the right fuel, the right engine and Spectra lines

[Ara Dedekian]

        I chose to start this topic here in the Open Forum rather than join the Spectra Lines discussion in the Rules section because it goes beyond rule change considerations.

        After 60+ years of flying C/L (and pretty near every other form of aeromodelling) I'm finally closing in on flying the entire pattern. Just the hourglass and the cloverleaf left and I'm ready to enter a contest in the spring.

       This all came about basically by:
             1. Upping the lube content of the fuel (suggested countless times on this forum). It stopped my engines, mostly vintage Fox and Enya 29's and 35's, from sagging and quitting and have given me very reliable runs.
             2. Unloading the engines by using 9/4 and 9/5 props (suggested countless times on this forum). They're running cool and happy with these props.
             3. Finally having a plane that is capable of flying the pattern (more on that later)
             4. Switching over to Spectra lines.

        The plane, engine, line and handle combo I'm using, with heartfelt apologies to all the Precision Aerobatic masters, designers, thinkers, visionaries, innovators, experimenters, leaders, champions etc. who gratefully share their knowledge and work on this forum, is a 45+ year old Jim Saftig Barnstormer/Fox 35/Sullivan handle converted to hard point and Spectra lines.

        It's the Spectra lines which brought the whole thing together in that they've given me the confidence to attempt the maneuvers. With the reduced weight of the lines the planes, trimmed properly, fly themselves out of trouble when the lines go slack and seem to be able to stay overhead without any effort. Another beginner stunt pilot and I tried a comparison between steel and Spectra lines on Phil C's foam Teosawki/OS 46 and Brodaks electric P-40. We found no difference in the control response or 'feel' of the handle and, again, encouraged us to pursue learning the pattern knowing it was doable.

        So to me, using Spectra lines isn't strictly a matter of engineering data. Keith mentoned in the rules section he didn't see how they would contribute to stunt. Getting a couple of flyers enthused enough to want to enter a contest is a pretty good contribution. And, they're a new innovation to C/L.


Ara

[Jim Svitko]

Ara, your experience with Spectra proves that it can improve our hobby.  You do not have to be a Nats competitor to take advantage of technological advances to increase the enjoyment of our hobby.

Not everyone will find Spectra lines to be an improvement.  Some are quite satisfied with steel lines and see no reason to change.  I agree with that.  If a formula is working why change it.  But for many others, we see it differently.

The way I look at it, Spectra fiber is no different than anything else that technology has made available to us to make our activity easier and more enjoyable.  Let's take advantage of it while we can. 

[john e. holliday]

You've almost sold me gentlemen.   Just need to get the lines and get our circle back in shape.

[Steve Helmick]

Did you guys reduce the tipweight for the Spectra lines, or just hook them on and go for it?   Steve  

PS: Lou Andrews designed the Barnstormer.

[Russell Shaffer]

They are great, John.  You can trip over and stomp on them without any kinks at all.  

[Steve Helmick]

They are great, John.  You can trip over and stomp on them without any kinks at all.  

But why would you do that?  Steve

[john e. holliday]

Steve, now you claim you've never got tangled in your own lines?

[Randy Cuberly]

Hmmmmm... OK but everything you've described can be done with .015 steel cable lines also, and has been done that way for over 60 years!

What pray tell has the spectra line provided that isn't provided with the other lines!  Proper airplane trim and engine usage will work with any type of lines.

Sorry but I don't see this as any great technological advancement!  Barnstormers with Fox 35's were doing this over 50 years ago!

You may have discovered another way to do the same thing which is OK but certainly is no great revelation!

Sorry to burst your bubble!   

Randy Cuberly

[John Rist]

The big deal is that Spectra lines are cheep, I can buy them locally, and they work.  Nothing wrong with steel.  Right now I use both.  Just sport flying so I can't tell the difference.  The big problem is they don't come with a reel.  I just use old reals from steel lines that got ruined when I stepped on them. 

[Steve Helmick]

I'm still wondering if the models got re-trimmed for the Spectra lines or left as-is. Where I'm going with this is that the much lighter Spectra lines should need less tipweight and (I'm guessing) LO's guide moved aft due to increased drag. If the tipweight isn't reduced to suit, then of course you'd get a lot of extra sense of security, and the "hinging" in corners thus created might still not be a major concern. This is sometimes referred to as "Texas Trim" here on the West Coast. Not by me, of course.  Steve

[Randy Cuberly]

The big deal is that Spectra lines are cheep, I can buy them locally, and they work.  Nothing wrong with steel.  Right now I use both.  Just sport flying so I can't tell the difference.  The big problem is they don't come with a reel.  I just use old reals from steel lines that got ruined when I stepped on them.  

My point was simply that it was presented as a big revelation when it's not!  Nor is it even likely the best way to go!

See Steve's post above.  I agree with that premise completely!

Randy Cuberly

[Dennis Moritz]

Lighter lines are a plus, if elasticity and strength are comparable. Can make a dramatic difference in models power challenged at points in the pattern.


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[dave siegler]

I will add something positive. 

Good for you, you found a combination that works for you and it got you over thump. That is what is important.

if it worked for you it is the right way to go.

Don't listen to the naysayers. 

I had kind of same issue, I flew alone and could not get the tank, fuel, prop right to make the the whole system work. (Ringmaster fox 35)

its kind of known good combination but I had an issue I could not solve. 

I switched to another engine.  Then I stumbled into what "good" is and was able to go back to the original system and get it working.

So sometimes you have to preturbe the system to find the problem.  The lines and the lighter load prop might have just been enough for your situation.


As far as spectra lines.  If you never used them, you ought to try them, then complain if you want.
They work well, not an outright replacement, but they are cheap, light, available everywhere, easy to terminate and  easy to care for.
They stretch a little,  are a little more draggy and I am not sure when I should replace them like steel lines, but overall I am happy with them

I use both buy and will not purchase any more steel lines.  When my bulk steel lines are used up its all spectra for me. (unless I fly stunt...)

I think it is silly that they are OK for combat, sport and exhibition but the stunt establishment wont allow them.
Worried about your 10000 foot bulk spool investment, or is it to make the stunt event even less accessible?
 
 

[Russell Shaffer]

To answer Steve - I don't retrim anything, just fly and live with the slight difference.  It would be easy enough to keep records and retrim for steel versus Spectra but I just don't bother. 

[Dennis Toth]

Ara,
Sounds like you found what you need to get you into the wonderful world of stunt wars. A couple points, be careful on how much oil you add, as you add oil it can carry out more heat but it also can very slightly add compression. I had this happen when trying to run a full size 10x6 on my Fox 35 with the muffler (the muffler holds heat even when drilled out). The motor would crackle and still ran a little hot. When I dropped to a 9x6 things got much better and when I drop the oil to 25% the crackling stopped and the motor had lots of power for my ship.

On the Spectra lines, I think use them if you like them. Once you get to flying the full pattern and are ready to participate in contests give the conventional cables a try. The cable will have a little less bow in the lines so you may need to move the leadouts forward a bit (move them 1/8" at a time). The steel lines, in the wind, will stretch less and give a little more positive and firmer control.

Glad you are moving into the contest world, lots of fun and good friends and completion for a lifetime.

Best,    DennisT

[john e. holliday]

I'm going to repeat what I've stated before and was told me when I started playing with F2C.  If someone tells you something new to try and you are not improving, try it.   It it works great, if it doesn't store it away in the memory banks as it might work next time.   

Have a great Thanksgiving  and give thanks for what we have.

[phil c]

Dave Siegler "They stretch a little,  are a little more draggy and I am not sure when I should replace them like steel lines, but overall I am happy with them"  Dave, if you attach the lines directly to clips at each end they'll last close to forever.  Stainless steel lines do wear out from fatigue.  Spectra does fatigue too, but it has so many fibers it's less likely to be a catastrophic failure.

[Don Coe]

I fly with Ara and he's the one that got me to try Spectra lines (this of course is 3 weeks after I just purchased both .015 and .018 bulk wire, made a jig and learned to wrap a line with copper ).  I've tried the Spectra, .015, and .018 on both my Brodak P-40 ARF/electric and a Corehouse Gotcha Streak III with an OS LA46.  Both are flown on 68' lines.  I'm a novice pilot and just learning the beginner pattern and just learning how to trim a plane.  Though both planes fly entirely different, the lighter the lines, the better I like them.  My planes seem to "fly themselves" out of problems with the Spectra lines.  It took a little while to get the confidence that it would do that.  I haven't changed outboard wing tip weight but have moved my lead outs back as the lines got lighter.  Haven't noticed any difference in outboard wing but again I'm a novice.  Now that winter is here in the northeast I really won't get much of a chance to fly till spring.  The Spectra lines are cheaper, highly visible (in yellow) which means less stepping on them with no harm done if you do and to me, seem just as safe (with a pull test).

[john e. holliday]

Now is the time to see how they hold up to freezing temps.

[Ted Fancher]

I'm going to repeat what I've stated before and was told me when I started playing with F2C.  If someone tells you something new to try and you are not improving, try it.   It it works great, if it doesn't store it away in the memory banks as it might work next time.   

Have a great Thanksgiving  and give thanks for what we have.

Hmmm.  Doc, isn't that sort of like betting the same way on the instant replay and losing again?

Happy Holiday!

Ted

[Randy Cuberly]

Hmmm.  Doc, isn't that sort of like betting the same way on the instant replay and losing again?

Happy Holiday!

Ted

 

Randy Cuberly

[Steve Helmick]

I hope my posts didn't come off as negative. I was trying to find out if the difference was the lines, or the effect of the lines without re-trimming for the lighter weight and increased drag...and not having much luck with that, except for Russell's admission....which shows a bad attitude...  Please remember that the better your model is trimmed, the longer it will last and the easier it will be to fly well.

Spectra lines would be interesting to me if I was flying sport models over grass, or with engines that are easily replaceable. I'm not keen about trying them out on a $500+ engine system that's difficult to replace.

Admittedly, I'm a bit nervous about the knots. You should be also. I might be more interested if there was a binding method more like used for cables. The thing about knots is that some percentage of them are not good. Depends on how good you are at it, I suppose, but details matter. Sometimes while fishing, I tie one that doesn't seem right, and I've also had to change knots to suit different brands of line of the same basic type, so that's scary for our use.  Steve

[Steve Helmick]

Another thing that concerns me is the basic need to measure the lines as is currently in our rules. How do you measure Spectra line? Digital calipers or a micrometer will be able to squash the line enough that it will mean nothing to measure it, and may very well weaken the line.

I am actually interested in trying Spectra. I spent some time researching suitable brands and sizes at Tackle Warehouse. Looking at the size charts, it appears like the diameter of 40 lb test is big enough to equate to .012" SS cable, 50 lb test is big enough for .015" cables, but 65 lb test isn't big enough to satisfy the .018" cable size requirements. This means 80 lb test, which TW doesn't carry a lot of. That doesn't make it unavailable, of course.

I'd still like to eliminate the knots, and previously we talked about the "No Knot" fishing clip. I'd like to see that device combined with what we typically make with our Derek Moran clip benders. See the picture attached.   Steve

Edit: The one brand they had in 80 lb test still was under .018" diameter. More research may turn up something else. This brand (Yo-Zuri) is bright blue...might show up better on green/yellow/brown grass as a whole. Good brand name, OBTW.

[Jim Svitko]

That No Knot idea looks interesting.  I will have to look into that.

Yes, it is difficult to measure the diameter of Spectra.  The line compresses.  Regarding the Power Pro brand, the box of 50 lb. test line says "50 LB TEST, 12 EQ. DIA".  I don't know if the 12 EQ DIA means 0.012 inch diameter is an average diameter of the Spectra or it is equivalent to 0.012 inch steel line.  The box of 65 lb. test line says "16 EQ. DIA".

[Steve Helmick]

The 12 EQ. Dia. means that it's (roughly) the same diameter as 12 lb test monofilament. It only gives you a very rough idea as to how much of the braid you can put on a given fishing reel. Fishing reel data sheets will give a spec for estimated line capacity, like 8/110 or 17/90. The 110 and 90 is capacity in yards of monofilament. So, the equivalent diameter doesn't mean anything for our use. 

If you look at the various braided lines on www.tacklewarehouse.com, you'll see that most brands show a chart with actual diameters (click on "show more"), which is nice, but we can't really write the rules based on that, can we?

I noticed that Bass Pro Shop sell braided Spectra lines up to 150 lb test in some brands. Please don't buy your line off eBay or Amazon, to avoid the possible purchase of a counterfeit product.    Steve