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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: James Holford on May 08, 2018, 09:14:49 PM

Title: I gotta say it
Post by: James Holford on May 08, 2018, 09:14:49 PM: Superfill is amazingly easy!!!!! Dont see how or why everyone dont use this stuff!!!

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Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: wwwarbird on May 08, 2018, 09:20:56 PM: I'll second that, it's great stuff. y1
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Gary Dowler on May 08, 2018, 10:58:07 PM: Interesting. Wasn't familiar with the product so I had to search it out. I've been trying epoxy/microbaloons and have been frustrated with the results. Often difficult to sand and even low shrink dope shrinks some and pulls away from it.

Gary
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Brett Buck on May 08, 2018, 11:03:02 PM: Quote from: Gary Dowler on May 08, 2018, 10:58:07 PM
Interesting. Wasn't familiar with the product so I had to search it out. I've been trying epoxy/microbaloons and have been frustrated with the results. Often difficult to sand and even low shrink dope shrinks some and pulls away from it.

Oh, don't use that, use Superfil, it's great.

Brett
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Skip Chernoff on May 09, 2018, 03:29:31 AM: I'm not familiar with it.Who sells it? Does is smell?
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: James Holford on May 09, 2018, 04:06:05 AM: Quote from: Skip Chernoff on May 09, 2018, 03:29:31 AM
I'm not familiar with it.Who sells it? Does is smell?
Brodak has it. The smell is barely noticeable.

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Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: John Rist on May 09, 2018, 06:09:40 AM: Brodak

http://brodak.com/finishing-products/epoxy-aeropoxy-putty/epoxy/aeropoxy-lite-super-fil.html

PS Brodak spells it Super Fil Epoxy. It is good stuff. Tends to be self leveling.
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Scott Richlen on May 09, 2018, 06:14:25 AM: Remember to keep it refrigerated (along with your CA glue). It will last for many years. The Brodaks add says two year shelf-life once opened, but if you keep it refrigerated between uses it seems to last forever. Mine is at least 5 years old.
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Mike Griffin on May 09, 2018, 07:36:39 AM: Aircraft Spruce also carries it. I have used it for several years now but still have not been able to determine the structural strength of the material..if any. I would think the Epoxy, micro balloons mixture for fillets would lend more strength at the joint but I could be wrong since I have never seen data on the properties of Superfill. Either product will smooth out really slick if you dip your finger in alcohol run it along the fillet. I have never had a failure using either method. I agree with the consensus...it is really a good product.

Mike
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Brett Buck on May 09, 2018, 08:00:24 AM: Quote from: Scott Richlen on May 09, 2018, 06:14:25 AM
Remember to keep it refrigerated (along with your CA glue). It will last for many years. The Brodaks add says two year shelf-life once opened, but if you keep it refrigerated between uses it seems to last forever. Mine is at least 5 years old.

Mine has been sitting on the shelf, at up to 110 degrees, for at least that long - and it's also still good.

Brett
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Brett Buck on May 09, 2018, 08:03:34 AM: Quote from: Skip Chernoff on May 09, 2018, 03:29:31 AM
I'm not familiar with it.Who sells it? Does is smell?

You get it from Aircraft Spruce and Supply. It has a very mild smell, a bit like ammonia (probably because of the aforementioned 110 degree storage conditions) but nothing very noticeable compared to a lot of other modeling components (like Klass Kote "slow" thinner, which just seems to hang in the air).

Brett
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Doug Moon on May 09, 2018, 09:02:44 AM: DO NOT GET IT ON YOUR SKIN! At least for me it was a bad burning reaction. I used nitrile gloves the next several times i have used it and its been good. It seems to start to harden quickly on me...
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: James Holford on May 09, 2018, 09:05:40 AM: Quote from: Doug Moon on May 09, 2018, 09:02:44 AM
DO NOT GET IT ON YOUR SKIN! At least for me it was a bad burning reaction. I used nitrile gloves the next several times i have used it and its been good. It seems to start to harden quickly on me...
Oh.... lol i used it with bare fingers last night no problem.

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Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Brett Buck on May 09, 2018, 09:07:56 AM: Quote from: Doug Moon on May 09, 2018, 09:02:44 AM
DO NOT GET IT ON YOUR SKIN! At least for me it was a bad burning reaction. I used nitrile gloves the next several times i have used it and its been good. It seems to start to harden quickly on me...

That's interesting. I haven't exactly caked it on, but I he certainly used my finger to smooth it out, and it certainly got on my skin multiple times. The only problem I had was that it was relatively hard to clean off.

I guess you never know what an individual will react to. If I get balsa dust on my arms, and it gets rubbed in, I get a rash.

Brett
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: James Holford on May 09, 2018, 09:10:58 AM: Quote from: Brett Buck on May 09, 2018, 09:07:56 AM

That's interesting. I haven't exactly caked it on, but I he certainly used my finger to smooth it out, and it certainly got on my skin multiple times. The only problem I had was that it was relatively hard to clean off.

I guess you never know what an individual will react to. If I get balsa dust on my arms, and it gets rubbed in, I get a rash.

Brett
Isopropyl Alcohol cleaned it up real nice for me.

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Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Brett Buck on May 09, 2018, 09:24:03 AM: Quote from: James Holford on May 09, 2018, 09:10:58 AM
Isopropyl Alcohol cleaned it up real nice for me.

Agreed, that seems to be the best solvent, but there's still a film left behind that doesn't wash off too easily. Epoxolite cleans up easily with soap and water, for example.

Brett
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: James Holford on May 09, 2018, 09:25:47 AM: Quote from: Brett Buck on May 09, 2018, 09:24:03 AM
Agreed, that seems to be the best solvent, but there's still a film left behind that doesn't wash off too easily. Epoxolite cleans up easily with soap and water, for example.

Brett
Ahhh i got ya

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Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Warren Wagner on May 09, 2018, 10:48:18 AM: Super Fil is great stuff, and when it come time for the final sanding, you are going to love it.
Below is a photo of a test sample I made of the sanding of Super Fil. I purposely left the
sanding residue on the sample so one could see just how nicely it "powders off"....it's like
sanding 'talc and dope'.

It's a bit expensive, but you get a two containers that will last you a long time.

Cheers.

Warren Wagner
Clay, NY
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Scott Richlen on May 09, 2018, 11:01:32 AM: Always dip your finger in alcohol before you use your finger to shape it. Do this before every swipe!

Here's the process:
1 - tape off the fillet area, usually 1/4' away from joint on both sides is enough
2 - mix (using scale to weigh out portions and do the Windy thing: when you think you've mixed enough, mix that much more)
3 - apply with sucker stick
4 - smooth with the tip of an old broken prop (the tip should be perfectly round and smooth
5 - remove excess from surrounding tape
6 - smooth with alcoholic finger (always wipe your finger off on paper towel after each pass so you don't screw up what you have so far! and rewet!)
7 - remove tape carefully (do not lift the edge of your money-coat!!)
8 - re-smooth remaining tape-edge with alcoholic finger to feather it and make perfect fillet

Not done yet:

9 - once set, wipe fillet with alcohol to remove any residue
10 - get yourself one of those rubber guppy-tails from the wood-working store and wrap it with 320 for a light sanding to roughen surface. Do not screw up and sand a grove in the surface adjacent to your beautiful fillet!!

Hand cleaning: wipe off finger with alcohol and then wash hands with Orange hand soap (the gritty stuff you use after working on the engine of your hot-rod.

Scott
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Howard Rush on May 09, 2018, 02:42:11 PM: I am maybe the only person in the cosmos who doesn't like this stuff.
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Doug Moisuk on May 09, 2018, 03:16:59 PM: This was posted before and I ordered a larger container. Cost me over $100. It sets up hard as a rock. Not easy to sand. Should the blue portion be as thick as peanut butter? What am I doing wrong?
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: James Holford on May 09, 2018, 03:18:57 PM: Quote from: Doug Moisuk on May 09, 2018, 03:16:59 PM
This was posted before and I ordered a larger container. Cost me over $100. It sets up hard as a rock. Not easy to sand. Should the blue portion be as thick as peanut butter? What am I doing wrong?
It's two part. Mix 2 parts blue to 1 part white.

You either did too much white or not enough.

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Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Avaiojet on May 09, 2018, 03:25:43 PM: Quote from: Howard Rush on May 09, 2018, 02:42:11 PM
I am maybe the only person in the cosmos who doesn't like this stuff.

No you're not Howard.

I've never used it and I won't.

'Overnight!'

I sand my Micro-Balloon mix, using 5 or 20 minute Epoxy, in 10 to 30 minutes. I don't have to sand my fillets! ;D

I can also control the mix depending on the purpose. Costs 4.99 from my LHS.

Take a good look at my hanger queens, a couple are 6 years old now and they look like they have never been flown. LL~ LL~

Micro-Balloons forever!!

Ask Don Jenkins, he uses fiberglass resin and Micro-Balloons.

And his model looks really good. His craftsmanship is outstanding.
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Lauri Malila on May 09, 2018, 03:36:00 PM: Me neither, Howard. I feel it's too hard to work well as a filler and too brittle for other jobs. I think I only found it nice in finishing the canopy perimeter.
After some healt issues in past, I would think twice about touching it without good nitrile gloves. Especially when smoothing it out with alcohol. L
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: peabody on May 09, 2018, 03:37:34 PM: The stuff is supposed to be mixed by weight....
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Brett Buck on May 09, 2018, 03:42:50 PM: Quote from: Doug Moisuk on May 09, 2018, 03:16:59 PM
This was posted before and I ordered a larger container. Cost me over $100. It sets up hard as a rock. Not easy to sand. Should the blue portion be as thick as peanut butter? What am I doing wrong?

It's $22 for a lifetime supply (32 fluid ounces, about enough for 200 stunt plane fillet jobs).

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/superfil.php

The only sizes they have are the quart and *3 GALLON* sizes, I assume you didn;t get that. This opposed to the ~$20 for the tiny little 4 ounce jars of Epoxolite that we used to get. I forget what Aeropoxy Light cost.

It's not a easy to sand as some other wood fillers, like Elmer's Fill n Finish, spackling compound, or something like K&B Super Poxy Primer. It does set up like a rock, but a really soft rock. It's like Epoxolite but vastly easier to sand, to the point you can use it as a regular filler in some situations - unlike Epoxolite, that you pretty much have to form into the finished shape before it sets, or woe be unto you. Both parts are about the consistency of peanut butter or cake icing, and that's what you want - it's filler, not regular epoxy with something globbed in it.

I expect that we are not communicating or you are attempting to use it for something the rest of us wouldn't. I use it for fillets and, recently, as a filler over my stabilizer repair. In the latter case, this consisted of spreading thin over a relatively large area, and I had no problem sanding it down to feather edges using Perma-Grit files and then regular sandpaper, on a 1/32 balsa over foam stabilizer.

I probably *wouldn't* use it as a filler over wide areas of soft balsa as a rule, because it is a lot harder than you would want for that application. But it works fine for filling pinholes, divots, etc.

Epoxy and microballons has it's place as an adhesive, but as a filler it is the very last thing you want, far too gummy to sand and runs all over the place even in the best conditions, Charles' careful evaluation and relevant endorsement notwithstating. It's also not nearly as stable over time as SuperFil, with all that glue fraction, it shrinks a little (although nothing like as much as air-drying products like plastic balsa or other dope/sawdust concoctions, or Squadron putty).

Brett
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Brett Buck on May 09, 2018, 03:43:29 PM: Quote from: peabody on May 09, 2018, 03:37:34 PM
The stuff is supposed to be mixed by weight....

Doesn't matter, the instructions say 2:1 either way.

Brett
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Scott Richlen on May 09, 2018, 04:00:59 PM: Howard:

What do combat guys do with fillets?
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: RC Storick on May 09, 2018, 04:56:20 PM: I love the stuff here is a video on how I do it.

https://youtu.be/LYfYUJerSi4
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: RC Storick on May 09, 2018, 05:06:42 PM: Quote from: Brett Buck on May 09, 2018, 03:43:29 PM
Doesn't matter, the instructions say 2:1 either way.

Brett

Brett is correct it does not matter. I use 2 plastic spoons one for each part. Never cross-contaminate
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Tom Luciano on May 09, 2018, 05:15:05 PM: Also not mentioned. If you find it to be too thick, a drop of either denatured or isopropyl Alcohol goes a long way to thin. It will slow cure time but works great.

i feel its very user friendly and also find it easy to sand but you don't have to, if you follow the instructions above. I'll normally scuff it for some tooth for finishing.

I love it too!

Tom
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Dan McEntee on May 09, 2018, 05:35:05 PM: The original epoxy/micro balloon method used Hobby Poxy Smooth 'N Easy finish cure epoxy. That is not available anymore so I use the hobby shop brand made by Roberts R/C products or something like that, that is a 20 minute finish cure product for laying up fiber glass. It's much thinner than regular epoxy. I use those small graduated mixing cups and mix about 1/4 full of the epoxy first, then start adding micro balloons a little bit at a time, until it gets to be like putty or cake icing. The mixing cup is then full!! Lay out your fillets in your favorite fashion and then apply with a Popsicle stick. The micro balloons really slows down the reaction process of the epoxy so you have plenty of time to work carefully. Once I have it applied to my liking, I wait until it sets up a bit more, maybe another 30 to 45 minutes, then start dragging it smooth with the finger in alcohol trick as mentioned. You can work it down right to the surface, and clean up excess with an alcohol rag. When fished like this, I have never had to sand a fillet and have NEVER had any paint of ANY kind lift off of it. If I do have sand it it sand quite easily as you have more micro balloons than epoxy. I have never tried the Superfil because I had such good luck with this method and always have the epoxy and micro balloons around and use the epoxy for other stuff. If I get to building the models that I want to in the next couple of years I may get some and try it. I have n doubt that it's good stuff because so may swear by it, but if you are having trouble with the epoxy /micro balloon method, you are probably noy using the correct epoxy. And don't confuse micro balloons with the ground fiber glass that is usually on the shelf next to it.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Avaiojet on May 09, 2018, 05:44:47 PM: Anyone doubt the claims I make about Micro-Balloons or other products or the way I do things, you can go over to CFC Graphics vendor's corner and see my Builds and Threads.

You can also check in the main Forum Building Threads and Finishing Threads. I have Threads scattered there also.

I hardly ever use Micro-Balloons over 'naked' balsa. I apply a few coats of thinned dope that soaks into the balsa. Makes the balsa a tad harder.

As far as larger areas, I use a 'skim' of auto putty as I demonstrated with the wing of the ARGO II in the ARGO II build. Over dope or primer and not over balsa.

I acquired the wing built and it needed quite a bit of work. A lot actually but I hate building wings so I made the improvements.

I believe I mentioned in that ARGO II build how little weight was added. I believe the finished model came in at 55oz.

Here are my Builds! Check them out!

Mig-3
Gee Bee Z
Flite Streak 007 Skyfall
GBR-3
ARGO
ARGO II
Stuka Tank Buster
P-40

It's all there, I have no secrets.
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Trostle on May 09, 2018, 05:46:51 PM: Quote from: Scott Richlen on May 09, 2018, 11:01:32 AM
Always dip your finger in alcohol before you use your finger to shape it. Do this before every swipe!

Here's the process:
1 - tape off the fillet area, usually 1/4' away from joint on both sides is enough
2 - mix (using scale to weigh out portions and do the Windy thing: when you think you've mixed enough, mix that much more)
3 - apply with sucker stick
4 - smooth with the tip of an old broken prop (the tip should be perfectly round and smooth
5 - remove excess from surrounding tape
6 - smooth with alcoholic finger (always wipe your finger off on paper towel after each pass so you don't screw up what you have so far! and rewet!)
7 - remove tape carefully (do not lift the edge of your money-coat!!)
8 - re-smooth remaining tape-edge with alcoholic finger to feather it and make perfect fillet

Not done yet:

9 - once set, wipe fillet with alcohol to remove any residue
10 - get yourself one of those rubber guppy-tails from the wood-working store and wrap it with 320 for a light sanding to roughen surface. Do not screw up and sand a grove in the surface adjacent to your beautiful fillet!!

Hand cleaning: wipe off finger with alcohol and then wash hands with Orange hand soap (the gritty stuff you use after working on the engine of your hot-rod.

Scott

Scott,

All great instructions and basically what I do. However, I have been able to do several things that simplify getting an acceptable fillet job without the need to do any reshaping. I used to put the tape near where the edges of the fillets to use sort of as a guide. Now, I do not use any tape. I use "items" from the shop to give me the desired radius I want in the fillet. This goes all the way from 1/8" wire with a rounded tip (for really small fillets) to sockets from the tool box of much larger radii. I moisten the "item" with alcohol (water also works, but alcohol works best from me and drag all of the excess material away from the fillet. It might take several passes to get the desired fillet. There will be "residue"material left behind where the "item" formed the fillet which can be carefully scraped away with a pallet knife. A pallet knife with a rounded tip works best, but it is a good idea to have several pallet knives with different shaped tips. Just be careful not to disturb the nice fillet you have just formed. the pallet knife can remove all excess material from the surfaces next to where you formed your fillet. Once the material has set, all you need to do is to take some flexible sandpaper (like 220 or 320) and take away the shine of the fillet you have just formed. With the working life of this stuff, I have found that I can only do the fillets on one side of the fuselage before I need a fresh batch.

Jim Lee has a whole set of ball bearings of different diameters mounted on short dowels that can be used to make these uniform fillets. Worth the investment.

Keith
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: wwwarbird on May 09, 2018, 09:16:13 PM: Quote from: Howard Rush on May 09, 2018, 02:42:11 PM
I am maybe the only person in the cosmos who doesn't like this stuff.

I'm curious Howard, what's not to like?
Title: Re: I gotta say it
Post by: Steve Hines on May 09, 2018, 09:55:59 PM: It smells like cookie dough once it's mixed. Used to make it in the 70s was Sig two part epoxy and Flume silica. It's much easier just to buy it and mix it up the way it is, you can get Flume Celica on eBay. You have to wear a mask, so you don't get it in your lungs.