How to combat hinging in hard turns?

[Larry Renger]

My Ringmaster tends to hinge a bit on hard turns. 

I only have 1/2 ounce of tipweight, so I doubt that is the problem. The balance is at the prescribed point and the wheels seem to line up in flight, so I think the lead-out position is probably close to correct.

I did do a search, and didn't see any useful advice. Anyone have some ideas on what to do about it? 

[Crist Rigotti]

Too much tip weight.  Go by what the airplane is doing/needs. not by a prescribed amount.  In other words, give the airplane what it needs to fly correctly. 

[Dave_Trible]

I believe Crist is correct but too much engine offset or rudder can lead to hinging as well by yawing the airplane outward and shoving the inboard wing forward.  Before you rip into the airplane to remove weight you can verify the issue by adding some clay to the inboard side to see what happens.  Side mounted engines can agrevate the tip weight issue.

Dave

[MikeyPratt]

My Ringmaster tends to hinge a bit on hard turns. 

I only have 1/2 ounce of tipweight, so I doubt that is the problem. The balance is at the prescribed point and the wheels seem to line up in flight, so I think the lead-out position is probably close to correct.

I did do a search, and didn't see any useful advice. Anyone have some ideas on what to do about it? 

Larry,
Yep, it is always tip weight, lead-out position, or too much rudder offset.  At times, excess engine offset can be part of it as well.  Ad a 1/4 ounce of tip weight (clay) to the inboard wing tip.  Fly it and see if it is better.  If not, move the lead out forward slightly (.125) and fly again.

Note on rudder offset:  My last R/M required 0 rudder off set before it was happy.  I cut the rudder off and replaced it with new rudder that had an airfoil sanded into it. 

Later,
Mikey

[Larry Renger]

Thanks for the input, guys! 

Fortunately, the model has a tipweight box, so adjustment is easy. The vertcal fin is flat and is only offset 1/8", so it should be OK.

[Brett Buck]

My Ringmaster tends to hinge a bit on hard turns. 

I only have 1/2 ounce of tipweight, so I doubt that is the problem. The balance is at the prescribed point and the wheels seem to line up in flight, so I think the lead-out position is probably close to correct.

I did do a search, and didn't see any useful advice. Anyone have some ideas on what to do about it? 

  You couldn't find anything?  Hinging = too much tip weight has been in every trim post forever. But another possibility looms, and the Ringmaster is infamous for it - it may be stalling. This is particularly true since you are running a Fox. Effectively, just a hair too much control, and it wants to snap roll and is only prevented by the restraint of the lines. Check for excess tipewight by watching what happens in the intersection of the round 8s. The roll angle will switch directions at the intersections, if so, too much tipweight for sure. If it only manifests itself in hard corners and seems particularly abrupt, it's probably stalling. The solution is probably to reduce the elevator travel by narrowing the handle spacing or lengthening the control horn.

   But I am a little nervous about what you described as the prescribed balance point. Most of the solid-flying Ringmasters I have see balanced somewhere around the back side of the LE wood, or a little further. If you are further than about 1 1/4" you are likely to have issues.

     BTW, you have tipweight already - all that engine and stuff hanging out on the outboard side of the fuselage. Yes, it's close to the centerline, but it's also 10 or so ounces. The only way you can tell how much you *really* have is to counterweight the airplane and measure how much you have to put in the inboard wingtip to balance it.

    Lastly, with a Fox, you might be expecting too much. Unless you are Bart Klapinski, running a Fox, you need to be *very gentle* on the controls at all times.

      Brett

   

[Tim Wescott]

Just a drop of fuel to the fire: my Ringmaster really punishes me for not flying through the corners.  If I get lazy and just bang on the elevator, then it stalls.  Fortunately it doesn't roll in a stall (I must be lucky), but it'll certainly give a herky-jerky, profoundly ugly performance.

I suspect it's milder mannered than some because I've got a 20FP in the nose and fly it on Really Long Lines (for a Ring -- 60').  So speed lost in a stall is regained pretty quickly.

[Tim Wescott]

From your other thread on, I believe, the same plane:

... The handle is the latest RSM hard-point exponential one, so the plane is dead smooth flying level, but plenty of kick for maneuvers.

I don't think this is what you want on a Ringmaster.

[john e. holliday]

I have tall horns on my Ringmasters to cut control down to a little more than 25 degrees each way.   They are being flown with Fox .35 Stunt,  Brodak .25,  Fox .25 and last is LA .25.  The Super and Imperial have LA .46's in them.  The Ringmaster Canard has a LA .25.  Now Larry I hope you get it figured out.

[Brett Buck]

  The Ringmaster Canard has a LA .25. 

   What What What? Ringmaster Canard?  Does it fly backwards better than it does forwards?

   BTW, even 25 degrees is A LOT of elevator travel. But total travel doesn't really matter, it's how much you actually use, essentially how fast are the controls set up.

    Brett

[Tim Wescott]

   What What What? Ringmaster Canard?  Does it fly backwards better than it does forwards?

The Ringmaster forum had a "design a Ringmaster variant" contest a few years ago.  Various bizarre planforms were proposed.

I don't know what John's Ringmaster Canard is based on, but this is the one that I designed.  Minor things like leadouts and bellcrank mounting are left as an exercise to the reader.

[john e. holliday]

My Ringmaster Canard is based on Richard Sarpolas design that I built also just to prove to people a canard will fly and when conditions are right will do the whole pattern.  Still need trimming to do on mine.  This is only photo I have after putting the booms back together.   It will do most of the pattern.   But, like your plan there is no movable surfaces on the trailing edge of the wing.  Have even put a taller horn in the elevator/canard.

It is in front of most of my Ringmasters.  The smaller ones were in the shop.  Sorry Larry for cutting in on your thread.