Grace Paris gets tangled up in the Rat Race

[frank carlisle]

Here's Grace winning a 1/2A Rat Race at the season opener of the "Tour D' Michigan" in Kalamazoo. Even a line tangle doesn't keep her from winning the bout.

[john e. holliday]

Why to go Grace.  Now for a little advice which you can ignore if you want.  First do not fly so high, you need to learn to raise your hand up above the old guys that don't know or can't kneel down.  Also when flying solo you need to learn to walk the pivot point, not stand in one spor and pivot.  And last of all, it looks like your leading the plane a little, let the plane do the flying, sometimes they go faster.  Still a great job with the guy that got you all tied up.  Keep up the good work young lady.  DOC Holliday

[Paul Taylor]

Now that is some fast flying and fancy footwork.

Way to go Grace!

The pit guy seems to know what he is doing too.

Paul 

[Larrys4227]

Rat Racing - Is this a specific event/class, with specific plane and engine?  Just curious ....

FlySafe! Larry (Larrys4227)

[Jim Oliver]

Frank,

Thanks for posting!! 

I really enjoyed watching Grace maintain her "grace" while all the old (fill in your favorite word/phrase here) were hitting the grass.

I know this wasn't intended to be funny, but I laughed for the entire clip.........in fact, most laughing I have done in the past two months.  We need to do this at our place.

Cheers,

Jim

[Paul Smith]

At the moment, the T 'd M "1/2A Rat Race" allows "run what you brung" with an .049 on 35-foot lines.

Hopefully, the rules will be purified before the next event.  The Brzys brothers took exactly what the rules gave them.  I'm sure they will be happy to use their Black Widows as soon as then rules require them.

Frank's video is GREAT documentation of why the normal racing rules say NO THONGS ALLOWED.  The three-plane dust-up could have been reduced to one if the first guy to check the rurf had been able to get rid of the handle.

[phil c]

Good thing they were only half A's.  Looks like all the pilots need a lot of practice.  Launching/start while standing in the pilots circle is a big no no.  Flying way too high. Passing underneath.  Ya gotta learn somewhere.

[frank carlisle]

Rat Racing - Is this a specific event/class, with specific plane and engine?  Just curious ....

FlySafe! Larry (Larrys4227)

Yes Larry---this is a specific event in our "Tour D' Michigan" series. The "TOUR" is a sportsman competition fun fly. The events include:
 1/2A Rat Race
.35 Race
.35 Combat
Modified Stunt
Balloon Bust

we also have a mystery event that is announced the day of the event.
This was the first of three scheduled for this year. This one was in Kalamazoo. The other two will take place in Flint and Lansing during the summer. Points will be accumulated over the course of the three events and Tour winners will receive trophies at our awards banquet in the fall.
Here is a link to the TOUR Web Page:                  
http://www.flyingaces.us/tour08.html
The web page lists all events and rules for the tour.

[frank carlisle]

Good thing they were only half A's.  Looks like all the pilots need a lot of practice.  Launching/start while standing in the pilots circle is a big no no.  Flying way too high. Passing underneath.  Ya gotta learn somewhere.

Right Phil--ya gotta learn somewhere.
Actually Grace was flying high to give the guys still starting headroom. Also..........we put this together as a sportsman's event. The intent is to give the not so accomplished model pilot a competative venue in which he/she can hone their skills while mixing it up with more experienced flyers.

[Larrys4227]

Yes Larry---this is a specific event in our "Tour D' Michigan" series. The "TOUR" is a sportsman competition fun fly. The events include:
 1/2A Rat Race
.35 Race
.35 Combat
Modified Stunt
Balloon Bust

we also have a mystery event that is announced the day of the event.
This was the first of three scheduled for this year. This one was in Kalamazoo. The other two will take place in Flint and Lansing during the summer. Points will be accumulated over the course of the three events and Tour winners will receive trophies at our awards banquet in the fall.
Here is a link to the TOUR Web Page:                  
http://www.flyingaces.us/tour08.html
The web page lists all events and rules for the tour.

Well, it certainly looks like a fun event, and something to get alot of laughs!  I can't see how you can't laugh as your all tangled up, trying to keep a plane in the air and win a race!  Guess those planes are pretty durable, eh? I'd like to see a race where all three planes stay in the air for an extended period. Must be chaotic in the circle ... LOL! How do you not laugh your butt off??!! 

FlySafe! (Sort of...Hahaha!) Larry (Larrys4227)

[frank carlisle]

You hit the nail on the head Larry--Lots of Laughs. I've been flying stunt for a long time and after awhile it's like being in a rut. But the tour events are loads of good times and we get to do something different with the planes.
I don't know if you saw the Balloon Bust videos I posted here but if you haven't -- go find them and you'll see some really funny stuff.


EDIT---I just looked and couldn't find the post so here is a link:

[john e. holliday]

Seems to me as I remember when the guys/gals I flew with in the 70's & 80's we had more participation with the fun events.  We would fly 1/2A size planes in racing, balloon break and combat.  May have to do that again.  DOC Holliday

[frank carlisle]

We get more entrants around here with the fun events Doc. Most of the dyed in the wool stunt guys around here don't show up, but a lot of the sport flyers who aren't dedicated to one particular discipline do.
Kalamazoo is the longest stretch travel wise than the rest of the venues but we still had about 35 people 19 of which competed. The rest were wives and kids.
I have a great time doing something different with a model plane other than to chase the perfect stunt run.

[Paul Smith]

17 paid entries is good by CL standards.  Maybe better than ALL events at the AMA Nats.

Suggestions:

Racing Events:  Make all races 2-up, not 2 or 3 as the current rule states.  It's a big disadvantage to the unlucky 3.  If it comes out odd, make an effort to drum up an extra entry.  Somebody could loan out a spare model.  As a last resort draw a name for a second chance. 

Stunt:  Add a new event AMA Rule Book Stunt.   It's and either/or deal.  You can fly "real stunt" or the much-simplified "Modified Stunt", but not both.  Reason: Modified Stunt was overwhemed my full-pattern advance/expert flyers with all-out stunters.  Let them fly real stunt and leave Modified Stunt to guys who can't do the pattern.  The time different will be minimal, still the same number of flyers, just two classes.  As a biproduct, getting judges (from the opposite event) will be easy.

[Archie Adamisin]

It's great to see young people of this age flying CL.  Great job Grace!!!  You handled flying like a pro!!

Let me know when you drum up a set of rules for the 1/2A Rat racers.  I have a couple of young boys and a box of reed engines that need to be used.  My 11 year old flies R/C electric combat with me and my 3yr old wants to fly like daddy too.  1/2 a's are a blast.  I learned to fly the stunt pattern on a combat kitten with a black widow on 35' lines.  What a great flying little airplane!! 


Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

[RC Storick]

Archie is that your son Holding the plane in your Profile icon?  I heard that you were big into Pylon and have done many planes in that venue. Is this correct?

[Archie Adamisin]

Robert,

My dad Arch (Big Art's Son) flew Formula 1 & Quarter Midget 15 in the late 70's.  I was born in 1974 and watched him fly these while in my impressionable years.   I was bitten by the pylon bug in 1994 and flew Q-500, Q-40, & F5D electric pylon until 2000.  I still fly in 424 sport Q-500 once a year with my step son Nick. 

That is a picture of me @ the 1992 Chicopee Nats after winning advanced.  I was fresh out of high school, 16 years younger and 60 lbs lighter.  WHERE HAS THE TIME GONE!!!!

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

[Archie Adamisin]

John,

What type of airframe was Gracie flying and what engine?  I have a black widow and a Golden Bee.  I have a host of parts to build more.  100-125 sq in would seem like a good starting point for airframe size.

Thanks,

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

[Paul Smith]

The contest on May 10th was run with virtually no rules at all.

A 1/2A engine and 35-foot lines. Period.

Hopefully, it will be like the Musciano events next time (Black Widows or less).

The massive speed difference (45 to 90 MPH) was actually survivible with 2-up.  Grace & Jon were holding their own until the 3rd plane came up.

This is a good chance to break into CL racing at minimum cost.   A lot of plane owners are looking for pilots.  Just say you can fly one.

[john e. holliday]

I would suppose there had to be some kind of rules.  How else would people know what to bring.  Most of our 1/2A fun events back in the days were limited to kits like Goldberg, SIG and a few others.  DOC Holliday

[frank carlisle]

The contest on May 10th was run with virtually no rules at all.

A 1/2A engine and 35-foot lines. Period.

Hopefully, it will be like the Musciano events next time (Black Widows or less).

The massive speed difference (45 to 90 MPH) was actually survivible with 2-up.  Grace & Jon were holding their own until the 3rd plane came up.

This is a good chance to break into CL racing at minimum cost.   A lot of plane owners are looking for pilots.  Just say you can fly one.

Paul there are rules---you just have to look and read----

These are copied from "TOUR" web page................

1/2A Rat Race


Each flier will designate a person to time their run
Pit crew allowed to start/re-start flier's engine
One pit stop is required per race (Clarification added 5/5/08)
All engines will be running and aircraft released simultaneously to begin each race
Winner will be the flier having the shortest time for flying 50 full laps
In the event of a tie, a fly-off will be used to break the tie
Races will consist of 2 to 3 aircraft depending on the number of entries - no solo flights
Aircraft will maintain a racing altitude of 10 - 15 feet
A temporary altitude of 25 feet is permitted for passing
One warning will be given for the first violation
Second violation will result in disqualification
Aircraft can be hand launched or ROG

[Archie Adamisin]

Frank,

I guess you would be using the small baby bee tanks for the 50 lap races?  The black widow .049 should run longer than 50 laps a tank.  If I remember right, my combat kitten flew around 3 to 3 1/2 minutes on a tank.  It was not a racer, but it was pretty fast.  I flew it on 35'.  So for a 50 lap event, you would want to set-up for 30-35 laps a tank?  How many more Michigan contests do you plan to have?

Thanks,

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

[frank carlisle]

Hi Archie,
I haven't run any of the races (balloon bust and stunt are my interest) so I'm not sure what they're doing for the 1/2A race. I need a third event though and I guess I'll have to learn about it.
We have two more Tour events to go. Flint and Lansing.
Here is a link to the Tour Web Page..........

http://www.flyingaces.us/tour08.html

[John Paris]

Archie,
She was flying a Lil' Jumpin Bean that she built herself over the course of 3 years .  We had a Black Widow on board and got about 30 laps a tank on 10-25 Sig all castor fuel.  We could have done a little better, but did not make the time to optimize our set up.  I initially wanted to run a Lil Bat from Goldenhawk models but the pilot claimed it was not as stable.  I suppose that scratch building a model would work as well.  Let us know what you end up going with.
John

[John Paris]

17 paid entries is good by CL standards.  Maybe better than ALL events at the AMA Nats.

Suggestions:

Racing Events:  Make all races 2-up, not 2 or 3 as the current rule states.  It's a big disadvantage to the unlucky 3.  If it comes out odd, make an effort to drum up an extra entry.  Somebody could loan out a spare model.  As a last resort draw a name for a second chance. 

Stunt:  Add a new event AMA Rule Book Stunt.   It's and either/or deal.  You can fly "real stunt" or the much-simplified "Modified Stunt", but not both.  Reason: Modified Stunt was overwhemed my full-pattern advance/expert flyers with all-out stunters.  Let them fly real stunt and leave Modified Stunt to guys who can't do the pattern.  The time different will be minimal, still the same number of flyers, just two classes.  As a biproduct, getting judges (from the opposite event) will be easy.

Paul,
My take on this is that a pilot can always pass on this stunt event if he/she thinks they have an advantage over the other pilots.    I know that this could put them at a disadvantage for the overall point standings, but this is another issue.  Would you require someone that flies a current pattern to go into the AMA Rule Book Stunt Event or leave it up to the pilot?  Now how do we contend with the Beginners and Intermediates flying with the Advanced and Expert?  Not an easy one to deal with.  Perhaps a handicap or some type of skill multiplier could be applied to level the playing field.  A review of the scores and the standing of the pilots could be done and see if something like this would be workable.
John

[Paul Smith]

I didn't suggest going to extremes, like PAMPA, just two classes rather than one:

Modifed Stunt (the current event) with 6 simple stunts, and AMA Stunt with 15 stunts.

Just fly one of the other, but not both.  The same number of total entries & flights, but genuine beginners would have more of a chance and full pattern flyers could compete among themselves.

Getting judges would be easy, just draft judges from the other class.  The use of rookie judges would help to minimize the halo effect.

[Dennis Adamisin]

Hmmm
If I was  betting man I would bet that Arch#3 woull show-up wfor the 1/2A races with acomposite airplane - a Musicano Moldie? (say that 3 times fast...)             

[Paul Smith]

We should move this discussion to the 1/2A or Racing part of the forum, but anyway,

The races are only 50 laps, not the usual 60, so overruns with the Black Widow tank might be an issue.

However they let you start the engine early "off the clock" so you can easily burn down 20-30 seconds if you think an overrun is an issue.

Sure, Grace is a nimble pilot, but she'll need to be when my new mouse driver dominates the centre.

[frank carlisle]

17 paid entries is good by CL standards.  Maybe better than ALL events at the AMA Nats.

Suggestions:

Racing Events:  Make all races 2-up, not 2 or 3 as the current rule states.  It's a big disadvantage to the unlucky 3.  If it comes out odd, make an effort to drum up an extra entry.  Somebody could loan out a spare model.  As a last resort draw a name for a second chance. 

Stunt:  Add a new event AMA Rule Book Stunt.   It's and either/or deal.  You can fly "real stunt" or the much-simplified "Modified Stunt", but not both.  Reason: Modified Stunt was overwhemed my full-pattern advance/expert flyers with all-out stunters.  Let them fly real stunt and leave Modified Stunt to guys who can't do the pattern.  The time different will be minimal, still the same number of flyers, just two classes.  As a biproduct, getting judges (from the opposite event) will be easy.

Paul you're popping in here with all of these suggestions as if this was your show. It isn't. Pipe down.

[frank carlisle]

Paul,
My take on this is that a pilot can always pass on this stunt event if he/she thinks they have an advantage over the other pilots.    I know that this could put them at a disadvantage for the overall point standings, but this is another issue.  Would you require someone that flies a current pattern to go into the AMA Rule Book Stunt Event or leave it up to the pilot?  Now how do we contend with the Beginners and Intermediates flying with the Advanced and Expert?  Not an easy one to deal with.  Perhaps a handicap or some type of skill multiplier could be applied to level the playing field.  A review of the scores and the standing of the pilots could be done and see if something like this would be workable.
John

I think that as long as there is no hazard we should stick with fly what you brung.....Mixing it up with more proficient pilots can only raise everyones skill level for the stunt event. Placing restrictions on what model re: piped Strega  vs. a profile--won't so much level the playing field as it will lower the challenge level of building a model for the event.
The situation with the 1/2A race does present a hazard with rotary vs. reed valve engines and I think it needs to be addressed and modified to keep it safe.
While the "TOUR" is a sportsman's event it still needs to be challenging. We can't set it up so nobody loses or that everybody will be at the same skill level. By rights as a competition it should help every competitor get better at what they do.

[Paul Smith]

I'm just ONE CUSTOMER, but the wise businessman listens to all customers.

The Tour is off to a good start.  But nothing is ever good enough to ignore continous improvement.

[frank carlisle]

good logic..........hard to refute without sounding like a jerk. It's just that you are so LOUD.

[John Paris]

Sure, Grace is a nimble pilot, but she'll need to be when my new mouse driver dominates the centre.

[/quote]

Where did you dig him up?  Been a while since I have seen Tony.  I had better get some time in the circle with Grace so that she can get ready....

[Paul Smith]

The Blues Brothers are back, and they're on a mission, a mission from god.  Half a tank of gas, a full pack of smokes, sunglasses at night,,,, HIT IT.

[Scott Jenkins]

"Make all races 2-up, not 2 or 3 as the current rule states."

Gentlemen,
2 up ain't racing its a drag race , seriously work
toward 3 up the newbies will thank you for it later on.

 

Scott

P.S. In the picture J.E. Albritton, Ron Jenkins, Dick Miles
Ron started racing in earnest 6 months ago today well in the
picture they are flying F2C at 19/10 laps if they get the bug
they can get good fast, practice, practice, practice.

[Alan Hahn]

I agree that there is a big difference between 2 up and 3 up, and at least in FOx racing, it really adds to the fun. The only problem is getting enough people to do 3 up.

Fred Krueger puts on a "Coxy Hazel" 1/2 A race at Jim Renkars 1/2 A contest. Rules there are must have Sig Baby Skyrays and Cox Reed Valve motor with Black Widow Tank [so you can see where the Race Name comes from, a play on Sig's "Foxy Hazel" Race. It is a 100 lap race with no pit minimum. As I recall, no spring starters allowed, which means you want a good starter, fast runner, and fuel sipping motor. It really is a hoot to fly.

[Dave Adamisin]

Hey Archie, your little guy sure looks good holding that cool fuselage............

[Paul Smith]

"Make all races 2-up, not 2 or 3 as the current rule states."

Gentlemen,
2 up ain't racing its a drag race , seriously work
toward 3 up the newbies will thank you for it later on.

This not F2c, but the most basic of entry evel racing.  They had 7 entries, so there were two 2-up races and one 3-up race.  The 2-up races went off clean and recorded scores.

The 3-up race lasted 1.5 laps when the third man finally go started.  After the de-tanglement, the resulting 1-up race went well.

This event won't be going 3-up again any time soon.  If they have an odd number again, some body will loan out a plant to even it up.

[frank carlisle]

quote from smith----This event won't be going 3-up again any time soon.  If they have an odd number again, some body will loan out a palnt to even it up.


my response----Why do you have to keep saying what and what will not be? You got a crystal ball? Run your own show.

[Scott Jenkins]

Frank,
First off my hats off to Grace she did a good job trying to deal with the predicament she was caught in.
You may want to try 42 ft. lines they will slow the lap times and be more manageable for new pilots, plus lose the safety thongs in racing they can be a real problem, put bigger wheels on the planes say 1.25" and last but not least cut the grass lower. I hope the idea here is to encourage new people to take up controlline flying. Learning to fly level and fast with 3 people in the circle can be demanding but can be done with the right rules and conditions even for a fun event. Fun events should be easy to fly and promote competition among the contestants therefore make up any rules you want, but guarntee the contestants have fun and realize a competitive accomplishment in the process. Thats how you get them back in the circle time after time.

Paul you are right it ain't F2C but it was far from a fun race one up in the finals is a demo not a race.

Scott

[john e. holliday]

Hey Frank,  if you are running it use your rules.  But, 42 foot lines can be a plus.  They may have to use more wing tip weight.  If you are flying over grass don't worry about it being short and don't require landing gear.  With practice the plane can be brought to the pit man like they do in combat.  Can't say what I want to about the negative people, but, what ever gets the people out to fly do it.  Let them decide what improvements can be made.  Keep having fun,  DOC Holliday

[Alan Hahn]

Not really wanting to get caught in the crossfire  , but as I mentioned above, Fred K's "Coxy Hazel" doesn't have landing gear.

[Dalton Hammett]

Just to throw out some info,,  here in the Erie area we started two years ago an event we call Coxberg racing.
Basically  a solid wing profile ,  18" min. span,  32' Min lines,   Cox Baby Bee .049 only,    we fly up to 3 at a
time.    The event is bringing out some young people now and some of the older flyers who normally don't
participate in the competitions.    We are a pretty new club so getting participation is a big thing for us.

Dalton H.

[frank carlisle]

We've been going to Lansing for a few years for their fun fly. After a couple years we started getting an intramural thing going between Flint, Lansing and Kalamazoo. Last year we decided to do a NASCAR type event and modeled the different events around what Lansing was already doing. So now we call it the "TOUR D' MICHIGAN" and all three clubs in each of the cities are using the same format and hosting a "TOUR" event at their club circles. Each year our attendance has increased a little.  The "TOUR" is attracting more modelers some of whom are very, very good. And those guys will bring the skill level up for the whole group.
Right now our biggest concern is to set it up so that most anybody has a chance to do well. Setting rules that squelch spending big bucks and developing hi-tech machines while at the same time not inhibiting growth in building and flying better every season is ticklish business. We have a committee of five people who take in the feedback from the guys entering the events as well as factoring in what occurs at the events. I've been very happy with the way things are working out. The committee is doing a great job of keeping the fun in a competitive event.
Here is a link to the "TOUR" web page.                http://www.flyingaces.us/tour08.html               the information there will give anyone interested the gyst of what we're doing.
We're pretty well set as far as adjusting the format and we're gearing up for the Flint leg of the "TOUR' which is scheduled for July 19th.

EDIT MINUTES LATER TO INCLUDE THIS DISCLAIMER-----I'm not running this show. I'm  part of a group of 5 people who are running it. We are all listed on the "TOUR" web page. We work well together and I'm honored to be a part of it. 

[john e. holliday]

Thanks for all the info.  Now if I can talk our guys/gals into it.  I have suggested a grass roots racing event only to be put down royally on it.  We ran a qaudrathon event years ago with some success.  May revive it just for local participation with gas going out of site according to some people.  Now seeing people carrying 50's and 100 dollar bills to pay for gas.  Keep having fun,  DOC Holliday

[frank carlisle]

I paid $4.09 for gas when I went flying Friday Doc. At the pump I was thinking about 3 things----1/2A models, a Schwinn and the local park.

[Robert McHam]

I paid $4.09 for gas when I went flying Friday Doc. At the pump I was thinking about 3 things----1/2A models, a Schwinn and the local park.

Good thinking Frank!

Robert