Author Topic: HP 40 ABC sets Edited first post (Read 3947 times)

Brian Gardner · « **on:** July 26, 2017, 02:17:03 AM »

OK guys, a heap of people over the years have requested I do ABC piston & liner sets for the HP 40.

These should be ready in May I hope.

The kit will include a stunt timed ABC piston/liner/rod/pin/shims/backplate & front case gaskets. There is an optional finned head with stock combustion chamber.

Skip Chernoff · « **Reply #1 on:** July 26, 2017, 05:32:15 AM »

Brian I presently run an HP 40 in one of my ARF Noblers and it runs well. I'm going to use it at a contest this weekend. After the meet I'd be happy to send you the engine for your inspection and measurement. I'd prefer one timed to 4/2 break. Cheers,PhillySkip

BYU · « **Reply #2 on:** July 26, 2017, 10:28:39 AM »

Randy Smith set up numbers for this engine and I bet that his P&Ls would be the best to work from, I believe they are the same P&L sets that Tom Hampshire uses.

I can mail you a new HP 40 with the P&L set installed as set up by Randy Smith if it helps, I just need your address.

Maybe you would consider making heads as well?

I will take 5 sets of whatever you make.

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #3 on:** July 26, 2017, 04:19:27 PM »

That sounds pretty good. I'd be happy to do heads as well.

Lets see how numbers go before we commit and post engines etc. I need at least 20 sets reserved on a list.

Brian

Quote from: Bobs your Uncle on July 26, 2017, 10:28:39 AM

Randy Smith set up numbers for this engine and I bet that his P&Ls would be the best to work from, I believe they are the same P&L sets that Tom Hampshire uses.

I can mail you a new HP 40 with the P&L set installed as set up by Randy Smith if it helps, I just need your address.

Maybe you would consider making heads as well?

I will take 5 sets of whatever you make.

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #4 on:** July 26, 2017, 04:23:31 PM »

4/2 timing is what I think I'd most likely go with. Probably the same as what I used for the ST51 and LA46. If there's a boost port involved I might split it like I did on the ST51. It's working very well.

Quote from: Skip Chernoff on July 26, 2017, 05:32:15 AM

Brian I presently run an HP 40 in one of my ARF Noblers and it runs well. I'm going to use it at a contest this weekend. After the meet I'd be happy to send you the engine for your inspection and measurement. I'd prefer one timed to 4/2 break. Cheers,PhillySkip

tom hampshire · « **Reply #5 on:** July 26, 2017, 05:05:49 PM »

An even half dozen for me. Preferably split equally between 2-4 (say 138 ex, 124 in) and pipe (say 142 ex 124 in). If Randy would chime in as to the numbers, I'd go with his suggestion without question. Thanks, Brian!

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #6 on:** July 26, 2017, 05:29:49 PM »

I'd do the whole run at the same timing numbers Tom. Based on that would you still want 6? I used 126/138 for the ST51 and LA46. I'd imagine Randy's numbers would be pretty close to this.

Quote from: tom hampshire on July 26, 2017, 05:05:49 PM

An even half dozen for me. Preferably split equally between 2-4 (say 138 ex, 124 in) and pipe (say 142 ex 124 in). If Randy would chime in as to the numbers, I'd go with his suggestion without question. Thanks, Brian!

Istvan Travnik · « **Reply #7 on:** July 26, 2017, 05:52:42 PM »

Very interesting topic!
Excuse me for the question first: what do you mean on 4/2 break timing by the HP-40?

Here are my experiences with:
I used many pieces of HP-40 beginning with 1983, up till the end of 1999. Since it was designed originally to R/C, and best performance at 16-17,000 RPM all my pieces were modified, as follows:
-inlet 190° to 170° (some 1/48" thin aluminum "U" profile glued into the window of crankshaft)
-scavenging approx. 125° to 110° and outlet 155° to 140° by sinking down the liner, by machining 1/26" (!!) off the crankcase top
-compression rate adjusted to 1:9 by combustion chamber mod to "trumpet" shape, and thick gasket addition
-all cooling fins machined off from cylinderhead to avoid over-cooling*
-venturi dia. 5.0 millimeters to 5.4 millimeters (no spraybar, but nozzle!)
The engine loved best the 12x5 or 12x4 Tornado props, or wooden copies of them. (Pretty stronger than ST-46)
Fuel consumption was 130 ccm (4.6 fl.oz)
I loved them, and there is one piece still in use, in a 30 years old plane of me, sometimes I used to lend to friends.

*I observed, when the engine is hot enough, the 4-2-4 change is safe and quick enough, and can freely vary with venturi, silencer, etc.
Otherwise not. By a cast iron piston engine (Fox, Veco, etc.) this is not a question, but aluminum piston engines can be overcooled easily, mostly the Schnuerle systems. When the difference between outlet and scavenging is less than 2x15° or at least 2x13° the engine will be unaffordably weak, this is too high price for warm it up.

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #8 on:** July 26, 2017, 06:17:24 PM »

by 4/2 I mean 4-2-4 as you refer to it. I have used 126 transfers and 138 exhaust on many ABC setups with excellent results. The pistons being high Si al is not a problem in regards to temps either hot or cold. It's a proven formula.

Air Ministry . · « **Reply #9 on:** July 26, 2017, 07:32:31 PM »

Put the std. timing figures on the LA 46 post. might copy & paste.

Std the things ARE 140 Ex 120 In , cept the Gold Cup which is 144 ish etc .

The Usual Trick is to drop the LINER 0.6 mm , giving 130 Ex 110 In .

So maybe a lower timed liner with a sub flange .6 mm gasket for already machined cases .??

ALL MINE ( Four ) are R.P.R.'s and timing matches published figures . three are new . one a gold finned head , silver case .

Air Ministry . · « **Reply #10 on:** July 26, 2017, 07:36:13 PM »

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Air Ministry . · « **Reply #11 on:** July 26, 2017, 07:38:53 PM »

Air Ministry . · « **Reply #12 on:** July 26, 2017, 07:56:31 PM »

BAH ,
a picher of the infernal internals ( of someone else's ) filched from google .

Zee Vindow iss der zame , as iss al ov vee infernals , but the ones zat arnt .

Quote

The HP 40 R-PR, designed by Peter Billes and built since 1972 by Hirtenberger in Austria, was one of the first engines developed especially for pylon racing. Its sophisticated Schnuerle porting system was responsible for the remarkable power output of 0.89 kW at 21000 rpm. Thus it was able to surpass the K&B Torpedo models 70 and 71. The rear rotary disk intake system avoided lengthy gas passages and reduced the crankcase volume. But it still featured a ringed piston, which prohibited the use of wide port openings in the cylinder sleeve.

Note the cylinder timings the same as the Torpedo / K&B ,

THERE WAS AN A B C HP 40 later , Dunno how wot'n where etc .on Them .

Was a C/L , just a intake bunged in , far as I know .

more blather . was on the MERCO 35 Post , actually .

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/merco-35-abc-sets-expressions-of-interest/

scroll down there , if yr intrested .( or copy & paste it here )

=========================================================

Id only be intrested in 130/110 , stock case or dropped . MAYBE .

as it loafs along on a 11 x 5 or 11 x 4 , even in a 30 knot breeze , tho might there be not entirely loafing . Definately a three stage or better
' break ' , wether its 2-2-4-2-2 or wot , I couldnt tell ypu . And I dont know how much of it was my canister ( expansion chamber ) 10 x 3/32
holes .

The Suns Shinning , and the Hay needs making . Tallyho .

Air Ministry . · « **Reply #13 on:** July 26, 2017, 08:05:38 PM »

Why Not A A C , ringed or otherwise ??

Larry Fruits · « **Reply #14 on:** July 26, 2017, 10:04:50 PM »

Brian,
Put me down for one set, including head, if you make them.

Thanks;
Larry Fruits

Istvan Travnik · « **Reply #15 on:** July 27, 2017, 02:22:04 AM »

Quote from: Brian Gardner on July 26, 2017, 06:17:24 PM

by 4/2 I mean 4-2-4 as you refer to it. I have used 126 transfers and 138 exhaust on many ABC setups with excellent results. The pistons being high Si al is not a problem in regards to temps either hot or cold. It's a proven formula.

Der Brian, thanks for the explanation!
What can you say about the power of that engines, using this timing? (prop measures - RPM's with .40 and .51 engines, with effective silencer)

Offtopic: We, in Hungary used many pieces of HP-40 GC in eighties-nineties, since our Austrian neighbours brought them, directly from the factory

tom hampshire · « **Reply #16 on:** July 27, 2017, 06:12:22 AM »

Hi Brian - Yes, I'll take 6 sets. If we are restricted to only one timing choice, then the 2-4 timing is the clear choice because it permits the buyer to raise the exhausts by hand or mill for pipe use. Not so easy to lower an existing port

frank mccune · « **Reply #17 on:** July 27, 2017, 09:48:45 AM »

Hello Brian:

Kindly put me down for two sets.

Thanks,

Frank McCune

RandySmith · « **Reply #18 on:** July 27, 2017, 10:44:36 AM »

Quote from: Brian Gardner on July 26, 2017, 05:29:49 PM

I'd do the whole run at the same timing numbers Tom. Based on that would you still want 6? I used 126/138 for the ST51 and LA46. I'd imagine Randy's numbers would be pretty close to this.

Hi Brian
My numbers are close, so the ones above will work fine, and are similar to the Aero Tiger and PA
My split boost port design will work out great on the HP, So I would highly recommend you use it.
The steel sleeve version needed to be a tight press fit, but your Brass sleeve should be setup as a light finger press, as your brass liner is much closer to the expansion rate of the Aluminum case.
The stock FINNED head on the HP is excellent, and I would use it as is , if you make new ones, the only change I would make is to machine a heat dam around the glow plug, I would stay away from the slick, no fin head, its not optimum in a cl stunt engine, as there is no need to keep that much heat in the head as you throttle the card up and down in the rc version.
The stock rods in the HP are small and also very strong as they look to be forged, if you make new rods , I would make them thicker I-beam, like the PAs , or similar to the OS rods if I didn't do I-beam ones
I still have my P/S sets here, but as normal I will take 2 or 3 sets from you
PM or email me If you want to discuss anything else

regards
Randy

BYU · « **Reply #19 on:** July 27, 2017, 11:24:36 AM »

Increase mine to 6 sets total - Thanks

Air Ministry . · « **Reply #20 on:** July 27, 2017, 08:16:49 PM »

Suppose I'll be in for ONE , barring War , acts of God , etc .

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #21 on:** July 28, 2017, 12:38:29 AM »

Well based on the numbers so far it's clear we have enough for a small run of these.

Thanks for your input Randy, I'll split the boost port like I did with the ST51 depending on liner thickness and port width etc.. Thanks for the heads up on the rods too, I'll have a close look at that.

Now I just need a couple of sample engines to measure up. I'd need them for the duration of the first run which can be up to 6 months depending upon workload. Preferably with the finned head as Randy mentions. Someone please volunteer.

Brian

Arlan McKee · « **Reply #22 on:** July 28, 2017, 08:46:33 AM »

Brian,
I will take 2 sets. Heads would be nice as well. Both of the Silver Stars I have came with smooth heads.

Arlan

BYU · « **Reply #23 on:** July 28, 2017, 06:36:02 PM »

Ill send you 2 engines, one the Randy custom build and one the plain vanilla

Just need an address

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #24 on:** July 28, 2017, 08:20:45 PM »

Brian,
I would like one set of whatever you come up with for timing etc. I trust it will be great.

I might be interested in two sets if I can find another good HP 40.

Randy Cuberly

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #25 on:** July 28, 2017, 09:45:12 PM »

PM sent Mike.

Quote from: Bobs your Uncle on July 28, 2017, 06:36:02 PM

Ill send you 2 engines, one the Randy custom build and one the plain vanilla

Just need an address

RandySmith · « **Reply #26 on:** July 28, 2017, 11:10:07 PM »

Quote from: Randy Cuberly on July 28, 2017, 08:20:45 PM

Brian,
I would like one set of whatever you come up with for timing etc. I trust it will be great.

I might be interested in two sets if I can find another good HP 40.

Randy Cuberly

I have many HP 40s here, plus some parts

Randy

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #27 on:** August 01, 2017, 04:45:26 PM »

Anybody else wanting to get in on these? I'll need to finalise numbers in a few weeks.

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #28 on:** August 01, 2017, 05:03:15 PM »

Quote from: RandySmith on July 28, 2017, 11:10:07 PM

I have many HP 40s here, plus some parts

Randy

Randy,
Sent you a PM.

Randy C.

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #29 on:** August 11, 2017, 09:02:21 PM »

OK guys, I've got 2 sample engines for measurement etc. We've started on another batch of 50 LA46 sets, but we'll get started on these too.

I currently have requests for 22 sets. We'll make some extras but if you want to be certain of getting a set let me know so I can add you to the list & ensure I make enough of them.

They will be stunt timed, the rods will be beefed up a little, and I'll do some finned heads for those that have requested them.

Air Ministry . · « **Reply #30 on:** August 11, 2017, 09:29:43 PM »

Infera Head Too , Please .

If one of them Injuns is modded , ' one ' would assume the deck hight / Liner top flange seat , was dropped say 0.6 mm on that there .

as in Dimn from top of Ex Outlet , or top of case shaft tunnel , to Liner Top Seat would expect to differ between the two ?? .
( Might need a fixed hight spacer ( a bit of flat metal , if flange seats rebated , to cross check that dimension . $:-\$

As in the Deck Hight ;

WHICH WOULD BEAR ON THE ACTUAL TIMING . Hight from port top to flange etc .

Skip Chernoff · « **Reply #31 on:** August 12, 2017, 08:10:47 AM »

I'll take one set ,Thanks,PhillySkip

frank mccune · « **Reply #32 on:** August 12, 2017, 10:15:04 AM »

Hi

I am in for two.

FRank McCune

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #33 on:** August 12, 2017, 06:08:05 PM »

Hi brian,
I said 1 set earlier but Randy Smith has Hp's and I will buy another one from him so I will have a total of two (2) piston sleeve, etc set from you.

Thanks,
Randy Cuberly

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #34 on:** August 12, 2017, 06:18:39 PM »

Skip/Frank/Randy any of you want finned heads? I'll be making some of those too

frank mccune · « **Reply #35 on:** August 12, 2017, 06:32:21 PM »

Hello Brian:

At this point, I do not think that I need any finned heads. If I change my mind, I will contact you.

Sincerely,

Frank McCune

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #36 on:** August 12, 2017, 11:03:55 PM »

Quote from: Brian Gardner on August 12, 2017, 06:18:39 PM

Skip/Frank/Randy any of you want finned heads? I'll be making some of those too

Yes, one for each set of P/S's.

Thanks Randy Cuberly

frank mccune · « **Reply #37 on:** August 20, 2017, 01:39:59 PM »

Hello Brian:

Kindly add a head to my request for two HP .40 ABC pistons and sleeves.

Thank you,

Frank McCune

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #38 on:** August 21, 2017, 05:49:39 AM »

Copy that mate

Quote from: frank mccune on August 20, 2017, 01:39:59 PM

Hello Brian:

Kindly add a head to my request for two HP .40 ABC pistons and sleeves.

Thank you,

Frank McCune

Air Ministry . · « **Reply #39 on:** September 06, 2017, 07:32:38 AM »

More Drivle on the HP , NOT Drivle in fact , BUT . being cruel - I just bolted mine in , and used the dregs of a gallon of 20:80 , no nitro . In the Folkerts.

Somehow my 1969 ( which dont exist - Im sure it was stamped on the box , already had the .7 mm ' drop ' machined in , inadvertently ?? being a RPR .
Threw in a fred flinstone ( scissors & file ) 0.7 mm Alumn. head gasket , and a intake that'd turned up that day for my K&B , & drilled a hole in it .
A few very memorable flights that evening , on the Folkerts - after having done a few mid afternoon .

Only other note there ( April 79 M.A. )is Trim bearers 1/8 if spraybar through case . The FSR's wanted the tanks up 1/8 for even insides & outsides .

Skip Chernoff · « **Reply #40 on:** September 11, 2017, 05:44:44 AM »

NO finned head for me.I'm ok with the stock head. Thanks,PhillySkip

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #41 on:** September 11, 2017, 04:36:16 PM »

roger that mate

Quote from: Skip Chernoff on September 11, 2017, 05:44:44 AM

NO finned head for me.I'm ok with the stock head. Thanks,PhillySkip

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #42 on:** April 03, 2018, 05:50:50 PM »

Just an update.

I hope to have these ready in May. The kit will now include laser cut case gaskets.

Brian

Phil Spillman · « **Reply #43 on:** April 06, 2018, 07:39:38 PM »

Hi Brian, Please put me down for two sets with Heads for both! I think I tried to order these before but can't find any response to my request! I really only want two as stated herein not any more than that!

Thanks,

Phil Spillman

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #44 on:** April 08, 2018, 07:08:23 AM »

I already had you on the list for 2 x ABC sets, but not finned heads. I may be able to do the heads for you.

Brian

Quote from: Phil Spillman on April 06, 2018, 07:39:38 PM

Hi Brian, Please put me down for two sets with Heads for both! I think I tried to order these before but can't find any response to my request! I really only want two as stated herein not any more than that!

Thanks,

Phil Spillman

Phil Spillman · « **Reply #45 on:** April 08, 2018, 08:31:42 PM »

Hi Brian, If the standard heads aren't absolutely necessary to accommodate the new piston and sleeves, no need to do extra work just for my order! If new heads are needed to get a great run and you have the time fine! If not needed to run well then no need!

Many thanks!

Phil Spillman

Brian Gardner · « **Reply #46 on:** April 09, 2018, 04:59:15 AM »

Not a necessity Phil. The finned heads are said to give a more stable run, but a smooth head will fit.

Quote from: Phil Spillman on April 08, 2018, 08:31:42 PM

Hi Brian, If the standard heads aren't absolutely necessary to accommodate the new piston and sleeves, no need to do extra work just for my order! If new heads are needed to get a great run and you have the time fine! If not needed to run well then no need!

Many thanks!

Phil Spillman

Phil Spillman · « **Reply #47 on:** April 09, 2018, 08:16:35 PM »

Hi Brian, I sent a more definitive PM regarding the heads situation! Thanks again!

Phil Spillman