Author Topic: Hello, New to sport! (Read 8468 times)

bobsdad · « **on:** May 07, 2007, 05:54:06 PM »

Hello! I'm very new to this sport and looks like I'm in the right place to learn a lot.
I am currently building my first plane, Banshee, and probably making all the rookie mistakes but it's fun building. I have an OLD Fox .35 to power her with, assuming I can get it to run smoothly which assumes that I can find the right mixture of fuel.

My first question is: is there a guide to acronyms available? I see terms like 'PA' and more too numerous to remember, much less to mention. I know that all special interests groups have their own language and that really is true here.

Also, in the .35 range of engines, who makes the best in terms of performance and ease of use? It seem from lurking around the forum that Fox is the old time Harley Davidson of engines - hard to start, leaks a lot and generally a pain in the butt, but the standard more or less. However who makes the Ducatti of engines in this sport?

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide to a relay new by!

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #1 on:** May 07, 2007, 06:22:56 PM »

Welcome, am sure others will chime in but first where in MD are you? Know a great group on the Eastern Shore that could be a big help to you. Maybe someone else can point you to a club on the mainland..

PA is Precision Aero, aka Randy Smith check out the vendors section for a link to his site.

bobsdad · « **Reply #2 on:** May 07, 2007, 06:27:08 PM »

we are located near Annapolis which is not far from the Eastern Shore. We used to live near St. Michaels so we know it well. Very interested in finding a local group to hook up with. Thanks for the 'PA' conversion!

Peter Nevai · « **Reply #3 on:** May 07, 2007, 06:34:34 PM »

cg center of gravity
te trailing edge
le leading edge
nva needle valve assembly
CLPA Control line precision areobatics
PA precision aerobatics
ABN, ABC refer to engine internals (cylinder and piston etc)
rog rise of ground
Arf almost ready to fly
Arc almost ready to cover

there are more but those are the basics

Fox engines are like any other, depende how they were treated and broken in.

Lee Thiel · « **Reply #4 on:** May 07, 2007, 06:36:14 PM »

A Banshee and a Fox 35 is one of my favorites. Probably to late to change your plane, but I would move the wing forward 1 1/2 inches. If you have already installed the wing, you can shorten the nose the same amount. This will balance the plane better. They tend to be nose heavy. I like the wing moved the best.
Lee TGD

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #5 on:** May 07, 2007, 06:37:53 PM »

welcome to the sport.......it is great hobby.....

PA is Precision Aerobatics....but in the sense of Randys' engines... Precision Aero

The easiest to use engines are the OS LA series....they use modern fuels (5 - 10% nitro) and require a LOT less oil than the older style engines.

There are not many (if indeed any) 35 sized engines on the market at the moment..... I would suggest an LA46 for the banshee, although the LA25 has about the same power as a FOX..... with the 46 it will give you more versatility in that you can use it in bigger airplanes as you progress

thats' my 2 cents.....I have more spare change if you need more advice..

Wynn

Leester · « **Reply #6 on:** May 07, 2007, 07:12:21 PM »

Welcome, hope you enjoy this site and the planes as much as the rest of us. As far as engines go in the 35 size besides the Fox 35 (just a warning if you bad mouth them the " G-Man " will getcha)

there is the Magnum 36 which is an R/C engine that you will need to get a venturi and NVA for (Randy Smith vendors corner) and the Thunder Tiger 36 that Aero Products rebuilds into a 1st Class stunt engine (AT 36 or AT) Aero Tiger. The AT is not cheap but neither is a Ducatti. Good luck

john e. holliday · « **Reply #7 on:** May 07, 2007, 08:23:51 PM »

Another Fox man here, remember to treat it nice and it will be nice to you. If you plan on moving up in stunt, there are other engines available. Especially in the 40 range. If you want to spend the bucks for a super great engine that starts on 1 or 2 flips consistently and does not need needling very often, think about a Ro-Jett 40 BSRE(bar stock rear exhaust). Now for a lot less money the Brodak 40 is great if you follow the instructions to the letter and break it in right. Even after 40 some runs it is still breaking in. Now the one I consider the bottom line engine that needs little break in and runs/starts great is the OS LA 40 Silver. I think the blue coating holds heat and makes getting a consistant needle setting a chore. Anyway, remember we do this for fun. DOC Holliday

PS:Brenda Schuette did have to give me an attitude adjustment last Saturday after one of my flights.

Warren Leadbeatter · « **Reply #8 on:** May 08, 2007, 06:08:11 AM »

Hi

The Ducati would have to be Super Tigre, Fox is the Harley, Saito is the Honda, OS is the Yamaha, Cyclon the Suzuki .

I use and recommend the following sites for some good reading about Control Line in general.

http://www.vicstunt.com/ - take the time to go through the menus, there's lots of info buried in there.
http://dkd.net/clmodels/ - a look at the history of control line in Australia
http://www.aeromaniacs.com/ - a good beginners info site
http://www.control-line.org/DesktopDefault.aspx - PAMPA
http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/cox_frameset.htm - all about Cox Engines

Good Shopping places

http://www.sshobbies.com/index.html - the place to shop
http://www.rsmdistribution.com/index-2.htm - another good place to shop
http://www.aeroproduct.net/ - Randys Aero Products
http://www.towerhobbies.com/ - Tower Hobbies

Cheers

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #9 on:** May 08, 2007, 06:33:51 AM »

Quote from: bobsdad on May 07, 2007, 06:27:08 PM

we are located near Annapolis which is not far from the Eastern Shore. We used to live near St. Michaels so we know it well. Very interested in finding a local group to hook up with. Thanks for the 'PA' conversion!

Anyone have any contact info on the SLOW club, other than my buddies on the Eastern Shore I have been out of touch with that area for a bunch of years.

Bill Gruby · « **Reply #10 on:** May 08, 2007, 06:42:34 AM »

bobsdad;

Any Fox .35S between 1947 and 2007 will do just fine, RIGHT EVERYBODY?

"The One And Only G-Man"

Bill Little · « **Reply #11 on:** May 08, 2007, 06:55:26 AM »

Hi Paul,

Glad we *finally* got the registration worked out!

The Fox 35 needs a little practice getting used to as far as starting, etc., are not the most powerful 35 of the lot, but they work just fine! Use at least 25% castor oil fuel (with maybe an ounce of synthetic if it's not a really OLD Fox that has been run a lot).

The OS engines are much easier to start, etc., and a LA 25 is about comparable to a Fox 35.

The Banshee is a good profile, and Will balance OK with the Fox 35. Any heavier and it gets progressively more nose heavy. Some folks cut of the nose of the Banshee to help with the nose heavy condition. Lots of Folks here can give you advice on that.

Welcome to our *little* world and have fun!

Bill <><

Bob Disharoon · « **Reply #12 on:** May 08, 2007, 07:18:46 AM »

Thats right,"BillyG", the Fox, any year, is the way to go. The initiator of this post has a limited understanding of engines, but he will learn, just like the rest of us. Dont overload him with too much info just yet..he just turned 60

..by the way, there is a site for a c/l group outside of D.C., but its been dormant since 12/06..anybody familiar with it?....thnx, Hoosier Daddy

Bob Disharoon · « **Reply #13 on:** May 08, 2007, 08:00:31 AM »

I just checked the SLOW website..they have elected 07 officers..they fly at their own field just outside the beltway near Goddard..about 30 min. fron Annapolis

bobsdad · « **Reply #14 on:** May 08, 2007, 03:58:08 PM »

Wow! Thanks to all with the great responses. There is much to read and learn, but I guess life is one big learning curve. The Fox .35 that I have is an old one and runs O.K. so far but still need to fine tune it.

I think I'll move the wing forward on the Banshee as it has not been installed yet. Will the CG still be measured at the same points on the wing tips as inticated on the plans. I guess by moving the wing forward there won't be need to add as much weight to the rear of the plane. Is that right?

We set aside a couple of days to go to the Brodak Fly In in June. Hope to meet some of you and see lots of different planes and engines there.

Again thanks for all of the responses.

Paul

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #15 on:** May 08, 2007, 04:32:44 PM »

Quote from: bobsdad on May 08, 2007, 03:58:08 PM

<snip>
We set aside a couple of days to go to the Brodak Fly In in June. Hope to meet some of you and see lots of different planes and engines there.

Again thanks for all of the responses.

Paul

Cool, myself and a whole group from Tulsa will be there also the bunch from the Eastern Shore. You will have a ball..

Roger Vizioli · « **Reply #16 on:** May 08, 2007, 05:40:54 PM »

Bob,
Is Gigi (The Stunt Dog)coming?
Roger

Bob Disharoon · « **Reply #17 on:** May 08, 2007, 05:42:41 PM »

Quote from: Bob Reeves on May 08, 2007, 04:32:44 PM

Cool, myself and a whole group from Tulsa will be there also the bunch from the Eastern Shore. You will have a ball..

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #18 on:** May 08, 2007, 05:50:53 PM »

Quote from: Roger Vizioli on May 08, 2007, 05:40:54 PM

Bob,
Is Gigi (The Stunt Dog)coming?
Roger

Sorry to say she will be staying home with Mom.. Pat is going to Alaska right after I get back from Brodaks and she didn't want to be gone an additional week. Look forward to seeing you..
Bob

Bob Disharoon · « **Reply #19 on:** May 08, 2007, 05:53:38 PM »

bobsdad....glad you are enjoying yourself here...good question re: the c.g.....dont do anything drastic till I get to the Secret Clubhouse, and we can noodle this out, ok?
P.S.{ dont tell "Billy G" about the clubhouse at this point...he will be initiated formally at Brodak}

Keith Spriggs · « **Reply #20 on:** May 09, 2007, 07:32:27 AM »

Quote from: bobsdad on May 08, 2007, 03:58:08 PM

The Fox .35 that I have is an old one and runs O.K. so far but still need to fine tune it.

IPaul

I do not know anything about the Fox engine you are planning on using, however let me tell you about the time I did two smart things in a row. I accidentally do one occasionally, but two in a row was amazing.

When I got back int CL after an absence of thirty five years I mentioned on this forum that I had three of the old Fox engines from 35 years ago (Smart thing # 1).

Someone said I should take them apart and be sure that the wrist pin was not stuck.

Amazingly I took their advice. (Smart thing # 2).

Two out of the three were stuck. A little heat from a heat gun and they came loose. I cleaned everything thoroughly. And all three run just fine. If I had not checked them I would probably only have one running Fox now.

Bill Little · « **Reply #21 on:** May 09, 2007, 07:43:54 AM »

GREAT CATCH, KEITH!!!!!!!!!

That is a great bit of advice that I totally forgot and is imperative! A stuck wrist pin will not give you the warm fuzzies!

But, don't try to remove much (if any) of the varnish from the piston if the engine has been run much............

Bob Disharoon · « **Reply #22 on:** May 09, 2007, 12:36:13 PM »

Stupid question here: will the fox turn over with a stuck wristpin, or does it just negate some performance..Paul and I are buddies and have recently returned to C/L and have been doing some projects together.

Bill Gruby · « **Reply #23 on:** May 09, 2007, 12:50:01 PM »

HD;

The stuck wrist pin means that the upper end of the connecting rod is frozen on the wrist pin. This can cause severe damage to the engine in question. The frozen wrist pin moves and not the rod, causing damage to the liner. Rule of thumb is to dismantle the engine and see if this is occuring. If it is indeed frozen, just do as Keith said and use a "Little" heat, it will free up. As to your question --- YES it will run FROZEN. This is NOT a good thing.

"Billy G"

bobsdad · « **Reply #24 on:** May 09, 2007, 02:39:57 PM »

Uh Bob! I think we should disect a fox tommorow at the secret club meeting!

Bob Disharoon · « **Reply #25 on:** May 09, 2007, 03:02:44 PM »

Roger That......yours would be a good candidate

Keith Spriggs · « **Reply #26 on:** May 10, 2007, 05:35:48 AM »

When I disassembled the Fox engines that I had there were two different set ups on the piston pin. One had the piston pin restrained with a couple of Cee clips and the others had no retainer, however there was a brass wear pad on the ends of the pin. Be very careful if yours has the Cee clip, when you remove it. They tend to want to go across the room and hide. They are so small it is worse than losing your gum in the chicken pen.

Bill Little · « **Reply #27 on:** May 10, 2007, 06:37:10 AM »

Quote from: Keith Spriggs on May 10, 2007, 05:35:48 AM

When I disassembled the Fox engines that I had there were two different set ups on the piston pin. One had the piston pin restrained with a couple of Cee clips and the others had no retainer, however there was a brass wear pad on the ends of the pin. Be very careful if yours has the Cee clip, when you remove it. They tend to want to go across the room and hide. They are so small it is worse than losing your gum in the chicken pen.

Hi Keith,

it is amazing, but I do believe that those circlips can reach supersonic speeds when they fire away from you upon removal!!!!!!

If you DO happen to EVER find one after they take flight, please advise us as to how you did it!

Bob Disharoon · « **Reply #28 on:** May 10, 2007, 06:43:41 AM »

In my former life I dealt with circlips on a daily basis..they do make a removal tool for them. But when those suckers take off.........

Bill Little · « **Reply #29 on:** May 10, 2007, 06:52:08 AM »

Quote from: Bob Disharoon on May 10, 2007, 06:43:41 AM

In my former life I dealt with circlips on a daily basis..they do make a removal tool for them. But when those suckers take off.........

Hi Bob,

I do have a tool, but it works on much BIGGER circlips!

Clancy Arnold · « **Reply #30 on:** May 10, 2007, 01:29:36 PM »

Gentlemen
When the need to remove a cee clip arises do this:
1. Place engine in a clear plastic bag.
2. Place rubber band over bag opening.
3. Place hand inside bag opening and remove cee clip.

Rubber band keeps bag tight against your wrist leaving no openings for the cee clip to ex cape through.

Now do not loose the cee clip when you open the bag.

Clancy

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #31 on:** May 10, 2007, 03:54:57 PM »

Boy Clancy, you sure take all the fun out of it...

Bob Disharoon · « **Reply #32 on:** May 10, 2007, 05:07:33 PM »

Ill second that..Dam!

Bill Gruby · « **Reply #33 on:** May 10, 2007, 05:14:39 PM »

UH-OH--It's me

I gots to add this to that---Make Dam# sure there ain't no holes in the bag----The little fellas home right in on um.

I know get back to work---I'm goin---SHEEEEESH. Just thought I would take a fun break. BYE-BYE

"Billy G"

bobsdad · « **Reply #34 on:** May 10, 2007, 07:10:04 PM »

This is starting to scare me!

Bill Gruby · « **Reply #35 on:** May 10, 2007, 07:20:37 PM »

bobsdad;

This is the "G-Man"----Take a step back, breathe deep, count to 10-------See--you are OK, we are just funnin with you.

"THE ONE AND ONLY G-MAN"

The plastic bag trick is a must do, it is foolproof, ask me how I know

Bob Disharoon · « **Reply #36 on:** May 11, 2007, 05:47:43 AM »

bobsdad and I found yesterday that POSITUTELY ABSOTIVELY my FOX35 has no..I repeat NO circlip to worry about. I guess we wont have any "secret clubhouse" meetings for a while

Bill Gruby · « **Reply #37 on:** May 11, 2007, 06:03:57 AM »

HD;

Don't mean to bust your bubble, but if it has "BRASS PADS" it is just as bad. If the wrist pin is stuck in the rod the "Brass Pads" will also tear up the liner. You ain't out of the woods yet. That wrist pin HAS GOT TO BE FREE IN THE ROD PERIOD.

"Billy G"

Bob Disharoon · « **Reply #38 on:** May 11, 2007, 06:39:17 AM »

BG: The wrist pin is free alright!....so is the crank..its in 2 pieces...pics to follow..I wish you were there to see it

bobsdad · « **Reply #39 on:** May 11, 2007, 12:38:18 PM »

The wrist pin is definatly OK on Bob Dishroon's Fox, but the crank developed a problem during our test run yesterday. Check out the attached photo!

Bill Little · « **Reply #40 on:** May 11, 2007, 12:44:08 PM »

Let me know if you need another crankshaft. I have one that should still be good.

Bill Gruby · « **Reply #41 on:** May 11, 2007, 01:04:18 PM »

"Big Bear"

Nice thought, but where that crank broke and the way the front of it came out of the engine, I doubt if the bushing is any good? He is sending me the whole motor, if a crank will work I will send it back to him repaired. I have serious doubts that this will happen, Look at the break it is mushroomed open slightly. I'm afraid this one is a basket case.

"Billy G"

EDIT-------I blew the picture up 400% the bushing is ovaled----BYE BYE

Bill Little · « **Reply #42 on:** May 11, 2007, 02:46:54 PM »

Quote from: Bill Gruby on May 11, 2007, 01:04:18 PM

"Big Bear"

Nice thought, but where that crank broke and the way the front of it came out of the engine, I doubt if the bushing is any good? He is sending me the whole motor, if a crank will work I will send it back to him repaired. I have serious doubts that this will happen, Look at the break it is mushroomed open slightly. I'm afraid this one is a basket case.

"Billy G"

EDIT-------I blew the picture up 400% the bushing is ovaled----BYE BYE

Good catch. Looks like a new crankcase and shaft. Of course, about $50 and mail it to Fox for a NEW one! Fox still swaps old for new at 1/2 price!!!!!!!!

Bill Gruby · « **Reply #43 on:** May 11, 2007, 02:58:05 PM »

Quote from: Bill Little on May 11, 2007, 02:46:54 PM

Good catch. Looks like a new crankcase and shaft. Of course, about $50 and mail it to Fox for a NEW one! Fox still swaps old for new at 1/2 price!!!!!!!!

I have bushings, I'll bet ya the 50 I can save this one for $10.

"G-MAN"

Bob Disharoon · « **Reply #44 on:** May 11, 2007, 03:59:15 PM »

Quote from: Bill Gruby on May 11, 2007, 01:04:18 PM

"Big Bear"

Nice thought, but where that crank broke and the way the front of it came out of the engine, I doubt if the bushing is any good? He is sending me the whole motor, if a crank will work I will send it back to him repaired. I have serious doubts that this will happen, Look at the break it is mushroomed open slightly. I'm afraid this one is a basket case.

"Billy G"

EDIT-------I blew the picture up 400% the bushing is ovaled----BYE BYE

Bob Disharoon · « **Reply #45 on:** May 11, 2007, 04:07:15 PM »

Well..0ne down.

..Two to go...and no more Ebay Foxes for ole H.D..

.thanx for the diagnosis B.G.

: Ill still send it along to you..

Bill Gruby · « **Reply #46 on:** May 11, 2007, 04:25:57 PM »

HD;

Don't give up on the "Bay"-----What happened to you is not the norm-------Just follow the simple rules in this thread and you will do just fine. The age of your engine tells a lot of history, it is pre muffler from what I can see, or is it an over/under? Either way, I want to see why it broke there they usually break at the counter balence. At the counter balence they are undercut to clear the grinding wheel. That is the weakest point. This engine is worth saving or I would not waste my time with it-----Trust Me on this one.

"Billy G"

EDIT----------I looked again(danged eyes) It is an over/under, I wish I could see the break. I need to see if the broken edge is grey or black, or even better if it is both?

Bob Disharoon · « **Reply #47 on:** May 11, 2007, 06:11:07 PM »

B.G..as soon as I get your box, I will fill it with Fox 35 bits and zip it back to you..thanx, as usual, for your time and help. BTW..my day has 24 hrs. in it....I think you run 36 hrs./day

....H.D.

Marvin Denny · « **Reply #48 on:** May 11, 2007, 08:06:12 PM »

My guess would be that while the shaft bushing might have some gouges in it from the early departure of the shaft in the wrong direction, the bushing will still be servicable. It appears from the type of break that the engine was run with a "heavy hub" or a heavy prop washer (prather type) or some other weight on the crank shaft. That is one way to entice a fox shaft to come from together. (experience speaking here),\
I am ashamed and embarrased by the LACK of the more experienced engine specialints here that DIDN'T EVEN MENTION the way to find the wayward little CirClips that fly from the end of the wrist pin . There is one absolute way that works EVERY time.
Just get the wife (Girlfriend if not married) to walk around the area BAREFOOTED a couple of passes in the suspect area and when she screams that tells you she found it. Of course you have to hold her down to remove the clip from the tender part of the foot. Then tell her to stand by in case it pops out again and you might need her to find it a second time.
Hope to meet Bobs dad at Brodaks

Bigiron

Keith Spriggs · « **Reply #49 on:** May 11, 2007, 10:42:12 PM »

I ended up having to make one new clip. The bag would have been quicker.

When I was making the valve handle (about 7/16 diameter)in the picture I had it all done and was polishing it with polishing coumpound using a Dremel with a polishing wheel on it. I had a good grip on it, but all of a sudden it just wasn't there anymore. I had spent quite a bit of time making it and it had turned out pretty well. I wasn't about to start on another one without looking for it. My shop is 24x48. I started by sweeping the floor, which is generally pretty clean anyway. I didn't find it. I then started moving things like boxes that set against the wall and cleaning behind them. I eventually had cleaned about 2/3 of the shop floor and I knew it wasn't there. I set down to decide if I wanted to look anymore or start another one. I looked down at my shoe and thought ,you don't suppose. I pulled off my shoe and you guessed it. At least the shop floor was spotless for a few days.