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Author Topic: How Hard Is It to Fly in Windy Days at Approx 17-20 Knots?  (Read 977 times)

Offline Kafin Noe知an

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How Hard Is It to Fly in Windy Days at Approx 17-20 Knots?
« on: January 21, 2024, 08:58:50 PM »
So, I went flying last Saturday and it was very windy day.
If the windsock was right, the windspeed on that day was at approx 17-20knots.

I started my OS LA-25 with APC Prop 9x4 on my XEBEC at 12,500ish RPM (this setup has been my favorite combo to fly this plane for the past few months), but on that day I suddenly felt having more tension on the handle. It was pulling me really hard. I was also having a hard time to do the maneuvers as I felt the plane flying at a faster rate than usual.

I also tried to take off on several different RPM:
[ ] 12,100ish -- still very strong line tension, fast plane, and hard to do the maneuvers.
[ ] 11,250ish -- still very strong line tension, fast plane, and hard to do the maneuvers. I felt weird because it was 1000ish RPM lower but I could felt the strong tension and faster.
[ ] 10,200ish -- not enough speed and no line tension, only some good line tension at the downwind but I didn't dare to try any maneuvers here.

So the question is, how hard is it to fly in windy days at approx 17-20 Knots?
Is it normal to feel what I mentioned above when you're flying at similar condition?

Looking forward to hearing and learning more from you.


Best,
Kafin
INA 1630
I fly: P40, XEBEC, and Cardinal

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: How Hard Is It to Fly in Windy Days at Approx 17-20 Knots?
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2024, 09:32:15 PM »
So, I went flying last Saturday and it was very windy day.
If the windsock was right, the windspeed on that day was at approx 17-20knots.

I started my OS LA-25 with APC Prop 9x4 on my XEBEC at 12,500ish RPM (this setup has been my favorite combo to fly this plane for the past few months), but on that day I suddenly felt having more tension on the handle. It was pulling me really hard. I was also having a hard time to do the maneuvers as I felt the plane flying at a faster rate than usual.

I also tried to take off on several different RPM:
[ ] 12,100ish -- still very strong line tension, fast plane, and hard to do the maneuvers.
[ ] 11,250ish -- still very strong line tension, fast plane, and hard to do the maneuvers. I felt weird because it was 1000ish RPM lower but I could felt the strong tension and faster.
[ ] 10,200ish -- not enough speed and no line tension, only some good line tension at the downwind but I didn't dare to try any maneuvers here.

So the question is, how hard is it to fly in windy days at approx 17-20 Knots?
Is it normal to feel what I mentioned above when you're flying at similar condition?

   It's very difficult for all the reasons you mention, extreme line tension and greatly accelerated speeds. I note that it is entirely possible to do a lot of maneuvers in the wind without the engine running at all, using the power of the wind to provide the necessary energy.

     In this case, slowing the engine down slightly also cause the speed to vary more, because the engine was loading and unloading more than when it was set correctly. This illustrates the lack of control from even a pretty good muffler setup. A piped engine can be adjusted slightly slower to reduce the line tension and still have decent speed control characteristics. With just a muffler and the engine load response it is a lot more prone the speed and acceleration issues you found. Slowing it down further, you start having issues coming around to the upwind side of the circle.

    I will note, however, that a 25LA/9-4 is still far better at controlling the speed than almost anything we had before about 1986, and a low-time pilot would usually be in big trouble at 20 mph back in the "good old days" of Fox 35s.

     Flying in the wind is largely a matter of technique. For instance, if you do the round loops dead downwind, they will (for very good "dynamic soaring" and geometric reasons) tend to speed up as you found - faster and faster as you to multiple loops.  If you bias the loops a little past downwind - that is, maybe 30 degrees to the left on inside loops, and 30 degrees to the right on outside loops - you can use the slight headwind you get at the bottoms to keep the speed from getting out of control.

       Brett

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: How Hard Is It to Fly in Windy Days at Approx 17-20 Knots?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2024, 09:38:54 PM »
  In addition to what brett said, it's difficult for very experienced pilots to fly in wind like you mention. If it's the NATS or some other big contest, that's one thing, but for a guy that is still learning the pattern and has the logistical problems that you do getting kits and supplies, I just would not fly in those conditions. It's no fun, hard on airplanes and hard on your brain. From your videos, it looks like there are lots of trees around your circle, and that makes things worse. It turns the wind into turbulence that is completely unpredictable. I suggest just sitting out on those flying sessions, spend the time building or repairing or testing engines. For someone at your level and situation, there really isn't much to gain from flying in those conditions.
   Type at you later,
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: How Hard Is It to Fly in Windy Days at Approx 17-20 Knots?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2024, 10:15:00 PM »
I am not going to take issue with Dan.  Most experienced pilots would balk at going up in winds far less than those you described.  However, let me build on something Brett said - dead stick wind flying.  It can be really fun.  You need a plane that has enough wing area to be pushed around and a bit nose heavy.  Start out doing large lazy eights, nearly half a circle wide.  Not the F2B vertical centers but flat dives from one side to the other.  Learn to turn up when the wind will hit the flat of the wing and push it over into a dive in the opposite direction.  It won't be long till you have built up enough energy to do other maneuvers.  We even built planes just for this with no motors at all that we whipped from a hand launch.  It was quite popular in the 50's and early 60's.  Last I did it on purpose was in the late 70's.  It has a real positive side effect, you learn energy conservation, how to keep from stalling, and best of all how to get out of sticky situations when your motor quits.  And lastly, you won't be scared of steady wind any more.  Steady Straight winds, no one should be crazy enough to try this in turbulant air.

Sorry to ramble on but this was such fun - Ken
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Offline Dick Pacini

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Re: How Hard Is It to Fly in Windy Days at Approx 17-20 Knots?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2024, 10:31:15 PM »
I had heard that Gene Shafer was a master at wind flying.  Perhaps Bob Hunt could chime in here because Bob and Gene were flying buddies.
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: How Hard Is It to Fly in Windy Days at Approx 17-20 Knots?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2024, 07:23:54 AM »
Some old tips for flying in the higher wind is to slow the engine a bit (as you did) add just a tad of tail weight to help the ship turn and adjust the leadout position a small amount rearward (like ~1/8").

That being said, I agree with Dan and Ken that it's really not fun to have to fight the ship in high winds and need to take time for repairs for one day's flying.

Best,   DennisT

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: How Hard Is It to Fly in Windy Days at Approx 17-20 Knots?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2024, 10:50:31 AM »
I had heard that Gene Shafer was a master at wind flying.  Perhaps Bob Hunt could chime in here because Bob and Gene were flying buddies.

I see you haven't been reading Bobby's posts and probable book post also. D>K
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Offline Dick Pacini

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Re: How Hard Is It to Fly in Windy Days at Approx 17-20 Knots?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2024, 11:39:35 AM »
I see you haven't been reading Bobby's posts and probable book post also. D>K

Probably read and forgotten.  Thanks for the poke.
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Offline Kafin Noe知an

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Re: How Hard Is It to Fly in Windy Days at Approx 17-20 Knots?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2024, 08:01:01 PM »
Thanks everyone for your responses.

It explains why I was having such a hard time to fly my plane. I thought I had messed up my engine setup or anything else, because that day I also had solved my erratic RPM ups & downs on the ground and up in the air.

I guess I'll have to check that again when the wind is calmer to make sure that my setup is actually okay.


Best,
Kafin
INA 1630
I fly: P40, XEBEC, and Cardinal

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: How Hard Is It to Fly in Windy Days at Approx 17-20 Knots?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2024, 08:25:48 PM »
Thanks everyone for your responses.

It explains why I was having such a hard time to fly my plane. I thought I had messed up my engine setup or anything else, because that day I also had solved my erratic RPM ups & downs on the ground and up in the air.

I guess I'll have to check that again when the wind is calmer to make sure that my setup is actually okay.

  Based on your description, it was working fine - it did what I would have expected.

But it is very difficult to learn anything about trim or engine setup in conditions like you describe. Dan more-or-less said it - in turbulence, you are continually just reacting to random inputs, and it is very hard even for the experienced to figure out what is the airplane and what is the air.

    Brett

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: How Hard Is It to Fly in Windy Days at Approx 17-20 Knots?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2024, 10:40:12 PM »
I hope that we haven't scared you off from flying at all in windy conditions.  If you are going to compete someday, and it does appear that is your goal, you have to be able to fly in wind, all kinds of wind.  What we are saying is that you cannot trim a plane in wind.  At best 5mph for basic and certainly not over 10 for fine tuning and never if it is turbulent.  What you do need to learn is what your plane will do, or not do, in wind.  So fly it and find out.  I see a lot of crashes where the pilot tries desperately to save the plane when just staying off of the controls and letting it settle down and free flight for a bit was all that was necessary.  If you have learned your planes limits you won't be tempted to push it into an unrecoverable position and, you have to fly it to learn those limits.  You did the right thing flying in that wind because you learned something about your plane.   There is something worse than too much wind - no wind!

Keep it up - Ken
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: How Hard Is It to Fly in Windy Days at Approx 17-20 Knots?
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2024, 12:29:33 PM »
May have missed it, but piloting technique can really help. Opposite of flying in calm (where you back away from the plane to avoid it flying in wake turbulence), on a windy day, you can reduce the line tension by shuffling your way downwind as your plane goes through each maneuver. Start at the upwind side of the pilot's circle and shuffle towards the downwind side of the pilot's circle. You probably don't have a pilot's circle marked out, but 5' radius, 10' diameter, as called for in our rules (FAI rules would be metric but very close to same...I'd guess 3 meter dia.) gives considerable effect, and you'll like the difference it makes.   

If you're using a uniflow tank without muffler pressure, the engine will likely quit heading dead upwind, which can be a problem. With muffler pressure, it will quit anywhere on the circle. I tend to prefer muffler pressure for that and several other reasons, but not everybody agrees.

Your posts about engine run inconsistency was solved before I read it, but IMO, the threads on the rear NV of the .25LA and .40/.46LA are really sloppy and I can't see them working very well. I've always put an aluminum backplate and front NV assy. on mine. Yes, I tried the stock RNV on the .25 and didn't like it at all. Randy Smith sells the best NV Assy's...they're a few $ more, but none are cheap anymore, and Randy's are a big step up in design and quality, IMO.  H^^ Steve

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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: How Hard Is It to Fly in Windy Days at Approx 17-20 Knots?
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2024, 12:55:47 PM »
Your posts about engine run inconsistency was solved before I read it, but IMO, the threads on the rear NV of the .25LA and .40/.46LA are really sloppy and I can't see them working very well. I've always put an aluminum backplate and front NV assy. on mine. Yes, I tried the stock RNV on the .25 and didn't like it at all. Randy Smith sells the best NV Assy's...they're a few $ more, but none are cheap anymore, and Randy's are a big step up in design and quality, IMO. 

 

There's nothing wrong with a PA spraybar assembly, but it is not appropriate for this situation. There is  no good reason to have a rank beginner  - with a working engine and apparently no local support -  take it apart and drill a hole in it using expensive and erzatz parts,  and as a bonus, lose 30+% of the power. Which will then necessitate an aftermarket venturi to get the power back. Now you have a completely unknown set of conditions, and he is back trying to diagnose it over the internet.

       It is not necessary, but if someone insists on the  change to a front spraybar, then at least use the one that fits already:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/OS-FP-LA-20-46-NEEDLE-VALVE-ASSY-DIRECT-REPLACEMENT-NIP/293139719059?hash=item44407d2393:g:M8sAAOSw5eBcolX7

       I have found the stock rear needle and backplate to be entirely satisfactory, as has been demonstrated extensively. But of course I am not too picky about engine runs....

          Brett

Online Doug Moisuk

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Re: How Hard Is It to Fly in Windy Days at Approx 17-20 Knots?
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2024, 01:24:09 PM »
After observing several top flyers I have come to the conclusion that a a very well trimmed plane in the hands of an experienced flyer can handle that level of wind and more.
Doug Moisuk
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Offline Mark Schluter

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Re: How Hard Is It to Fly in Windy Days at Approx 17-20 Knots?
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2024, 04:42:28 PM »
Kafin
Thank you for starting this interesting discussion about flying stunt in wind. It adds so much difficulty. Contest participation WILL bring us into conditions at or beyond what we've experienced or practiced in. Skipping over the obvious importance of reliable, consistent power and proper trim, I hope to elicit additional specific techniques that can be applied to each maneuver which can help and build confidence, expand one's "comfort zone" etc. Some have been mentioned here already--biasing loops slightly into the upwind side, footwork in the center etc. If you have not seen it, please see Paul Walker's postings on flyinglines for other ideas as well.
http://flyinglines.org/pw.flyinginwind2.html
One specific idea shared with me at a frighteningly windy (and wet) NW regionals by the generous Brett Buck (correct me if I mis-state this): as you transition into the upper loop of Vert8s don't let the plane get fully horizontal; maintain some climb thru that transition. Right off the bat it worked like magic; preserved power/momentum/airspeed to not get "blown out" of the top, increased my confidence to fly this maneuver in wind 100x, and I now totally enjoy titrating this/practicing V8s in stiff wind....all because of one specific thing applied to a snippet of the pattern lasting less than two-tenths of a second.


Offline Brett Buck

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Re: How Hard Is It to Fly in Windy Days at Approx 17-20 Knots?
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2024, 05:50:00 PM »
One specific idea shared with me at a frighteningly windy (and wet) NW regionals by the generous Brett Buck (correct me if I mis-state this): as you transition into the upper loop of Vert8s don't let the plane get fully horizontal; maintain some climb thru that transition. Right off the bat it worked like magic; preserved power/momentum/airspeed to not get "blown out" of the top, increased my confidence to fly this maneuver in wind 100x, and I now totally enjoy titrating this/practicing V8s in stiff wind....all because of one specific thing applied to a snippet of the pattern lasting less than two-tenths of a second.

   And, I was just paying it forward. I got that from the legendary, larger-than-life Big Art himself, at a contest in Detroit in about 1983.

    Just that one little tip illustrated to me one of the basic issues you have flying in the wind - that the airplane may be pointing in a different direction than it is moving. The higher you get in the circle, the bigger the difference is. In the vertical 8, for example, at 5 feet, the airplane is going more-or-less where it is aimed. At 45 degrees, if you let the fuselage get horizontal, the actual flight path is substantially down toward the ground, and as you get to the top of the circle, it pushing you down very strongly and if the nose is horizontal, the flight path is at a pretty steep down angle.

     The effect is that the airplane is being forced towards the ground, and slowing it down on the way up, and speeding it up on the way down. The problem, if you ignore it, is that the maneuver will tend to be forced shorter from top to bottom, the intersection on the way down will also be too low, and it will be going like a bat out of hell, making it very difficult to get the bottom loop  to come out above the ground.

   The correction is to recognize that on the way up, all the turns will tend to be much tighter than normal, so you have to be pretty soft and back of the control pressure on the way up, and don't let the fuselage get horizontal - leave it "short" of the apparent angle, turning "early", then be very gentle on the controls on the outside part, because it will want to turn tighter and not get to the top - and then leave you without enough space to make it on the way down. Right as you get to the top, you have to really start jamming on the controls, because your turns want to open up and will drive the intersection too low, keep turning well "past" the horizontal so you are nose-up, then really hammer the "up" to make sure you are able to make the bottom loop.

    If you do it right, the track of the airplane will be just like it is in the calm, but the angles will look all wrong.

     The same issue applies to all the maneuvers. In the square 8, if you fly with the fuse horizontal across the tops, the flight path will be down and, again, make the ends shorter, leaving you less space. The nose of the airplane needs to be biased a little up towards the top of the circle in either loop, basically, you "under-turn" coming out of the intersections.

       Just this idea, and the idea of "biasing" the maneuvers as I mentioned above, is at least a pretty good start on flying in the wind. Different airplanes, particular different engine and trim notions, require different degrees of compensation. Modern airplanes with aft-CG trim (as pioneered by Paul Walker) and tuned pipe engines take much less correction than, say, the mid-70's style ST46 airplanes with nose-heavy trim of the day. There plenty of times in the ST46 days I was just sitting there like a spectator in the bottom of the round 8, holding as much "up" as it had, and hoping it missed the ground.

      Brett

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: How Hard Is It to Fly in Windy Days at Approx 17-20 Knots?
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2024, 06:49:57 PM »
....as you transition into the upper loop of Vert8s don't let the plane get fully horizontal; maintain some climb thru that transition. Right off the bat it worked like magic; preserved power/momentum/airspeed to not get "blown out" of the top...
Mark, I have found that true in even mild winds almost to the point that I never let the plane get 100% horizontal or vertical (except squares).  Brett has pretty well covered the physics so I will comment on the visual.  IMHO if you let the plane get truly horizontal (or vertical) you are going to have a visual flat.  By starting to reverse direction just before you reach horizontal you make a very narrow "X" which looks to an observer like a perfect rule book intersection.  I came to this conclusion from watching slow motion of a lot of former and current champions.  The ones that made the "x" looked perfect in real time the ones that didn't looked like they had flats.

Some of this changes with an active timer.  You can hear my plane "downshift" and take off going into the top half of the V8.  It lets me get to the top in even the worst of winds and backs off on the way down.  I also subscribe to having at least double the control movement you need to fly a pattern.  All of us have experienced making that last turn too low and yelling out something like "Turn you SOB!".  As I found out, with electric they can hear you.  ~^

Ken
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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: How Hard Is It to Fly in Windy Days at Approx 17-20 Knots?
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2024, 09:11:27 PM »


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