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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Brian Gardner on July 26, 2017, 02:17:03 AM
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OK guys, a heap of people over the years have requested I do ABC piston & liner sets for the HP 40.
These should be ready in May I hope.
The kit will include a stunt timed ABC piston/liner/rod/pin/shims/backplate & front case gaskets. There is an optional finned head with stock combustion chamber.
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Brian I presently run an HP 40 in one of my ARF Noblers and it runs well. I'm going to use it at a contest this weekend. After the meet I'd be happy to send you the engine for your inspection and measurement. I'd prefer one timed to 4/2 break. Cheers,PhillySkip
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Randy Smith set up numbers for this engine and I bet that his P&Ls would be the best to work from, I believe they are the same P&L sets that Tom Hampshire uses.
I can mail you a new HP 40 with the P&L set installed as set up by Randy Smith if it helps, I just need your address.
Maybe you would consider making heads as well?
I will take 5 sets of whatever you make.
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That sounds pretty good. I'd be happy to do heads as well.
Lets see how numbers go before we commit and post engines etc. I need at least 20 sets reserved on a list.
Brian
Randy Smith set up numbers for this engine and I bet that his P&Ls would be the best to work from, I believe they are the same P&L sets that Tom Hampshire uses.
I can mail you a new HP 40 with the P&L set installed as set up by Randy Smith if it helps, I just need your address.
Maybe you would consider making heads as well?
I will take 5 sets of whatever you make.
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4/2 timing is what I think I'd most likely go with. Probably the same as what I used for the ST51 and LA46. If there's a boost port involved I might split it like I did on the ST51. It's working very well.
Brian I presently run an HP 40 in one of my ARF Noblers and it runs well. I'm going to use it at a contest this weekend. After the meet I'd be happy to send you the engine for your inspection and measurement. I'd prefer one timed to 4/2 break. Cheers,PhillySkip
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An even half dozen for me. Preferably split equally between 2-4 (say 138 ex, 124 in) and pipe (say 142 ex 124 in). If Randy would chime in as to the numbers, I'd go with his suggestion without question. Thanks, Brian!
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I'd do the whole run at the same timing numbers Tom. Based on that would you still want 6? I used 126/138 for the ST51 and LA46. I'd imagine Randy's numbers would be pretty close to this.
An even half dozen for me. Preferably split equally between 2-4 (say 138 ex, 124 in) and pipe (say 142 ex 124 in). If Randy would chime in as to the numbers, I'd go with his suggestion without question. Thanks, Brian!
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Very interesting topic!
Excuse me for the question first: what do you mean on 4/2 break timing by the HP-40?
Here are my experiences with:
I used many pieces of HP-40 beginning with 1983, up till the end of 1999. Since it was designed originally to R/C, and best performance at 16-17,000 RPM all my pieces were modified, as follows:
-inlet 190° to 170° (some 1/48" thin aluminum "U" profile glued into the window of crankshaft)
-scavenging approx. 125° to 110° and outlet 155° to 140° by sinking down the liner, by machining 1/26" (!!) off the crankcase top
-compression rate adjusted to 1:9 by combustion chamber mod to "trumpet" shape, and thick gasket addition
-all cooling fins machined off from cylinderhead to avoid over-cooling*
-venturi dia. 5.0 millimeters to 5.4 millimeters (no spraybar, but nozzle!)
The engine loved best the 12x5 or 12x4 Tornado props, or wooden copies of them. (Pretty stronger than ST-46)
Fuel consumption was 130 ccm (4.6 fl.oz)
I loved them, and there is one piece still in use, in a 30 years old plane of me, sometimes I used to lend to friends.
*I observed, when the engine is hot enough, the 4-2-4 change is safe and quick enough, and can freely vary with venturi, silencer, etc.
Otherwise not. By a cast iron piston engine (Fox, Veco, etc.) this is not a question, but aluminum piston engines can be overcooled easily, mostly the Schnuerle systems. When the difference between outlet and scavenging is less than 2x15° or at least 2x13° the engine will be unaffordably weak, this is too high price for warm it up.
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by 4/2 I mean 4-2-4 as you refer to it. I have used 126 transfers and 138 exhaust on many ABC setups with excellent results. The pistons being high Si al is not a problem in regards to temps either hot or cold. It's a proven formula.
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Put the std. timing figures on the LA 46 post. might copy & paste.
Std the things ARE 140 Ex 120 In , cept the Gold Cup which is 144 ish etc .
The Usual Trick is to drop the LINER 0.6 mm , giving 130 Ex 110 In .
So maybe a lower timed liner with a sub flange .6 mm gasket for already machined cases .??
ALL MINE ( Four ) are R.P.R.'s and timing matches published figures . three are new . one a gold finned head , silver case .
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(http://sceptreflight.net/Model%20Engine%20Tests/HP%2040F%20Gold%20Cup%20page%201.jpg)
(http://sceptreflight.net/Model%20Engine%20Tests/HP%2040F%20Gold%20Cup%20page%202.jpg)
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(http://sceptreflight.net/Model%20Engine%20Tests/HP%2040R%20PR%20page%201.jpg)
(http://sceptreflight.net/Model%20Engine%20Tests/HP%2040R%20PR%20page%202.jpg)
(http://sceptreflight.net/Model%20Engine%20Tests/HP%2040R%20PR%20page%203.jpg)
(http://sceptreflight.net/Model%20Engine%20Tests/HP%2040R%20PR%20page%204.jpg)
(http://sceptreflight.net/Model%20Engine%20Tests/HP%2040R%20PR%20page%205.jpg)
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(http://sceptreflight.net/Model%20Engine%20Tests/HP%2040F%20RC%20page%201.jpg)
(http://sceptreflight.net/Model%20Engine%20Tests/HP%2040F%20RC%20page%201a.jpg)
(http://sceptreflight.net/Model%20Engine%20Tests/HP%2040F%20RC%20page%203.jpg)
(http://sceptreflight.net/Model%20Engine%20Tests/HP%2040F%20RC%20page%204.jpg)
(http://sceptreflight.net/Model%20Engine%20Tests/HP%2040F%20RC%20page%205.jpg)
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BAH ,
a picher of the infernal internals ( of someone else's ) filched from google .
(http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/images/hp40part.jpg)
Zee Vindow iss der zame , as iss al ov vee infernals , but the ones zat arnt .
The HP 40 R-PR, designed by Peter Billes and built since 1972 by Hirtenberger in Austria, was one of the first engines developed especially for pylon racing. Its sophisticated Schnuerle porting system was responsible for the remarkable power output of 0.89 kW at 21000 rpm. Thus it was able to surpass the K&B Torpedo models 70 and 71. The rear rotary disk intake system avoided lengthy gas passages and reduced the crankcase volume. But it still featured a ringed piston, which prohibited the use of wide port openings in the cylinder sleeve.
Note the cylinder timings the same as the Torpedo / K&B ,
THERE WAS AN A B C HP 40 later , Dunno how wot'n where etc .on Them .
Was a C/L , just a intake bunged in , far as I know .
more blather . was on the MERCO 35 Post , actually .
https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/merco-35-abc-sets-expressions-of-interest/
scroll down there , if yr intrested .( or copy & paste it here )
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Id only be intrested in 130/110 , stock case or dropped . MAYBE .
as it loafs along on a 11 x 5 or 11 x 4 , even in a 30 knot breeze , tho might there be not entirely loafing . Definately a three stage or better
' break ' , wether its 2-2-4-2-2 or wot , I couldnt tell ypu . And I dont know how much of it was my canister ( expansion chamber ) 10 x 3/32
holes .
The Suns Shinning , and the Hay needs making . Tallyho .
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Why Not A A C , ringed or otherwise ??
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Brian,
Put me down for one set, including head, if you make them.
Thanks;
Larry Fruits
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by 4/2 I mean 4-2-4 as you refer to it. I have used 126 transfers and 138 exhaust on many ABC setups with excellent results. The pistons being high Si al is not a problem in regards to temps either hot or cold. It's a proven formula.
Der Brian, thanks for the explanation!
What can you say about the power of that engines, using this timing? (prop measures - RPM's with .40 and .51 engines, with effective silencer)
Offtopic: We, in Hungary used many pieces of HP-40 GC in eighties-nineties, since our Austrian neighbours brought them, directly from the factory :):)
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Hi Brian - Yes, I'll take 6 sets. If we are restricted to only one timing choice, then the 2-4 timing is the clear choice because it permits the buyer to raise the exhausts by hand or mill for pipe use. Not so easy to lower an existing port
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Hello Brian:
Kindly put me down for two sets.
Thanks,
Frank McCune
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I'd do the whole run at the same timing numbers Tom. Based on that would you still want 6? I used 126/138 for the ST51 and LA46. I'd imagine Randy's numbers would be pretty close to this.
Hi Brian
My numbers are close, so the ones above will work fine, and are similar to the Aero Tiger and PA
My split boost port design will work out great on the HP, So I would highly recommend you use it.
The steel sleeve version needed to be a tight press fit, but your Brass sleeve should be setup as a light finger press, as your brass liner is much closer to the expansion rate of the Aluminum case.
The stock FINNED head on the HP is excellent, and I would use it as is , if you make new ones, the only change I would make is to machine a heat dam around the glow plug, I would stay away from the slick, no fin head, its not optimum in a cl stunt engine, as there is no need to keep that much heat in the head as you throttle the card up and down in the rc version.
The stock rods in the HP are small and also very strong as they look to be forged, if you make new rods , I would make them thicker I-beam, like the PAs , or similar to the OS rods if I didn't do I-beam ones
I still have my P/S sets here, but as normal I will take 2 or 3 sets from you
PM or email me If you want to discuss anything else
regards
Randy
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Increase mine to 6 sets total - Thanks
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Suppose I'll be in for ONE , barring War , acts of God , etc . H^^
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Well based on the numbers so far it's clear we have enough for a small run of these.
Thanks for your input Randy, I'll split the boost port like I did with the ST51 depending on liner thickness and port width etc.. Thanks for the heads up on the rods too, I'll have a close look at that.
Now I just need a couple of sample engines to measure up. I'd need them for the duration of the first run which can be up to 6 months depending upon workload. Preferably with the finned head as Randy mentions. Someone please volunteer.
Brian
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Brian,
I will take 2 sets. Heads would be nice as well. Both of the Silver Stars I have came with smooth heads.
Arlan
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Ill send you 2 engines, one the Randy custom build and one the plain vanilla
Just need an address
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Brian,
I would like one set of whatever you come up with for timing etc. I trust it will be great.
I might be interested in two sets if I can find another good HP 40.
Randy Cuberly
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PM sent Mike.
Ill send you 2 engines, one the Randy custom build and one the plain vanilla
Just need an address
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Brian,
I would like one set of whatever you come up with for timing etc. I trust it will be great.
I might be interested in two sets if I can find another good HP 40.
Randy Cuberly
I have many HP 40s here, plus some parts
Randy
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Anybody else wanting to get in on these? I'll need to finalise numbers in a few weeks.
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I have many HP 40s here, plus some parts
Randy
Randy,
Sent you a PM.
Randy C.
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OK guys, I've got 2 sample engines for measurement etc. We've started on another batch of 50 LA46 sets, but we'll get started on these too.
I currently have requests for 22 sets. We'll make some extras but if you want to be certain of getting a set let me know so I can add you to the list & ensure I make enough of them.
They will be stunt timed, the rods will be beefed up a little, and I'll do some finned heads for those that have requested them.
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Infera Head Too , Please .
If one of them Injuns is modded , ' one ' would assume the deck hight / Liner top flange seat , was dropped say 0.6 mm on that there .
as in Dimn from top of Ex Outlet , or top of case shaft tunnel , to Liner Top Seat would expect to differ between the two ?? .
( Might need a fixed hight spacer ( a bit of flat metal , if flange seats rebated , to cross check that dimension . :-\
As in the Deck Hight ;(http://victorylibrary.com/graphics/deck-height.jpg) WHICH WOULD BEAR ON THE ACTUAL TIMING . Hight from port top to flange etc .
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I'll take one set ,Thanks,PhillySkip
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Hi
I am in for two.
FRank McCune
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Hi brian,
I said 1 set earlier but Randy Smith has Hp's and I will buy another one from him so I will have a total of two (2) piston sleeve, etc set from you.
Thanks,
Randy Cuberly
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Skip/Frank/Randy any of you want finned heads? I'll be making some of those too
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Hello Brian:
At this point, I do not think that I need any finned heads. If I change my mind, I will contact you.
Sincerely,
Frank McCune
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Skip/Frank/Randy any of you want finned heads? I'll be making some of those too
Yes, one for each set of P/S's.
Thanks Randy Cuberly
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Hello Brian:
Kindly add a head to my request for two HP .40 ABC pistons and sleeves.
Thank you,
Frank McCune
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Copy that mate
Hello Brian:
Kindly add a head to my request for two HP .40 ABC pistons and sleeves.
Thank you,
Frank McCune
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More Drivle on the HP , NOT Drivle in fact , BUT . being cruel - I just bolted mine in , and used the dregs of a gallon of 20:80 , no nitro . In the Folkerts.
(http://library.modelaviation.com/system/files/styles/zoom1800/private/ma/ma197904/ma197904_108.jpg?itok=q-kUIaql)
Somehow my 1969 ( which dont exist - Im sure it was stamped on the box , already had the .7 mm ' drop ' machined in , inadvertently ?? being a RPR .
Threw in a fred flinstone ( scissors & file ) 0.7 mm Alumn. head gasket , and a intake that'd turned up that day for my K&B , & drilled a hole in it .
A few very memorable flights that evening , on the Folkerts - after having done a few mid afternoon .
Only other note there ( April 79 M.A. )is Trim bearers 1/8 if spraybar through case . The FSR's wanted the tanks up 1/8 for even insides & outsides .
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NO finned head for me.I'm ok with the stock head. Thanks,PhillySkip
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roger that mate
NO finned head for me.I'm ok with the stock head. Thanks,PhillySkip
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Just an update.
I hope to have these ready in May. The kit will now include laser cut case gaskets.
Brian
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Hi Brian, Please put me down for two sets with Heads for both! I think I tried to order these before but can't find any response to my request! I really only want two as stated herein not any more than that!
Thanks,
Phil Spillman
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I already had you on the list for 2 x ABC sets, but not finned heads. I may be able to do the heads for you.
Brian
Hi Brian, Please put me down for two sets with Heads for both! I think I tried to order these before but can't find any response to my request! I really only want two as stated herein not any more than that!
Thanks,
Phil Spillman
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Hi Brian, If the standard heads aren't absolutely necessary to accommodate the new piston and sleeves, no need to do extra work just for my order! If new heads are needed to get a great run and you have the time fine! If not needed to run well then no need!
Many thanks!
Phil Spillman
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Not a necessity Phil. The finned heads are said to give a more stable run, but a smooth head will fit.
Hi Brian, If the standard heads aren't absolutely necessary to accommodate the new piston and sleeves, no need to do extra work just for my order! If new heads are needed to get a great run and you have the time fine! If not needed to run well then no need!
Many thanks!
Phil Spillman
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Hi Brian, I sent a more definitive PM regarding the heads situation! Thanks again!
Phil Spillman