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Author Topic: How Did We Fly These Things?  (Read 10505 times)

Offline Chuck_Smith

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How Did We Fly These Things?
« on: August 13, 2020, 05:12:27 PM »
I've been having some fun and decided to rejuvenate some ancient stunt ships ( and build a new old design.)

I built a super light Oriental a couple years ago and then brought a vintage Dophin and Skylark back to flying status. All have super running OS35S's in them running uniflow for the classic 4-2-4 break. Man, that sound, the white smoke and the smell of castor oil is like a time machine.

After flying big ships on long lines with pipes - wow, what a difference! I grew up flying these old .35 sized designs and thought they were great back then, but the flying style is so different than today. You really need to let them "flow" through the pattern. Squares are as much about energy management as anything else. You must "fly" the corners, not power through them.  Trimming is everything. Just a little off and they become wobbly goblins on the square 8. 

I really think the modern highly powered ships are so much easier (and fun!)  to fly that I've developed some bad habits they were masking. Flying these old birds has really opened my eyes how to add smoothness and "flow" back to my flying. You have to trust the ship even when the line tension is almost nil. Wind? Hang on.  How about the way they bumped up and down in level flight in not-so-bad air?

I've also regained my deep respect for the things George, Les and Lou and all the others from the day did with them. I remember as a junior watching Les fly at the NATS.

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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2020, 05:49:09 PM »
I've been having some fun and decided to rejuvenate some ancient stunt ships ( and build a new old design.)

I built a super light Oriental a couple years ago and then brought a vintage Dophin and Skylark back to flying status. All have super running OS35S's in them running uniflow for the classic 4-2-4 break. Man, that sound, the white smoke and the smell of castor oil is like a time machine.

After flying big ships on long lines with pipes - wow, what a difference! I grew up flying these old .35 sized designs and thought they were great back then, but the flying style is so different than today. You really need to let them "flow" through the pattern. Squares are as much about energy management as anything else. You must "fly" the corners, not power through them.  Trimming is everything. Just a little off and they become wobbly goblins on the square 8. 

I really think the modern highly powered ships are so much easier (and fun!)  to fly that I've developed some bad habits they were masking. Flying these old birds has really opened my eyes how to add smoothness and "flow" back to my flying. You have to trust the ship even when the line tension is almost nil. Wind? Hang on.  How about the way they bumped up and down in level flight in not-so-bad air?

I've also regained my deep respect for the things George, Les and Lou and all the others from the day did with them. I remember as a junior watching Les fly at the NATS.
You just can't communicate this to the crowd that started flying with the pipes.  I dropped out in the mid 80's after 20 years of flying stunt and came back in in 2016.  I had to forget everything I knew about flying the pattern and I am just now learning to guide the plane instead of flying it.  Overhead 8's with plenty of line tension?  I remember when they were a religious experience.  And the body language!  A lost art.

Thanks for letting me know that I am not the only one - Ken
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Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2020, 06:02:03 PM »
I have been flying an Ebejer Neptune on the Fox I built recently and think it is very relaxing to fly but yes,  the timing is quite different from my modern stuff and not sure I can mix both in a weekend of contest flying.  Thinking to try in the next few weeks in Dallas and Tulsa.  I am amazed though at how well some of these antique machines can fly once you get them trimmed.  Wish I had this Neptune 45-50 years ago.  I think I'd have quite a few more trophies to dust......They feel so delicate on the handle but will kick it when that Fox goes vertical!  I know you need to keep these airplanes at or below 40 ounces to get the most from airplane and engine.  Above that and they get sloppy.  The Neptune and Dolphin I have are both 40.  The Skylark was a couple ounces heavier but had the the McCoy .40 which made up the difference.  That one I extended the wings to 56" as Ed had originally designed it.  I refinished it and ruined it in the process.  If I live long enough to finish my bucket list I may build another.  Next?  Looking at the Talon or Novi.......

Dave
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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2020, 03:47:00 AM »
You learn a lot flying em in the wind .

Comparison maybe a centerboard yacht in a chop / starting whitecaps ( waves ) and a steam roller .

I think half the fun IS getting them along through the vissistudes , as long as they stay running .
Sometimes overhead they even go stationary for a moment or two , in a head wind .

Id much rather drive a old 70s rear wheel drive sideways than these sticky steel belt radials on tarmac .
kinda like dirt road driving Vs freeway , maybe .

'" You look like the kind of person who enjoys a challenge "   ;D VD~ S?P

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2020, 04:07:28 AM »
if you go to 1:14:20 here , youll get the V8 Escort .

Rudimentary . B.O.P. / Leyland 4.4 litre alloy V8 ( like in a Range Rover ) Wholsley 110 diff - locked . Steel wheels .
' Do you run Bilsteen or Koni front stuts ?' .
Escort Sport , says the pig farmer . glass doors bonnet & boot & plexiglas side & rear glass . Runs 120/140 mph . In the top ten in the international rallys in N Z in the 70s ,
as on the stages in the open hill country the works escorts etc were geared for around 105 , so itd carve great chunks of their times , at times .
A 350 Chev Monaro won it once ( the Heatway Rally ) .

The Quattro then later 4WD rewrote the book. But lacks the drama, in some eyes .


Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2020, 04:53:04 AM »
Down the city where everthings out of whack , like vthe EDITING funtions .

ABOVE is an ' Analogy ' or comparitive thing . Little 1600 ( & 1300 & 1100 )escorts etc worked too .
in fact theyre less dangerous perhaps in novice hands . Only aces past 90 mph on the dirt .

Shark 45 & Scarrinzi here had it sussed . Choked down Fox 59 ( about 10 ounce weight ) and 56 inch span . Could be 48 plus two 4 inch wingtips,
though looks like 50 plus 3 in tips . So ' cheats in ' a bit of area . etc. and so on .



A .35 thing thatll fit in the trunk and flys on 60 ft. of .015 up to around 50 ounce weight is going to get some flying in , if you give it a go .
Less expensive holes in the ground , when it all goes wrong . Too .

Offline C.T. Schaefer

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2020, 06:18:11 AM »
Thanks for the picture..  LS at Rich's Hobbytown. Wasted a lot of time there myself.  TS

Offline don boka

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2020, 08:44:53 AM »
I still have fun now and then with my Barnstormer which I built many, many years ago. It is very light, covered in Jap tissue with many repaired places. Finish is Berry brothers nitrate dope with a coat of their butyrate dope. Engine is a four head bolt and three bolt rear cover. Fox 29 with Austin Craft NV and usually a Y&O 10/5 prop. Very primitive with no adjustable lead ours or weight box! It flies like it is floating especially on overheads and absolutely does not like the present pattern or square maneuvers but is still fun!
Pretty much old time Detroit stuff but no I/Beam!

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2020, 09:38:01 AM »
ChuckSmith.  Your observations are right on!  In the early '50s, we struggled to get enough engine power from our weak engines to get through a pattern.  The main thrust was devising "hop up" schemes.  Modern engines have put the emphasis on aircraft trim, instead of engine power.
89 years, but still going (sort of)
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Offline Tony Drago

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2020, 11:23:50 AM »
That's Larry's Blue Angel.

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2020, 01:30:37 PM »
Funny this thread popped up. I have a classic United that has been the bane of my existence trying to get it trimmed. I have been flying big 75 powered plopped planes for the last five years without flying anything else for the most part. The United I fly only a few times a year and everytime I fly it, I complain about how it doesn’t do this or it doesn’t do that. I try to have it trimmed and flown like my big planes and it’s not possible, I have to finesse it the whole way through the flight and have to think about energy management. With the 75 up front, that’s the least of my concerns and I just get after it.

One of these days I’ll put some more time into it and attempt to trim it more
Matt Colan

Online Brent Williams

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2020, 01:52:23 PM »
This thread isn't the best infomercial for advertising the performance of classic ships! 


Laser-cut, "Ted Fancher Precision-Pro" Hard Point Handle Kits are available again.  PM for info.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/brent-williams'-fancher-handles-and-cl-parts/ted-fancher's-precision-pro-handle-kit-by-brent-williams-information/

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2020, 02:23:40 PM »
if you go to 1:14:20 here , youll get the V8 Escort .

Rudimentary . B.O.P. / Leyland 4.4 litre alloy V8 ( like in a Range Rover ) Wholsley 110 diff - locked . Steel wheels .
' Do you run Bilsteen or Koni front stuts ?' .
Escort Sport , says the pig farmer . glass doors bonnet & boot & plexiglas side & rear glass . Runs 120/140 mph . In the top ten in the international rallys in N Z in the 70s ,
as on the stages in the open hill country the works escorts etc were geared for around 105 , so itd carve great chunks of their times , at times .
A 350 Chev Monaro won it once ( the Heatway Rally ) .

The Quattro then later 4WD rewrote the book. But lacks the drama, in some eyes .



For what' it's worth.

Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2020, 02:49:58 PM »
Funny this thread popped up. I have a classic United that has been the bane of my existence trying to get it trimmed. I have been flying big 75 powered plopped planes for the last five years without flying anything else for the most part. The United I fly only a few times a year and everytime I fly it, I complain about how it doesn’t do this or it doesn’t do that. I try to have it trimmed and flown like my big planes and it’s not possible, I have to finesse it the whole way through the flight and have to think about energy management. With the 75 up front, that’s the least of my concerns and I just get after it.

One of these days I’ll put some more time into it and attempt to trim it more
Matt:

It just hit me why you think it needs more trimming.  It doesn't and never will fly like a 75 ship.  I have 20 years flying classics when they were "state of the art".  Hell I am a Classic, and except for needing about 1/2 turn down on the elevator horn I thought it flew remarkably well.  In fact it flew better than most classics. 

Ken
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Offline Chuck_Smith

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2020, 02:59:09 PM »
Oh yeah, the other funny part. When the engine stops, the plane stops. If you get 3/4 of a lap in before  touchdown it's a miracle. And then they bounce like beach balls on the wire gear. It really is a fun challenge.

And yes, when you have a 40 Oz ship with an OS 35S and a $5.00 prop you can fly fearlessly, LOL! I may have to start flying Nostalgia comp. It's got to be fun.

Chuck
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Offline John Park

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2020, 02:17:27 AM »
if you go to 1:14:20 here , youll get the V8 Escort .
Of the Mk. 1 'Flying Coke-bottle' Escort, it was famously said: "As long as you haven't got to look out of the REAR window to see which way you're going, the car is still under control".
You want to make 'em nice, else you get mad lookin' at 'em!

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2020, 07:17:13 AM »
Oh yeah, the other funny part. When the engine stops, the plane stops. If you get 3/4 of a lap in before  touchdown it's a miracle. And then they bounce like beach balls on the wire gear. It really is a fun challenge.

And yes, when you have a 40 Oz ship with an OS 35S and a $5.00 prop you can fly fearlessly, LOL! I may have to start flying Nostalgia comp. It's got to be fun.

Chuck
You paid $5.00 for your props?  I paid $.75 for my last 10-6EW.  It lastes 35 years!
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If it is not broke you are not trying hard enough.
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Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2020, 09:14:39 PM »
One of the most enjoyable planes I ever built was my 1951 Aldrich Nobler with the first of the Stalker 61s on a 11 x 7 " prop. Chugged around in ANY conditions. Slowly and loved going slow. You could get a nice quality corner and drive..

If you always put limit on everything you do, physical or anything else. It will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee.

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Offline curtis williams

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2020, 10:31:25 PM »
That gives me a idea, Ringmaster with a PA 75.
Might be fun!
No Fox 35 burp.

Offline Dennis Leonhardi

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2020, 08:32:40 AM »
The answer to the question is really in the question - we FLY (FLEW) them.  Sometimes every inch of the way.

I'm not much of a stunt flyer, but I have laid claim to "nursing" things like a very heavy and nose-heavy (so bad it was difficult to keep it from tipping over on its nose) a Midwest 48" P-51 profile Mustang with a terribly puny McCoy Red Head .29 through what, at least from the inside of the circle, resembled "the full pattern".

As a teen who really didn't enjoy building much, I also flew a Ringmaster with the outboard wing completely sheared off and a Fox .35 Stunt engine up front in a combat contest on an extremely windy day - and won a match by getting multiple cuts! 

I surely can't speak to flying a serious stunt machine at any point in time, but I do agree with a statement Air Ministry made: "You learn a lot flying em in the wind."  I used to really enjoy "wind flying" - no power at all - combat models for some pretty lengthy flights.  But it required fairly certain knowledge of what the airplane would and wouldn't do at any point in the circle - and lots of practice.

The topic title really caught my attention, because I think at least some of us routinely flew with equipment and/or in conditions that we wouldn't even consider today.  Then again, I'm often wrong ... 

Photos: December of 1959.

What could be more fun and ... logical? than flying combat models on cold Minnesota days on a field of ... snow?  When the engine quit, several minutes of whipping or wind flying were highly recommended to avoid the sound of a hot engine landing in cold snow!

If engines didn’t start easily on cold days, pouring some fuel on the engine and lighting it with a match seemed to make perfect sense.  Pilots must get their flight hours in!

It was pretty windy when the second photo was taken at about the same time.  The wind is blowing Tom’s hair and my sister’s hair and scarf around and we’re holding the models down for a photo.  The Flite Streak is missing the outboard wing, but no problem - right?

We musta been crazy ... but we sure had fun!
Think for yourself !  XXX might win the Nats, be an expert on designing, building, finishing, flying, tuning engines - but you might not wanna take tax advice from him.  Or consider his views on the climate to be fact ...

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2020, 08:48:41 AM »
The answer to the question is really in the question - we FLY (FLEW) them.  Sometimes every inch of the way.

I'm not much of a stunt flyer, but I have laid claim to "nursing" things like a very heavy and nose-heavy (so bad it was difficult to keep it from tipping over on its nose) a Midwest 48" P-51 profile Mustang with a terribly puny McCoy Red Head .29 through what, at least from the inside of the circle, resembled "the full pattern".

As a teen who really didn't enjoy building much, I also flew a Ringmaster with the outboard wing completely sheared off and a Fox .35 Stunt engine up front in a combat contest on an extremely windy day - and won a match by getting multiple cuts! 

I surely can't speak to flying a serious stunt machine at any point in time, but I do agree with a statement Air Ministry made: "You learn a lot flying em in the wind."  I used to really enjoy "wind flying" - no power at all - combat models for some pretty lengthy flights.  But it required fairly certain knowledge of what the airplane would and wouldn't do at any point in the circle - and lots of practice.

The topic title really caught my attention, because I think at least some of us routinely flew with equipment and/or in conditions that we wouldn't even consider today.  Then again, I'm often wrong ... 

Photos: December of 1959.

What could be more fun and ... logical? than flying combat models on cold Minnesota days on a field of ... snow?  When the engine quit, several minutes of whipping or wind flying were highly recommended to avoid the sound of a hot engine landing in cold snow!

If engines didn’t start easily on cold days, pouring some fuel on the engine and lighting it with a match seemed to make perfect sense.  Pilots must get their flight hours in!

It was pretty windy when the second photo was taken at about the same time.  The wind is blowing Tom’s hair and my sister’s hair and scarf around and we’re holding the models down for a photo.  The Flite Streak is missing the outboard wing, but no problem - right?

We musta been crazy ... but we sure had fun!
Those were the days.  I thought I was the only one that *Wind Flew* as a normal part of the flight.  You learn so much doing that.  So much in fact we made planes designed for just that with no engines.  Combat in the show - the memories!

Ken
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2020, 03:15:09 PM »
I've been having some fun and decided to rejuvenate some ancient stunt ships ( and build a new old design.)

I built a super light Oriental a couple years ago and then brought a vintage Dophin and Skylark back to flying status. All have super running OS35S's in them running uniflow for the classic 4-2-4 break. Man, that sound, the white smoke and the smell of castor oil is like a time machine.

After flying big ships on long lines with pipes - wow, what a difference! I grew up flying these old .35 sized designs and thought they were great back then, but the flying style is so different than today. You really need to let them "flow" through the pattern. Squares are as much about energy management as anything else. You must "fly" the corners, not power through them.  Trimming is everything. Just a little off and they become wobbly goblins on the square 8. 

I really think the modern highly powered ships are so much easier (and fun!)  to fly that I've developed some bad habits they were masking. Flying these old birds has really opened my eyes how to add smoothness and "flow" back to my flying. You have to trust the ship even when the line tension is almost nil. Wind? Hang on.  How about the way they bumped up and down in level flight in not-so-bad air?

I've also regained my deep respect for the things George, Les and Lou and all the others from the day did with them. I remember as a junior watching Les fly at the NATS.

Hi Chuck
There is an answer  to that !  Ask Bill Werwage  what happens  when you take a Vulcan or ARES  , remove the  Fox35  and insert an Aero Tiger !  Huge difference in performance
You can also  ask Him  or Bob McDonald  about  taking a USA-1  removing the  HP 40  and  inserting  a  PA 40 !  Big Time  difference,  Take a McDonald   Stiletto and  insert a  AT36  or  Brodak 40,  or  take the Stiletto 660 and insert a  PA  40, these have all been done  before, with  many ships,  T Birds, Noblers, LARKS, Skylarks, Caprice , and a host or other  Classic, and  old time Planes,  Ask Dale Barry  about his  Cheater humongous, or  the Barnstormer
makes for  more  ways  to have  fun!

Regards
Randy

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2020, 04:10:56 PM »
Hi Chuck
There is an answer  to that !  Ask Bill Werwage  what happens  when you take a Vulcan or ARES  , remove the  Fox35  and insert an Aero Tiger !  Huge difference in performance

     Certainly. A lot of the Classic "purists" are on about "preserving the era" or some such - but not when you are sticking an Aero-Tiger with a Phelps props in it. Completely different animal that could not have existed in 1965. It being a "mere" 36 is practically no limitation at all. I could fly my regular airplane with an Aero-Tiger 36 with at least some success, and it would go great guns in a ThunderGazer.

   I don't care enough to pursue it, but my alternative for classic would be to allow people to design their own airplanes with any materials or design features they want - but you have to use a Fox/McCoy/Forster/Johnson and a prop that was available in 1969.

     I predict it would very quickly result in a bunch of designs that look a lot like real classic planes, because the people then were just as sharp as we are now, they built the best airplanes they could within the limitations of the power available, and we could probably only do slightly better despite having another 50 years to work on it. Make a Nobler with the flaps cut down and a slightly larger tail volume and you would just about have it.

    Brett

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2020, 07:06:45 PM »
my alternative for classic would be to allow people to design their own airplanes with any materials or design features they want - but you have to use a Fox/McCoy/Forster/Johnson and a prop that was available in 1969.

     I predict it would very quickly result in a bunch of designs that look a lot like real classic planes, because the people then were just as sharp as we are now, they built the best airplanes they could within the limitations of the power available, and we could probably only do slightly better despite having another 50 years to work on it. Make a Nobler with the flaps cut down and a slightly larger tail volume and you would just about have it.

    Brett
y1 y1 y1
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2020, 09:00:10 PM »
     Certainly. A lot of the Classic "purists" are on about "preserving the era" or some such - but not when you are sticking an Aero-Tiger with a Phelps props in it. Completely different animal that could not have existed in 1965. It being a "mere" 36 is practically no limitation at all. I could fly my regular airplane with an Aero-Tiger 36 with at least some success, and it would go great guns in a ThunderGazer.

   I don't care enough to pursue it, but my alternative for classic would be to allow people to design their own airplanes with any materials or design features they want - but you have to use a Fox/McCoy/Forster/Johnson and a prop that was available in 1969.

     I predict it would very quickly result in a bunch of designs that look a lot like real classic planes, because the people then were just as sharp as we are now, they built the best airplanes they could within the limitations of the power available, and we could probably only do slightly better despite having another 50 years to work on it. Make a Nobler with the flaps cut down and a slightly larger tail volume and you would just about have it.

    Brett

Brett  my friend , you missed my point, it was  about performance, NOT trying to set or change  rules,  and I may also say I have been at many many contest for classic and Old Time,  I do NOT  see  people  doing  what you suggest, there  are  massive amounts of  classic and  old time  planes  at contests, Flying  with very modern equipment, CF props, gears, internals, composite parts, AAC engines  ABC  engines  Electric  engines  etc.
Yes i have seen a couple  of  people  show up  with  "equipment of the  ERA "  but  NOT many
Maybe it would be  interesting  to hold a contest like you describe !  BUT  the rules, as they are now  do NOT support it

Regards
Randy

Offline RandySmith

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2020, 09:04:21 PM »
   "" I don't care enough to pursue it, but my alternative for classic would be to allow people to design their own airplanes with any materials or design features they want - but you have to use a Fox/McCoy/Forster/Johnson and a prop that was available in 1969.  ""


What about  Super Tiger , or  OS MAX  ? or  would  you be  stuck  with a  FOX 59 ?   and  hate to mention this, but  you would  quickly  run out of those  engines, if you had  any sort of  large  response  to the idea . Interesting  idea to do, but  realistically we would need  to  , gear up, and remanufacture  some  OLD motors !

Randy

Offline bob whitney

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2020, 09:52:36 PM »
dont forget the K&B Green Head 35
rad racer

Online Brett Buck

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2020, 10:01:12 PM »

What about  Super Tiger , or  OS MAX  ? or  would  you be  stuck  with a  FOX 59 ?   and  hate to mention this, but  you would  quickly  run out of those  engines, if you had  any sort of  large  response  to the idea . Interesting  idea to do, but  realistically we would need  to  , gear up, and remanufacture  some  OLD motors !

    You make an excellent point. Here's my amended proposal:

allow people to design their own airplanes with any materials or design features they want - but you have to use a Fox/McCoy/Forster/Johnson/Supertigre/OS baffle-piston motor and a prop that was available in 1969 - except for Randy Smith, who has to use an Ohlsson 23 Sideport.   

     Better?

     Brett

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2020, 10:57:00 PM »
dont forget the K&B Green Head 35
Was that the same as the Stallion?  The list grows.

How about simply, the plane, power plant and pilot have to have been designed before 1970. 

Ken
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Offline John Park

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2020, 03:24:53 AM »
A winter project: I've got an ancient Merco .29, practically un-run, and the AeroModeller plan of Bill Morley's Thunderbolt, which is a sort of Smoothie clone.  Building it under 40 oz. (it's got a lot of wood in it) may take some doing, but we'll see...
You want to make 'em nice, else you get mad lookin' at 'em!

Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2020, 06:35:31 AM »
Of course everyone has their take on what is "Classic." For me it is preserving and flying the great and character-filled designs of the past. Hey, the appearance of some of those old Classic designs is what sparked my interest in Stunt in the first place. But, by stipulating that they must be flown using the engines of the past is just not my thing. The old engines are becoming harder and harder to find, and their performance - or lack thereof - is usually dismal. Seeing these old designs in the air - no matter what the propulsion is - is the thrill for me. And, seeing just how good they really are when given some real power is just icing on the cake.

If we want the Classic event to be revived to what it was several years ago, we need to make it achievable for the masses. Let the prop be spun by glow, Ignition, steam, nuclear, electric, or by two chipmunks on a turntable; let's just preserve the great aesthetics of that bygone era for as long as we can. If we become too purist, the the event will diminish even more than it already has.

Bob Hunt 

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2020, 08:06:18 AM »
Nitro , short lines and light airframes.
Joe Gilbert

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2020, 08:48:55 AM »
In Australia the OTS rules reward heavily (or possibly mandate)  period equipment be used.   The result is poor participation. 

I fall on the side of participation.

One is always free to use period equipment if they want. 

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2020, 10:24:11 AM »
Of course everyone has their take on what is "Classic." For me it is preserving and flying the great and character-filled designs of the past. Hey, the appearance of some of those old Classic designs is what sparked my interest in Stunt in the first place. But, by stipulating that they must be flown using the engines of the past is just not my thing.

   If you didn't know better, you might even think I was not serious about it. Ohlsson 23 Sideport for you, too.

    But, since you brought it up - you know how much "high power classic" compares to the actual era better than I do. Yes, the airplanes fly better than they did - tremendously better, an order of magnitude better, a completely different deal. What is it, exactly, that you are trying to preserve? Because it certainly isn't the experience of flying like they used to in the day. If it's just the appearance, why bother flying them at all? Just do appearance judging, that takes an hour.

Quote
If we want the Classic event to be revived to what it was several years ago, we need to make it achievable for the masses. Let the prop be spun by glow, Ignition, steam, nuclear, electric, or by two chipmunks on a turntable; let's just preserve the great aesthetics of that bygone era for as long as we can. If we become too purist, the the event will diminish even more than it already has.

  You want classic to be revived, invent a youth serum. I am almost 60 years old, approaching "old man status", and I was *9* years old in 1970. The only thing I remember about the classic era is that my dad crashed his big red airplane in the parking lot, it turns out it was a Nobler. Classic is falling away because there are ever-fewer people left that even knew about model flying or were alive in the 60's. The pool of people who ever flew in a stunt contest in the 60's is dwindling rapidly, and with a fixed cut-off date, it's only going one direction. That's also why you have both Super 70's and "Rolling Cutoff Classic", whatever we call it.

     A 45-year-old man, middle-aged, was born in *1975*. What the heck to they know or care about classic airplanes from the 60's?  OTS gets around the same problem to a certain extent because the airplanes are typically dead simple to build and it's treated like a kind of goofy fun-fly. A Classic airplane is just as much investment in time and effort as it it to build a modern airplane and generally doesn't fly nearly as well, and there a plenty of people - you know the type - who treat it like it's the Walker Trophy Flyoff, just every other weekend.

     As hard as it might be to believe, I had a youth, too, and I flew my first contest in the *80's*, not the 60's - with a Genesis/ST46.

    Why not allow people to make the tail volume 30% larger and chop off most of the wing asymmetry?   That, you would be all over, and first in line to tell me how bad it was to be "cheating".

    But do something that makes a FAR LARGER difference, like sticking a semi-custom AAC engine in it, and a prop made of materials that would have been exotic on the Lunar Module -  A-OK, go about your business, citizen. Yes, the rules allow it - but what is it that you are trying to do, you restrict almost trivial changes in one area, but allow/encourage/"make-it-nearly-impossible-to-compete-otherwise" something VASTLY more important to the end result.

   I have no problem with people wanting to win a contest by using the best equipment that is legal, I do that all the time. I have no problem with people wanting to preserve the era as some sort of magic time capsule into their youth, far be it for me to interfere. But, you have to see the cognitive dissonance between those two.

   Of course I am not going to propose changing classic (or creating any new event) along the lines I was joking about above. But come on, this is like claiming we are running a classic car show, and allowing fiberglass-body tube-frame funny cars to enter it, and heading off to the drag strip. 

    Brett

   

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2020, 10:30:41 AM »
 ""If we want the Classic event to be revived to what it was several years ago, we need to make it achievable for the masses. Let the prop be spun by glow, Ignition, steam, nuclear, electric, or by two chipmunks on a turntable;""

Uhhhh   Could  I trade in my Ohlsson 23 Sideport .. for  the   two chipmunks on a turntable ?

Randy

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2020, 10:36:34 AM »
Sure, Randy, but finding high-nitro chipmunk food is difficult; don't ask me how I know...  LL~

But, seriously, your Aerotiger 36 made my old Caprice design into a plane with very modern performance. I would not have built a new one (the original was built in 1967 and was initially powered by a Fox 35, and then a Max 35) if the old engines were all I had from which to choose (thank you Sheldon...).

Bob

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2020, 10:37:58 AM »
""If we want the Classic event to be revived to what it was several years ago, we need to make it achievable for the masses. Let the prop be spun by glow, Ignition, steam, nuclear, electric, or by two chipmunks on a turntable;""

Uhhhh   Could  I trade in my Ohlsson 23 Sideport .. for  the   two chipmunks on a turntable ?

  This is what is wrong with stunt today, you have perfectly clear rules, and then people start looking for loopholes.

     No, you can't have chipmunks, and don't even ask about Ross Bagdasarian.

     Brett

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2020, 10:41:29 AM »
Look; if you feed the chipmunks on a very spicy diet you will have achieved internal combustion.

Chipmunks matter... And, they even predate ignition engines.

Bob Hunt

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2020, 10:49:23 AM »
   If you didn't know better, you might even think I was not serious about it. Ohlsson 23 Sideport for you, too.

    But, since you brought it up - you know how much "high power classic" compares to the actual era better than I do. Yes, the airplanes fly better than they did - tremendously better, an order of magnitude better, a completely different deal. What is it, exactly, that you are trying to preserve? Because it certainly isn't the experience of flying like they used to in the day. If it's just the appearance, why bother flying them at all? Just do appearance judging, that takes an hour.

  You want classic to be revived, invent a youth serum. I am almost 60 years old, approaching "old man status", and I was *9* years old in 1970. The only thing I remember about the classic era is that my dad crashed his big red airplane in the parking lot, it turns out it was a Nobler. Classic is falling away because there are ever-fewer people left that even knew about model flying or were alive in the 60's. The pool of people who ever flew in a stunt contest in the 60's is dwindling rapidly, and with a fixed cut-off date, it's only going one direction. That's also why you have both Super 70's and "Rolling Cutoff Classic", whatever we call it.

     A 45-year-old man, middle-aged, was born in *1975*. What the heck to they know or care about classic airplanes from the 60's?  OTS gets around the same problem to a certain extent because the airplanes are typically dead simple to build and it's treated like a kind of goofy fun-fly. A Classic airplane is just as much investment in time and effort as it it to build a modern airplane and generally doesn't fly nearly as well, and there a plenty of people - you know the type - who treat it like it's the Walker Trophy Flyoff, just every other weekend.

     As hard as it might be to believe, I had a youth, too, and I flew my first contest in the *80's*, not the 60's - with a Genesis/ST46.

    Why not allow people to make the tail volume 30% larger and chop off most of the wing asymmetry?   That, you would be all over, and first in line to tell me how bad it was to be "cheating".

    But do something that makes a FAR LARGER difference, like sticking a semi-custom AAC engine in it, and a prop made of materials that would have been exotic on the Lunar Module -  A-OK, go about your business, citizen. Yes, the rules allow it - but what is it that you are trying to do, you restrict almost trivial changes in one area, but allow/encourage/"make-it-nearly-impossible-to-compete-otherwise" something VASTLY more important to the end result.

   I have no problem with people wanting to win a contest by using the best equipment that is legal, I do that all the time. I have no problem with people wanting to preserve the era as some sort of magic time capsule into their youth, far be it for me to interfere. But, you have to see the cognitive dissonance between those two.

   Of course I am not going to propose changing classic (or creating any new event) along the lines I was joking about above. But come on, this is like claiming we are running a classic car show, and allowing fiberglass-body tube-frame funny cars to enter it, and heading off to the drag strip. 

    Brett

   

Brett: As I wrote in my first post on this subject, Classic is different things to different people. I am not suggesting that we allow mods to the airframes, just that we CONTINUE to allow any type of power to be used to propel these airplanes of our youth. Up to this point there has been no legislation to prohibit power choices. If someone wants to make that rules change proposal, that is okay by me; I'm even older than you are and have very little time left in "the game" anyway. By the way, how did you like your Genesis?

Later - Bob

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2020, 11:22:17 AM »
One interesting irony and contradiction that I see in classic is the zealous adherence to the original plan form for the sake of "fidelity."
Classic is now operated, in practice, as if no builder ever modified a plane from the original plan form or kit. 
In actual practice "back in the day," so many planes were heavily modified from what arrived in the kit or plans. 
Many of the greats names from the era built several iterations of their signature planes that varied greatly from the plans are now available.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 09:37:26 PM by Brent Williams »
Laser-cut, "Ted Fancher Precision-Pro" Hard Point Handle Kits are available again.  PM for info.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/brent-williams'-fancher-handles-and-cl-parts/ted-fancher's-precision-pro-handle-kit-by-brent-williams-information/

Online Brett Buck

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #40 on: September 09, 2020, 11:34:55 AM »
Brett: As I wrote in my first post on this subject, Classic is different things to different people. I am not suggesting that we allow mods to the airframes, just that we CONTINUE to allow any type of power to be used to propel these airplanes of our youth. Up to this point there has been no legislation to prohibit power choices.


    I am not debating the legality; it obviously is legal. But I cannot see the point when we want to be hard-core over the minor details  - but are going out of our way to encourage absolutely anything in the area that really matters. I don;t really care but it's very unclear what the underlying vision might be.


Quote
By the way, how did you like your Genesis?

  I am not sure you want to claim this one, but it was the Dick Mathis kit, the 630 square inch "40FSR" version. I had the controls far to fast and started with a 5" handle, so I had a lot of problems, but when I got a Baron handle and could narrow the spacing, it was pretty good. It was one of those deals where if I got it exactly right, it really stood out, and if I got it wrong, it really stood out. Very good at times,  but also very unforgiving.

    Brett

Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #41 on: September 09, 2020, 12:18:03 PM »
Yeah, you're right, Brett; I don't want to lay any claim to "that" kit Genesis. Mathis decided that the actual Genesis that I won the World's with was too large to kit economically, and so opted for the Genesis 40, for which I had plans, but had never actually built one for myself. He commissioned me to cut the wings for the kit, but took a lot of liberties with the design and the distribution of wood in the plane. Never did hear of a "good" one from that kit. To add insult to injury, I never did get the agreed upon royalty from Dick for the 50 or so kits he produced. Live and learn...

Bob 

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #42 on: September 09, 2020, 02:01:43 PM »
Yeah, you're right, Brett; I don't want to lay any claim to "that" kit Genesis. Mathis decided that the actual Genesis that I won the World's with was too large to kit economically, and so opted for the Genesis 40, for which I had plans, but had never actually built one for myself. He commissioned me to cut the wings for the kit, but took a lot of liberties with the design and the distribution of wood in the plane. Never did hear of a "good" one from that kit. To add insult to injury, I never did get the agreed upon royalty from Dick for the 50 or so kits he produced. Live and learn...

Bob

   It flew OK, the biggest problem was my control setup. Of course, it was *much* better suited to an ST46 than the big one, it didn't demand extraordinary power by ST46 standards, and pretty much all of my ST46 airplanes were about that size as a consequence.  They all flew pretty well, sort of a razor-edge thing, but pretty unforgiving. I think the first one was about 46-47 ounces, and I cloned it several times, the last one being around 44 ounces, which is pretty decent even by ST46 standards.

     That one, I was flying out at the sewer plant site in Redwood City went I first moved here, and I see some guy wander up and start watching. So I am really drilling stuff, finished a great flight, and really pushed the 4-leaf pullout, I am going to really show this guy what it's about!. Drilled it as late as I dared, he's standing dead upwind and *nothing*, straight into the ground, perfect 90 degree angle, up the the leading edge of the wing. Literally 10 feet in front of the spectator. Of course, I have to go over there, I mumble something like "the controls must have failed". This guy says, "Hi, I'm Ted Fancher"

  Brett


Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2020, 02:54:36 PM »
Couldn't agree more, Brett, about the size of the Genesis 46 Mk III as powered by the ST 46. Nice on reasonable air days, but not quite up to the task on very windy days. Huge difference when I installed the OS FSR 40 ABC engine and dropped from .018 lines to the .015s, and then even better later with the .014 solids. In fact, that's one of the reasons I opted to design a smaller Genesis for the 1980 World Championships and the 1980 Nats. That plane was not the Genesis 40 design that I referenced in the last post, but a totally new ship which had 630 square inches of area and a swept-forward trailing edge. With the FSR 40, that ship was just killer... right up to the point when the wind got blustery. Power wasn't the problem; a twisty fuselage was... Still, it was good enough to garner a Silver Medal at the 1980 Worlds and a second place at the 1980 Nats a few weeks later (Darn that McDonald guy...)

In good air that ship was the very best "scriber" that I ever owned, and that's why - after my sabbatical into RC Pattern from 1981 to 1986 - I chose to use the same "numbers" on my 1987 Crossfire design. The Crossfire was so named to reflect the crossfire of thinking between RC pattern and CL Stunt design. I took some things to Pattern with me, and I returned with a few things from RC (notably a rudder...). Alas, that ship came out a bit too heavy to be an instant winner, but after a diet program that removed more than 8 ounces in the refinish, it had its day in the sun, ultimately placing fourth at the 1991 Nats. The power plant was changed also from the FSR to an OPS 40 with pipe. A story for another time. Consider this thread now de-hijacked.

Later - Bob

 

Offline curtis williams

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2020, 02:56:23 PM »
This has been a interesting discussion about classic airplanes.  The use of more modern engines is a natural thing.  I remember back in the early 1990's, Gordon Delaney talked me into trying a O.S. max-s 35.  What a improvement over warn out used fox 35's.
Then he introduced me to O.S. FP 40's. Wow power!
Power is fun.
I think  the way "we" flew these things was barely, and our memories make it better than it really was.
I crashed my share of Ringmasters with a Fox 35.  They would just stop running in weird places like the top overhead 8, no i didn't save it.
Now we use O.S. fp 25's.  Constant power makes a big difference.

The biggest problem is getting kids to get interested in making something with

Offline curtis williams

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2020, 02:59:17 PM »
their hands.  There might be a app for that I'm not sure.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2020, 05:09:42 PM »
The answer is getting them away from the computer games and internet.   My grand daughters built a couple of 1/2A's that have yet to be flown.  Emmy, the one who would fly if I would stop at McDonalds after wards, stopped when a person told her young ladies don't fly model planes.   Even after I told her about all the young ladies I watched and help fly model planes.  Now back on subject why another stunt event, except an event for the guys to collect another trophy. 

Just told the wife that I would love to have all the grand kids flying and me just sitting and watching. So I'll just keep dreaming. D>K
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2020, 05:27:55 PM »
Couldn't agree more, Brett, about the size of the Genesis 46 Mk III as powered by the ST 46. Nice on reasonable air days, but not quite up to the task on very windy days. Huge difference when I installed the OS FSR 40 ABC engine and dropped from .018 lines to the .015s, and then even better later with the .014 solids. In fact, that's one of the reasons I opted to design a smaller Genesis for the 1980 World Championships and the 1980 Nats. That plane was not the Genesis 40 design that I referenced in the last post, but a totally new ship which had 630 square inches of area and a swept-forward trailing edge. With the FSR 40, that ship was just killer... right up to the point when the wind got blustery. Power wasn't the problem; a twisty fuselage was... Still, it was good enough to garner a Silver Medal at the 1980 Worlds and a second place at the 1980 Nats a few weeks later (Darn that McDonald guy...)

In good air that ship was the very best "scriber" that I ever owned, and that's why - after my sabbatical into RC Pattern from 1981 to 1986 - I chose to use the same "numbers" on my 1987 Crossfire design. The Crossfire was so named to reflect the crossfire of thinking between RC pattern and CL Stunt design. I took some things to Pattern with me, and I returned with a few things from RC (notably a rudder...). Alas, that ship came out a bit too heavy to be an instant winner, but after a diet program that removed more than 8 ounces in the refinish, it had its day in the sun, ultimately placing fourth at the 1991 Nats. The power plant was changed also from the FSR to an OPS 40 with pipe. A story for another time. Consider this thread now de-hijacked.

Later - Bob

 

Wow, Bubba!  Who's the young dude with the Genesis?

Kidding aside, I reckon that three bladed prop was one of the earliest of the many "Bubba Stunt Stuff" firsts isn't it!  The one you nailed together (or glued...or something) from one and a half Rev Up 10X6s or something???  How many stunt guys are using three bladed props nowadays...like...all of 'em! and it's your fault.

Just what  I needed.  Another guilt trip for failing to give you your annual atta-boy...ops, -person...award for being stunt's ultimate innovator.  You made a lot of talented guys a lot better than they would otherwise have been and even a bunch of us who took a while to jump on your bandwagon(s).  (with, of course, the exception of the diabolically evil "Costco AAAs by the dozen sans castor oil abomination" masquerading as a legitimate CLPA propulsion plot.) I nonetheless grit my teeth to say it but... Thanks again, Bubba!

Ted


Offline wwwarbird

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2020, 08:59:55 PM »
Nitro , short lines and light airframes.

 Ditto!  y1
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2020, 04:36:27 AM »
bolt a .61 into anything pre 1970 and your going to be in for a fun time ;)

Fly and dominate so they change the rules..
dont play by them.

If you always put limit on everything you do, physical or anything else. It will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee.

...
 I Yearn for a world where chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned.

Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #50 on: September 10, 2020, 07:28:48 AM »
Gee Ted, you are making me blush, and that's pretty hard to do!  b1

As always you give me way too much credit. Yeah, I like to try new things, but rarely are they planned out to any degree. I'm just sort of a train wreck that keeps wrecking in a positive direction (well, most of the time). There have been a few things I've developed about which I'm proud. First on that list is the Lost-Foam system of building, followed closely by the development of improvements in foam wing technology. Beyond those two things most of my successes in innovation have been of the "blind squirrel finding an acorn" variety. And, hey, that's not a bad thing - if it works!

To get back a bit to this thread, we all revere the models of our youth in different ways. I grew up (well, I got older at least...) around Larry Scarinzi and Red Reinhardt, and they were genuinely innovative people. They were much larger than life to a young enthusiast, and it was their antics and their models that formed my path in modeling - along with the support and never-ending love of my father. Watching Larry fly his Grey Ghost through the pattern at about 80 MPH with a howling Johnson 35 in the nose was sensory overload for me, and for all the youngsters who were members of the famed Union Model Airplane Club back in the 1950s. Larry was always on a search for more power, and I guess that's why I liked stuffing high performance engines in my Classic models; I think I was subliminally trying to emulate Larry's approach.

Red was also a performance guy, but he was a more introspective person. He was a gifted machine designer and he worked for and with my father for more than 30 years. I spent a lot of time in dad's machine shop working with, and learning from Red how to work metal properly. I can tell you for certain that even though Red liked the hot glow motors of the era he would have jumped at the chance to use the more modern engines had they been available back then. And he would have just loved electric power, too. Red had no allegiance to an era, to any set paradigms, or any popular thinking. So I guess it was Red's influence that made me want to try anything new in hopes of finding more performance. And, striking off in some wild and seemingly non-traditional directions has on occasion put me at odds with the status quo of the event. Fortunately, many of the weird things I've done, or have been involved in have become staples of the event over time. Cases in point: Cored foam wings, tuned pipes, and being an early advocate of electric power (have to bow to Mike Palko and Walt Brownell as the actual pioneers of that power mode for our event...).

As I wrote in an earlier post on this thread, it is the aesthetic aspects of the old Classic models that turns me on. And to be able to fit them with more power to see just how well they can fly/could have flown is to me a very respectful thing. Don't you think the designers of those models would have loved to see them performing up to their full potential? If not then we certainly view this question differently. I'll not apologize for my views, nor will I disrespect anyone else's views on the subject; we all see things from a different perspective.

Bob Hunt 

       

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: How Did We Fly These Things?
« Reply #51 on: September 10, 2020, 06:23:21 PM »
One of the most enjoyable planes I ever built was my 1951 Aldrich Nobler with the first of the Stalker 61s on a 11 x 7 " prop. Chugged around in ANY conditions. Slowly and loved going slow. You could get a nice quality corner and drive..

Good to hear from you, PJ! Have been wondering what you're up to. Also Mr. Mark Scarborough. I hope all is well for both of y'all.  y1 Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.


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