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Author Topic: Howard Rush's flaps  (Read 10851 times)

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2009, 11:32:22 AM »
So now the argument is that any old thing will fly where we fly, but to fly in Texas, you gotta know what you're doing. 
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2009, 11:37:41 AM »
Howard has it been that long since you flown in the central and southern part of this country?  I have flown in Kansas, Colorado, Texas, Missouri and a lot of other places.  One plane, one engine, one fuel and almost every time it was a change of prop to make a difference even if I don't fly that well.  DOC Holliday

PS:Besides haven't you heard everything is better in Texas or is it bigger.  jeh
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2009, 11:56:22 AM »
It would seem to me that with partial span flaps, you would have TWO tip vortices. Since the vortice are created at the termination area of the area where the AOA changes, there would be one at the flap end, and another at the actual wingtip/
whether they would both add to eaqual the same drag as full length flaps I dont know, but I can certainly see how having two vortice coming off each panel would be interesting.
I still dont see where drag is the major issue here either, truly, with more power than a fox 35 S?P, I think power is not really an issue. It is more about what you feel and can respond to at the handle that is important. Small flaps deflected more, large flaps deflected less.... which feels better for YOU and your airplane. IMHO
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2009, 12:27:35 PM »
So now the argument is that any old thing will fly where we fly, but to fly in Texas, you gotta know what you're doing. 

no

you need to have more power, pitch, or lift...  Or all the above.

I did not know was "arguing" either.  I told you what I found. 
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
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Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #54 on: August 06, 2009, 12:37:48 PM »
Spain was it?  I seem to recall a good flyer from your area resorting to going heavy to the nitro bottle in his 75...

I would guess he was starting to see Dallas summer like conditions.

Ask bob g...  He will tell you...
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Online Paul Walker

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #55 on: August 06, 2009, 01:15:32 PM »


I would really like to see if you would have the same opinion in Dallas when it is 104....about the time you hit that second square eight.  All those darn corners... and that motor just keeps slowwwwwwwing downnnnnnnn... trying to keep the speed of the airplane up.  It is pretty simple really.


Well, I flew in Vallidolid Spain in 2006. It was 105 in the afternoons every day, and the facility was at 2000 foot altitude. Depending of the daily atmospheric pressures, this translates to a higher density altitude that Dallas. My plane flew well enough for a 3rd place there. There was a difference between the 75 degree mornings and the 105 degree afternoons, but there was nothing to make it unflyable.

I also flew in '84 in Reno.  again, over 100 degrees every day, and it was 5000 foot altitude. I flew the same plane that I used in '83 (Chicopee, Ma) and it flew quite well. I did have to go to 30% Vitamin N though.

If your engins keeps slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwinggggggggggg downnnnnnnnnnnn, then I suspect there is something wrong there. I didn't experience that problem in either high density altitude competition previously.

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #56 on: August 06, 2009, 01:25:47 PM »
If you'd cut your flaps, rather than Band-Aiding it with nitro, you could have brought home the bacon. 
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #57 on: August 06, 2009, 01:27:57 PM »
In Spain, that is.  I guess you squeeked by in Reno.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #58 on: August 06, 2009, 01:41:14 PM »
Didn't anybody pick up on the suggestion of one partial-span flap and one full-span flap?
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Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #59 on: August 06, 2009, 02:25:05 PM »
You are all right...  I said full span flaps don't fly in thin air.  That is exactly what I said.  

I also said everyone else should cut their flaps...  

Good lord...  I think I said that *I* would not be using them in the future due to the greater drag and need for more power (since I am liking using milder engines), which is a very specific explanation and not a judgment on anyone else.  

I never said they were *bad* or *did not work well* given the power requirements.  Quite the contrary, they obviously work VERY WELL and there is vast track record to prove it.

In fact, Paul appeared to agree with my assessment.  Paul you would indeed NEED 30% nitro in Dallas to keep from sllooooooowwwwingggg dooowwwn given the obligatory OS 40 VF and a 65 oz Impact (or just do like everyone here and go to a 75 for that design).  You would also not have that crispy turn you get back home.  You would also be flying slower at the same pitch and all of a sudden you would need to fly faster lap times to perform like you do on the West Coast.  I never said anything about being "unflyable"...  

I managed to fly those designs here for several years (with big engines).

So, why all the comments like I am running you guys down?  I am not!!!

PS:  Hey Paul, isn't your new electric motor equal to a 90 IC engine?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 02:55:25 PM by Bradley Walker »
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #60 on: August 06, 2009, 02:33:44 PM »
Guys,

The drag we're "discussing" here (flap size, deflection, etc.) is -- as Howard so nicely pointed out -- induced drag, or the drag that is the byproduct of producing the lift required to carry the weight (multiplied by the G load) necessary to perform the mission of the airplane.

The key word there is "necessary".  With our control systems the amount of lift (and, thus) induced drag we produce is not necessarily equal to the lift (and, therefore, induced drag) necessary to do our tricks.  The flaps are deflected solely based on the amount of elevator input that is demanded by the pilot.  The resulting lift that deflection drives the wing to produce can be 1. too little, 2. just right 3.  too much; all based on how much the flaps are deflected by the demands of the elevator input. All too often we produce more lift than required to perform a given trick and that complicates the trim process as a result.

For a given amount of lift produced the drag which results from a given wing will vary only modestly based on whether that lift is gained through cambering (deflecting flaps) or a higher angle of attack or a greater speed (the three variables we can work with).  If the lift produced is regulated to closely match the lift required from a nominal five to one aspect ratio wing the drag produced will be fractionally close to one another (aspect ratio, on the other hand, can make a huge difference).

To do the "job" with shorter span flaps will require a bit more angle of attack and vice versa.  The resulting drag will be in the same ballpark regardless.

Stick forces are affected by the amount of lift in excess of that required we develop by not having a proper trim relationship between the flaps (of whatever size or configuration) and the lift necessary.  They are also affected by the location of the CG relative to the lift they produce.  This is like a dog chasing its tail … the more forward the CG the more elevator required thus the more flap deflected and the more lift and drag produced.  BAAAAADDDD!

Stick  forces are also affected by the aspect ratios of the movable surfaces.  This is not a huge issue with any “normal” distribution of flapped span for a given amount of flap area.  If, however, you attempted to get half span flaps of the same area as large full span flaps the aspect ratio (and thus the torque required of the control system to deflect them is substantially greater.  Just envision 150 square inches of flap on the inboard ¼ of each span.  You’ll quickly get a mental picture of how much more difficult it will be to deflect such fat narrow surfaces.

Again, within reason, it’s not something that will be disabling but IT IS A FACT of physics.

Here’s an example.  For years I sailed an Aqua Cat (sort of an old man’s Hobie Cat) catamaran out of my back yard.  This had a retractable rudder of approximately a four to one aspect ratio that was retractable at the waterline thus reconfiguring itself to a one to four aspect ratio.  It was possible to “steer” with the rudder in either configuration.  The difference was that in the normal extended configuration it required very modest, nearly light tiller pressure to deflect clear up to its maximum.  It was also very powerful in directing the yaw of the boat in that configuration.

In the “up”, low aspect ratio position, it was very difficult to deflect and very inefficient at steering the boat.  At speed I wasn’t strong enough to steer to any degree at all.

This is clearly an extreme example but is, nonetheless, indicative of the physical realities involved in wide chord versus narrow chord flaps on a stunt ship.  It IS a real phenomenon.

Good discussion.

Ted

Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #61 on: August 06, 2009, 02:39:07 PM »
Not being a super aero engineer I have a question:

Flaps for a fixed chord are more efficient at the root than at the tip.  Right or wrong?
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #62 on: August 06, 2009, 02:51:00 PM »
You might restate the question.  Do you mean effective? 
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Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #63 on: August 06, 2009, 02:53:41 PM »
You might restate the question.  Do you mean effective? 

Anyone else?

Bueler?  Bueler?  Effective?  Bueler?  Bueler?


"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #64 on: August 06, 2009, 02:55:19 PM »
Sigh...  living where you live, I doubt you have any problems making thrust or HP.

Of course, the West Coasters have to go UP in nitro when they visit Muncie, we Texans have to go DOWN.  In fact, many of my friends think Muncie is the supreme source of power, thrust, and lift, and have never experienced anything better.  While your friends complain about how they are down on power compared to home.

I would really like to see if you would have the same opinion in Dallas when it is 104....about the time you hit that second square eight.  All those darn corners... and that motor just keeps slowwwwwwwing downnnnnnnn... trying to keep the speed of the airplane up.  It is pretty simple really.


Oh for Pete’s sake Brad.  Nobody’s “complaining”.  It (the difference in density altitude) is simply a fact of life.  By definition, we tune our ships at our home site and have to adapt when we go elsewhere … no different than Texans that travel to fly stunt. Nitro is simply the easiest way of adapting to the change.  You do what you’ve got to do and don’t try to make some sort of political “hay” out of the fact that others do so as well.

If you think Paul doesn’t adapt pretty well to just about every condition imaginable, with all due respect I’d suggest you haven’t been paying very close attention to events outside of Dallas.
Ted


Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #65 on: August 06, 2009, 03:00:50 PM »
Oh my gawd...  what did I say now???? :-[

I think the word Brett used was "gutless".  Sounded like a complaint to me at the time...  if not forgive my abrupt judgment.

I remember when putting 15% nitro in a stunt engine was heresy...  much less 30%.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #66 on: August 06, 2009, 03:23:00 PM »
Not being a super aero engineer I have a question:

Flaps for a fixed chord are more efficient at the root than at the tip.  Right or wrong?

I imagine they are more effective at the root, since they have the energized air from the propeller disc blasting over them.  Kind of like BLC flaps in an F-4.
Steve

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #67 on: August 06, 2009, 03:26:25 PM »
Guys,


...Stick forces are affected by the amount of lift in excess of that required we develop by not having a proper trim relationship between the flaps (of whatever size or configuration) and the lift necessary.  They are also affected by the location of the CG relative to the lift they produce.  This is like a dog chasing its tail … the more forward the CG the more elevator required thus the more flap deflected and the more lift and drag produced.  BAAAAADDDD!...


Ted


Careful!  This seems alarmingly close to slipping over the precipice of rearward cg and the horror of lifting tails!  Who knows what arguments might ensue! S?P
Steve

Online Paul Walker

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #68 on: August 06, 2009, 05:07:57 PM »

Careful!  This seems alarmingly close to slipping over the precipice of rearward cg and the horror of lifting tails! 

How many "Sparkies" will that take!   LL~

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #69 on: August 06, 2009, 06:06:52 PM »
Steve and Paul,

My lips are sealed!

Ted

Online Paul Walker

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #70 on: August 07, 2009, 01:14:52 PM »
no

you need to have more power, pitch, or lift...  Or all the above.

I did not know was "arguing" either.  I told you what I found. 

Per my Websters II dictionary, the first definition of augue is: To offer reasons for or against:debate.
That's how I interpreted the statement...

Nothing more.  I think you used the 3rd definition:  To engage in a quarrel: dispute.


None the less, my earlier comments were with respect to your sagging engine run. Something must be wrong .

As far as the electric power goes, yes, it is powerful.  The system I started with was supposed to simulate a 90. I have no doubt that it could swing a 16" prop, as I had a 14*8 on it and it didn't care. Running too much power will put the batteries at risk.

I limit my prop to a 13.5 * 7 now. No issues with that!
Further, to reduce weight, I have gone to 2 sizes smaller motor, and it is still able to swing the 13.5 * 7 easily. I have also reduced the size of the battery and saved another 3 ounces.

With this setup, it still produced more power than Howard's RJ 65 Impact.  Yes Howard, it's more like dT/dt that I feel, not HP. I flew tham back to back to back to back last weekend. The two planes were only 1 ounce different.  I'll take the electric any day. I think I can count the number of bad motor runs I have had in the last 3 years on one hand, or at most both of my hands.

Plus with electric, I can play with just about any prop I want to. Sometimes I have to switch motors (different KV rating) to get the speed I need. Easy enough to do.

Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #71 on: August 07, 2009, 02:00:40 PM »
I limit my prop to a 13.5 * 7 now. No issues with that!

Don't you whip up furiously in the wind? ;D

Given the fact that you can run any prop you want, why don't you run the 3.5-4 pitch props?  Aren't they the best? S?P
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 02:25:07 PM by Bradley Walker »
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Online Paul Walker

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #72 on: August 07, 2009, 05:55:30 PM »


Don't you whip up furiously in the wind?

The simple answer is NO. That was exactly my first concern, but electrics simply don't work the same way as gas motors.  The ESC will only let them go so fast, back driven or not.

Given the fact that you can run any prop you want, why don't you run the 3.5-4 pitch props?  Aren't they the best?

Once again, I thought the exact same thing. However, with electrics, I can try just about anything I want, and I have.  I have found no advantage to lower pitch props running with electric.  In fact, I have run the 40 VF prop (11.3 * 4) on an electric Impact, and it flew MUCH like the Impacts of old.  I'm still keeping that approach in my back pocket for dead still days!  For now, it's a 13.5 * 7 on the larger electrics, and about a 13*6 on the regular Impact size electric.

Offline Crist Rigotti

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #73 on: August 07, 2009, 10:22:54 PM »
Paul,
Have you tried a "pusher" prop yet?
Crist
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2009, 07:53:37 PM »
I would like to thank everyone for your concern about my airplane.  All the discussion, particularly the loud cursing from 70 feet away, was causing my airplane to have low self-esteem.  It was particularly self-conscious about its flaps-- to the point of considering flap-reduction surgery, as many of you counseled.  I have been working with it, though, and with professional help it now feels much better about its flaps, and I think it is happy again. 
The Jive Combat Team
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #75 on: August 09, 2009, 07:10:11 AM »
Howard, if you think your plane needs a good home instead of the pound, I will gladly take it.  I would give it tender care and never abuse it by flying it.   LL~ LL~ LL~DOC Holliday
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Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #76 on: August 09, 2009, 08:31:46 AM »
With this setup, it still produced more power than Howard's RJ 65 Impact.  Yes Howard, it's more like dT/dt that I feel, not HP. I flew tham back to back to back to back last weekend. The two planes were only 1 ounce different. 

Wet or dry?

Because if you mean dry weight, Howard's is heavier at launch by about 6 oz.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Howard Rush's flaps
« Reply #77 on: August 09, 2009, 11:48:37 AM »
Happy stunters lack intestinal fortitude.

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