stunthanger.com
General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Mike Griffin on January 18, 2015, 09:21:49 AM
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I sometimes cannot help but think that a newcomer to this forum must be overwhelmed with the abundance of information that has been put into this forum. If one goes to the building techniques or painting and finishing forums for information, the opinions of how to construct or finish a model borders on information overload to the point of driving one to insanity. To confuse matters even more, when engineering formulas and physics enter the conversation, the head starts spinning just trying to wrap your mind around what these brainiacs are talking about. To some, including me, is becomes as confusing as trying to read mandarin. I mean after all, we are mostly a fraternity of grown men in the autumn of our lives playing with toy airplanes. I am by no means saying this is a bad thing but then I think about the many kits I constructed on a folding card table in my younger years and wonder how they managed to get off the ground at all....but they did.....and they flew pretty darn good.
Mike
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There is no better teacher than making and learning from your mistakes. I like to give some guidance, then let the student experience the situation and see for themselves. I was sort of self taught as a kid, picking up a lot of information from the model magazines when I could afford them. Probably one of the reasons I like them so much today. We would buy kits on a Saturday morning, thrash them together all day and well into the night, then attempt flight on Sunday! Eventually we learned patience and some craftsmanship and the models got better as we went along. This internet thing can present information overload, though. It's up to the individual to sort things out. Getting out to the flying field and seeing things live and in person is the best way to see results, though, no matter what discipline of the hobby you are taking part in. I think people are still basically the same, and seeing things in person and getting to put your hands on something real is what helps get the interest started. It lets you use all of your senses.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Sometimes it's better to rely on 2 or 3 trusted experienced builders to help with building and engine questions. When a question is posted on a forum, any forum, you will get a multitude of answer's, some great, some good, and some totally from left field. It is up to the poster to sort through the answers, try not to get too confused and build away. Experience is a great teacher..When you have mentors to help you through a problem you can bet they have been there, done that. Trying to eliminate mistakes before we make them can be a challenge. "Directions, I don't need no stinkin directions."
Rich
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Rich
When all else fails Follow the Instructions!
During my 26 years in Manufacturing Engineering I have seen many Dollars wasted because someone thought they knew a better way.
My recommendation is: Follow the Instructions and then if you have a problem ask for help.
Clancy
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Find a persons planes you like the look of, their style of building and copy them. Pretty simple.
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Mike. These forums tend to provide a wealth of good information. Even though I have been active in model planes for over 60 years, I still learn much by reading these forums, and I try to add to the library of useful information whenever I feel I have something to contribute.
Here's a suggestion. If you need more information, try sending an e-mail to a member who offers a post if you don't completely understand what he is offering. You might find most are helpful and will respond on a personal basis. This would be more useful than simply replying with another post that you don't understand what is being said..
I always reply 100% to anyone sending me a personal e-mail. Most members include their e-mail address in their personal page on this forum.
Floyd
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I always reply 100% to anyone sending me a personal e-mail. Most members include their e-mail address in their personal page on this forum.
Floyd
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That's a interesting claim. I have asked 3 times if you got the $ for the plans you sent me. Still waiting to hear..........
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I sometimes cannot help but think that a newcomer to this forum must be overwhelmed with the abundance of information that has been put into this forum. If one goes to the building techniques or painting and finishing forums for information, the opinions of how to construct or finish a model borders on information overload to the point of driving one to insanity. To confuse matters even more, when engineering formulas and physics enter the conversation, the head starts spinning just trying to wrap your mind around what these brainiacs are talking about. To some, including me, is becomes as confusing as trying to read mandarin. I mean after all, we are mostly a fraternity of grown men in the autumn of our lives playing with toy airplanes. I am by no means saying this is a bad thing but then I think about the many kits I constructed on a folding card table in my younger years and wonder how they managed to get off the ground at all....but they did.....and they flew pretty darn good.
For the most part I agree. The problem used to be that no one could find *any* information on what to do or what was going on. Now, there is arguably too much.
It's inevitable when you have this range of skills. The kind of information that might be interesting or useful to David, Ted, Paul Walker, Derek, Howard, myself, etc. is completely different from what a beginner or retread might need. The difference between the level of skill and knowledge between even one of the Usual Suspects and even other experienced modelers/Expert level competitors is remarkable, far more than most people think, and then you project to a beginner or sport flier, and it is absolutely astronomical.
One thing I don't agree with is the sort of implicit notion that it was somehow easier in the good old days, or that only "simple" information is useful. Beginners and retreads are no more or less intelligent than the rest of us. Partial, wrong or "fencepost wisdom" BS (just another way of saying "wrong") information, which constitutes the vast majority of the supposed assistance that people get here and everywhere else, doesn't help anyone. It just perpetuates the same old crap, which is restated over and over. Beginners and retreads deserve *correct* information and advice. What they frequently get is utter nonsense from decades past, and a bunch of people arguing over their favorite brand of nonsense. That's just another reason why today is so much better than the "Good Old Days".
If someone doesn't understand or grasp it, it is safe to assume that the problem is in the explanation, not the person trying to read it.
I stopped writing for the "Design" column because I could not do it without using math, and I cannot explain the concepts (and it, for the most part, cannot be explained) without it. It is frustrating that people reject it categorically, because I have seen almost nothing written in terms of stunt that required any sort of advanced mathematics and the concepts are pretty simple. But it is a "block" that people cannot deal with. And as I have noted previously, since you do have such a wide range of experience, you have to start from the most basic precepts every single time, which it extremely tedious for the more experienced.
Even worse it the tendency for some to mock it (like our host does incessantly), despite the fact that making even an attempt to understand it might reduce some of the random experimentation and extreme frustration that they experience. Cut-and-try can be a useful way to go but you have to have some notion of what you are trying to do or how to evaluate the experiments. Scientists don't go out in the lab and mix chemicals at random, with no underlying theory, and see what happens. Why should we?
The other thing is that beginners have to deal with is that there are so few of them that people descend on them trying to "recruit" them, and it can become oppressive. Particularly when a few people try to exploit the sort of thing you mention to recruit them into the their crazy political jihad (liked Dennis did the other day, still fighting a war they lost almost 10 years ago). Fortunately those people are rare but that's a significant problem, too.
For my own part, I can only explain it the way I think about it, and I try to provide complete and correct information that I know works. And why I think it works. There's nothing worse than "do it because I say so" because that is the height of arrogance. I can't do anything else, and neither can anyone else. People are just going to be different and they are going to have varying approaches to trying to provide help.
I would note that this is almost entirely an internet phenomenon. In Real Life(tm), you go out and fly with your buddies and depending on their level of experience they can boil whatever they know down to fixing whatever problems you have. Or, you can just go buy a kit, build an airplane, and go fly it without referring to or knowing anything more than you did back when you were a kid. The information is available, but you don't have to use it.
Brett
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There are some really great points you guys made in response to my post. I was posing this as a 3rd person and putting myself in the position of a a newcomer to the forum who might have a really good and legitimate question and yet may be overwhelmed by the varied amount of information that we may posess or has been archived here in this forum. Brett especially makes some excellent points in his response. Maybe this is a Catch 22 type situation due to the availability of the information. I certainly dont want this to be a "bad" thing for someone who is trying to learn but how do we put it out there without confusing the person to the point of frustration? Over the years we all have settled in to a way we like to do things and that is what we do but how does the beginner for example look at 20 different ways to do the same thing and sort it all out and pick one to make it his? I do not have the answer. Maybe that is why there is a place for ARFs.....just buy it already built and glue it together and go fly it. Anyway, I love analyzing scenarios like this and for gosh sakes the last thing we want to do is run anyone off because of appearing to be snobs or confusing the Heck out of them by arguing among ourselves when we are asked a legitimate question by someone who is truly trying to get a clear answer. Personally, I have built wings many different ways but is still get a thrill when I sight down it and it is straight with no bows or warps....
Mike
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Well after reading Brett's responce I have to wonder how much math went into Billy's airplanes? Or was it maybe just experience? Aside from some type of measuring device. At least Howard did tell me at one time there is a large pile of scrap metal a the end of the runway before the math starts.
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Well after reading Brett's responce I have to wonder how much math went into Billy's airplanes?
You understand Billy and what he is doing even less than you understand what I am doing.
Brett
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Excellent!
You understand Billy and what he is doing even less than you understand what I am doing. What he does works.
Brett
You need a bigger hat for that head.
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You need a bigger hat for that head.
I am not the one dropping the name of a 3-time World and National Champ and implying I am equivalent.
Brett
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I am not the one dropping the name of a 3-time World and National Champ and implying I am equivalent.
Brett
Where does it say that? Here is what it says.
Find a persons planes you like the look of, their style of building and copy them. Pretty simple.
I would take his advice first
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When I started flying, I was fortunate to have some of the best flyers in the country take me under their wings. Yes I'll drop names. Brett, Ted, Dave, Uncle Jimby and Jim Tichy were always just a phone call away. I always got the best advice from the best of the best. Not many can trim an airplane to get the optimal performance like Brett and Dave. (Paul and Howard would fit in that group but since I fly with those I named above, they are the ones I feel most comfortable calling and taking up their time. When it came to finishing, The late great Jim Tichy and Uncle Jimby were my heros and after hundreds of hours of their mentoring I can now put my finishing skills among the best. And Ted, he's just...... The Best.
There is a lot of advice out there, some good, some not so good. When a Concoures award winning flyer and some retread flying a warped oil soaked
Ringmaster with a clapped out McCoy .35 on it, gives you advice on paint and finish, listen to the guy with all the Councoures de Elegance awards in his wall unit.
To all of those I mentioned above, thank you all very much for the time you spent making this hobby more enjoyable for me.
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
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I think it is time for me to bow out.
Mike
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Yes the inter net and the forums can over load a beginner. I remember vaguely back in the day when I discovered other control line flyers and a club. The Flying Eagles of Kansas City Kansas. Mr. Brooks flew my big plane for me at the time for its first flight. Needless to say the old McCoy needed more break in and the Guillows Rat Racer made a great trainer in that it was rugged. Mr. Meriwether was the one that taught or told me to learn to build light and straight. He stated finishing will come in time. At that time it was enough dope to fuel proof the plane and fly. When I encounter a new person interested in control line I point them in the direction of some kits that have good building/construction manuals in the kits. Engine choices is down to just a couple depending on how big a plane they want. But I too sometimes forget where I started. But as an individual told me one time if you don't listen to his advice don't ask any more.
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Not many can trim an airplane to get the optimal performance like Brett and Dave. (Paul and Howard would fit in that group...
Howard would like to fit in that group, but he's a long ways from it.
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Oh Pshaw, Howard. You're being too modest.
I recall being wowed by your table full of silk and dope covered Nemesis II combat planes shortly after your arrival at the Glenview Nats in '72. The finish on each and every one was excellent. Was equally wowed when you flew them. They were tight on the lines and straight as an arrow with zero wobbles/yaws.
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Where does it say that? Here is what it says.
You misread my comment. You have no idea what Billy is doing, or why. You know *one* thing about it, and don't even see the other 1000.
For example, a big part of Billy's approach is (or at least used to be) massive numbers of practice flights. Thousands a year. If you copied that, you would likely be a lot better off. I think Derek told you that several times. But then you would have to listen to people who can tell you what your mistakes are, or you would burn your mistakes into muscle memory, and I have seen no indication that you can listen to any constructive criticism. Billy might well be able to see most of it himself, but you sure can't.
I would take his advice first
Who said otherwise? Of course, you aren't actually getting any advice from Billy, but sure, if you got some, you should probably try it.
Good Lord, what a silly diversion...
Brett
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You misread my comment. You have no idea what Billy is doing, or why. You know *one* thing about it, and don't even see the other 1000.
For example, a big part of Billy's approach is (or at least used to be) massive numbers of practice flights. Thousands a year. If you copied that, you would likely be a lot better off. I think Derek told you that several times. But then you would have to listen to people who can tell you what your mistakes are, or you would burn your mistakes into muscle memory, and I have seen no indication that you can listen to any constructive criticism. Billy might well be able to see most of it himself, but you sure can't.
Who said otherwise? Of course, you aren't actually getting any advice from Billy, but sure, if you got some, you should probably try it.
Once again Brett knows all. HB~>
Good Lord, what a silly diversion...
Brett
You wont let it go you don't know me. I started this site because of you and this type of Attitude. Most are tired of it. You don't know everything so stop emulating that you do. News Flash. You are not God. I see a whole lot more than you think!
You understand Billy and what he is doing even less than you understand what I am doing.
Another news flash I don't care about what your doing.
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You wont let it go you don't know me. I started this site because of you and this type of Attitude. Most are tired of it. You don't know everything so stop emulating that you do. News Flash. You are not God. I see a whole lot more than you think!
Another news flash I don't care about what your doing.
I for one am not tired of it.
Brett might know everything, but he knows a hell of a lot more than you and me. He does not need to emulate that fact.
Brett is not god, but I am an atheist so I don't see anyone as god.
You may not care what he is doing, but he has had more success in this hobby than you and I.
Put your ego aside and accept the fact that he takes this hobby seriously and has been pretty successfull in competition. He will always be there to share his knowledge and experience with us all just as he has shared with me.
Brett is one of my stunt hero's and I take exception to those who take cheap shots at him.
Boot me off your site again if you will, but don't belittle my friend.
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
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Howard would like to fit in that group, but he's a long ways from it.
Maybe so, but when you represent our country at the World Championships, you must be doing something right.
You are also one of my "Stunt Hero's" (even if you are a smart-ass).
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
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"Well after reading Brett's response I have to wonder how much math went into Billy's airplanes? Or was it maybe just experience? Aside from some type of measuring device."
Robert was speculating. Not making an assertion. Actually agreeing in essence with Brett's point about Werwage's practice time. Nothing offensive in the above. A diplomatic statement. Certainly not a personal attack.
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I remember reading a few articles by Bill Werwage. No mention of aerodynamic formulas. His methodology appeared to be a practical one. Make intuitive changes. See how they work in practice. Perhaps Bob Hunt designs models theoretically first. Doing black board math. But he has never mentioned this in any article I read. His designs, as almost all the control line stunt designs I've read about, appear to be practical evolutions. Designs that have been tuned and tweaked pragmatically. Usually inductive instead of deductive. Paul Walker's descriptions of the Impact Evolution, similar, at least from what I remember reading. Not much math in the articles. I don't remember any reference to aerodynamic formulations.
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Robert was speculating. Not making an assertion. Actually agreeing in essence with Brett's point about Werwage's practice time. Nothing offensive in the above. A diplomatic statement. Certainly not a personal attack.
There are a few who think its ok to badger me and that is why this site was started. If you read the post that got this started he mentioned the forum host. Meaning me as opposed to math. I am not opposed to anything that works. I am opposed to someone thinking they know evrerything and throwing it it my face. It stops here. The answer to this question of how much is too much is This thread. It serves no purpose so its locked.