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Author Topic: Here's a tough one...  (Read 2338 times)

Offline ash

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Here's a tough one...
« on: January 10, 2008, 05:06:23 AM »
I have a pair of FP25s stashed away for a special project. Special enough to have some specific criteria, none of which are tough to acheive alone, but real tough to get them all checked off...

~ Suitable for two FP25s
~ Scale or Semi-Scale
~ Profile fuselage
~ Stuntable
~ Classic legal

Now, 4 out of 5 isn't hard to get, but can anyone suggest a design that checks all those boxes?
How about 4 from 5?
Adrian Hamilton - Auckland, NZ.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Here's a tough one...
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2008, 06:28:55 AM »
The Lew McFarland P-38 comes close.

You either have to step up to full-body, or build it as a profile. 

While the forum may be a tough jury, if you show up with the model and an entry fee, you'll be allowed to fly it.
Paul Smith

Online Joe Gilbert

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Re: Here's a tough one...
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2008, 07:03:00 AM »
F5F Skyrocket by Jack Sheeks? Not a profile, but that or a Twin Flite Streek.
Joe Gilbert

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Here's a tough one...
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2008, 07:50:45 AM »
The Twin Flite Streak, a Twin Ringmaster (It's on the Custom plans!!) and something that Guillows put out way back in the day, but it is a little small for the 25FPs I think.

I have been looking for Profiles that are Classic legal for years, there are VERY few.  And, none are semi scale twins.  In fact, there are VERY few profile twin stunters, period, much less semi scale ones.  :'(

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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Here's a tough one...
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2008, 10:51:45 AM »
4 from 5 is Don Hutchinson's P-38 Lightning, would be a great choice.
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Here's a tough one...
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2008, 10:57:26 AM »
4 from 5 is Don Hutchinson's P-38 Lightning, would be a great choice.

Don's P-38 would be outstanding!  It would be even nicer if it were Classic Legal.
Big Bear <><

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Offline Phil Coopy

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Re: Here's a tough one...
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2008, 02:09:04 PM »
How's about a profile C-47/DC3...very recognizable profile...nacelles(sp?) stick out far enough to fit a side mounted engine I think.

Phil

Offline Jim Kraft

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Re: Here's a tough one...
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2008, 03:34:52 PM »
Back in the march 1968 Flying Models, there is a nice profile F7F Tigercat twin designed by Bob Adair. Really nice looking ship, but might be a little small for two FP 25's. as he used two Fox 15's in the original. Sometimes it would be really nice to be able to scale up or down like the SAM guys do. Probably open up a whole new can of worms. y1
Jim Kraft

Offline Trostle

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Re: Here's a tough one...
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2008, 05:27:51 PM »
I will try to go through several possibilities that I can find that can satisfy the 5 requirements listed:

1.  Must be able to use the two OS .25 FP engines
2.  Semi-scale
3.  Profile
4.  Stuntable
5.  Classic Legal.

The choices are rather limited some will be performance challenged.  I am listing all of the twin "semi-scale" stunt ships, some have full fuselage, and some are not Classic legal.

Jim Kraft mentioned Bob Adair's F7F Tigercat.  This has been flown at VSC by Jim Hoffman from Phoenix has made a credible showing with it.  He uses two OS .15's.  The use of two .25's would be a bit of overkill and the increased weight of the .25's would not help performance regarding "stuntability", at least in terms of doing a credible pattern.

Claire Sieverling did a provile of the North American A-26 Invader, Model Airplane News, July 62.  Kind of smallish, even for the two Enya .19's he used.  Flew at 85 mph.  Thin wing section of probably less than 15%, no flaps, about a 42" span, fairly high aspect ratio so the area is not that great.  This one would be pattern challenged.

Jack Sheeks did a full bodied version of the Curtis AT-9 Jeep, Flying Models, 1976.  Designed for stunt and two .30's, the OS .25's would work fine, but not Classic legal.

Paul DelGatto did a full fuselage/nacelle version of the B-25 Mitchell, Flying Models, Feb/Mar 63.  This was designed for stunt, thick airfoil, flaps and appropriate moments.    Designed for two .19's, but 25's would not be too far out of the question because this is a "reasonable.  About a 52" wing span and something over 400 sq in.  LeRoy Black from Phoenix  has flown one of these at VSC and it makes a respectable presentation with it.

Jack Sheeks did a version of the deHavilland Mosquito as a semis scale with "full" (albeit slimmend down) fuselage and nacelles.  Used 2 .35's, but the OS .25's would be more than enough power for this.  This one can be built for serious stunt competition, but its published date is August 1981 Flying Models sort of knocks it out of consideration for Classic competition.  An RSM kit is soon to be available if not already released.

Jack Sheeks did the Grumman F5F-1 Skyrocket for stunt, Flying Models, Aug/Sep 63.  Full body fuselage and nacelles, a good sized airplane for stunt, good airfoil and moments.  Had two Fox .35's, but the OS .25 would substitute quite nicely.  I-Beam wing.  This could be one of the better twin semi-scale ships that is classic legal.

Joe DeMarco did a Heinkel He 219 in Flying Models, May 74 for two .15s with a 39" span.  this would be kind of small for the two .25's.  Really thin airfoil, but a really neat looking model.  (Actually, this thing could be flown for Mike Keville's 1/2A profile scale contest with two .061s and would fly just fine for a scale contest.)

Steve Ashby, who is a really good scale builder and has been on our US Scale team a number of times to the World Championships, designed a semi-scale stunt version of the Messerschmitt Bf 110, Model Aviation, June 1980.  Near scale fuselage and nacelles, flaps and a lot of area  Used two OS .25's.

Aeromodeller published two twin profiles in the Dec 72 issue.  One was the D.H. Mosquito and the other was the Me 110.  Kind of small, had flaps, on a fairly thin wing section.  Designed for .15's to 20's.  Probably not Classic legal.

Lew McFarland's P-38 has been mentioned,  American Modeler, Sep/Oct 66.  This is not a profile, but is designed for stunt.  His had two Veco .19's.  56" span, 475 sq in area.  Nice airfoil with flaps.  Flaps are built up as in integral part of the airfoil and are not a sheet added at the rear end of the airfoil as most stunt ships do.  Kept light, this one has a lot of potential for a Classic twin scale stunt ship.

I have some plans for several twin engined scale airplanes from the 1940s that surprisingly have fairly thick and symmetrical or near symmetrical wing sections.  These were designed by Paul Plecan and include the P-38, The F7F Tigercat and the Westland Whirlwind.  They are not profile and build into a decent looking scale airplane.  These are the plans that Bob Whitely used for his P-38 that he flew in OTS at last year's VSC and Chris McMillin used for his Tigercat, also at VSC last year.  These are really a bit small, even for .15's and their wing loadings are a problem.  Both of these models were definitely challenged, even for the OTS pattern.  The Whirlwind would not do much better, but I intend to try one for VSC in 2009.

There may be more semi-scale twins that might be considered for use in the CL stunt circle, but these are the ones I found in my files after a quick look.  I have not intentionally omitted anything from this list.

Keith Trostle

 

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Here's a tough one...
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2008, 07:42:06 AM »
Wow Keith! Very interesting stuff!

Thanks!
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline ash

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Re: Here's a tough one...
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2008, 02:31:07 PM »
Thanks for all the suggestions, guys!

I've examined and rejected a few of them already, but the P-39 looks the most hopeful.
The idea was to have a model that could serve in Profile scale, Classic and as F2B backup. That could just as easily be F4B scale instead of Profile scale, I guess.

The other contender is the older Hobby Helpers He-219 which I have the plan of. If I'm sensible I'll do one proper model for each event, but I do like the idea of flying a huge scale twin in classic stunt!
Adrian Hamilton - Auckland, NZ.

Offline Trostle

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Re: Here's a tough one...
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2008, 03:36:22 PM »


(clip)

I do like the idea of flying a huge scale twin in classic stunt!

Adrian,

If you are really serious about building a "large" scale twin for Classic stunt, then the options narrow down fairly quickly, assuming that it does not necessarily need to be a profile.

The options become Jack Sheeks' Skyrocket from Flying Models, and Lew McFarland's P-38 from American Modeller.  The B-25 by Paul DelGatto  from Flying Models can do the pattern but would not be in the same league as the Skyrocket or the P-38.  The P-38 would perform fairly well, but being close to scale with its relatively high aspect ratio, it will prove to be tricky in the wind and it will be somewhat challenged by its wing loading unless you can find a way to build a twin exceptionally light.  The Sheeks Skyrocket is larger, has a very low aspect ratio and is designed as a stunt ship to look like the Skyrocket more than the P-38 was designed to look like the Lightening to fly like a stunt ship.  This is not intended to be critical of Lew's P-38.  But with its 58 inch span and 475 sq in, it will be heavy with any pair of 25's or larger.  (Actually, two 15's for this would make more sense and would save several ounces in the process while still have plenty of power for a 475 sq in stunt ship.)

If you are looking for a nearly scale ship that can perform a stunt pattern and still fly in Classic, the P-38 would be a good choice.  If you are looking for a Classic stunt ship that can compete in a CL Scale contest, then the Skyrocket would be a good choice.  That B-25 would be a distant third in either case.

One thing to consider, at least in my opinion.  If you are going to the trouble to build a "scale" model of anything, it does not take that much more time or effort to build a full fuselage version rather than a profile version.  In fact, if you go to the trouble to completely enclose the bellcrank, controls and pushrod in the structure, I think it is easier to build up a full fuselage version than it is to do a profile simply because you have more room to put the hardware.  Besides, when you look at the total time required for a full fuselage version of any CL airplane to a "similar" profile design, there is very little differenc in the effort required to finish the airplane.

If the He 219 you are talking about is the Walt Musciano design from the Nov/Dec 64 issue of American Modeler, that is a nice sized model for a twin scale ship with a span of 60 inches.  The plans show the power is a pair of Fox 59's but also show that .35's could be used.  Actually, a pair of OS FP .25's would handle this airplane quite nicely.  Engine nacelles are about 5 inches in diameter.  But this design, as shown on the plans would not quite be suitable to try to get through any stunt pattern.  It might be able to do some form of a 90 or 120 degree loop and a wing over that does not press to the 90 degree elevation.  It would be a handfull to attempt even those maneuvers.  Still, this would be a neat and impressive model.

Why not just build a bunch of different models.  So many really neat airplanes.  So many ideas.  So little time.

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Here's a tough one...
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2008, 03:46:34 PM »
Hi Keith,

I was really hard pressed to come up with twins to meet Ash's criteria.  A semi-scale twin profile that is classic legal......... not much choice there at all. However, the full fuselage does open it up a touch.

I am more inclined to build a twin stunter now that starters are allowed and the  5 points for a 1 min. take off are no longer around.  I am sure that after a while the starting procedure would be easily enough worked out, but in the beginning I think my nerves, anxiety level, and all, would make it quite interesting! y1  LL~ LL~

I still have that Cosmic Wind/Little Toni/Eagle project mind, but I have not been able to do anything lately.
Big Bear <><

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Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: Here's a tough one...
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2008, 01:14:13 AM »
Ash

the plans mentioned above -  for the B25, the F5f and the p-38s I have - so can print copies for you.

the B25 is the same one I am building - I just scaled it up somewhat
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Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Here's a tough one...
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2008, 08:35:22 AM »
Again, Don's P-38 is close to scale, and will stunt very well.

PS:
Keith is our resident  an encyclopedia.
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Here's a tough one...
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2008, 09:22:07 AM »
Again, Don's P-38 is close to scale, and will stunt very well.

PS:
Keith is our resident  an encyclopedia.

I would HIGHLY recommend Don Hutcherson's P-38 as long as you are not caught up in it being Classic legal.  As Tom N. said, it is very close to scale and is a full blown stunt ship.  A tough build in that it is intricate in some areas, but well worth it, I believe!  Don does not release a plan that does not fly great!

I have plans for all but the Texan in his profile series.  I hope to build the Dauntless first!
Big Bear <><

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Offline ash

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Re: Here's a tough one...
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2008, 03:55:24 PM »
We have profile scale at the Nats here and classic stunt, so those are the reasons for those criteria. As long as I make them with removable wings I probably should just make multiple models rather than one multiple-use model.

The most sensible and appealing option would be
Classic: Rabe Bearcat 3
Profile scale: Profilized He-219 (with modifications to airfoil etc to get in the semi-stunt scale ballpark)

Or even better, stick with my Sea Fury for Profle Scale, Typhoon for F4B, Bearcat for Classic and build a full fuse He-219 just for kicks! Time for a bigger house and car...
Adrian Hamilton - Auckland, NZ.

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Here's a tough one...
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2008, 08:56:11 PM »
C'mon Keith, I already can't get everything built that I want to without you throwing out more bait!!!  #^ #^ #^

Seriously though, thanks for the invaluable information. y1
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

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