to go back in and loosen stuff up some to get the airplane to fly right.

Dave
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Offline Bob Whitely

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #53 on: November 24, 2012, 06:36:49 PM »
A few things no one  has mentioned. Tom Warden was a good friend of mine
back in the 60's and afterward and we flew together a lot. I did in fact finally
beat him at a contest with his own design Continental. Remember back then
we used McCoy .40s' and no mufflers.  The airplane as designed by Tom needed
to be no heavier that 47-48 oz. At those weights it flew quite well, did not have
a blinding corner more like an Ares and Cobras'.  It would groove extremely well and
was easy to fly.  The present Continental is quite different as the airfoil is much
thicker and blunter and the fuselage is much wider than the original. Yours should
fly ok but the wing loading and the smallish tail do not help much in making it
smooth. You may get the hunting fixed but it will cost you in some other way such
as no corner.  Just make sure it is all accurate as possible and keep trying.  RJ

Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #54 on: November 24, 2012, 07:49:36 PM »
A few things no one  has mentioned. Tom Warden was a good friend of mine back in the 60's and afterward and we flew together a lot. I did in fact finally beat him at a contest with his own design Continental. Remember back then we used McCoy .40s' and no mufflers.  The airplane as designed by Tom needed to be no heavier that 47-48 oz. At those weights it flew quite well, did not have a blinding corner more like an Ares and Cobras'.  It would groove extremely well and was easy to fly.  The present Continental is quite different as the airfoil is much thicker and blunter and the fuselage is much wider than the original. Yours should  fly ok but the wing loading and the smallish tail do not help much in making it smooth. You may get the hunting fixed but it will cost you in some other way such as no corner.  Just make sure it is all accurate as possible and keep trying.  RJ

...and here is hi-sto-ree.  8)
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Offline Steve Thomas

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2012, 01:18:41 AM »
I was interested to see Bob's comments re the differences between the original Continental and the current RSM kit. Does anyone know how Bill Sawyer's 'Laser Continental' kit compared with the original?

I built one of Bill's kits, and Bob's remarks, "flew quite well, did not have a blinding corner...would groove extremely well, and was easy to fly" describe it perfectly.  Mine came out at 48 oz with a muffled Enya 45, and as such seemed rather nose-heavy.  Corners were not particularly sharp, and it had to be sort of muscled around the sky.  One ounce of tailweight improved things somewhat, but it still didn't corner as hard as I would like.  With 2 oz of tailweight I get a nice sharp corner, but also a quite pronounced tendency to overshoot (either that small tail or my lousy flying). I guess somewhere around 1.5 to 1.75 oz will be about right.

Interestingly, even with the 2 oz of tailweight, there was no hunting evident at all.  Alignment is 0-0-0, as I am a simple soul.

While it probably wouldn't be my first choice for a competition (at least until I get it properly trimmed), it's a great-looking design and a lot of fun to fly,

Steve
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 02:01:28 PM by Steve Thomas »

Offline Dick Pacini

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2012, 09:44:14 AM »
This is a great thread with lots of info.  I built a Sterling Mustang profile back in '65 or so that was a hunter.  Every time I tried a maneuver, just like a hunting dog, it put its nose to the ground. HB~>
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #57 on: November 25, 2012, 10:05:53 AM »

 I just got a chance to read Whitley's "Things That Always Work" column last night. The best, most sensible and easy to understand Control Line read I've come across in some time. I will be fine-tuning a few of my building practices accordingly. y1

 Thanks again for tracking it down for us Russell! y1
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Offline Russell Bond

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2012, 02:29:49 PM »
Thanks.   ;D ;D
Bandolero

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2012, 04:17:03 PM »
Just wondering here if the CG on the plans takes into account a wet fuel load or not.

If not (and I assume that this is the case), and being electric then flying with 'full fuel load' at the start of the pattern may indeed require you to permanently add weight to get the model back to inflight design parameters.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 05:22:23 PM by Chris Wilson »
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Offline Paul Walker

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #60 on: November 25, 2012, 07:10:56 PM »

Tiny tails!!!  Exactly why my plans for Warden's Continental (a beautiful classic eligible airplane) remain in pristine condition in my files and are not covered with notes, glue drops and "under construction" components.  A tiny tail and a forward Cg is simply a non starter for me to justify the effort necessary to build any airplane with which I want to compete.




Ted,
When I liven in SoCal in the late 80's, I flew nearly every weekend with Tom Warden. After a few years of flying with him, he appeared one weekend with an original Continental. I was amazed at how well it had aged through the years. Then he told me that it hadn't run for 15 ish years, and he wanted ME to fly it. With some reluctance i did. Wow, what an experience. Flying one of my "childhood" idols airplanes. The McCoy 40 started quickly, and held the classic four cycle throughout the flight.

It didn't have a blinding corner, but was adequate. It was stable, and grooved well in rounds. It also tracked well.  I mention this because of your comments above. With a lite motor, the plane will work well. However, with a modern engine with a muffler on it, maybe it won't work so well. If you have an original McCoy 40, go for it!

Offline Mike Keville

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2012, 05:07:09 PM »
. . . With a lite motor, the plane will work well. However, with a modern engine with a muffler on it, maybe it won't work so well. If you have an original McCoy 40, go for it!

This (above) from someone who definitely knows what he's talking about.

Alternate suggestion: bring the model to Tucson, let Whitely and/or Trostle fly it.  Either one will diagnose and correct the problem quickly.
FORMER member, "Academy of Multi-rotors & ARFs".

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2012, 05:48:02 PM »
You telling  me you don't lose weight as the electrons disappear or is used up. LL~ LL~ LL~
According to Mr. Einstein, the battery would lose about 2-3 picograms of mass as it discharges just from mass to energy conversion, or about 0.0000000000001% of the total battery mass.

It probably loses more than that from the plastic evaporating, and certainly more from getting bits scraped off when you put it into and out of the plane.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Mike Keville

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2012, 06:10:50 PM »
Mike, really, bring it to VSC??? Really?? LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

Oh, gosh, no!  PRIOR to the VSC, of course.   n1  n1  n1
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Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2012, 06:34:07 PM »
Tiny tails!!!  Exactly why my plans for Warden's Continental (a beautiful classic eligible airplane) remain in pristine condition in my files and are not covered with notes, glue drops and "under construction" components.  A tiny tail and a forward Cg is simply a non starter for me to justify the effort necessary to build any airplane with which I want to compete.




Ted,
When I liven in SoCal in the late 80's, I flew nearly every weekend with Tom Warden. After a few years of flying with him, he appeared one weekend with an original Continental. I was amazed at how well it had aged through the years. Then he told me that it hadn't run for 15 ish years, and he wanted ME to fly it. With some reluctance i did. Wow, what an experience. Flying one of my "childhood" idols airplanes. The McCoy 40 started quickly, and held the classic four cycle throughout the flight.

It didn't have a blinding corner, but was adequate. It was stable, and grooved well in rounds. It also tracked well.  I mention this because of your comments above. With a lite motor, the plane will work well. However, with a modern engine with a muffler on it, maybe it won't work so well. If you have an original McCoy 40, go for it!


Cool story, Paul. Thanks for mentioning it!
Chris...

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2012, 09:50:17 PM »
Remove the electric motor, replace it with an IC engine and the Classic Gods willl smile on your efforts.

Mike, really, bring it to VSC??? Really?? LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~


Ty,
Really...there is life and flying in Tucson both prior to and after VSC.   y1
In fact about 5 days a week year round.  ;D

Randy C.
Randy Cuberly
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Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2012, 01:46:55 PM »
I was interested to see Bob's comments re the differences between the original Continental and the current RSM kit. Does anyone know how Bill Sawyer's 'Laser Continental' kit compared with the original?

I built one of Bill's kits, and Bob's remarks, "flew quite well, did not have a blinding corner...would groove extremely well, and was easy to fly" describe it perfectly.  Mine came out at 48 oz with a muffled Enya 45, and as such seemed rather nose-heavy.  Corners were not particularly sharp, and it had to be sort of muscled around the sky.  One ounce of tailweight improved things somewhat, but it still didn't corner as hard as I would like.  With 2 oz of tailweight I get a nice sharp corner, but also a quite pronounced tendency to overshoot (either that small tail or my lousy flying). I guess somewhere around 1.5 to 1.75 oz will be about right.

Interestingly, even with the 2 oz of tailweight, there was no hunting evident at all.  Alignment is 0-0-0, as I am a simple soul.

While it probably wouldn't be my first choice for a competition (at least until I get it properly trimmed), it's a great-looking design and a lot of fun to fly,

Steve

Bill's was more accurate, I thought. Pretty narrow, I could envision myself filing off some lug material on the McCoy 40. I bought his kit and it was really nice, but never built it and then sold it on.
You seem to have built a good one and found the remedy to the slow corners.
Chris...

Offline Mike Keville

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2012, 08:25:40 PM »
Hi Randy. Yes I know, but had to jerk Mikes chain. Wife and I are still contmeplating moving there, for the winters. She hates the dry heat. LL~ H^^

Dry Heat's better than sopping-wet humidity....and we don't have tornadoes either.  C'mon out!
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #68 on: November 29, 2012, 05:51:28 AM »
No tornadoes, but you have dust storms.  I remember one year having to go to the car wash just to see what color the car was.   LL~ LL~
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: I have a Continental that flys like ***t
« Reply #69 on: November 30, 2012, 01:21:47 AM »
Not much of a dust storm if the car still had paint on it.
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