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[Motorman]

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[Claudio Chacon]

You must do a minimum of five laps before the WO. (that's 3 laps for the take off maneuver plus two not scored laps before entering the WO). Total five minimum laps.

You must do a minimum of 6 inverted laps before outside loops. (that's 2 inverted not scored laps before entering the inverted flight maneuver, plus 2 SCORED inverted laps to perform the Inverted Flight maneuver, plus 2 not scored inverted laps before entering the outside loops). Total 6 minimum laps.

All this applies to FAI rules, but I think that it's the same for AMA rules.

[Derek Barry]

Takeoff and level flight are considered to be one maneuver, so that makes for 3 laps starting with the release of the model. Two laps after that for a total of 5, then the wingover.

Derek

[Derek Barry]

And depending on where you take off you may have to do more than 5. I take off down wind so I have to do 5.5 to get back to the judges.

Derek

[john e. holliday]

As has been pointed out to us in stunt clinics and in actual practice,  place your take off just before the judges.   I still do six laps anyway or the six lap is start of RW.  Also remember that it is 2 1/2 laps before the overhead 8.

[Trostle]

And depending on where you take off you may have to do more than 5. I take off down wind so I have to do 5.5 to get back to the judges.

Derek

Good comment.  A good way to comply with the number of laps required before the wingover is to remember the model needs to pass over its takeoff release point at least 5 times before the start of the wingover.  This avoids any question on the part of the judges regarding the minimum number of laps required before the wingover.

The wording in the rulebook regarding "A nominal interpretation of the 'two (2) lap' level flight requirement" which allows the starting point of one maneuver to be slightly less than two full laps really does not apply here because that wording allows for the difference in the width between consecutive maneuvers (where those consecutive maneuers have "width").  In the context here, the "width of maneuvers" does not apply since the takeoff and the wingover essentially have no width.   Besides, with our 8 minute flight time limit, the time is not a serious constraint so completing a pattern in the time limit is not an issue.  Furthermore, the pilot should not be looking for ways to stretch the interpretation of the two lap requirement after the takeoff/level flight prior to the wingover.  The judges are looking for and are used to seeing at least those 5 complete laps required prior to the wingover.  It is not good practice for a pilot to make the judges blink and wonder if they saw something less than those 5 complete laps.

However, if a pilot has a problem with having fuel enough for a complete pattern and cannot afford to have any extra laps in his pattern, the pilot has the option to takeoff just prior to where the wingover will commence in front of the judges.  It would be a good practice to alert the judges that just as soon as that 5th lap is completed, he will initiate the wingover.  Again, there is no need to surprise the judges and make them blink to wonder what they just witnessed.


Keith

[Trostle]

As has been pointed out to us in stunt clinics and in actual practice,  place your take off just before the judges.   I still do six laps anyway or the six lap is start of RW.  Also remember that it is 2 1/2 laps before the overhead 8.

Hi Doc,

Under ideal wind conditions, starting the takeoff just before the judges can be a good option for the pilot.  However, when there is a lot of wind and/or field conditions might dictate otherwise, starting the takoff at or near the upwind portion of the circle is not a desirable practice.  All the pilot needs to do is to remember that the model must pass over its takeoff position at least 5 times prior to the wingover.  Neither the judges nor the pilot should feel that it is a requirement to start the takeoff near the upwind position.

Keith

[Tim Wescott]

Good comment.  A good way to comply with the number of laps required before the wingover is to remember the model needs to pass over its takeoff release point at least 5 times before the start of the wingover.

I can't count past 2, so I count off "takeoff done", "one level lap, two lever lap", "one, two -- wingover".

And yes, the wingover happens strictly after the last time I pass over the launch point but exactly at the right point in the prevailing wind, even if I have to wait most of a lap to get there.

(I count off inverted laps the same way: "one", "two", "one", "two", "one", "crap, where was I?").

[Allan Perret]

Under ideal wind conditions, starting the takeoff just before the judges can be a good option for the pilot.

Up to what wind speed (your ideal conditions) do you think it is OK to launch on the upwind side (near the judges)?
Also, when the wind is blowing harder than that, what is your preferred launch point relative to the wind.   

[Allen Brickhaus]

Good answers guys.

Allen

[FLOYD CARTER]

I try to do everything that will please the judges.  It seems to be common to fly 6 1/2 laps, from downwind TO to start of reverse WO in front of the judges.  If you do only 5 or 5 1/2, you might catch the judges when they don't expect it.   You can usually tell when a pilot is starting a maneuver:  he plants feet and stops turning.  Some even get into a crouch!  Something will happen when you see this.

Floyd

[Doug Moon]

I amke sure I pass the judges 6 times then I go over the top.  I have done it that way for years.  I wont deviate from it so there is no question ever in my mind or the judges. 

[Trostle]

Up to what wind speed (your ideal conditions) do you think it is OK to launch on the upwind side (near the judges)?
Also, when the wind is blowing harder than that, what is your preferred launch point relative to the wind.   

You have two questions.

1.  There is no specific wind speed limit to still be comfortable with launching on the upwind side of the circle.  You sort of have to know what the limits are for you and your particular airplane.  Launching on the upwind side of the circle with windy conditions can cause problems that could otherwise be avoided.  The only reason I can imagine for launching on the upwind side of the circle is if you are limited by your fuel tank capacity to complete the pattern without killing the motor, like on the first inside loop of the four leaf, so you might want to save that several seconds of fuel for the end of the pattern.  

2.  The windier the conditions, the more limitations you have on where to launch your model.  Again, you will need to know what limitations you and your model have for the given wind condition.  

In the following scenarios, assume the wind is blowing toward the 12:00 position when you are standing in the center of the circle (CCW flight rotation):

a.  Under most conditions if the wind is reasonable (i.e. 5 or 6 MPH or less), I would recommend starting the takeoff run near the 1:00 or 2:00 position of the circle.

b.  When the wind is more severe, I would recommend moving forward with the start takeoff position to between the 11:00 to 10:00 position.  The problem with launching near down wind when it is windy is that the wind can lift the tail off of the ground and sort of grind down your propeller which is to be avoided.  The other problem with launching dead down wind or close to it under windy conditions is that the wind will push the rear of the fuselage out, pointing the nose in and maybe end up with slack lines and no control which is not a desirable thing.

(With experience, these positions may vary)

At a contest, watch where other pilots are launching from.  This will show the more desirable locations to launch with respect to the wind as well as surface conditions.

Keith

[john e. holliday]

That is one of the reasons for taking off up wind before the judges.  The wind pushes the tail into the circle, unless you have a design that has no side area back of the trailing edge of the wind.   

Also like when I only did mess up the count of inverted laps at VSC one year,  good ole Rusty Brown told me to remember my music lessons about counting.   You go as follows: a one an a two an a three an a four an a five an a out side loops.  Still miss the gentleman even tho its been several years. 

[Bill Little]

I'm like Doug and I guess a few more here.  I count the times I pass the judges and pull up on the 6th time I pass.  That pretty much means I have flown at least 5 laps, I guess.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Steve Helmick]

It's all pretty well explained in the rulebook, but most people do 6 before the RWO and 6 inverted. 

Remember that you can always throw in a few extra level laps without penalty, but shortchanging the judges should (will probably) cost you 25 points. At our last contest, first round, I had a coughing spell (no, I don't smoke) while flying the inverted laps, and lost count. Swallered a bug, I guess. I threw in a few extra laps and continued. Oh, well! Some would probably have demanded a refly.  Steve

[john e. holliday]

Hopefully they watched laps 3 & 4.   Ignore the other laps after them. 

[FLOYD CARTER]

There should  be no problem counting two level laps between maneuvers.  It gets confusing if you fly both OT pattern and the modern pattern.  Inverted flight is in the "wrong" place.  It's easy to lose count of loops and other maneuvers.  If you short them, you get dinged by the judges.  Also, if you do too many, you also get a penalty.

My reference point is the downwind, where I take off.  The count updates each time I pass the takeoff point.

When doing maneuvers, I talk to myself!  Like, "Onnnnnneeeee,  twwwwwwwoooooeeee", etc.  I stretch it out so I can't forget.  Floyd

[Tim Wescott]

Swallered a bug, I guess. I threw in a few extra laps and continued. Oh, well! Some would probably have demanded a refly.

I would think that swallowing one fly was enough.