Author Topic: First time Pipe-What plane ? (Read 4976 times)

Leester · « **on:** February 18, 2007, 07:23:21 AM »

I am purchasing a OS 40VF for an attempted first pipe plane. What would be a good plane (kit or scratch build) for the learning process ? All my engine questions are in the Engine forum.
Thanks

RC Storick · « **Reply #1 on:** February 18, 2007, 07:27:31 AM »

I know you won't want to hear my answer but any modern piped design for a .40 will work. Any of Randy's airplanes, are airplanes that have a great track record.

Leester · « **Reply #2 on:** February 18, 2007, 07:31:45 AM »

Sparky: Nothing wrong with the answer, I just don't want to over or under plane the learning process.

Jim Oliver · « **Reply #3 on:** February 18, 2007, 08:31:25 AM »

Leester,

Not intended to "Dis" Randy's planes ( I have a Tempest II kit and have PA 61 RE/pipe/header on order) but when I saw Dee Rice fly his Oriental II with piped 40 I was very impressed. Relatively simple design/construction but great flying performance! (I'm sure the fact that Dee was flying it had nothing to do with the planes performance!)

Don't know how the weight of the OS 40VF compares to the engine Dee is using. Could be a factor.

Jim

Richard Grogan · « **Reply #4 on:** February 18, 2007, 08:50:27 AM »

Quote from: Jim Oliver on February 18, 2007, 08:31:25 AM

Leester,

Don't know how the weight of the OS 40VF compares to the engine Dee is using. Could be a factor.

Jim

Good point Jim. The VF is the RE version of the SF. Its dual BB and case construction makes it a Heffer! Mine's
12.5 oz with an alluminum tounge muffler and no prop or spinner! Add the header and pipe and its getting fatter!

peabody · « **Reply #5 on:** February 18, 2007, 09:40:13 AM »

My vote would be the UHP Saturn, unless you build like the pros and can keep the weight way, way down. A Tempest will be 65 ounces with a minimal finish....I would shoot for something with a 60 ounce weight....

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #6 on:** February 18, 2007, 10:15:16 AM »

If I projected a .40 size airplane at 60 oz, I would think about a SERIOUS diet!

Bill Little · « **Reply #7 on:** February 18, 2007, 01:01:51 PM »

Hi Lee,

Aaron, and I, used the 40 VF for quite a while. We have not had a RoJett engine, but have several PAs, and the VF is a "different animal". We will leave that for the "Engine Section".

Paul Walker has really likes the VF and has used them in his Impact which is a large airplane. The VF on a pipe, set up correctly is more like a "4-2" .60 as far as the planes it will fly.

The Impact, SV series (both "sizes"), Trivial Pursuit, Saturn, Junar, Geo XL, Oriental Plus, etc., will all work with the VF. I have, and have seen, planes in the 64-65 ounce range fly well on the 40 VF. My Geo Juno is a Saturn and it went for several years with the 40 VF and is a "hot rod" with that engine. Just make sure you set it up properly, that is the key.

Bill <><

Randy Powell · « **Reply #8 on:** February 18, 2007, 02:05:40 PM »

And I can tell you that my 625 square inch, 52oz, Slider is killer with a 40VF. Set up exactly as Brett Buck recommended, it would very well.

Howard Rush · « **Reply #9 on:** February 18, 2007, 07:11:33 PM »

I can't complain about my Impact with the VF. It weighs in the high 60s. The VF seems sensitive to prop pitch. Other than that, it's really easy to get along with. It needs no modification or breakin.

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #10 on:** February 18, 2007, 07:25:51 PM »

I think Randy Smith's "Shrike" is the right size for the .40VF, judging from Monty Summach's last summer in Edmonton. The Saturn would be good, or PTG's Diva. In all cases, I'm considering your Oklahoma wind and heat. I think the Impact is a bit too much airplane for the .40VF in the wind and heat in your 'hood.

Steve

RandySmith · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2007, 09:53:54 PM »

Quote from: peabody on February 18, 2007, 09:40:13 AM

My vote would be the UHP Saturn, unless you build like the pros and can keep the weight way, way down. A Tempest will be 65 ounces with a minimal finish....I would shoot for something with a 60 ounce weight....

]

Hi Rich Beg to differ

that is Not Really true at all

Curts Contrada's Tempest ll weighed in at 56 ounces with a front row Concours finish..sorta blows that !

Other have the same plane finished under 60 ounces with a very good finish on them, all built right out of the laser kit

The Dreadnought and STARFIRE is the same basic airplane and dozens of them have been built at 60 ounces and under by many many people

That being said I would rather put a VF in a Staris , Shrike Satona size plane though
Regards
Randy

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #12 on:** February 19, 2007, 12:43:03 AM »

Quote from: Tom Niebuhr on February 18, 2007, 10:15:16 AM

If I projected a .40 size airplane at 60 oz, I would think about a SERIOUS diet!

VF40's on a pipe are very serious engines, Tom. They'll haul a 62 oz Impact to the winners circle at the Nats. Many times.
Chris...

Jim Morris · « **Reply #13 on:** February 19, 2007, 09:58:10 AM »

Hello everyone, Just a thought, maybe Randy can clarify, but isnt the full size Vector a little bit smaller than say the Tempest? Maybe a good design for the 40. I do know the Staris is a little smaller.

Gordon Tarbell · « **Reply #14 on:** February 19, 2007, 10:25:06 AM »

Is the VF46 with a pipe the same animal as the 40 but with a little more grunt and same engine weight? I was under the impression these used the same case just slightly different disp.. Maybe I should have put this under the engine section .

Shultzie · « **Reply #15 on:** February 19, 2007, 10:32:29 AM »

Quote from: Tom Niebuhr on February 18, 2007, 10:15:16 AM

If I projected a .40 size airplane at 60 oz, I would think about a SERIOUS diet!

After all these years.....I keep wonder how these almost 70 oz. mega engine planes perform so well in stunt with so little square inches of wing area?
If the Sr. Newtons laws of gravity are even remotely accurate...'

SPEED MUST BE THE ONLY SAVING GRACE FACTOR...AND MAKES ME PONDER JUST WHAT KIND OF LAP SPEEDS ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?

?

RandySmith · « **Reply #16 on:** February 19, 2007, 01:11:37 PM »

Quote from: Jim Morris on February 19, 2007, 09:58:10 AM

Hello everyone, Just a thought, maybe Randy can clarify, but isnt the full size Vector a little bit smaller than say the Tempest? Maybe a good design for the 40. I do know the Staris is a little smaller.

Hello Jim

The Vector (not Vector40) is 630 Sq Inches, the Staris Satona, Shrike series are 640 sq inches and designed for a piped 40, although you can use other engines..ie" Super Tiger 51

Regards
Randy

RandySmith · « **Reply #17 on:** February 19, 2007, 01:14:26 PM »

Quote from: gordon tarbell on February 19, 2007, 10:25:06 AM

Is the VF46 with a pipe the same animal as the 40 but with a little more grunt and same engine weight? I was under the impression these used the same case just slightly different disp.. Maybe I should have put this under the engine section .

Hi Gordon

You are correct the VF 46 is the same basic case as the 40 VF, differance is just bore and stroke
I did 100s of these motors in both 40 and 46VF for stunt flyers and they are interchangable in mount diminsions but the 46 will put out more power with a larger prop, Bill Rich and Ted Fancher are 2 who used the 46VFs with great results.

Regards
Randy

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #18 on:** February 20, 2007, 11:38:09 AM »

Quote from: Shultzie on February 19, 2007, 10:32:29 AM

After all these years.....I keep wonder how these almost 70 oz. mega engine planes perform so well in stunt with so little square inches of wing area?
If the Sr. Newtons laws of gravity are even remotely accurate...'

SPEED MUST BE THE ONLY SAVING GRACE FACTOR...AND MAKES ME PONDER JUST WHAT KIND OF LAP SPEEDS ARE WE TALKING ABOUT??

Donaldo,
"40 sized plane" doesn't mean anything anymore. We don't use McCoy 40's or Torp 40's, except a few weirdo's in Classic. The airplane size isn't dictated by the engine as much anymore.

Tom, I think, also was under this same line of thinking when he posted.

A piped OS VF40 is a very powerful engine, but the airplanes are big. The Impact is over 700 squares so some sizes seen in this thread are not consistent with 70 oz models.

Like Randy says, a Vector is bigger than a Vector 40, but since the smaller Vector 40 is an ARF, some people don't know any better. An SV-11 is a nice sized, 700 plus sq model that can weigh a ton and fly well by virtue of it's thick wing with very blunt leading edge and forward high point. The power from a VF 40 can easily, by adjusting the pipe and selecting the right prop, haul the thing around. The reason the model flies well at weight, is the airfoil. The old engines couldn't make the power to haul the drag in the old days so the models had little skinny airfoils. Now the piped 40's can haul the big model.

The old times I remember the lap times being somewhat speedy. I fly 5.3 to 5.2 at the fastest.

The VF40 on a pipe is old school now, actually. The big thing now is huge .76 and .91 displacement with huge propeller, or so I read. I'm still figuring out the pipe on a PA61. That used to be the FAI displacement limit! No more...

Whipping the 66 oz Shark around to the entry of the reverse wingover cause the Torp 45 can't handle the job is a long gone day, Donaldo, but fun to remember. Sometimes I richen-up my Tigre 60 in the old Golden Falcon and fly a sweet, slow pattern with lots of big, swoopy maneuvers at 6+ second laps, just for fun. But not at the contest!

Chris...

Shultzie · « **Reply #19 on:** February 20, 2007, 01:03:15 PM »

POINT WELL TAKEN, my friend in balso..CHRISALDO!

Although being reeeeealllly old' and out of touch!!!!
The idea of flying an 70 to 90 oz. stunt model with a .90 sized powerplant in the nose....still makes me PONDER the possibility that perhaps that I might just might have to go to the gym, take steroids, and work with bar-bells again.

BAR-BELLS?

Isn't that the same name that we gave to those models from the GONE GOSSLIN'GOOD OL' DAYS that utilized big heavy engines with 10 ounces of fuel tank, and in order to bring the CG's back into balance....the builder would have to add another 10 oz. plus to the butt end of the fuselage.
Which in the BUTT END BOTTOM LINE:...
WOULD BE A MODEL THAT WOULD BAR-BELL BOBBLE AFTER EACH AND EVERY HARD CORNER OF THE PATTERN that when I see online video's of these newly high powered, high weigh loaded models...
For the most part...I see the pattern being flown with REAALLLY SOFT CORNERS, EGG SHAPED ROUNDS (due to excess model weight?) and then when the video gets around to the squares...
GEEE!
THE LAWS OF GRAVITY...seem to show that same annoying barbell bobble in the corners...JUST LIKE THE GOOD OLD DAYS BEFORE many of the new flyers of today were even born. BLUN AIRFOILS & AIRFOIL SHAPES can only take a flyer sooooo far...ALSO LARGER DIA PROPS, WITH SMALLER PITCH...for that matter, also can only take you sooooo far, until the gyro-effect of that large dia. heavier prop takes over the laws of phyeeeQu's which certainly must add some pretty interesting effects of its own...and last of all.

STIRR IN THE WEIGHT AND DRAG OF THOSE HEAVIER AND LARGER DIA CHAIN LIKE FLYING LINES....(without even mentioning the extra TIP WEIGHT....

Somebody HELP ME UNDERSTAND HOW...ALL THIS EXTRA BAGGAGE OF WEIGHT can still add up to a beautifully balanced and flying stunt model?
Somehow....all this just doesn't fly with my dope-fummmed demented brain?

Bill Little · « **Reply #20 on:** February 20, 2007, 01:24:00 PM »

Deleted

I was only funnin' with you, Don. Like you always like to do. I guess I messed up, but I didn't mean to.

Bill <><

Randy Powell · « **Reply #21 on:** February 20, 2007, 02:04:06 PM »

Oddly, I kept going to bigger and bigger planes with bigger and bigger engines until the last year or so. Now it's smaller planes (600-625 range) with smaller engines. Weirdly, I'm happier.

Having said that, the newest plane (still on the board) is back to a biggish plane again (680sqs) with a relatively big engine (.65). Hmmm....

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #22 on:** February 20, 2007, 07:40:00 PM »

Quote from: Shultzie on February 20, 2007, 01:03:15 PM

POINT WELL TAKEN, my friend in balso..CHRISALDO!
Although being reeeeealllly old' and out of touch!!!!
The idea of flying an 70 to 90 oz. stunt model with a .90 sized powerplant in the nose....still makes me PONDER the possibility that perhaps that I might just might have to go to the gym, take steroids, and work with bar-bells again.

BAR-BELLS? Isn't that the same name that we gave to those models from the GONE GOSSLIN'GOOD OL' DAYS that utilized big heavy engines with 10 ounces of fuel tank, and in order to bring the CG's back into balance....the builder would have to add another 10 oz. plus to the butt end of the fuselage.
Which in the BUTT END BOTTOM LINE:...
WOULD BE A MODEL THAT WOULD BAR-BELL BOBBLE AFTER EACH AND EVERY HARD CORNER OF THE PATTERN that when I see online video's of these newly high powered, high weigh loaded models...
For the most part...I see the pattern being flown with REAALLLY SOFT CORNERS, EGG SHAPED ROUNDS (due to excess model weight?) and then when the video gets around to the squares...
GEEE!
THE LAWS OF GRAVITY...seem to show that same annoying barbell bobble in the corners...JUST LIKE THE GOOD OLD DAYS BEFORE many of the new flyers of today were even born. BLUN AIRFOILS & AIRFOIL SHAPES can only take a flyer sooooo far...ALSO LARGER DIA PROPS, WITH SMALLER PITCH...for that matter, also can only take you sooooo far, until the gyro-effect of that large dia. heavier prop takes over the laws of phyeeeQu's which certainly must add some pretty interesting effects of its own...and last of all.

STIRR IN THE WEIGHT AND DRAG OF THOSE HEAVIER AND LARGER DIA CHAIN LIKE FLYING LINES....(without even mentioning the extra TIP WEIGHT....

Somebody HELP ME UNDERSTAND HOW...ALL THIS EXTRA BAGGAGE OF WEIGHT can still add up to a beautifully balanced and flying stunt model?
Somehow....all this just doesn't fly with my dope-fummmed demented brain?

I understand Sir Don, for I have...well, Dad!

Luckily he has coached me in the modern times intermitently and has a big 'ole Tigre 60 ship that just hangs out there for him. He even flies it sometimes. Two years ago was the last time, and he even entertained me by using an Old Time entry to the Hourglass instead of a wingover!

If you watch the real top guns fly, and I even get some good ones in sometimes, these new ships are flying slowly, about 55mph, and are real easy to judge a corner height as the speed is always about the same.

In the old days the thing was at 35 across the top and speeding to 60 at the bottom. Hard to judge and get a consistent result.

I think the intermediate sized models (like a Shark) might project a smaller corner compared to the Big Un's , but I know my Copperhead bangs the heck out of a corner, no eggy rounds either. It has 770 sq's and weighs 64 oz, full of fuel (for those electric guys I weighed it full). This means a light wing loading and a cracking corner.

Soft corners and eggy rounds are a trim problem, or pilot error, or not using a hard point handle (I'm so happy, Ted).

But Donaldo, Oh Wise One; Sharks are still cool. You can still use "older" designs. Look at Whitely, he does!

When are we going to see you? Southwest tickets to Tucson around March 14th can't be too bank account breaking, you Boeing guys have great retirement packages, I know, you can't hide the truth, you're loaded, come on!!!

How about a compromise, a Sting Ray with a Randy Aero Tiger 36 and a leadout slider. Huh? Come on, you would like it! Next year at VSC, old guys, hangin' around, telling each other the old models flew better...

See ya soon,
Christopolis...

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #23 on:** February 21, 2007, 06:19:40 PM »

Where'd you go, Don?
Chris...