News:




  • December 15, 2018, 01:12:33 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Here we go again  (Read 10631 times)

Offline Bill Johnson

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 537
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #100 on: April 25, 2018, 12:24:41 PM »
The simple and probably only, solution to this problem is to simply ignore it!  If they arrest us all then we'll have a terrific opportunity for a voice in the National News!

12,000 model airplane fliers arrested yesterday by the FAA!  Imagine that!

Randy Cuberly

I agree completely, it may come to that. I'm sure you are familiar with Thoreau's "On the duty of civil disobedience"...
Best Regards,
Bill

AMA 350715


Offline Fredvon4

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1634
  • Central Texas
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #101 on: April 25, 2018, 01:03:02 PM »
I kind of doubt the DOT/FAA would swoop down on the NATs


Way back I paid and got refunded the $5 to register...got me a FAA number card

I asked and then educated my Local Sherrif and City police becaus the "how to Guide" they got was very vague and confusing.

As far as I know I am the ONLY ONE citizen in Lampasas county who fly's a Model airplane in the country....Ther are a few R/C guys who belong to a club in another county

With the FAA "How too guide" the local LEOs got and my attempt to educate the Chief of Police and Sheriff...combined with my in the wallet "License" I have no fear

I lamented and pontificated long and loud years ago that the AMA was full of BS claiming Control line was exempted... I have read and re-read every word, sentence, and paragraph of the DOT/FAA ruling.....there are NO exemptions -----excepting the very light micro stuff

I also took the time to read every open public comment and then the DOT/FAA responses....

I suggest a re-read of the final ruling and how they side stepped the Congressional carve out in 336.....They claimed a jurisdictional authority that THE CONGRESS demanded THEY (FAA) manage and cited several precedence....  IMO their argument FOR their decision will pass SCOTUS scrutiny

Brett has it correct ----the problem here is we have zero control over the various government agencies that make rules (de-facto law) and they were given the power to prosecute, jail, and fine citizens....That the Supreme Court upholds these actions, by an un-elected agency, should tell you a lot about how contemptuous they all have of the US Constitution

Did you know that IRS has a SWAT division...so does Texas Parks and Wildlife....HUMMMMM?

You/We no longer have unfettered Free Speech
Nor Gun Rights
Nor many hobbies or vocations...Model airplanes, Ham radio, tinkering on cars, flying real airplanes, etc

And the true evil is just as Brett suggested....the rules always seem to be additive and restrictive mostly punishing Law Abiding citizens who will comply, and have little or no evidence of ever preventing the bad actors from doing more evil and harm....

Very few of the public is even aware that we all (as long as NOT PROHIBITED) can legally buy and shoot a M2 heavy barrel 50 cal machine gun or  Tommy Gun but they want to restrict or out law a lowly M16 5.56mm type rifle....... over 100 million already in law abiding citizens possession for what ever desire the citizen had for buying the thing

Free speech
Hobbies
Self defense Right To Carry and Bear Arms

We are all hostage to public Moral Outrage and Congressional "We Must Do Something" mentality......

Yes also venting.....not much we can do short a constitutional amendments...term limits and making every, and I mean EVERY, congressman be subject to the rules and laws they make
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Perry Rose

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 841
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #102 on: April 25, 2018, 01:13:59 PM »
Has anyone asked about people that hold valid FAA pilot certificates? It seems to me those people should be exempt from any "testing".
I wouldn't take her to a dog fight even if she had a chance to win.
The worst part of growing old is remembering when you were young.

Offline john e. holliday

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 19921
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #103 on: April 26, 2018, 09:34:09 AM »
I think( i know it is some thing I seldom do) I would ask them what is a drone?   hen let them explain how a control line airplane can be considered a drone.   Also with my planes I would ask if who ever it is that I'm fouling up their theater size TV or too noising let them check my planes again.  Only time I have been asked to depart  school parking lot was many years ago when testing a new Rat Racer.   The people on the other side of the road booed the officer as he left.  City ordinance prohibits models flying on school properties. HB~>
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530

Have fun as I have and is still breaking a record.

Offline Chad Hill

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #104 on: April 26, 2018, 11:23:45 AM »
Has anyone asked about people that hold valid FAA pilot certificates? It seems to me those people should be exempt from any "testing".

But, as far as I know, none of the current FAA airman exams deal with model aircraft or drone regs. Don't see how pilot certification gets you off the hook for that.

Furthermore, my guess is that those with valid FAA pilot certificates would suffer the greatest for not complying with any directive that mandates model airplane registration. Certificate suspension, revocation, fines, etc. Ignorance of the law is never a valid excuse with the FAA. If it becomes clear that CL does not qualify for an exemption, I would not be surprised to see the FAA conducting spot checks at our NATS events this July.

Offline Fredvon4

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1634
  • Central Texas
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #105 on: April 26, 2018, 02:34:02 PM »
I think the most dastardly and chilling fact that is ANY FEDERAL conviction is a Felony by definition
 And under Federal Law any Felony conviction significantly limits your many other Constitutional rights...voting, guns...loss with OUT compensation of your property

Around here, in Rural Lampasas, I frequently have to caution many neighbors to NOT Shoot Drones out of the sky with a shot gun.....   yes there me be a few that are true toys from Wally World...but too many these days have legitimate use and legal to use and legal to over fly your property

Shooting a legitimate Sheriffs department, or Realtor, or Power company, or Wildlife survey,  drone....approaching $30,000 cost is going to invoke a investigation, and you Might be criminally or civilly liable

 I see the drone issue and the mandate of the DOT and FAA in two ways.....maybe three

There is a great need for them of many commercial and other legit uses
They are a cool toy....no doubt I own 2 of the lesser cost versions...no FPV....I have a lot of fun aggravating my dog with them

 I personally agree with congress mandating DOT/FAA "do Something" because of the potential for great harm

They have a great potential to do very bad harm from an ass hole, nut case, or terrorist POV

but we all must be mindful of the ideas Brett and I are stating... with this type Un elected (entity) rule making we are powerless to much more than try to comply and stay out of trouble...trouble we as individuals can not afford..... I have a second amendment issue and my Lawyer is $750 an hour....and I am going to loose

Ask your insurance agent if you are covered, ask the AMA if they will defend you...the answer in both cases is NO for any FEDERAL CRIME YOU conduct



"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Online Randy Cuberly

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3631
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #106 on: April 27, 2018, 01:45:36 AM »
I think the most dastardly and chilling fact that is ANY FEDERAL conviction is a Felony by definition
 And under Federal Law any Felony conviction significantly limits your many other Constitutional rights...voting, guns...loss with OUT compensation of your property

Around here, in Rural Lampasas, I frequently have to caution many neighbors to NOT Shoot Drones out of the sky with a shot gun.....   yes there me be a few that are true toys from Wally World...but too many these days have legitimate use and legal to use and legal to over fly your property

Shooting a legitimate Sheriffs department, or Realtor, or Power company, or Wildlife survey,  drone....approaching $30,000 cost is going to invoke a investigation, and you Might be criminally or civilly liable

 I see the drone issue and the mandate of the DOT and FAA in two ways.....maybe three

There is a great need for them of many commercial and other legit uses
They are a cool toy....no doubt I own 2 of the lesser cost versions...no FPV....I have a lot of fun aggravating my dog with them

 I personally agree with congress mandating DOT/FAA "do Something" because of the potential for great harm

They have a great potential to do very bad harm from an ass hole, nut case, or terrorist POV

but we all must be mindful of the ideas Brett and I are stating... with this type Un elected (entity) rule making we are powerless to much more than try to comply and stay out of trouble...trouble we as individuals can not afford..... I have a second amendment issue and my Lawyer is $750 an hour....and I am going to loose

Ask your insurance agent if you are covered, ask the AMA if they will defend you...the answer in both cases is NO for any FEDERAL CRIME YOU conduct

So you're saying give up and conform to their stupidity and jack booted nonsense!  They'll have to shoot me first.
I'm too old and tired to play their game!  I can, if necessary, at least make them sorry!

There is a way to stop this kind of nonsense...Join the effort for the Convention of States and let's get rid of this crap and a lot of the politicians that tolerate and proliferate it.  Take back the US Constitution!

Support President Trump's mandate to "Kill the Deep State"!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Fredvon4

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1634
  • Central Texas
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #107 on: April 27, 2018, 09:01:40 AM »
Randy I belong to NOW a long list of Rights groups and could not agree with you more....well said sir
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline jim ballard

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 98
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #108 on: April 27, 2018, 12:13:04 PM »
I think( i know it is some thing I seldom do) I would ask them what is a drone?   hen let them explain how a control line airplane can be considered a drone.   Also with my planes I would ask if who ever it is that I'm fouling up their theater size TV or too noising let them check my planes again.  Only time I have been asked to depart  school parking lot was many years ago when testing a new Rat Racer.   The people on the other side of the road booed the officer as he left.  City ordinance prohibits models flying on school properties. HB~>

I've done just that Doc. We'll see what they say. Probably just another generic blanket answer....
Tempting fate and gravity one more time....

Jim Ballard
Blackwell, TX
AMA 62811

Online Ken Culbertson

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 882
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #109 on: April 27, 2018, 12:16:48 PM »
So you're saying give up and conform to their stupidity and jack booted nonsense!  They'll have to shoot me first.
I'm too old and tired to play their game!  I can, if necessary, at least make them sorry!

There is a way to stop this kind of nonsense...Join the effort for the Convention of States and let's get rid of this crap and a lot of the politicians that tolerate and proliferate it.  Take back the US Constitution!

Support President Trump's mandate to "Kill the Deep State"!

Randy Cuberly

Right on - we MAY fact not be able to do anything about it but if we don't try then we KNOW we will not be able to do anything about it!

One post said that they would not raid the NATS.  Ever belong to a HOA?  Give a pinhead a stupid regulation and they will do back flips to show you who is in charge.  My guess is that the AMA wouldn't have the guts to hold it in direct defiance of the regulations.  I wrote my congressman and I am going to try and do the same at the FAA explaining how this stupid approach would make it a federal crime for a 10 year old to throw a paper airplane.
AMA 15382

If it is not broke, don't fix it.

Offline Vincent Judd

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 225
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #110 on: April 27, 2018, 02:52:26 PM »
Just grabbed this off of the AMA website.  I think it's today's news, but please forgive me if it's not.  I don't see a date on this piece of information.

Sounds like things are heading in the right direction for us, but you know how quickly that could change.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutama/writecongress.aspx

Offline Fred Underwood

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 437
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #111 on: April 27, 2018, 03:39:51 PM »
Fred
352575

Online Ken Culbertson

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 882
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #112 on: April 27, 2018, 03:43:18 PM »
Just grabbed this off of the AMA website.  I think it's today's news, but please forgive me if it's not.  I don't see a date on this piece of information.

Sounds like things are heading in the right direction for us, but you know how quickly that could change.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutama/writecongress.aspx

Great news.  I just wish they would have told us what the "things that concerned them" were.  Sort of difficult to call your Senator and say "We don't like something in this bill - we don't know what it is but please fix it"
AMA 15382

If it is not broke, don't fix it.

Offline Vincent Judd

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 225
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #113 on: April 27, 2018, 03:45:27 PM »
Great news.  I just wish they would have told us what the "things that concerned them" were.  Sort of difficult to call your Senator and say "We don't like something in this bill - we don't know what it is but please fix it"

So true.  Geez, if you want us to fight for something, give us some damn details.  Idiots.

Online Randy Cuberly

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3631
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #114 on: April 27, 2018, 04:05:25 PM »
Hmmmmmm...Sounds like they know that it isn't going to fly and just want to appease the masses with more meaningless tripe!  Seems like they do a lot of that lately.

The Senate still has to do their part and lately that bunch of Fat Axx do nothing idiots haven't done a thing except count their Graft money!

Besides we all know by now that the FAA and other non-elected organizations don't pay any attention to what Congress does!

They'll just come up with some more Lawer-ese jargon that says what they want in a different way and continue with their scheme to do whatever they want!

Ignore the morons.

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Matt Spencer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 3212
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #115 on: April 27, 2018, 07:45:52 PM »
I agree completely, it may come to that. I'm sure you are familiar with Thoreau's "On the duty of civil disobedience"...

Get Bob Hunt to Run for PRESIDENT .  S?P

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 9199
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #116 on: April 27, 2018, 07:53:55 PM »
Get Bob Hunt to Run for PRESIDENT .  S?P

  I think he's smart enough to know better.

    Brett

Online Randy Cuberly

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3631
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #117 on: April 27, 2018, 11:44:03 PM »
  I think he's smart enough to know better.

    Brett

Absolutely.  One of the problems with positions in places like the AMA is that most of the "Good" guys are simply not interested in beating their head against such an organization!  They're smart enough to realize that such an organization is too far gone into politics to be worth the battle.

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Serge_Krauss

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1140
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #118 on: April 28, 2018, 12:01:55 AM »
I'm kinda "hoping against hope" that this initially informative thread won't sink the rest of the way into partisan politics. I've communicated the factual concerns to my club via our business meeting and newsletter, including a link to this thread.
SK

Online Gary Dowler

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 533
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #119 on: April 28, 2018, 12:28:49 AM »
I'm kinda "hoping against hope" that this initially informative thread won't sink the rest of the way into partisan politics. I've communicated the factual concerns to my club via our business meeting and newsletter, including a link to this thread.
SK
As unpleasant as aspects of the conversation may be, partisan politics must occasionally be a part of such discussions as they are often the very root of the problem.   The only way change will ever be affected is to bring such things to the fore front, lest we collectively submerge our craniums beneath the finely graduated silica and just hope for the best.

Gary
Profanity is the crutch of the illiterate mind

Offline Andre Ming

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 544
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #120 on: April 28, 2018, 07:03:19 AM »
"As unpleasant as aspects of the conversation may be, partisan politics must occasionally be a part of such discussions as they are often the very root of the problem."

Exactly! Unaccountable "Agencies", "Departments Of", etc, etc, is WHY we're in some of the messes we're in as a Nation. This topic we're discussing would not be a topic IF the FAA hadn't over-reached into a HOBBY of all things.
AMA 408

Offline Bob Hunt

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1745
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #121 on: April 28, 2018, 07:26:12 AM »
Get Bob Hunt to Run for PRESIDENT .  S?P

Okay, Matt, this is an official question (and I think many here really want to know the answer to this...). Are you high?  ;D

Bob Hunt

Offline Perry Rose

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 841
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #122 on: April 28, 2018, 08:29:58 AM »
A great campaign button, "I'm high on Hunt". Right up there with "I like Ike".
I wouldn't take her to a dog fight even if she had a chance to win.
The worst part of growing old is remembering when you were young.

Offline Bob Hunt

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1745
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #123 on: April 28, 2018, 09:04:19 AM »
Hi Perry:

Remember, this is Model Airplanes, not Model Railroading. I decline the nomination well in advance. Or, "Hell no, Hunt won't go..."

Bob Hunt  >:D

Online Gary Dowler

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 533
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #124 on: April 28, 2018, 09:08:13 AM »
Okay, Matt, this is an official question (and I think many here really want to know the answer to this...). Are you high?  ;D

Bob Hunt
You know, that's getting all legal now in a lot of places........Leads one to wonder....LOL
Profanity is the crutch of the illiterate mind

Online Gary Dowler

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 533
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #125 on: April 28, 2018, 09:09:21 AM »
Hi Perry:

Remember, this is Model Airplanes, not Model Railroading. I decline the nomination well in advance. Or, "Hell no, Hunt won't go..."

Bob Hunt  >:D
Hey now, don't be all picking on model railroads, some of us are kind of bi that way.....LOL!!
Profanity is the crutch of the illiterate mind

Offline Fredvon4

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1634
  • Central Texas
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #126 on: April 28, 2018, 10:54:38 AM »
LGBTMRR?    Grin
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Rene Whitaker

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #127 on: April 28, 2018, 04:58:49 PM »
"As unpleasant as aspects of the conversation may be, partisan politics must occasionally be a part of such discussions as they are often the very root of the problem."

Exactly! Unaccountable "Agencies", "Departments Of", etc, etc, is WHY we're in some of the messes we're in as a Nation. This topic we're discussing would not be a topic IF the FAA hadn't over-reached into a HOBBY of all things.

In America we call it lobbying. Everywhere else it’s called bribery and corruption.

Online Randy Cuberly

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3631
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #128 on: April 28, 2018, 06:03:40 PM »
In America we call it lobbying. Everywhere else it’s called bribery and corruption.

Real honest lobbying is a perfectly legitimate tool within Government!  It provides important information to government that it could not otherwise obtain.

The corruption comes in when unscrupulous politicians accept money or favors for that information.  That really isn't the fault of the lobbyists it's the fault of the crooked politicians we elect!

I'm sure you've heard the phrase "Just say NO".  I'm sure there are some politicians who do just that.  However I'm just as sure that a lot of them don't use the NO word very much unless they simply want more!

We as a free people have the responsibility to vet the representatives we vote for in our Government.  I'm terribly afraid we don't do a very good job of that. 

It seems that we often are asked to vote simply for the lesser of two evils, or not vote at all which may even be worse!

Folks it's time to accept our responsibility as free citizens and CLEAN HOUSE and SENATE!

Just not sure how to go about that!

Maybe the "Convention of States" is the answer to that.  At least maybe it gives some hope short of revolution.

As for "Partisan Politics" it shouldn't have to be a choice between "Freedom or Socialism" and "Total Government Control or Anarchy"!  The words Democracy and Republic have a tremendous lot in common.  Why are the parties so far apart?
Both seem to have only their own interests at heart!  Not the Peoples!  Therein lies the problem in my honest (Not Humble) opinion!  Sometimes it seem to be a question of which side has the bigger Crooks!

Sometimes it seems that the "Rule of law" doesn't have much meaning anymore!

Pretty Depressing!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline jim ballard

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 98
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #129 on: April 29, 2018, 12:46:34 PM »
My second round of questions to the FAA got a little quicker and more detailed response. Here was my questions:

Then I have a couple of follow-up questions. (1) What is a drone? (2) How is my control line (tethered) model aircraft considered a drone? The maximum distance that my aircraft can be from me is 70 feet which is also the maximum altitude it can reach. It is not remote controlled, but is connected to me so that I have mechanical control of the aircraft at all times. it does not operate autonomously. I feel that the answer to my original question was just a blanket answer and did not really answer my specific question. Your answer to my original question didn't even include minimum and maximum weights for drones. No disrespect meant, but I would like a more detailed answer to the above two questions.

Thank you for your time


And the answer from the FAA:

Jim,

Thank you for contacting the FAA's Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) Support Center.

Control line and free flight models are exempted from registration.  They do not have a control station or control link. R/C models are considered drones and subject to registration. Models flown inside do not enter the airspace and those under .55 pound ones are not considered a hazard.

A radio controlled aircraft operating on a tether is, however, considered a drone and may require registration.

Regards,

Paul


Tempting fate and gravity one more time....

Jim Ballard
Blackwell, TX
AMA 62811

Online Randy Cuberly

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3631
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #130 on: April 29, 2018, 01:14:21 PM »
So....can we actually take "Paul's" answer as fact or is there more to come?

Can we get an official Document from the FAA stating the above facts!

Or is this just one guy's opinion to be changed by others at any time?

In other words "We've heard this before, but then we heard the CL airplanes need to be registered also!"

Thanks for your efforts they are definitely appreciated, but obviously they're just playing word games.  I'm going to just continue to ignore them!   y1  Z@@ZZZ

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Online Tony Drago

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 338
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #131 on: April 29, 2018, 01:29:06 PM »
"A radio controlled aircraft operating on a tether is, however, considered a drone and may require registration."
 So if you are flying C/L Scale and in some case's Carrier/Stunt (Z-Tron or some other battery powered device). Does that mean you still can get fined. 
Sounds like a loop hole for the FAA.
 

Online Randy Cuberly

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3631
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #132 on: April 29, 2018, 01:36:57 PM »
"A radio controlled aircraft operating on a tether is, however, considered a drone and may require registration."
 So if you are flying C/L Scale and in some case's Carrier/Stunt (Z-Tron or some other battery powered device). Does that mean you still can get fined. 
Sounds like a loop hole for the FAA.

Uhhhhhh....Ya think?   LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

More double talk!  Don't forget, these guys are actually POLITICIANS at heart!  And to make that point remember that most of them are lawyers ....uhhh  or is that liayers.

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2972
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #133 on: April 29, 2018, 01:58:09 PM »
My second round of questions to the FAA got a little quicker and more detailed response. Here was my questions:

Then I have a couple of follow-up questions. (1) What is a drone? (2) How is my control line (tethered) model aircraft considered a drone? The maximum distance that my aircraft can be from me is 70 feet which is also the maximum altitude it can reach. It is not remote controlled, but is connected to me so that I have mechanical control of the aircraft at all times. it does not operate autonomously. I feel that the answer to my original question was just a blanket answer and did not really answer my specific question. Your answer to my original question didn't even include minimum and maximum weights for drones. No disrespect meant, but I would like a more detailed answer to the above two questions.

Thank you for your time


And the answer from the FAA:

Jim,

Thank you for contacting the FAA's Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) Support Center.

Control line and free flight models are exempted from registration.  They do not have a control station or control link. R/C models are considered drones and subject to registration. Models flown inside do not enter the airspace and those under .55 pound ones are not considered a hazard.

A radio controlled aircraft operating on a tether is, however, considered a drone and may require registration.

Regards,

Paul


    Then the next round of questions should be meant to refine his last answer. A control line model with a remote throttle is not a radio controlled aircraft. It is still guided by the lines in the radius of the lines, but only the throttle is controlled. It's obvious from these answers that "Paul" is giving that he is completely unaware of the entire scope of model aviation. He also uses the word "may" when it comes to registering it., so that tells me he doesn't know.  And the previous question about model rockets is an interesting one also. An unguided model rocket can be a far more lethal weapon than a quad copter.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline jim ballard

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 98
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #134 on: April 29, 2018, 10:27:52 PM »
I don't know about you guys but I'm going to take it at face value. I doubt very much that "Paul" is a politician, but rather a working stiff like the rest of us with a job that requires him to answer questions like this while referring to the regulations. He obviously doesn't have an intimate knowledge of model aviation but I wouldn't expect him to. If anybody has additional questions, I would encourage you to ask them. Here is the e-mail address....  UASHelp@faa.gov
Tempting fate and gravity one more time....

Jim Ballard
Blackwell, TX
AMA 62811

Online Gary Dowler

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 533
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #135 on: April 29, 2018, 11:13:05 PM »
Uhhhhhh....Ya think?   LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

More double talk!  Don't forget, these guys are actually POLITICIANS at heart!  And to make that point remember that most of them are lawyers ....uhhh  or is that liayers.

Randy Cuberly
I'm with Randy. Live your life, enjoy your hobby, harm no one and forget the government and its bureaucratic thugs exist. 
Profanity is the crutch of the illiterate mind

Offline Jim Kraft

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2942
  • AMA78415
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #136 on: April 30, 2018, 02:34:34 PM »
The definition of partisan politics. That is when the conservatives will not go along with the liberals. It does not apply the other way. It is only used when they need it to pass some stupid bill.

As long as we have two parties there will always be partisan politics. Never did like that phrase we will just agree to disagree.

I always liked our president who said, " Hi, I  am from the government and here to help you. Grab your wallet and run".
Jim Kraft

Online Randy Cuberly

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3631
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #137 on: April 30, 2018, 08:45:49 PM »
I don't know about you guys but I'm going to take it at face value. I doubt very much that "Paul" is a politician, but rather a working stiff like the rest of us with a job that requires him to answer questions like this while referring to the regulations. He obviously doesn't have an intimate knowledge of model aviation but I wouldn't expect him to. If anybody has additional questions, I would encourage you to ask them. Here is the e-mail address....  UASHelp@faa.gov

I also doubt that "Paul" is actually a politician.  However you can bet he works for one or more!  The Regulations he uses to answer his questions are approved by politicians and lawyers and that means that they are as "thin" and potentially interpretable as desired and possible!
Anyone who works for and around politicians will begin to think just like them or they won't keep their jobs!

Rule one, "Never give a complete answer to any question". 

Rule 2, See rule 1.

If you think this is a joke then you haven't been paying attention for the past 60 years or so!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 9199
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #138 on: April 30, 2018, 10:12:14 PM »
I'm kinda "hoping against hope" that this initially informative thread won't sink the rest of the way into partisan politics.

   It hasn't, and I think you will find both the Red and Blue on the same page when it regards the current situation. But this admittedly trivial example is such a perfect, hallmark, example of how a bureaucracy can and would casually destroy something, almost incidentally, while attempting to make themselves look slightly better and accomplishing nothing, it would be entirely remiss not to point it out. 

     The current situation - endless regulation by non-representive and essentially unaccountable self-promoted masterminds attempting to control the lives of the individual - is fundamentally unAmerican. It is Plato's monstrous and evil Republic - not the republic envisioned by the founding fathers. It is exactly and precisely what the country was formed to escape and prevent, and millions have fought and died to prevent.

  For far too long, collective action has been prioritized over the liberty of the individual. Collective action is sometimes necessary, and those situations are well-defined by the constitution. Spewing out endless regulation on every topic from model airplane laws to food labelling to defining farm ditches as "navigable waterways (or a million other examples) IS NOT mentioned, is not necessary and has the effect of inhibiting personal liberty. Neither is the elected representatives creating buffer agencies to generate these regulations in order to insulate themselves from backlash.

   The world will not end if model airplanes become illegal tomorrow, but multiply the same problem by many millions of other "trivial" activities and practices casually steamrolled by the same system, and it become an OCEAN of evil and mandatory to fight by all legal means necessary.

   We have a system to right such conditions, it was exercised on Nov 8, 2016. Maybe we didn't get the ideal man for the job, but at least we got one willing to take up the issue.

   Brett

Offline Bobs your Uncle

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 360
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #139 on: April 30, 2018, 10:37:14 PM »
“Spewing out endless regulation on every topic from model airplane laws to food labelling”

Personal choice (Liberty) is only possible with honest information placed in front of the “chooser”. Labeling allows choice by providing such information, without it you have no idea what the food processor/ manufacturer puts in your food (and without labels there is no traceability, if such food proves to be a health hazard). I like to know if I am electing (or not) to eat a pesticide based genetically modified food, or if the food has a ton of sodium or sugar. Thanks, but I value accurate food labeling.



« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 10:55:08 PM by Bobs your Uncle »

Offline Bill Heher

  • Fix-it
  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 935
  • I may not always BOM- but I do the re-builds!
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #140 on: April 30, 2018, 11:10:51 PM »
So C/L are SUAV in the eyes of the people who answered the question, then they direct you to a site that has not 1 mention of the term Control Line flying.  I bet dollars to donuts they have never seen a CL model in flight.

I guess it is time to flood the local FISDO with complaints of unregistered SUAV every time we spot a balloon tethered to a car lot or discount store, kids flying kites, Tethered balloon rides, and every time you see a drone anywhere but at an approved site.

What is the definition of " Sustained flight in the atmosphere", a kite can fly 500+ feet high, stay up as long as the wind blows and has no power supply for a transponder, lights, and are invisible on radar.

Aw hell, I'm getting old- maybe I can be a flagrant violator, get arrested and sentenced , and demand they provide me building supplies and books / magazines about airplanes to go with the free medical/dental.
Bill Heher
Central Florida and across the USA!
If it's broke Fix-it
If it ain't broke- let me see it for a minute
AMA 264898- since 1988!

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 9199
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #141 on: April 30, 2018, 11:20:04 PM »
“Spewing out endless regulation on every topic from model airplane laws to food labelling”

Personal choice (Liberty) is only possible with honest information placed in front of the “chooser”. Labeling allows choice by providing such information, without it you have no idea what the food processor/ manufacturer puts in your food (and without labels there is no traceability, if such food proves to be a health hazard). I like to know if I am electing (or not) to eat a pesticide based genetically modified food, or if the food has a ton of sodium or sugar. Thanks, but I value accurate food labeling.

   So do I. But the federal government has *no defined role* in such an activity. They aren't there to referee your life.

      Brett

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 9199
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #142 on: April 30, 2018, 11:24:46 PM »

Jim,

Thank you for contacting the FAA's Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) Support Center.

Control line and free flight models are exempted from registration.  They do not have a control station or control link. R/C models are considered drones and subject to registration. Models flown inside do not enter the airspace and those under .55 pound ones are not considered a hazard.

A radio controlled aircraft operating on a tether is, however, considered a drone and may require registration.

   That seems perfectly sensible to me and that is about what I would hope for. RC (for the most part) *should* be regulated and I am amazed that they have managed to go scot-free for decades while the much safer model rocketry is so tightly controlled.

    When they say "tether" they mean a wired "RC" system that replaces the radio link with a hard wire, not a CL model with radio shutoff or retracts.

    Brett

Online Brent Williams

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 662
  • Making America Fly Stunt Again!
    • Fancher Handles - Presented by Brent Williams
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #143 on: May 01, 2018, 12:50:36 AM »
My second round of questions to the FAA got a little quicker and more detailed response.

Thank you for contacting the FAA's Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) Support Center.

Control line and free flight models are exempted from registration.  They do not have a control station or control link. R/C models are considered drones and subject to registration. Models flown inside do not enter the airspace and those under .55 pound ones are not considered a hazard.

A radio controlled aircraft operating on a tether is, however, considered a drone and may require registration.

Regards,

Paul


Now, we might have some tentative trust if the quoted response or a similar statement can be visibly posted and be made easy to find on an official AMA / FAA website.  Hate to see the control line hobby needlessly hassled by some powered up law enforcement officer or other fun-police type bureaucrats.
Laser-cut, "Ted Fancher Precision-Pro" Hard Point Handle Kits are available again.  PM for info.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/brent-williams'-fancher-handles-and-cl-parts/ted-fancher's-precision-pro-handle-kit-by-brent-williams-information/

Offline Bobs your Uncle

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 360
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #144 on: May 01, 2018, 10:32:53 AM »
“referee your life”

What on earth does that mean?

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 9199
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #145 on: May 01, 2018, 08:53:10 PM »
“referee your life”

What on earth does that mean?

  It means that the government is not there to be the arbiter of the interactions you have with other people or corporations. You don't go running off to daddy to tell on someone for, say, not labelling their food or not labelling it correctly.

   The Federal government exists to support 3 areas where collective action is required for safety and liberty - external defense, control of interstate crime, and ensuring fair interstate competition. Just about anything else is supposed to be done by the state or local government, or not at all. That is it, nothing more. That is more-or-less how it worked from 1789 (when the Bill of Rights was adopted) until the New Deal (1933). A few modifications (like the postal service) were made, but not much else.

    The New Deal kicked off the "federal government is your mommy and daddy" theory adopted by other countries for years, and reaching it's zenith (so far...) in the sickening Obama years, where the solution to every problem was more cradle-to-grave government regulation. That's what he meant by "fundamentally transform".

   The USA was formed with the notions of "natural law" and the supremacy of the *individual*. The goal of government is to protect *individual personal liberty*. The constitution and bill of right was drafted in order to *limit the power of the government* to impose itself on individual personal liberty, and the Bill of Rights was intended  to directly address some of the limits of government.

    This is *fundamentally different* than all forms of government that preceded it, on purpose, and quite consciously so.

    Brett
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 09:13:23 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline jim ballard

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 98
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #146 on: May 01, 2018, 09:45:34 PM »
I also doubt that "Paul" is actually a politician.  However you can bet he works for one or more!  The Regulations he uses to answer his questions are approved by politicians and lawyers and that means that they are as "thin" and potentially interpretable as desired and possible!
Anyone who works for and around politicians will begin to think just like them or they won't keep their jobs!

Rule one, "Never give a complete answer to any question". 

Rule 2, See rule 1.

If you think this is a joke then you haven't been paying attention for the past 60 years or so!

Randy Cuberly

Randy, I don't disagree with you and I don't think this is a joke. All I was trying to do is get some answers from the organization that has created the regulations that we're faced with, and maybe provide some information for this topic. I have written my representatives and senators since this regulation became known to me. Do I really think it will do any good? Probably not.....but I've done what I could. I assure you I've been paying attention!
Tempting fate and gravity one more time....

Jim Ballard
Blackwell, TX
AMA 62811

Offline Steve Helmick

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 8423
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #147 on: May 01, 2018, 10:17:19 PM »
So C/L are SUAVE in the eyes of the people who answered the question, then they direct you to a site that has not 1 mention of the term Control Line flying.  I bet dollars to donuts they have never seen a CL model in flight.


Fixed it for ya, Bill. Maybe we should go fly a demo in DC?  :)  Steve
In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.

In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General Mattis.

Offline Jim Svitko

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 293
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #148 on: May 02, 2018, 06:57:09 AM »
Regarding the government being "your life's referee":

Some of you, especially Texans or those in the oil industry, might remember Eddie Chiles, the man who, I believe, started the Western company.  He was also owner of the Texas Rangers for a while.

When I moved to Fort Worth in '79, Eddie Chiles was making pitches for certain politicians.  During one radio ad, he said "There are three things I want the government to do.  Defend our shores, deliver the mail, and leave me alone."

Offline Steve Thompson

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 121
Re: Here we go again
« Reply #149 on: May 02, 2018, 12:05:05 PM »
There was an article in Flying Models and also reprinted in Stunt News about some self professed yokels flying a control line plane in the park right across the street and visible from the White House during Bill Clinton's reign.  They were asked to leave.

So, flying for politicians has been done, just not in a productive way.


Tags: