How many laps after take off?

[Paul Taylor]

I have only been doing three laps after take off before starting the reverse wing over.
After watching Mike S. on the youtube post makes me think I should do a few more???

[john e. holliday]

And you have been scored.  According to the book you should get a zero for the reverse wing over.  There is one lap for takeoff to level flight.  Then two level laps for judging and another two laps before the start of the reverse wingover.  If you have the judges on the upwind sde of the circle place your plane about 15  feet before you get to the judges.  Especially if it is windy.  Then as you complete the fifth lap over the starting point you start the reverse wingover.  Then is is two nominal laps between maneuvers until you complete the hour glass, then 2 1/2 laps.  Remember after the four leaf clover do at least two laps before doing anything else like outside loops to unwind lines.  If you have a flame out during the clover remember also to pull the plane for two laps before landing.  Now do I have you confused?  By the way most of the time I do six laps before the reverse wingover.

[Brett Buck]

I have only been doing three laps after take off before starting the reverse wing over.
After watching Mike S. on the youtube post makes me think I should do a few more???

   The complete "take-off and level flight" maneuver is 3 laps - a one-lap climb to 5 feet, then two more laps at 5 feet.

   After that, you have to put two laps between maneuvers. So, from launch to entering the reverse wingover you need 5 laps.

      Brett

[Paul Taylor]

Doc,
No I have not been scored yet this year. My first score this year will be June 18th at Brodaks.

I thought I was missing something.

Thanks guys!

[john e. holliday]

Well have fun at Brodaks and do us proud.

[Larry Fulwider]

. . .
 . . .  Remember after the four leaf clover do at least two laps before doing anything else like outside loops to unwind lines.  . . .

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=17018.0

By the way, OTS is the same number of laps after take-off as other PA scoring. I used to think it was one lap less. The wording is slightly different, but the net result is the same.

Well, I think that is right. If not, someone will correct me.

       Larry Fulwider

[Don Hutchinson AMA5402]

Actually, if an OTS event is run to the 1951 rulebook, the book states "each maneuver should be preceded by at least one full lap of normal level flight." Most do two as they are used to doing it this way. Another enigma in these goofy rules is which laps are to be judged for level flight?? The take off and level flight are described as two separate maneuvers so one would think there should be at least one level lap between the take off and the two judged laps, however, again most like to do two so does one run six level laps between takeoff and the climb??. Many contests judge the two maneuvers like the PA rules, take off and the next two laps! By the book that is not the correct procedure! Now we have made that perfect climb and fly two laps up there before we dive. Does that disagree with the rulebook statement of "one full lap of normal normal level flight before the dive??? Also please note that there is no bottom specified in the rulebook for the dive, so it could end anywhere. Also no bottoms specified for the loops or the eights, only the inference of the lap of normal level flight at the start. Thus indirectly implying that six to ten feet should get the better score. If you plan to judge OTS, best you make the flyers aware of how you are going to judge them!

[Trostle]

What Brett said about the AMA CLPA pattern is correct.

What Don said about the OTS pattern is correct.

Now, back to the AMA pattern.  As Brett explained there are a minimum of 5 laps prior to the start of the reverse wingover.

A simple way to think about this process, regardless of where the takeoff is started relative to the judges is that the model should pass by the judges at least 5 times before the reverse wingover is started.  The way the rules are right now with no pattern points, if the minimum two laps are not cmpleteed after the 3 laps for the takeoff and judged level flight and before the reverse wingover is started, the reverse wingover should be scored zero (0).

Keith

[Dick Byron]

Don,
    Would it not be correct to let every contestant know HOW they would be judged in every event? Due to the fact OTS is a non rule book event it falls under the class "C" sanction where there are no rules requirements. See the December 2009 Model Aviation page 160. The description of a class "C" sanction is made clear by Greg Hahn.

[Paul Taylor]

Thanks guys, I am going to count to 6 before doing the RW.

[Brian Massey]

I've trained myself to do 6 laps before the wingover. That way if you screw up and miss one you still get your points for the manuver.

Brian

[Brett Buck]

Don,
    Would it not be correct to let every contestant know HOW they would be judged in every event? Due to the fact OTS is a non rule book event it falls under the class "C" sanction where there are no rules requirements. See the December 2009 Model Aviation page 160. The description of a class "C" sanction is made clear by Greg Hahn.

       Here we go again...

     Brett

[john e. holliday]

Yes that sounds right.  Everyone should read the rule book at least 12 times.  Then everyone would still have differing opinions on how the patterns(Old Time, Classic and AMA) are done.  That is why there is a pilots meeting to rehash what has been rehashed a dozen times already.  Everyone I have seen posting on this thread knows the status quo.  If this is his first contest, don't bring in Old Time.  Just tell him to have fun as his learning curve is going be soemthing at Brodaks.  So have fun and you will meet so many people.

[Brett Buck]

Yes that sounds right.  Everyone should read the rule book at least 12 times.  Then everyone would still have differing opinions on how the patterns(Old Time, Classic and AMA) are done.  That is why there is a pilots meeting to rehash what has been rehashed a dozen times already.  Everyone I have seen posting on this thread knows the status quo.  If this is his first contest, don't bring in Old Time.  Just tell him to have fun as his learning curve is going be soemthing at Brodaks.  So have fun and you will meet so many people.

   Yeah, one of the charms of OTS is that the 51 rule book is so absurdly ambiguous that it's literally impossible to determine what the heck you are required to do. Many things *are not defined* at all, and depend on interpretation of the individuals involved. And there is not a lot to be done about it - it's not like we are going to rewrite rules from 60 years ago.

     I would disagree that the current (09/10) have significant areas of ambiguity. The tendency of some people to intentionally misinterpret parts of it to try to make a point doesn't mean there are a lot of problems. The few we have are being worked. But it can be pretty difficult to wade through it all for a beginner.

    I am thinking of writing a "beginners guide to stunt contests" that would include a condensed description of how to do the pattern correctly (#of laps, where to enter and exit, etc) that would summarize the necessary pattern elements. It's all in the rule book correctly but there's a lot of information to wade through.

     Brett

[Paul Taylor]

   Yeah, one of the charms of OTS is that the 51 rule book is so absurdly ambiguous that it's literally impossible to determine what the heck you are required to do. Many things *are not defined* at all, and depend on interpretation of the individuals involved. And there is not a lot to be done about it - it's not like we are going to rewrite rules from 60 years ago.

     I would disagree that the current (09/10) have significant areas of ambiguity. The tendency of some people to intentionally misinterpret parts of it to try to make a point doesn't mean there are a lot of problems. The few we have are being worked. But it can be pretty difficult to wade through it all for a beginner.

    I am thinking of writing a "beginners guide to stunt contests" that would include a condensed description of how to do the pattern correctly (#of laps, where to enter and exit, etc) that would summarize the necessary pattern elements. It's all in the rule book correctly but there's a lot of information to wade through.

     Brett

That would be great Brett! I will take the first copy.

[W.D. Roland]

   
    I am thinking of writing a "beginners guide to stunt contests" that would include a condensed description of how to do the pattern correctly (#of laps, where to enter and exit, etc) that would summarize the necessary pattern elements. It's all in the rule book correctly but there's a lot of information to wade through.

     Brett

Yes Please!
Ill second that emotion!

Reteaching engines to run while training airplanes and pilot to defy gravity with out a wobble or slip or trip while deciphering the rule book is using up 150% my brain!

Also need to teach my German Shepard to do judging for me. Asking the stooge for comments leaves me with a blank stare. The trees don't care. The craw fish have learned to duck.

David
In the middle of nowhere.

[Bill Little]

Hi Paul,

A long time ago I got into the habit of counting the number of times I pass the judges.  For whatever reason, I pull up on *6*.

One point I found helpful back in the beginning of my contest flying is that the *minimum* number of "judging" laps between maneuvers is (now) *2*.  I used more if I felt the sudden anxiety of like forgetting if I had done a maneuver or forgot where I was in the sequence.  It CAN happen,especially at the first contest of the year and you haven't been doing it for years.

It is perfectly legal to fly three, or more, laps between maneuvers, but it can catch you at the end if you do too many!

Big Bear

[John Castle]

   I am thinking of writing a "beginners guide to stunt contests" that would include a condensed description of how to do the pattern correctly (#of laps, where to enter and exit, etc) that would summarize the necessary pattern elements. It's all in the rule book correctly but there's a lot of information to wade through.

     Brett

Yes please.... A lot of time is spent talking about how to attract new people to this hobby but a simple question soon turns into three pages of trivial minutia... makes my brain hurt

[john e. holliday]

Brett, I look forward to that book.

David, don't count too much on your German Shepard for help.  All I get out of Sandy is she will have her back to me I land after a bad pattern.