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Author Topic: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?  (Read 3685 times)

Offline Chuck_Smith

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Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« on: December 30, 2018, 04:57:27 AM »
Yikes!

A race car can easily go through 100 gallons on a weekend. Glad I'm not racing anymore!

Apparently, the tarriffs are causing a shortage and prices are skyrocketing.

I'm thinking at even only 10% - 15% content will cause stunt fuels to increase rather dramatically.

I may have to go electric if this keeps up.

Chuck
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Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2018, 05:18:22 AM »
What do you need nitro for? 🤔 It’s like the discussion about balsawood, there is a way to get over it by changing the technology. L

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2018, 06:15:46 AM »
If you have the money and time to throw away everything you have and start over..........

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Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2018, 07:25:47 AM »
The nitro thing has been like this for a while. It only comes from China. Seems like the Top Fuel guys are the only ones that have real access to it.  I wonder how much a gallon the model fuel manufacturers have to pay per gallon?

Offline Chuck_Smith

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2018, 07:47:56 AM »
The nitro thing has been like this for a while. It only comes from China. Seems like the Top Fuel guys are the only ones that have real access to it.  I wonder how much a gallon the model fuel manufacturers have to pay per gallon?

There's plenty of VP blue barrels, just pricey,. It's used for a lot more than fuel. It's used in chemical process as well. It's used in agriculture, pharmaceuticals, health and beauty and lots of other things. The fuel aspect of it is really just a small side use.

Chuck
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Offline Bill Mohrbacher

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2018, 07:55:06 AM »
Nitro prices started jumping in the 1970s.  FAI started using no nitro fuel.  Some foreign engines coming into the USA were designed for this fuel with way high compression and were difficult to set up until we found out why.  Fox, for a while, built his RC engines to use low/no nitro and they idled even worse as US fliers never gave up nitro.  And we still haven't and probably never will.

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2018, 12:45:16 PM »
Nitro prices started jumping in the 1970s.  FAI started using no nitro fuel.  Some foreign engines coming into the USA were designed for this fuel with way high compression and were difficult to set up until we found out why.  Fox, for a while, built his RC engines to use low/no nitro and they idled even worse as US fliers never gave up nitro.  And we still haven't and probably never will.

Ok, you insisted to use nitro in engines designed to work well without, but were not happy in the way they ran. Now I understand the problem.
But seriously you don't need to throw away everything and start over (Dave), just adjust some parameters.
Of course it does not hurt to improve the thermodynamical quality of engine, like what I've done, but I don't think nobody will go for that with commercial products, unfortunately.
Like I said, nitro is not necessary for power or process stability, it mainly widens the operating window (easier needle) and manipulating nitro % is one way to compensate changes caused by atmospheric conditions. But there are other ways too. L

Offline Chuck_Smith

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2018, 01:39:31 PM »
Ok, you insisted to use nitro in engines designed to work well without, but were not happy in the way they ran. Now I understand the problem.
But seriously you don't need to throw away everything and start over (Dave), just adjust some parameters.
Of course it does not hurt to improve the thermodynamical quality of engine, like what I've done, but I don't think nobody will go for that with commercial products, unfortunately.
Like I said, nitro is not necessary for power or process stability, it mainly widens the operating window (easier needle) and manipulating nitro % is one way to compensate changes caused by atmospheric conditions. But there are other ways too. L

Lauri, I can assure you that nitromethane adds power. Gobs of it if we want. It only releases about half as much energy as the same amount of methanol, but it also provides extra oxygen for the methanol. It also needs less oxygen to combust, meaning you need less air in the cylinder charge which you can replace with more nitromethane and methanol.  The stoichiometry of nitromethane burning with air means that you could run almost pure fuel to the point of hydraulic lock if you wanted to.

We can put more fuel into the combustion chamber because the oxygen released by the combustion of nitro becomes available to the methanol, so the actual power increase is considerably more than that due to just the difference in specific energy between nitromethane and methanol - which is actually less than pure methanol.

For example - nitromethane is only about half as energetic as gasoline (petrol) but because we can run the mixture so rich and jam so much fuel into the cylinders we can get about 12,000 net horsepower from a 500 cubic inch engine. (I say "net" because we figure it takes about 1000 HP  from the crank to run the supercharger.) On pure gasoline we can get maybe 3000 net horsepower. In other words, we can put 8 times more nitro into the cylinders than gasoline.

The downside of nitro is that it's hard to get burning. You generally need to have something else burning to get the nitro burning. For example, on a Top Fuel engine we use gasoline squirted into the injector hat to start the engine on alcohol and then it get's switched over to about 85% nitromethane once it's lit. Run it lean and do a burnout to get the engine heat up. The last thing you do before you launch the car is set the barrel valve to full rich. This when it changes from the familiar "cackle" sound of a nitro motor to that angry "whompa whompa whompa" idle that means the earth is about to shake! BTW for those keeping score, a warmup, burnout and full run consumes about 25 gallons of nitromethane - to make run that hopefully lasts less than four seconds. Or looking at it another way, over 100 gallons per mile at 330 mph.

I can wax poetic about our friend CH3NO2 for a long time. Magical stuff.

Chuck
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Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2018, 01:48:54 PM »
You're of course correct, Chuck. But my point is that in stunt we don't need extra power from nitro. These are not top fuel cars.
There are many ways to reach the same end result, with or without nitro. L


Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2018, 05:10:08 PM »
Gentlemen,

I'm trying to work out the approximate cost per gallon of mixed Homebrew.

Since I fly 1/2A Cox (with a little Norvel/AP mixed in), I'd expect to blend for roughly 55% methanol (local purchase at engine builder's shop), 25% nitro, 20% castor oil.

Using $85/gal N, $2/gal M, $40/gal BeNOL, it looks like 85+10+40,
About $135/6 gallons...$22.5/gallon, with a bit of castor oil left over.
How does my math look? Am I close? If so, then I'd love to find a couple of guys in North MS to split a batch!

Offline mike londke

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2018, 06:10:06 PM »
Gentlemen,

I'm trying to work out the approximate cost per gallon of mixed Homebrew.

Since I fly 1/2A Cox (with a little Norvel/AP mixed in), I'd expect to blend for roughly 55% methanol (local purchase at engine builder's shop), 25% nitro, 20% castor oil.

Using $85/gal N, $2/gal M, $40/gal BeNOL, it looks like 85+10+40,
About $135/6 gallons...$22.5/gallon, with a bit of castor oil left over.
How does my math look? Am I close? If so, then I'd love to find a couple of guys in North MS to split a batch!
I bought Methanol just the other day from the local speed shop and it was $6 a gallon, last summer it was $4 a gallon.
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Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2018, 07:56:25 PM »
Mike,
I may need to recheck my methanol price..you and I aren't too far apart, so your price shouldn't be far from mine. I checked the engine builder two years ago.

Thanks for the reality check!


Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2018, 08:01:32 PM »
Lauri is absolutely right about not really needing nitro for stunt if the engine is designed for it.

I have owned and used several Belko long shaft engines that run very well without any nitro, in fact they don't run very well or at all with nitro in the fuel.

No they don't produce the amount of power of a PA of the some size but they produce enough and mine give a much better common stunt run, a very soft 2-4 break that is easy to control.

I also have a couple of Stalker engines (ST66LS) that provide the same kind of run with NO NITRO.  one thing that also stands out is that the engines are less stressed and can therefore be made a bit lighter.  There is a slight learning curve to using them but far less that the learning curve for Electrics (in my humble opinion).

Another advantage is that they typically use about 15 to 20 percent less fuel. 

The Belko (probably not available any more, but the Stalker's are) engines regulate nearly as well as any piped engine.  The jury is still out on the regulation of the stalkers as I'm still in the learning curve on that!

At any rate it's nice to know that if Nitro becomes "unobtanium" due to it's rise in price there is an alternative that doesn't necessarily mean less performance.

Randy Cuberly

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Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2018, 08:51:44 PM »
I'd love to try straight methanol and castor in my little engines...Cox .020 Pre Week up through Cox .09 Medallions, and AP/Norvel .061s, Norvel .074s.

Anyone try running no nitro that small?

TIA

Offline Phil Coopy

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2019, 05:57:58 PM »
Run a Stalker....FIA fuel.

Phil

Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2019, 06:36:11 PM »
Anyone try running no nitro that small?
I've never flown any engine that small but over the years I've been given quite a few Cox engines and I've read all the stories about them quitting from lack of heat if not enough nitro was used. But seeing I never use nitro, one day I decided to run some of the 049's on my usual 80/20 all castor and see what happens. Engines were a Pee Wee (single transfer?), what I believe is called a Product Engine (twin transfers) and an 051 Tee Dee. Once I'd found the correct needle setting all of them hand started with one flick hot or cold with no noticeable rev change when the glow was disconnected. All could be set into a 4 stroke with no problems. The Tee Dee was an absolute delight :).

Offline Curare

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2019, 07:21:30 PM »
I run  010's, 020's and 049's regularly, and mix my own fuel, and I wouldn't say it breaks the bank to do a batch. I generally do a cupful at a time (I like fresh fuel) and I'd be lucky to get through that in a month.

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Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2019, 06:25:51 AM »
Brian, Curare;

Thanks so much. Based on your reports, I'm going to try it!
Race-grade methanol is 30 minutes away. A quart of BeNOL just showed up at the house.
A cheesy flight report will be posted...in the spring! Lol

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2019, 09:30:36 AM »
Gentlemen,

I'm trying to work out the approximate cost per gallon of mixed Homebrew.

Since I fly 1/2A Cox (with a little Norvel/AP mixed in), I'd expect to blend for roughly 55% methanol (local purchase at engine builder's shop), 25% nitro, 20% castor oil.

Using $85/gal N, $2/gal M, $40/gal BeNOL, it looks like 85+10+40,
About $135/6 gallons...$22.5/gallon, with a bit of castor oil left over.
How does my math look? Am I close? If so, then I'd love to find a couple of guys in North MS to split a batch!

For six gallons:

Nitro:   0.25 * (6 gallons) = 1.5 gallons.  (1.5 gallons) * ($85/gal) = $127.50
Methanol:  0.55 * (6 gallons) = 3.3 gallons.  (3.3 gallons) * ($2/gal) = $6.60
Castor: 0.20 * (6 gallons) = 1.2 gallons.  (1.2 gallons) * ($40/gal) = $48.00

So $182.50 / 6 gallons, $30.40-ish / gallon.  Still cheap if you're running it through 049s.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2019, 09:38:15 AM »

Anyone try running no nitro that small?


I made a head for one of my Cox 049's, just for chuckles.  With way more compression than a typical Cox head, it ran great on 5% nitro (I didn't do any other testing).  If someone wanted to go down that road they could experiment with modifying heads (knowing what I know now, I think I'd leave off the fins next time).
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Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2019, 10:12:34 AM »
Thanks Mr. Tim,

Looks like my math was way off! I need to re-run my numbers just for the mental excersize in finding my erreor.
Your recommendation of a finless head makes me think my Charlie's heads with glow plugs may see some use! Higher compression makes me think I'll also need to consider an aftermarket HD crank (Davis, Cox Intl, EXModelEngines).
I suspect I'll be diluting my higher Nitro stuff with methanol and sneak my way down to a "No-Nitro" blend in the spring.

Offline Reptoid

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2019, 11:23:35 AM »
For six gallons:

Nitro:   0.25 * (6 gallons) = 1.5 gallons.  (1.5 gallons) * ($85/gal) = $127.50
Methanol:  0.55 * (6 gallons) = 3.3 gallons.  (3.3 gallons) * ($2/gal) = $6.60
Castor: 0.20 * (6 gallons) = 1.2 gallons.  (1.2 gallons) * ($40/gal) = $48.00

So $182.50 / 6 gallons, $30.40-ish / gallon.  Still cheap if you're running it through 049s.
Please tell us where you think you can get methanol for $2 a gallon???????
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2019, 12:56:35 PM »
The price of nitro is in the noise of the price of gasoline and lodging. Next weekend, I am going to use something like 70 gallons of gas just getting to and from the contest, where I will burn about a quart of 20% nitro. That's $253 a quart just to get there, never mind the $500 I am spending on hotel room and other items. And that is pretty typical, Muncie is about $800 of gasoline alone to burn a gallon and a half of glow fuel. Even practice is about $30 of gasoline for about a quart of glow fuel.

   Similarly, I paid about $1300 for 3 engines, over the period of 15 years, with maybe $25000 spent on gasoline alone (150,000 miles at ~22 mpg and $3.50 a gallon since 2003), and there's no indication that the engines are near the end, far from it, they might go until I croak (say, 25 years).

   I am not saying that nitro and glow fuel is not expensive, but, fuel, batteries, equipment, etc, are in the noise compared to travel costs.

   Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2019, 12:59:19 PM »
Please tell us where you think you can get methanol for $2 a gallon???????
I just took 944_jim's pricing and re-did his math.
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Offline mike londke

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2019, 01:50:37 PM »
I just took 944_jim's pricing and re-did his math.
Current price of methanol in middle TN is $6 a gallon. Up from $4 just last year.
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Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2019, 02:17:35 PM »
You guys have me scratching my chin now!
I can't remember the name of the engine shop...it is almost thirty minutes away.
The shop stocks (stocked?) Methanol by the 55 gal barrel for testing their engine builds. They build for the local racers...dirt track is pretty popular here.

When I started looking to jump back into the hobby, I asked around and was pointed to the shop. A drive-by visit had me asking the owner. He indicated he didn't normally sell fuel, but would sell off by the gallon, and only one gallon at a time. I need only to show up with my own bottle, and pump my own fuel from the barrel.

Granted this was late spring 2016...I never followed up because I couldn't find nitro. Even castor oil would have to be ordered.

Later that summerwhile at Daytona, I got a gallon of heli fuel, and a quart of truggy fuel. Armed with a fuel calculator and a pint of pharmacy-grade castor oil, my boys and I set out to fly. The hell fuel has been drawn down and mixed with a few quarts of the truggy fuel and more pharmacy castor oil. The fuel is just about gone now. The closest glow fuel is three hours south just outside Jackson, MS, or 2.5 hours to Memphis. I buy as I need, or just as I anticipate the need.
I always watch for fuel along my travels, but if this is the Holy Grail of fuel, then I'm willing to try it!

A quart of BeNOL is now waiting in the garage waiting to be mixed with whatever I get next. I guess I need to go buy a gallon now, and then post an update.

My engine collection is Cox .020, up through Norvel Big Mig .074s...even a few AP .061s, so castor is important to me. Skipping nitro makes this an easier hobby to feed! Otherwise, I may try augmenting the two-part home brew with John Deere starter fluid...I have spare reedies in the engine bin for a sacrifice!

Online Brent Williams

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2019, 04:30:09 PM »
Rather than mess around with doctoring up car, truck, heli, mystery fuel, just bite the bullet and purchase the supplies to do it right.  I mix my fuel one liter a time in a graduated cylinder for the simple reason that the metric system adds up to 100.  Figuring mix ratios couldn't be any easier than this way.

Yes, you will spend quite a few dollars up front.  Shipping is among the big costs for everything now.

Some simple arithmetic will show that a single gallon of nitro will last most fliers a very, very long time(I think I did the math correct)
Even a thirsty PA75, drinking 8oz of fuel per fun(run) would get 160 flights per gallon of nitro, mixed at 10%.  At market prices, that is 50 cents of nitro per flight to feed that brute. 
Per gallon of nitro, smaller engines running the same 10% mix could expect at least 250 flights feeding a (LA46)5oz tank, to 500 flights at (LA25)2.5oz tank.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Torco-RC-Fuel-100-Nitromethane-Gallon/202402981614?epid=1162395718&hash=item2f202866ee:g:z28AAOSwe35bcv9g:rk:2:pf:0

1 gallon of nitro will yield 20 gallons of fuel mixed at 5% nitro. = 6.64oz nitro in a gallon of mixed fuel
1 gallon of nitro will yield 10 gallons of fuel mixed at 10% nitro = 12.8oz nitro in a gallon of mixed fuel
1 gallon of nitro will yield 6.66 gallons of fuel mixed at 15% nitro = 19.2oz nitro in a gallon of mixed fuel
1 gallon of nitro will yield 5 gallons of fuel mixed at 20% nitro = 25.6oz nitro in a gallon of mixed fuel
1 gallon of nitro will yield 4 gallons of fuel mixed at 25% nitro. = 32oz nitro in a gallon of mixed fuel

Synthetic Klotz is readily available (and it smells good.)
Castor is readily available in gallon form from many sources.  (I bought mine from McMaster- Carr on a trusted tip from Howard Rush)
Methanol is cheap enough per gallon to hardly matter in the grand accounting of costs in this hobby.
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Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2019, 06:34:47 PM »
Higher compression makes me think I'll also need to consider an aftermarket HD crank (Davis, Cox Intl, EXModelEngines).
You won't need an HD crank because compression alone adds very little load, it's the combustion pressure that can cause problems and nitro is what gives a big increase in combustion pressures. However you'll get more power from a zero (or very low) nitro fuel by raising the compression to around 13:1 which would be difficult to do given the accuracy needed to determine the combustion chamber volume on small engines.

Offline Wayne Collier

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2019, 09:21:19 AM »
For what it's worth, I've run a golden bee and TD .049 on zero nitro. I didn't do a lot of testing so I couldn't say how the power compared. Once I figured out the head shims and needle, they started easy and ran well.
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2019, 10:56:06 AM »
    I was reading an article on line recently that may help make some feel better. It was about the rising cost of nitro for the NHRA teams that run nitro funny car and top fuel. At the season opening race out in Pomona, CA the going rate for a 42 gallon barrel was over $1500 and that was up from about $1200 last year. Tariffs and restrictions placed by the Chinese EPA on the manufacturer is the suspected cause.  That works out to about 36 bucks a gallon, I think If you were buddies with Don Shumacher, though, he has a supplier that can get you a better deal! He was supplying people at closer to 1100 bucks a barrel.  There was a down turn in entries in both classes and that was the suspected reason. Just FYI.
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Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2019, 05:12:25 PM »
Current price of methanol in middle TN is $6 a gallon. Up from $4 just last year.

Ok...digging up a recent thread. One gallon of methanol from the engine shop up the road is $5.50 a gallon. He buys in bulk from a distributor in GA and will ask tomorrow if the same dealer can sell nitro in gallons. I told the guy I would be able to buy only one gallon, so I understood if it wasn't enough to make it worth his time. I can't use fuel fast enough to buy anymore than that. If all I can get is straight methanol right up the road, it sure beats travelling a few hours each way for fuel with nitro.

My latest engine acquisition is an OS LA .15.  I have it under good authority that it would be happiest/most durable using less nitro than my little Norvels and Cox engines. So I'll be cutting my stuff with this fresh gallon and some BeNol castor oil.

First small  batch will be 75-80% methanol/25-20% castor. The OS will be benchtested, as will my airplane mounted Norvels and AP .061. The test will be interesting, to say the least. I'm hoping for a slightly longer, slower run in the little guys.

Offline frank mccune

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2019, 12:30:24 PM »
      OMG!!!!

      The higher price of nitro and synthetic oil is making my Diesels begin to look more attractive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lol


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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2019, 02:31:56 PM »
And, if you found enough scratch for the ether, did you have to buy it in a back alley from a guy that looked like he was hooked on his own product?

Offline Paul Wescott

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2019, 11:58:57 PM »
have you priced ether?

I have priced both...   LL~

Offline Paul Wescott

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2019, 12:03:22 AM »
And, if you found enough scratch for the ether, did you have to buy it in a back alley from a guy that looked like he was hooked on his own product?

Last year Jed K. suggested plain old starter fluid as a source of ether.  He suggested reading the ingredients to see which brand was mostly ether rather than fillers.  He also discovered that the best can of starting fluid he could find came from dollar tree so he raided several local stores.  Anyone want to guess how much one can cost?

Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2019, 05:45:44 AM »
So is ether and nitromethane the same stuff? Or different chemicals with similar properties?
Thanks in advance,

Offline frank mccune

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2019, 06:10:19 AM »
        Hi:

        I have paying about four dollars per can for John Deere starting fluid.  Enough to make one liter of Diesel fuel.

                                                                                                                   Frank

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Have You Priced Nitro Lately?
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2019, 11:21:23 AM »
Ether and nitromethane are completely different chemicals.


diethyl ether:   C4H10O

nitromethane:     CH3NO2


The ether is needed in a model engine to get it to start. You need upwards of 30% under normal conditions. With less ether, more compression and more flippy will be required. The kerosene is the range constituent of the fuel. More kero, longer flights.

I've never tried making glow fuel with ether, or running diesel fuel in a glow engine. Never felt the need to "see what would happen." Since nitro is so much easier to obtain and pay for, trying ether in glow fuel seems foolish. I don't even know if it is chemically stable, miscible, etc. I harbor some suspicion that if you tried it, just connecting the glow battery could cause ignition, never mind you needing to touch the prop. Not good. Going the other way, I strongly doubt that nitro is volatile enough to get a diesel started--but I haven't tried that either. So if you want to know, you'll have to decide if it is safe or not and give it a try.

Divot McSlow


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