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Author Topic: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?  (Read 4631 times)

Online kevin king

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How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« on: May 28, 2025, 06:47:28 AM »
How do I remove the crankshaft from an LA 46? I Got the backplate, head and cylinder sleeve off, but can't get the connecting rod off the crankshaft pin

Kevin

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2025, 07:06:14 AM »
If you have the sleeve out, which you do, the rod should slide back on the wrist pin.  However, it may need some coaxing.  Grab it with an Allen wrench (hex key), possibly grabbing the Allen wrench with vise grips.  In a really tough case where the piston pin is frozen, some heat and/or a hot antifreeze treatment may be indicated.  Regardless, it can be done. 

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2025, 07:23:48 AM »
   Yep, the cylinder liner must come out first. They aren't usually very tight. If it's a well used engine, it may be stuck a bit but a heat gun or crock pot treatment should loosen it up. Sometimes they come up with the head when removing that because it's a pretty close fit. When reassembling the engine, there is a slot in the liner lip that lines up with a roll pin in the cylinder, and care must be taken to make sure that the liner doesn't slip and end up on top of the pin. I have seen engines where that has happened.

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Offline Doug Moisuk

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2025, 11:51:04 AM »
Should the crank pin be at the top or bottom when removing the connecting rod? Also if the crank was broken in a crash did it move back and now need to go forward to remove the connecting rod.
Doug Moisuk
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Offline Motorman

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2025, 09:26:46 PM »
It's a plain bushing engine so you need to pull the crank forward as you hold the engine so the back plate opening is down then pull and rock the conrod with your fingers. should come right out. Crank pin can be at the top or bottom as long as you can get a grip.

MM :)
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Online kevin king

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2025, 11:30:05 PM »
Thanks MM. I've decided to keep the crankshaft in, for now. The reason I wanted to replace it was because I was grinding off a metal prop bushing that was stuck on the shaft. After I got the bushing off I seen this.

Offline Motorman

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2025, 04:38:41 PM »
Still looks useable.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2025, 05:13:08 PM »
Thanks MM. I've decided to keep the crankshaft in, for now. The reason I wanted to replace it was because I was grinding off a metal prop bushing that was stuck on the shaft. After I got the bushing off I seen this.

    !!

     Brett

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2025, 07:41:29 AM »
With the sleeve out you need to slide the rod over on the wrist pin as far as you can and then it will slip off the crank. If it one move over put a little carb cleaner on the wrist pin and let it sit. In a few minutes it should slide over, only just a tiny bit is needed.

I would not run that crank. But that's just me.

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Online bill bischoff

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2025, 09:30:35 AM »
I like to put a medium size tie wrap (or zip tie if you prefer) around the conrod as a finger ring for pulling the rod to the rear. Fuel makes as good a solvent as anything else to free up the rod on the wrist pin. Just remember, it will take longer to fix your airplane and engine if the crank fails, than it will take to just fix the engine now.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2025, 09:53:44 AM »
I like to put a medium size tie wrap (or zip tie if you prefer) around the conrod as a finger ring for pulling the rod to the rear. Fuel makes as good a solvent as anything else to free up the rod on the wrist pin. Just remember, it will take longer to fix your airplane and engine if the crank fails, than it will take to just fix the engine now.

   +1 on that one! No way would I run that as it is, unless there was absolutely no other option (i.e. it happened at a contest and you have no spares - which means, carry spares and take it easy with cutoff wheels!).

    Brett

p.s.

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Offline Motorman

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2025, 05:59:31 PM »
Of the two crankshafts linked, which one vibrates less, the billet or the forged.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2025, 09:24:27 PM »
Of the two crankshafts linked, which one vibrates less, the billet or the forged.

   I have no idea, I was a little surprised that they were different. The forged might be aftermarket, the billet is an original OS part. I haven't taken apart any of my 46LAs (since there is nothing wrong with them and two of them are NIB), maybe it is a different production run. I can't see why anyone would bother to make aftermarket parts for it.

    What I do know is that neither of them is cut 10% of the way through the weakest point with a Dremel cutoff wheel.

      Brett

Offline spare_parts

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2025, 03:06:56 PM »
Crank evolution.

https://stunthanger.com/smf/engine-set-up-tips/la40-vs-la46/msg535906/#msg535906

Someone must have had a stuck spinner bushing?
Greg

Offline M Spencer

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2025, 06:25:28 PM »


These are the first series 35 / 40 FP crank . Woulda been Iron Piston , so with the later lighter piston , they didnt need to bother wwith the elaborate machineing .
All three are interchangeable . NOW I will have to see if the .46 shakes WORSE with the fullycounterweighted crank and the light piston .

Theyre on ebay as 35 FP cranks , at $ 16 each . And at least need a good clean & polish .

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2025, 04:14:25 PM »


These are the first series 35 / 40 FP crank . Woulda been Iron Piston , so with the later lighter piston , they didnt need to bother wwith the elaborate machineing .
All three are interchangeable . NOW I will have to see if the .46 shakes WORSE with the fullycounterweighted crank and the light piston .

Theyre on ebay as 35 FP cranks , at $ 16 each . And at least need a good clean & polish .

Be curious to see how that plays out. Keep up posted.
Doug Moon
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Offline Motorman

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2025, 08:46:04 PM »
An FP 35 has the same stroke as an LA46? One must be under squared or over squared.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2025, 12:37:12 AM »
The .46 is WAY over square. Timing makes more difference in torque than bore/stroke ratio. Bore/stroke ratio certainly can enable higher rpm, but timing is important there, too. I seem to recall the .46LA bore is .706", but don't quote me on that.  D>K  Steve
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Online Lauri Malila

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2025, 01:07:08 AM »
One thing in common between many succesfull ”old school” stunt engines is that they are often bored out versions of smaller engines. For example ST.40 >.46 and LA.40>46.
As you increase the bore in same carter, at the same time you decrease the cross area of scavenging which seems to be beneficial for low-rpm scavenging.
Bored-out case has also less mass as a heat sink, that is a good thing too unless you compromise the rigidity.
Of course also the shorter stroke is beneficial for low-rpm scavenging but the difference in this scale is very small, I’d say homeopathic. L


Online kevin king

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2025, 05:22:05 AM »
Good info guys. Relevant is the crankshaft balance. This is a reworked LA 46, and I was wondering if he modified or balanced the crankshaft. I did order an original stock crankshaft for it because it seemed the notch I ground into it is offsetting the spinner backplate a small amount. An offset 3 blade aluminum spinner could be a vibration problem. It's off-putting. 😄 Flying season is here and  I should be flying it!

Online kevin king

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2025, 06:50:09 AM »
What is over squared, under squared mean?

Online kevin king

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2025, 07:31:37 AM »
This whole grinding a notch in the crankshaft wouldn't have happened if props and spinner holes fit properly. I'm open to suggestions of what you all use to remedy this problem. Also how much slop is rejectable with spinner and prop holes being slightly oversized?
Thanks.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2025, 09:45:59 AM »
This whole grinding a notch in the crankshaft wouldn't have happened if props and spinner holes fit properly. I'm open to suggestions of what you all use to remedy this problem. Also how much slop is rejectable with spinner and prop holes being slightly oversized?
Thanks.

   It can tolerate a fair bit of slop, if you had .010 clearance, it would be perfectly fine. Not that I would recommend it but I have seen people run props with 5/16" bores on 1/4" shafts and just eyeballing the centering.

    But far more to the point - I have never seen one of those rings get more than slightly tight, well within "prying range" with a small screwdriver. And I am pretty sure they do not shrink once they get on the shaft, so if it seem tight to the point you have to use more than a slight finger push to get it on, do something (like debur the edges or slightly sand the bore) so it takes at most a very light push.

     But, suppose it does get stuck? The ring is aluminum, the shaft is steel. Just touch the ring with a hot soldering iron, and it will expand immediately  and probably fall off. Failing that, or in the field, you can take a small file or a zona saw and file/cut through it, gently, until it is thin enough to split when you pry on it. So you should never have to touch the steel itself. Even if you do, a zona saw will just skid across the crankshaft surface with no damage while dulling the saw. The file may be able to bite it a bit, but you don't need to apply any real pressure to get through the ring. Even if there is slight damage, it be <<.001 and smooth, which doesn't affect the crank in any significant way.  In either case, you go carefully and gently using just enough effort.

    A Dremel cut-off wheel is a vicious tool that will cut through anything you have in your house, it chops spring steel music wire like butter, and they are notoriously hard to control. It is very useful and irreplaceable for a small subset of modeling tasks, I use mine about 3x a year for various things.

      All that is required in this case is to cut through .032 x1/8" aluminum. Push comes to shove, you could probably carve the aluminum away with a good pocket knife or a wood chisel. Using the cutoff wheel, it is utterly inevitable that something like what happened will happen. You have fairly deep cuts with sharp edges in what is probably a case-hardened or induction-hardened peice of steel, right at the base of the thread relief, so the chances that it will crack is pretty high, which is why Doug, me, and others suggest you just get a new one since they are <$30. My guess is that it would *probably* work for while, but its spinning 11000 RPM with a razor sharp blade and you are right in front of it, that is a chance I would not take.

   No one is trying to "pile on" here, but this is a classic case.    Almost nothing good can possibly come of taking power tools to a model engine, drills, grinders, etc, are not necessary to operate one. The exceptions already know who they are and if you have to ask yourself if you are one of them, then, you aren't. That means everyone reading this now, and I include myself.   What usually happens is what happened here, the solution is the same in most cases - replace the damaged part with a new one.

      Brett

p.s If you think getting stuck is an on-going problem, Zona saw, the miracle tool, solves the problem in 5 seconds. Tru-Turn 3/8-5/16 bushing (that someone, NOT ME, tried to get off with a pair of water-pump pliers before I  came along..), diagonal cut through with thinnest Zona saw:



« Last Edit: June 08, 2025, 10:55:45 AM by Brett Buck »

Online Brett Buck

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2025, 10:00:43 AM »
What is over squared, under squared mean?

   The ratio of bore to stroke, oversquare means he bore is larger than the stroke, undersquare, the bore is smaller than the stroke. Most modern IC engines are approximately "square" meaning the bore is about equal to the stroke.

    As above, this is one of those engine design features that seems to be really important and revealing. It isn't, a radically undersquare engine (long-stroke) doesn't "give you more torque", necessarily, you are getting more "lever arm, like a cheater bar!" but also reducing the force on the piston because it is smaller than it would have been to get the same displacement. Using the same crank for a 35 and a 46 means that the bore/stroke ratio changes, the stroke stays the same and piston gets bigger.

     It is not at all clear that any of this matters very much within  a usable range. Lauri's observation is interesting, but there are plenty of exceptions because all these other things matter more. OS has almost always had engines with the same crank but different bore in the same case, so the piston gets bigger, the liner gets thinner. The classic examples are the 20 and 25FP, 35FP-46LA range, 40/45 FSR etc. It's easier since displacement goes with the square of the piston diameter, but only linearly with the stroke. So make the piston/line slightly larger and you get a decent increase in the displacement and power.

     Brett

Online Brett Buck

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2025, 10:25:50 AM »
The .46 is WAY over square. Timing makes more difference in torque than bore/stroke ratio. Bore/stroke ratio certainly can enable higher rpm,

    The important thing about that statement is *why* it "enables" higher RPM. It helps by reducing the velocity and acceleration of the piston, so reduces the load on the crank pin, conrod, wrist pin, etc. from yanking it back and forth at the engine RPM. But it also increases the force from the combustion chamber (since the piston surface area is larger and - presumably -  the combustion pressure is the same. I doubt either of these is terribly important for a model engine, particularly a 46LA, which is a pretty mild RC sport engine, since the overall strength of the parts is probably vast overkill.

   It will stop breathing long before you get the RPM high enough to worry about the loads on the reciprocating parts. 

      Brett

Online kevin king

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2025, 10:27:26 AM »
Unfortunately Brett it was a steel bushing and the 100 watt soldering I used to heat failed to loosen it. I guess some of the thin CA glue I used to glue the bushing into the prop must have leaked on the shaft. I took a chance installing it not completely dry because I wanted the bushing to be exactly 90 degrees with the shaft. Live and learn.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2025, 11:19:31 AM »
Unfortunately Brett it was a steel bushing and the 100 watt soldering I used to heat failed to loosen it. I guess some of the thin CA glue I used to glue the bushing into the prop must have leaked on the shaft. I took a chance installing it not completely dry because I wanted the bushing to be exactly 90 degrees with the shaft. Live and learn.

   So, acetone/lacquer thinner/dope thinner. I have never seen one of those made of steel, even back in the good old days, bu files work on steel - a square needle file to make a groove deep enough to get a screwdriver blade in and crack it in half. With care, you would never have to touch the crankshaft itself. Tight/interference fits are not necessary, if it comes up again, make sure there is adequate (and positive) clearance. Not that I would do this myself, but I have seen a Top 5 airplane where someone wrapped the shaft with *masking tape* to space out the prop, with no ill effects.

    BTW, assembling things dry with interference fits is *extremely likely* to gall. Steel is probably less prone to it than aluminum, but never do dry assemblies. I have seen *a ton* of Aero Products spinners were the spinner nut was assembled dry and had to be cut off with, you guessed it, a Zona saw. In one case, even after cutting through the body of the spinner behind the nut and having it right there to use pliers, we couldn't get the nut and cut-off portion separated, it cold-welded and it came apart only when it was cut through, and did not split where the two parts were supposed to come apart.

     Brett
« Last Edit: June 08, 2025, 04:41:03 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2025, 04:20:24 PM »
I see mention of ordering new parts-from where?   Don't think any have been made in years......


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Online Brett Buck

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2025, 04:37:22 PM »
I see mention of ordering new parts-from where?   Don't think any have been made in years......


Dave

   Links above.

    Brett

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2025, 04:59:11 PM »
Ah,  interesting.  Had never heard of them.

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Online kevin king

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2025, 10:36:11 PM »
Thanks all for taking the time to help me. Much appreciated. H^^
Kevin.

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2025, 02:50:14 AM »
Too late now, but as it’s a plain bushed shaft, with no tight fits to bearings or drive cone, couldn’t you just remove the piston & liner and the tap lightly to the front of shaft to get the ring out? Propeller drive plate should push the ring forward. L

Online kevin king

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2025, 12:42:00 PM »
Ok LA46 crank is done, for now. I didn't want to wait a month for a new one so I pulled a crank out of a new LA 40. My suspicions were confirmed. Because this is a Randy LA46, the crankshaft is not the same as the Stock one in the LA 40. The one from Randy is balanced, and a slight bit heavier, and not the same shape web(?). The stock 40 crank weighs 247.5 grams, the 46 balanced one is 265.55. Everything went smoothly, except dropping the LA40 and breaking the spring off the needle. One thing i didn't do was to mark the orientation of the piston!


Online kevin king

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2025, 12:43:01 PM »
I wonder if this is an LA 65 crankshaft?

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2025, 01:05:26 PM »
One thing i didn't do was to mark the orientation of the piston!

If you did not yet dismantle the conrod/piston assy, you can usually tell the front side of rod from the bigger chamfer in the big end hole. That is to give a clearance for the crankpin root radius.
L

Offline spare_parts

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2025, 04:25:33 PM »
That is the last version of the OS 40/46LA crank.
Greg

Online kevin king

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2025, 05:37:45 PM »
If you did not yet dismantle the conrod/piston assy, you can usually tell the front side of rod from the bigger chamfer in the big end hole. That is to give a clearance for the crankpin root radius.
L
Thanks L. I will go back and check the chamfer. I'm glad I didn't bench run it yet. Thanks for the tip

Online kevin king

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2025, 05:41:42 PM »
That is the last version of the OS 40/46LA crank.
Thanks for solving that puzzle.

Online kevin king

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2025, 07:13:23 PM »
Lauri, I took the con rod out and the hole in the con rod looked the same front and back.

Kevin

Online kevin king

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2025, 07:16:52 PM »
Simple operation and I probably ruined it.

Online kevin king

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2025, 07:21:44 PM »
Simple operation and I probably ruined the engine.
Be sure to not mark the connecting rod and ensure you put the piston facing the opposite direction. If done correctly your engine should be half the power it used to be.

Online kevin king

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2025, 07:45:12 PM »
Lauri, I think I found what you described: one side of the connecting rod holes has a small radius to fit over the small curve where the pin meets the crank. THANK YOU.

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2025, 11:30:58 PM »
Lauri, I think I found what you described: one side of the connecting rod holes has a small radius to fit over the small curve where the pin meets the crank. THANK YOU.

   Been a while since I built up my ABC LA.46s, so can't remember specifically, but some engines have an offset on the rod end bosses. When looking at them from the side, 90 degrees to the holes, you can easily see it if it does have any offset. I'm pretty sure Fox.35's are.Pay attention to any oiling holes and their locations also.

 Type at you later,
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: How to remove a crankshaft from OS LA 46?
« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2025, 11:50:35 PM »
     On the topic of which way the conrod/piston goes, I note that some engines with flat-top pistons still care which way around they are installed. The 40VF, for example, has a big cutout in the piston skirt to allow flow into the boost port. Put it in backwards and it runs a lot like you had the liner backwards. One of the locals had a perfectly good running 40VF in his Imitation. For reasons unknown, he had taken it apart. Next time out, clouds of smoke, no power, and boiling hot. This went on for months. We had him check a bunch of stuff, next time, same thing.

     Finally, I had him remove the engine, and I started taking it apart to see what the issue might be. Sure enough, first thing off was the backplate, and there was a big fat chamfer on the big end staring at me. Flipped it around, put it back together, instant perfect runs again. One of many examples of people taking engines apart unnecessarily or for dubious purposes, messing something up, and then wasting a bunch of time trying to sort it out.

    Brett


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