NATS Format

[John Leidle]

  I see the new class at the Nats ... Expert  ,well I don't really agree with the idea but it might actually improve things ,who's to say today? So I guess give it a try. I do however know the current layout of the Nats doesn't really suit me. I get to fly 2 flights Wednesday & Thursday  & if I dont qualify I am done. Four  official flights. I'd prefer to have 3 days to qualify. Maybe start flying Tuesday? Maybe have a throwout flight or day? You might come back with to get judges for 3 days will be too  hard because to get volunteers to work 2 days if hard enough. I also think it would be nice because if the weather ever impedes us we have the hedging of one extra day.
   I don't have the solutions but I do see how it's less than perfect. I heard one guy from California say " 4 days of driving for 4 flights is hardly worth the trip" Try 6 days of driving for 4 flights, 2,413 miles one way from my house.
    I cant say there was a ton of people there this year , I am fine with the location but I want to see more flight time or qualification rounds.
  John   

[Paul Smith]

The current format is a marathon compared to the "rule book" stunt event.  Considering the separate day for appearance judging, I might speculate that the current deal has already reduced entries.

Take a look at Brodak CLPA entries with the usual best one of two officials format.

[john e. holliday]

And if the weather doesn't cooperate that day you are done.   I think PAMPA and the officials have done a great job in running the NATS.   If left up to a very few people they would go back to the day when the Navy Judges set in the hot sun all day waiting for the shut down time.   I remember reading about Goerge Aldrich saying he would get to the NATS site early to get a feel for the weather.   Also how the same weather would do during the day.  Yes he would put in an early flight and see if his score was topped.  Then if he had to, would pull his card and go for broke on the winning flight.   Up to that time I thought they flew by rounds.  When did they start flying by rounds?

[Brett Buck]

The current format is a marathon compared to the "rule book" stunt event.

   The current format is explicitly permitted in the rule book, so it's as much a "rule book" stunt event as what you refer to. For the large number of entries it is *far far better*. It also tremendously reduces (although doesn't entirely eliminate) the luck of the draw with regard to weather and the effects of judge fatigue on the results.

   For a counter, look at the old FAI WC format for qualifying  - which is a lot closer to what you refer to as "rule book stunt". It was an absurd joke that had rounds lasting 36 hours in some cases. The new format, while still less than ideal, is a huge step forward for FAI.

   Arguably, NATs qualifying rounds actually do follow the "best of two" format. Treat each day as a separate contest, and then you combine the results of the Wednesday contest, and the Thursday contest. Actually it is 8 separate contests if you look at it that way.

    Even with 40 entries in a class (average for Open over the last 10 years) the two round format is completely unworkable if you care about removing the randomness.

    You might also consider whether it is a good idea for anyone's rule book to explicitly call out a format. Doing so does not permit variations for the facilities, entries, etc. I think this is a big mistake in the FAI rule book as the WC format is locked down to the least permissible. If you had the WC in Muncie I am sure some international type would force us to have to 2 idle circles even though we could get the round length down to 2 hours using the 4 we have.

    Please don't misunderstand the other argument - Randy, Keith, Ted, Howard, and I, et. cetera, are arguing over how you MAINTAIN the current exceptionally high standard we have had for the NATs. We all are in 100% agreement on what the ultimate goal is, and that is to keep the best contest in the world at this high standard. We differ on the means but not on the goal.

    Note also that this is an argument between long-time die-hard competitors and people who have been at least peripherally involved in the operation of the contest for many years. Any of us will be happy to explain *why* it is the way it is, or how it works, at any length necessary, and why it is the best way to run it that 60+ years of experience has been able to develop. If you have either not been involved in either running it or competing, we will listen to any critiques or comments for improvement but if the suggestion is to do something like "fly everybody together on one circle and take the best of two and that's the winner", you don't understand the issue. At all.

     Brett

[Derek Barry]

Well said Brett!

I particularly like the 2 hour lunches at the WC, it really helps move things along...

Derek

[Trostle]

Well said Brett!

I particularly like the 2 hour lunches at the WC, it really helps move things along...

Derek

And in Spain, ('06) they shut down F2C (Team Race) heats in the afternoon for siesta.

Keith

[Brett Buck]

I particularly like the 2 hour lunches at the WC, it really helps move things along...

     I like  the mid-airs - in STUNT !

   Brett

[BillLee]

And in Spain, ('06) they shut down F2C (Team Race) heats in the afternoon for siesta.

Keith

Until the FAI and F2C Juries told the organizers that the contest was for the benefit of the competitors and not the organizers.  They had to miss a few siestas that week! 

[Derek Barry]

     I like  the mid-airs - in STUNT !

   Brett

I think we have to give some credit to the two pilots who were walking towards each other, even if the circles were not clearly marked.

Derek

[Brett Buck]

Until the FAI and F2C Juries told the organizers that the contest was for the benefit of the competitors and not the organizers. 

  I have heard the converse argument MANY times, by people who should know better. It some cases it was certainly run as if it was just the opposite.

  You hear similar complaints about the Olympics every time, too. Although the IOC stands alone when it comes to corruption/kickbacks/unwarranted self-importance.

   Brett

[Howard Rush]

With the current Nats format, we could eliminate the day between appearance judging and the first qualification day, saving folks thousands of bucks in hotel expenses.  I think it was put there for paperwork.  Most folks (including myself) may want to keep it as a day for practicing, socializing and eating mush at the 12th Street.  Alternatively, we could use the extra day as a pad for inclement weather. 

[Derek Barry]

With the current Nats format, we could eliminate the day between appearance judging and the first qualification day, saving folks thousands of bucks in hotel expenses.  I think it was put there for paperwork.  Most folks (including myself) may want to keep it as a day for practicing, socializing and eating mush at the 12th Street.  Alternatively, we could use the extra day as a pad for inclement weather. 

I like the practice day, not that it helped me this year...

Derek

[the original Steve Smith]

Howard,

Isn't that "extra" day the day we fly Classic and Old Time?  Thinking about it, if you bring an extra airplane or two you could get 2 or 4 more official flights in those events, I know some folks that do.

Thanks!

Steve Smith

[Brett Buck]

With the current Nats format, we could eliminate the day between appearance judging and the first qualification day, saving folks thousands of bucks in hotel expenses.  I think it was put there for paperwork. 

  When Shareen was doing it, they had to do all the scoresheets overnight by hand. The added day helped them tremendously. Maybe if it can be done automatically you don't need it- although if something goes wrong, there's no time to recover.

    Brett
   

[RandySmith]

Right the extra day is there for other NATs events, and practice and sorting out things on the site. We need to keep this I think nbecause we can no longer get on the site early as we have been able to in the past, I think for the last 4 years the site has been closed to us untill Monday, sometimes late Sunday. However not a deal breaker and the format may could be tweeked to take a day away for a shorter NATs.
I do believe if we did this, the extra day should be moved to Saturday, with the Walker Flyoff and top 5 on Friday, that we we would have a RAIn Day if needed

Randy

[Doug Moon]

Right the extra day is there for other NATs events, and practice and sorting out things on the site. We need to keep this I think nbecause we can no longer get on the site early as we have been able to in the past, I think for the last 4 years the site has been closed to us untill Monday, sometimes late Sunday. However not a deal breaker and the format may could be tweeked to take a day away for a shorter NATs.
I do believe if we did this, the extra day should be moved to Saturday, with the Walker Flyoff and top 5 on Friday, that we we would have a RAIn Day if needed

Randy

Yes this makes more sense.  Having an extra day at the begining doesnt work for rain.  If it rains on wednesday then what?  The field is always closed now until late Sunday due to other events needing the space for flyovers.  

You want to really shake/speed it up? How about check in and processing on Sunday afternoon.  Fly rounds 1-4 on Monday, same rotating circle format. In the morning you fly on one circle and in the afternoon you fly on another.  If it rains or weather goes south you can move rounds 3 and 4 to Tuesday morning.  Otherwise you have top20 day on Tuesday.  Then flyoff and championship on Wednesday.  Banquet Wednesday night.  Done.  

[Howard Rush]

Isn't that "extra" day the day we fly Classic and Old Time? 

I forgot about that.  Worse yet, when I brought this up in a discussion at the Nats, somebody mentioned Classic and Old Time, and I again forgot it.

[RandySmith]

You still  really need the extra day early for those who are flying Classic, Old Time, and others, and some of the officials also want to fly 322  or Skill

Randy

[Howard Rush]

  When Shareen was doing it, they had to do all the scoresheets overnight by hand. The added day helped them tremendously. Maybe if it can be done automatically you don't need it- although if something goes wrong, there's no time to recover.   

We may have different failure modes now.  Things that go wrong can get fixed pretty quickly after they are discovered.  The extra time doesn't help if problems don't get discovered until time to fly.  The error I made last year got discovered three days later and could have been fixed in five minutes had we not misdiagnosed it. 

[Derek Barry]

Quit trying to make the week shorter, this is my only vacation. I wish it lasted 2 weeks, one seems to go by so fast!!!

Derek

[Chris McMillin]

John Holiday was referring to the days when the event's flights were done by the competitor giving a card to an administrator and the flight would be put in a que. If there were no competitors ahead of you, you went immediately. This was done until the end of the Navy Nats in Speed and Scale. I think Stunt had started to go to rounds in the early 70's.
Chris...

[Trostle]

(Clip)

 This was done until the end of the Navy Nats in Speed and Scale. I think Stunt had started to go to rounds in the early 70's.
Chris...

I think the last Navy Nats was 72.  Up until that time, you went to the circle and got in the queue to fly.  I think even when flight rotations was posted, there was a lot of jockeying around, called attempts to get the last flight of the day.  By the time PAMPA took over in 74, we assigned flight rotation and I think by then there was a rule that if an attempt was called, the flight was automatically moved down two flights or 20 minutes.  There were many long discussions among the few PAMPA offices about format and improving it.  One of the problems we wanted to get rid of was the previous format allowed only two official flights, the best one to move on to the finals.  The result for most of the entries was that after a year's preparation, the Nats experience was sometime two official flights, or because of weather, luck of the draw, or mechanical problems, the whole thing was over in one 8 minute flight.    The two day qualification process evolved during that time and I think was welcomed by all.  (Well, there was some grumbling by a handfull of the top fliers that thought 4 days of competition was getting to be too much work to complete the contest.  Believe me, there were such complaints.)  I like to think that the one week format including appearance judging, the Classic, OTS and other unofficial events (sometimes 1/2A) culminating in the banquet makes for a package that can be enjoyed and be rewarding for those who bother to attend and have any interest in this magnificent event.  And it is unfortunate that it has to be almost always held at one of the top flying sites for this kind of activity in the world.

Keith

[Howard Rush]

I like to think that the one week format including appearance judging, the Classic, OTS and other unofficial events (sometimes 1/2A) culminating in the banquet makes for a package that can be enjoyed and be rewarding for those who bother to attend and have any interest in this magnificent event.  And it is unfortunate that it has to be almost always held at one of the top flying sites for this kind of activity in the world.

I like to think that, too.  See?  We agree. 

[Chris McMillin]

I think the last Navy Nats was 72.  Up until that time, you went to the circle and got in the queue to fly.  I think even when flight rotations was posted, there was a lot of jockeying around, called attempts to get the last flight of the day.  By the time PAMPA took over in 74, we assigned flight rotation and I think by then there was a rule that if an attempt was called, the flight was automatically moved down two flights or 20 minutes.  There were many long discussions among the few PAMPA offices about format and improving it.  One of the problems we wanted to get rid of was the previous format allowed only two official flights, the best one to move on to the finals.  The result for most of the entries was that after a year's preparation, the Nats experience was sometime two official flights, or because of weather, luck of the draw, or mechanical problems, the whole thing was over in one 8 minute flight.    The two day qualification process evolved during that time and I think was welcomed by all.  (Well, there was some grumbling by a handfull of the top fliers that thought 4 days of competition was getting to be too much work to complete the contest.  Believe me, there were such complaints.)  I like to think that the one week format including appearance judging, the Classic, OTS and other unofficial events (sometimes 1/2A) culminating in the banquet makes for a package that can be enjoyed and be rewarding for those who bother to attend and have any interest in this magnificent event.  And it is unfortunate that it has to be almost always held at one of the top flying sites for this kind of activity in the world.

Keith

What's with the sarcasm at the end, Keith?
Chris...

[Trostle]

What's with the sarcasm at the end, Keith?
Chris...

Chris,

For my part, I think Muncie is a treasured resource.  It is just that there has been some negative comments on this forum about the Nats always being at Muncie.  What many of those who advocate moving the Nats around do not comprehend is the tremendous logistics challenge the AMA has if the Nats are held at different locations as well as getting all of the manpower needed.  Yes, the SIGs run many of the various events, but the AMA still needs their infrastructure to support the entire show and that is built in when the Nats are in the backyard of the AMA.  Yes, Muncie is a time and resource handicap for those here in the West (and I can still associate with the West Coast having been in LA for 25 years making that trip to Muncie, more often as an official than as a competitor), but the West Coast has been amply represented over the years, so many have and will continue to make that trip.  It is interesting that a proposal was submitted to the F2B Team Selection committee to have the Team Trials in Tucson as an alternative to Muncie, and guess what, the proposal was soundly rejected.  So much for moving our major events (Nats and Team Trials) around.  So yes, my comment about Muncie as a perpetual Nats site may have sounded a bit cynical, even though personally, I have no problem with it.

Keith

[Howard Rush]

I like Muncie, too, despite not getting my knees back operational yet after the trip.  This year was especially pleasurable because I got to stop at the Fargo contest on the way home. 

Mind you, the Team Trials venue is determined by a vote of the program participants, who are the attendants of the last Team Trials or two, so there is some inertia in moving it. 

[Chris McMillin]

Chris,

For my part, I think Muncie is a treasured resource.  It is just that there has been some negative comments on this forum about the Nats always being at Muncie.  What many of those who advocate moving the Nats around do not comprehend is the tremendous logistics challenge the AMA has if the Nats are held at different locations as well as getting all of the manpower needed.  Yes, the SIGs run many of the various events, but the AMA still needs their infrastructure to support the entire show and that is built in when the Nats are in the backyard of the AMA.  Yes, Muncie is a time and resource handicap for those here in the West (and I can still associate with the West Coast having been in LA for 25 years making that trip to Muncie, more often as an official than as a competitor), but the West Coast has been amply represented over the years, so many have and will continue to make that trip.  It is interesting that a proposal was submitted to the F2B Team Selection committee to have the Team Trials in Tucson as an alternative to Muncie, and guess what, the proposal was soundly rejected.  So much for moving our major events (Nats and Team Trials) around.  So yes, my comment about Muncie as a perpetual Nats site may have sounded a bit cynical, even though personally, I have no problem with it.

Keith

Hi Keith,
Thanks, the facts are well known I'm sure, the general audience will appreciate the details.  Being an emotional idealist, I don't share some of your thoughts on Muncie Nats. The circles are level,  though.
As far as the Team Trials deal, it reminds me of the reason that Ben Franklin insisted on the electoral college. 
Chris...

[EddyR]

At the 1957 Nats you stood in line to get your plane processed and you were given a number for your age class. Starting early in the morning you got in line and flew when your turn came. I stood in line for a friend and held his model as he was off flying FF. The person behind me in line was GMA. The model I was holding was a pre-released TopFlight Nobler sent to dealers. My friend Jerry took the kit and built it with a bubble canope. Probably the first modified Nobler kit. George new what it was right away.He asked a lot of questions and I admitted I didn't build it but was just keeping the place in line.
Ed

[john e. holliday]

I like Muncie, too, despite not getting my knees back operational yet after the trip.  This year was especially pleasurable because I got to stop at the Fargo contest on the way home. 

So how did you do in Fargo.   Been up there one time and really enjoyed it.   That is when I learned we have two Red Rivers in the good ole USA.   Also the river flows to the North.   

[Brett Buck]

For my part, I think Muncie is a treasured resource.  It is just that there has been some negative comments on this forum about the Nats always being at Muncie.  What many of those who advocate moving the Nats around do not comprehend is the tremendous logistics challenge the AMA has if the Nats are held at different locations as well as getting all of the manpower needed.  Yes, the SIGs run many of the various events, but the AMA still needs their infrastructure to support the entire show and that is built in when the Nats are in the backyard of the AMA.  Yes, Muncie is a time and resource handicap for those here in the West (and I can still associate with the West Coast having been in LA for 25 years making that trip to Muncie, more often as an official than as a competitor), but the West Coast has been amply represented over the years, so many have and will continue to make that trip.  It is interesting that a proposal was submitted to the F2B Team Selection committee to have the Team Trials in Tucson as an alternative to Muncie, and guess what, the proposal was soundly rejected.  So much for moving our major events (Nats and Team Trials) around.  So yes, my comment about Muncie as a perpetual Nats site may have sounded a bit cynical, even though personally, I have no problem with it.

      There is no doubt that the Muncie site is a fantastic place to have a stunt contest. I went to some of the "traveling NATs", not many, but enough to know how good Muncie is.

        But I posit that a big part of attendance issue is indeed a matter of people not being able/willing to make the same trip over and over, particularly from the West Coast. This year, I think David was the only person of the regular group to attend, and he ran it. When it started being in Muncie, we (Cal/Az) would routinely have 5-6-7 entries in Open, and similar in advanced. Add 15 people to the total and the turnout gets back to about what we have had in the past. I am sure there are a number of others in a similar boat across the country, you just can't see taking 2 weeks to go to Muncie 1.5 times a year. You can see that the attendance has shifted from a decent sampling of the entire country, to the people who can make the trip in a day. It held on through inertia for a while, but after a while the effort and cost becomes too much.

   Bottom line, I can come up with maybe 30 more people right off the bat, just from around the West coast and Arizona, that would likely attend the NATs if it wasn't such a time and money sink to make the trip. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that we will have more entries at Golden State than we did in the NATs official events.

   I also think that the locals (i.e anyone within a day's drive, basically, Kansas to the East coast) are also wearing out on the idea. Because it is no longer a special event, it's just another contest.

   Of course you and I would agree on the cost of moving it around, it was always a source of contention that the NATs would lose $50,000 and the AMA sport fliers would routinely have a conniption fit over that much money spent for maybe 1000 people. We also had some pretty dubious facilities trying to stuff all the events into one week in one area.

    <<I had more but it didn't matter, I don't need any more abuse and name-calling for not jumping on the bandwagon. >>

   Brett

[Trostle]

     
(Clip)


This year, I think David was the only person of the regular group to attend, and he ran it.    
   
(Clip)
   Brett

Brett,  I agree completely with what you say except  ----  and I am not trying to be picky.  Jown Wright can certainly be considered one of the "regular group" from the West to attend the Nats, and he was there this year. 

Maybe there is something about the LA fliers.  The LA and Clovis contests are always well represented by Arizona fliers.  Our Arizona contests (except for VSC) are very rarely attended by the LA group.  Brett, you have appeared here in Tucson almost as often as any from LA.  Not complaining, just sayin'. 

Keith

[Brett Buck]

Brett,  I agree completely with what you say except  ----  and I am not trying to be picky.  Jown Wright can certainly be considered one of the "regular group" from the West to attend the Nats, and he was there this year. 

Maybe there is something about the LA fliers.  The LA and Clovis contests are always well represented by Arizona fliers.  Our Arizona contests (except for VSC) are very rarely attended by the LA group.  Brett, you have appeared here in Tucson almost as often as any from LA.  Not complaining, just sayin'. 

   Well, the LA group is less active than it once was, once a bunch of people who shall remain nameless bailed out to Tucson. Not that I blame you, that's not a hard choice. Most of the people I was considering were the usual crew around Northern California (a core of maybe 25-30 people) and those crazy guys from Tucson (another 15 or so, easily). If I add correctly, that's 83% of this years NATs official entries and that ignores the 15 more we might get from the Pacific Northwest and 10 or so from LA.

     By the way, I love coming to the Tucson contests. OTS and Classic really aren't my thing and I am always otherwise occupied during VSC. The SWR is a great contest and it's usually a good time to get out of town for a nice weekend. But I was afraid I wrecked the contest the last time I was there.

     Brett

[Trostle]

(Clip)
        By the way, I love coming to the Tucson contests. OTS and Classic really aren't my thing and I am always otherwise occupied during VSC. The SWR is a great contest and it's usually a good time to get out of town for a nice weekend. But I was afraid I wrecked the contest the last time I was there.

     Brett

I do not think that you should feel that you wrecked the contest the last time you were here.  You sort of gave a textbook demonstration on how the pattern should be flwon.  And I think all who observed your flights felt that way.  I just hope you were made to feel as welcome as I know all ae glad that you come.

Keith

[Brett Buck]

I do not think that you should feel that you wrecked the contest the last time you were here.  You sort of gave a textbook demonstration on how the pattern should be flwon.  And I think all who observed your flights felt that way.  I just hope you were made to feel as welcome as I know all ae glad that you come.

   Don't misunderstand, I felt very and enjoyed myself immensely, felt like one of the guys. I did however get the impression that some people declined to enter when they found out I was there. I didn't want to cause anyone else to miss out.  I was very deep in yet another spacecraft anomaly and it would have been a difficult weekend to come anyway.

   Brett

[Bill Little]

I can certainly see how Paul, Brett, Howard, Ted, David, and others, would grow weary of the trip to Muncie since it has been held there for 16 years now.  It is difficult for me to make and I am much closer, so the 4 days of driving (if y'all can make it in 4 days, round trip) I can see would become very old after many years.

The money spent, days lost of vacation, or work, and time demands is a major undertaking.  Personally I do not have an answer.  Rotating the NATS around the country is probably not going to happen again in our lifetimes.  I also do not see a way to shorten up the proceedings, or otherwise soften the blow of the expenses, which has to be a consideration of probably 99% of attendees.

Along with this, we are trying to come up with ways to increase attendance/participation.  It becomes a very daunting task.

Bill

[RandySmith]

      There is no doubt that the Muncie site is a fantastic place to have a stunt contest. I went to some of the "traveling NATs", not many, but enough to know how good Muncie is.

        But I posit that a big part of attendance issue is indeed a matter of people not being able/willing to make the same trip over and over, particularly from the West Coast. This year, I think David was the only person of the regular group to attend, and he ran it. When it started being in Muncie, we (Cal/Az) would routinely have 5-6-7 entries in Open, and similar in advanced. Add 15 people to the total and the turnout gets back to about what we have had in the past. I am sure there are a number of others in a similar boat across the country, you just can't see taking 2 weeks to go to Muncie 1.5 times a year. You can see that the attendance has shifted from a decent sampling of the entire country, to the people who can make the trip in a day. It held on through inertia for a while, but after a while the effort and cost becomes too much.

   Bottom line, I can come up with maybe 30 more people right off the bat, just from around the West coast and Arizona, that would likely attend the NATs if it wasn't such a time and money sink to make the trip. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that we will have more entries at Golden State than we did in the NATs official events.

   I also think that the locals (i.e anyone within a day's drive, basically, Kansas to the East coast) are also wearing out on the idea. Because it is no longer a special event, it's just another contest.

   Of course you and I would agree on the cost of moving it around, it was always a source of contention that the NATs would lose $50,000 and the AMA sport fliers would routinely have a conniption fit over that much money spent for maybe 1000 people. We also had some pretty dubious facilities trying to stuff all the events into one week in one area.

    <<I had more but it didn't matter, I don't need any more abuse and name-calling for not jumping on the bandwagon. >>

   Brett

Hi Brett

There are now many from the East Coast that do not make the NATs because of distance and time/money, If the NATs is held In Va. you will loose more from the West Coast  and if it is held in CA you will loose many more from the east Coast, so it will have an effect in both directions

Randy

[Brett Buck]

I can certainly see how Paul, Brett, Howard, Ted, David, and others, would grow weary of the trip to Muncie since it has been held there for 16 years now.  It is difficult for me to make and I am much closer, so the 4 days of driving (if y'all can make it in 4 days, round trip) I can see would become very old after many years.

   It's 3 days each way - roughly 800 miles each day. I have considered trying 2 days on the way back, which is 1200 miles a day (stopping in Cheyenne wyoming after about 17-18 hours) on the way back. Paul has done it, but I never had the energy on the first day on the way back.

    I did it twice last year.

    And in any case, we aren't the biggest part of the problem. We are the die-hards. Its the other 20-30-40 people that are avid and active fliers around here and regularly attend our local contests that can't make it due to the time and cost involved. If you haven't already developed the habit or the ritual of going, it's almost inconceivable to start at this point.

    Brett

[Brett Buck]

Hi Brett

There are now many from the East Coast that do not make the NATs because of distance and time/money, If the NATs is held In Va. you will loose more from the West Coast  and if it is held in CA you will loose many more from the east Coast, so it will have an effect in both directions

   I have little sympathy for someone who says it's too far when its a day's drive away when I am doing 6 days one year and 12 days the next for the last 10 years.  That's 12 days of *just driving time* to go to the NATs and TT, forget the time spent in Muncie, that is the same for everyone.

    Holding it Virginia VS Muncie would not affect West Coast participation one whit.

    Brett

[Derek Barry]

   I have little sympathy for someone who says it's too far when its a day's drive away when I am doing 6 days one year and 12 days the next for the last 10 years.  That's 12 days of *just driving time* to go to the NATs and TT, forget the time spent in Muncie, that is the same for everyone.

    Holding it Virginia VS Muncie would not affect West Coast participation one whit.

    Brett

You could build a take apart plane and then your travel time would be less than mine. Just sayin.

Derek

[Brett Buck]

You could build a take apart plane and then your travel time would be less than mine. Just sayin.

  Bullshit. No one at the airlines ever caused me issue because of the size of the box. They caused me issues because of the hazmat, which is hardly improved by taking the wings off of it. And how many LiPo batteries did you carry on airliners recently?

    By the way, if it's so easy to get across country with airplanes and a weeks worth of supplies, I suppose you will have no further objections to having the TT in Tucson, Clovis, or Santa Clara next year, right?

    Brett

[Derek Barry]

  Bullshit. No one at the airlines ever caused me issue because of the size of the box. They caused me issues because of the hazmat, which is hardly improved by taking the wings off of it. And how many LiPo batteries did you carry on airliners recently?

    By the way, if it's so easy to get across country with airplanes and a weeks worth of supplies, I suppose you will have no further objections to having the TT in Tucson, Clovis, or Santa Clara next year, right?

    Brett

Calm down buddy, and you bet your ass I would come. I sure as hell wouldn't drive either.

I had absolutely no problems flying in and out of the country with my plane two years ago and I think I know three people that are going to do the same in a few weeks.

Derek

[RandySmith]

   I have little sympathy for someone who says it's too far when its a day's drive away when I am doing 6 days one year and 12 days the next for the last 10 years.  That's 12 days of *just driving time* to go to the NATs and TT, forget the time spent in Muncie, that is the same for everyone.

    Holding it Virginia VS Muncie would not affect West Coast participation one whit.

    Brett

Brett your complaining on the wrong site, the AMA is the only ones that this would do any good to complain about the NATs location
You or I are not going to move it anywhere, The only things this does it makes for more upset people , it does nothing to address your problem

Randy

[Howard Rush]

Going a little further off on that tangent, I wonder if the TSA explosives detectors think nitrate dope is Evil. 

[Derek Barry]

Going a little further off on that tangent, I wonder if the TSA explosives detectors think nitrate dope is Evil. 

What about Death Paint?

Derek

[Steve Helmick]

You can ship a one-piece stunter via Greydog Freight pretty reasonably, with inexpensive insurance, and minimal chance of damage (if properly boxed and packed). Probably can ship Li-Po batteries with it, if you wish, and all the chargers and stuff you need. It is not a glamorous way to ship your model, but it works. You don't have to ride the friggin' bus, either. Probably under $100 each direction, with insurance.

The downside is that they will probably get it there in less time than you would expect, they will only hold it for 3 days, and will then ship it back, so delivery and pickup timing is important. And you will have some trouble finding a rental vehicle that the box will fit into. You will need to bring whatever tools are required to open the box in your airline luggage, and that's a little dodgey if you're thinking about your electric screwdriver (with its Li-Po battery!). A different set of problems to think about and plan for, fer sure.  Steve 

[RandySmith]

You can ship a one-piece stunter via Greydog Freight pretty reasonably, with inexpensive insurance, and minimal chance of damage (if properly boxed and packed). Probably can ship Li-Po batteries with it, if you wish, and all the chargers and stuff you need. It is not a glamorous way to ship your model, but it works. You don't have to ride the friggin' bus, either. Probably under $100 each direction, with insurance.

The downside is that they will probably get it there in less time than you would expect, they will only hold it for 3 days, and will then ship it back, so delivery and pickup timing is important. And you will have some trouble finding a rental vehicle that the box will fit into. You will need to bring whatever tools are required to open the box in your airline luggage, and that's a little dodgey if you're thinking about your electric screwdriver (with its Li-Po battery!). A different set of problems to think about and plan for, fer sure.  Steve 

That is how many from the East go to VSC now and the past many years, Works well, even better is if you can find someone who has a mini van and will lugg your stunter with them  LOL
I have a Li Ion battery in my driver 

Randy

[Doug Moon]

You will need to bring whatever tools are required to open the box in your airline luggage, and that's a little dodgey if you're thinking about your electric screwdriver (with its Li-Po battery!).

Well, you could just use several hasps and locks and then all you need to carry is keys on your key ring...just a thought.  Or ask one of your buddies who is going, from anywhere, to bring an electric screwdriver if you really want to screw it shut all the way around. 

[Derek Barry]

Well, you could just use several hasps and locks and then all you need to carry is keys on your key ring...just a thought.  Or ask one of your buddies who is going, from anywhere, to bring an electric screwdriver if you really want to screw it shut all the way around. 

My box has simple 2 dollar clasp and TSA straps so they can open it easily if needed. No screwdriver needed. Also my plane plus a spare engine, pipe, extra lines, tank, glow driver, and anything else you might need, fit into my box. You can buy fuel when you get there, or mail your batteries.

Derek

[Steve Helmick]

Haven't bought any Li-Po batteries, so I have to ask...how are they shipped to you? USPS, UPS, FedUp? What I'm getting at, they're likely to go by air anyway. Don't they carry some mail/freight on passenger jets? Wouldn't it be strange if you do it all legal and ship your Li-Po batteries and they end up being on the same plane with you?  

PS: If you screw the lid onto your box (for Greydog only), then your box would be a bunch stronger. I think Gary Gingerich's box had something like 66 deck screws holding the lid on. I brought my 110v. Milwaukee screwgun to NW Regionals. The same box has been from AL to AZ, back to AL, back to AZ, to Seattle, from Eugene to AZ, back to Tacoma, then back to AZ...that I know of, about $65 each trip, all with zero model damage. Can't beat it with a stick. 

[EddyR]

There is a answer no one seems to mention. Build a plane and leave it with someone who lives in the area. I keep hearing how many top flyers use the same plane for years and they don't practice much any more. Fly out a week before  the Nats and practice for a week. When I lived in Florida I had two of my old planes still in NY and I used them many times when I went back to contests in the NYS area. You have to adjust to the situation. When I go to Florida from NC now I just borrow a plane from Eric V or Bill Rich.
Ed