Handles, again

[Mike Haverly]

    A couple of weeks ago there was a thread about "hard point handles".  The present thread by Jared Hays the question came up about overhang or the connections being too far from your hand.  Like so many others before me I tried a bunch of different handle configuration.  I was flying Intermediate and not very well at that.  Ted Fancher started selling his now famous "Ted" handles although he had a different name for them.  I had already tried "hard points" but didn't really understand the overhang part.  I bought a couple of Ted's handles for myself for Christmas.  That was the first time for me that I could actually see a difference when something was changed (trim) on my model.  It was like going from a Studebaker with its drag links and king pin steering to something with a modern close ratio rack and pinion set up!  Really, that big a difference, for me a least.  My scores went up the following season by a considerable amount and did OK in Advanced.  Enough history.

    Paul Walker recently posted a picture of his handle on the other thread and coincidentally I just about ready to start flying this year's airplane.  It was a simple matter of copying the picture, opening it up with Corel and tracing its outline.  It was then printed and the back coated with contact cement and stuck to a piece of carbon fiber plate.  It is not to hard to saw on a scroll saw, but pretty hard on blades.  It help to drill a series of holes around the outside leaving less to destroy the blades.  The basic shape is then sanded to fit your hand.

   Like Paul said, lining the holes with brass is important as the CF will wear quickly.  I've tried it, and he is right!  I used 1/8 tubing and annealed it so it wood swage easily in the holes and not break.  It took a little more than an hour, in fact it took over night for the epoxy to harden on the balsa that was glued in the middle.  I sanded the shape of my fingers into the balsa before wrapping it with tape, really not necessary, but I like it.  A piece of 3/32 Aluminum would work OK too but is quite a bit heavier and you still should line the holes with brass.

   I always make a new set of lines for a new airplane so adjusting with line clip length is not a big deal and it is easy after the initial setting.  One handle, one set of lines per plane.

   The PDF has the full size pattern on it.  Hopefully I won't get sued for some patent infringement.  The picture of my mitt is too show the very small amount of distance from my knuckles to the line connection (overhang).

   For those of you that win the NATS and beat my butt on a regular basis none of this applies.  I need all the help I can get and still find myself near the bottom of the CLPA food chain.  For those of you that haven't tried it for one reason or another, you are missing out on a chance to improve without much of an investment.

    Try it, you'll most likely like it!

Edited for grammar.

[Tim Wescott]

I need all the help I can get and still find myself near the bottom of the CLPA food chain.

4th out of 7 in Expert at the Tune Up last year,
9th out of 18 in Expert at the Regionals last year,
Right behind Walker, Cox, Rush and Resinger at the Stunt-a-thon last year,
5th out of 10 in Expert (right behind those same four guys) at the Dick Scobee last year,
6th out of 10 in Expert at the Raider Roundup last year,
4th out of 7 in Expert at Fall Follies.

If that's the bottom of the food chain, what do you need to do to feel like you're at the top?

[Tim Wescott]

I need to make me one of them.  I wish someone would laser cut (or water jet, or whatever) some of the frames.

[Randy Cuberly]

I need to make me one of them.  I wish someone would laser cut (or water jet, or whatever) some of the frames.

Why not just try a Fancher Handle from Carl Shupe...very much the same but also has overhang adjustment?

Randy Cuberly

[Tim Wescott]

The Walker handle weighs about 1/4 as much as a typical Fancher handle.  I have some Fancher-style handles that I made, but I'm thinking I should make some Walker handles.

[Tim Wescott]

Hey Mike!

What did you use to swage the tubing?  Could you post a part number if it's purchased, or a picture if you made it?

[Mike Haverly]

     Randy, exactly right, why not just get a handle from Carl.  The point of this is the fact a lot people aren't even willing to try the design.  I'm only trying to show that it is really simple to make one, or buy one as a kit or manufactured.  There are quite few excuses, and that's what mean, as compared to reasons.  I'm referring to people that want to improve and are interested to ask trim questions.  I'm just trying to clear things up as to what a "hard point" handle is and what happens when there is too much distance from the handle to the connection.  I'm not an engineer but I do understand mechanical advantage and leverage work together. 

   There is not a big problem of moving lines from one plane to another as long as the adjustment remains the same.  There in lies the problem.  It is one more variable to deal with, this is one way to eliminate that one.  If cost is an issue then buying may be a problem.  To make one, with Aluminum instead of CF is probably less than $5.00.

   Tim, I used a center punch and a hammer to flatten (swage) the tubes.  BTW, thanks for noticing that I'm not always on the bottom my flying has improved a lot due to technology and following some good advice from some really good fliers.  The problem now is that the next step is a huge leap, like Grand Canyon leap to the next level.  Start judging and you'll see how good these guys really are.  Yes, water jet or laser would be great but set up cost for someone to do it would be prohibitively expensive.  Better to just buy one from Carl or elsewhere.  Making one is easy and an inexpensive way to try one out.





     

[Tim Wescott]

I was wishing out loud that someone might make a run of the frames & sell them.

Isn't the Shupe handle a regular wood & metal handle?  The first Paul handle I saw a picture of was here, and Paul was explaining that because it is so light (his was 18 grams) he gets a much better feel for the plane.  The Fancher-style handles that I have weigh 100g, and I'm thinking that if Paul is right, I really need to cut down on the weight of the things.

[Mark Scarborough]

Tim,, yes weight is important,, handle,, and the plane,, ( and in my case,, ME)

[Steve Helmick]

My genuine TED handles weigh right at 60 grams. I guess the larger size would weigh maybe 5 or 10 g. more?

Keith Varley made some of his own handles that were balsa/aluminum that must have weighed much less, tho probably not 18g. I may have a picture...or not.

Eric Rule already has carbon plate bellcranks waterjetted. Might be he could be incited to get some CF handle frames cut? It would require two sizes, maybe more, to make them really work right. Handle has to be a snug fit across the fingers. Making your own (so it fits you) is a key factor.

"Shoup" is the correct spelling of Carl's name, FYI. This may help find contact information, or not.    Steve

[Dick Pacini]

Carl Shoup

shoupentstatorrepair@prodigy.net

970-250-8047

3172 Glendam Rd

Grand Junction, CO 81504

[Mike Haverly]

My handle with clips and safety thong come in at about 25 grams.  I usually build everything heavier than what others are able to achieve. The idea of this whole thing is to make everything feel right to the individual that is using the equipment. Custom fitting to your hand is just one more that doesn't change from flight to flight. The "feel" that comes from the extra effort is worth it, note my reference to Studebaker steering; I had two of them!

If I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure that Paul was using this style of handle long before Ted started making his available.  I will probably get corrected if I'm wrong.


Edited for grammar, again

[Paul Walker]

 Correct you are Mike!

[Randy Cuberly]

I was wishing out loud that someone might make a run of the frames & sell them.

Isn't the Shupe handle a regular wood & metal handle?  The first Paul handle I saw a picture of was here, and Paul was explaining that because it is so light (his was 18 grams) he gets a much better feel for the plane.  The Fancher-style handles that I have weigh 100g, and I'm thinking that if Paul is right, I really need to cut down on the weight of the things.

Yes Tim, the Fancher Handle kit sold by Carl Shupe is plywood in the center and metal (steel) where the lines connect...I'm sure it's a bit heavier than Paul's handle but since it's mostly balsa wood it's not in reality very heavy.  For most applications the metal attachments could be made smaller (shorter) as I have done with most of mine. My handles without line clips weigh approximately 2 oz.

Please understand that i'm not critisizing the effort to make carbon handles and certainly do not doubt Pauls efforts or success with his, but think that most people would acclamate to this style of handle if they simply would try one.  Incidentally cutting that carbon fibre is not easy.  Putting together one of Carls kits is very easy.

I set up and maintain a separate set of lines and handle for each airplane as I find handle neutral adjustment of be critical for me.  Maybe that's not quite so critical for some folks but even a slight change affects the precision of maneuvers for me!

Anyone into making their own carbon handles should do it...I would rather spend that precious time building airplanes.

You know what they say...some few folks can fly a wheelbarrow...I simply think that some folks can trim a wheelbarrow to fly well!   

The point is USE a Hardpoint Handle...get rid of the cables and their sponginess and you will fly better!

Randy Cuberly

[Randy Cuberly]

     Randy, exactly right, why not just get a handle from Carl.  The point of this is the fact a lot people aren't even willing to try the design.  I'm only trying to show that it is really simple to make one, or buy one as a kit or manufactured.  There are quite few excuses, and that's what mean, as compared to reasons.  I'm referring to people that want to improve and are interested to ask trim questions.  I'm just trying to clear things up as to what a "hard point" handle is and what happens when there is too much distance from the handle to the connection.  I'm not an engineer but I do understand mechanical advantage and leverage work together. 

   There is not a big problem of moving lines from one plane to another as long as the adjustment remains the same.  There in lies the problem.  It is one more variable to deal with, this is one way to eliminate that one.  If cost is an issue then buying may be a problem.  To make one, with Aluminum instead of CF is probably less than $5.00.

   Tim, I used a center punch and a hammer to flatten (swage) the tubes.  BTW, thanks for noticing that I'm not always on the bottom my flying has improved a lot due to technology and following some good advice from some really good fliers.  The problem now is that the next step is a huge leap, like Grand Canyon leap to the next level.  Start judging and you'll see how good these guys really are.  Yes, water jet or laser would be great but set up cost for someone to do it would be prohibitively expensive.  Better to just buy one from Carl or elsewhere.  Making one is easy and an inexpensive way to try one out.

Mike, I agree completely with everything you said.  My comment was aimed at those folks that did not want to make a handle or didn't have the necessary tools to make one or like me just didn't want to spend the time to do it, to get one from Carl and use it.  Almost everyone I've convinced to switch has improved with the hard point handle...Personally I can't imagine flying stunt with anything else now.

Randy Cuberly

[Mike Haverly]

Randy, exactly my point!  Really, the time making it is pretty short.  My budget and manufacturing background compels me not to buy any thing that I can make.  Not for everyone, I know.  Getting rid of the spongy feeling and noticing trim changes is the biggy.  Those that haven't tried one don't realize how much lag time there is between control input and results on the other end.  Then there is flying in any amount of wind or turbulence.  That becomes another game changer.  

[john e. holliday]

Well for me the  old DOC, I just fly for fun now.  Yes I enter some comps to help support the hosting clubs.   But, I switch back and forth between cable and hard point.   I use cable on planes that need adjustment of lines.  The hard points are for dedicated planes like my ISW and Primary Force.   Remember if you see me getting serious, to kick my back side back to normal.

[proparc]

Hard point handles are a TOP priority for me. The big 750sq. Saito 72 ships I fly need, first class connection to the lines. I am not interested in light weight on a handle, but I do VERY STRONGLY feel that handle\line\plane interface is of paramount importance, especially on big-very high powered ships.

[Duke.Johnson]

I don't have much to offer in knowledge concerning hard point handles, I have yet to build the kit I bought at a swap meet. I do love the feel of the one Pete Peterson gave my son, what a difference. So much so I bought the first one I saw.  I do know a bit about the feel of CF compared to other materials in fishing poles though.  CF rods transfers the feel of fighting the fish to your hand leaps and bounds over the fiber glass and other composites.  Even better if you can actually touch the CF with your hand or fingers. Same with my my road bike (bicycle) CF handle bars and other parts on the bike transfers the feel of everything better.  It just make since it would be far better in an airplane handle, as well.

PS: I'm learning a ton reading along. Thanks.

[Duke.Johnson]

Where do you find sheet CF to build a handle like that? Locally?

[Tim Wescott]

I don't know about locally, but a quick Internet search will get you a list of places that will make money disappear from your checking account, and some material show up on your porch.

Dragon Plate and Rockwest Composites seem to have the best selection for our purposes.  Dragon Plate (which is the brand that Paul Walker mentioned in his thread) is about 25% more expensive.  Rockwest composites has CF tubes, too, and your comment about being in direct contact with the CF made me think that perhaps a handle that's made with a CF plate for the leadouts, and a CF tube for the handle, may be the best approach.

[Duke.Johnson]

The major fishing rod manufactures have been making rods with direct contact with CF for some time now.  This make a big difference when drop shoting for bass or when other finesse techniques are required.  It adds up to me, rods grip or CL handle, no difference.

[Steve Helmick]

I would also suggest "Tap Plastics". Most of the composite retailers do offer various sorts of "plate", so look around with Google. I wouldn't be surprised if Aircraft Spruce and WICKS have it.

Don't overlook the use of PC board/epoxy board. I used some 1/16" epoxy board on my F1A gliders where I might choose between birch plywood or aluminum...belly plate & nose skid. The weight was roughly in the middle between those two options. I seem to recall that I bought some at Boeing Surplus (extinct), but also maybe some from Radio Shack or other electronics store. That was not copper clad, just bare epoxy/fiberglass plates. It cuts very nicely with my Dremel jigsaw, files nice, and takes paint well. For a handle, I think the epoxy board would be very good...as it's not flexing like a fishing rod (hopefully). And affordable......

I do like the idea of splitting a CF tube (1/2"-3/4" dia?) on one side and gluing that to the front edge of the handle frame, perhaps balsa for the rear "fairing", maybe fill the tube with expando-foam? But then I don't like scallops for my fingers, either. They never seem to fit. Maybe my fingers swell/shrink like my feet & ankles? The glove, it no fit, you must acquit!  

Duke...Yes, the direct contact works great on fishing rods. However, I mostly have the line over my index finger (spinning) or between my thumb and upper part of my index finger (baitcaster). This cuts the rod out of the equation to a considerable degree. Are you getting the urge to go fishing? I sure am. Riffe Lake is not a good place in Spring. Too much stuff floating in the water...logs, stumps, spare tires mounted on a wheel...ewww!  Steve

[Tim Wescott]

I've got a ton of PC board.  I'm tempted to take some out to the shop and whack out a handle.

It's all copper clad, and some of it has circuits on it, but hey -- it's still the same stuff inside.

[Bill Little]

Hi All,

Can anyone comment on the availability of the handle kits from Carl?  I bought 4 from him several years ago and got them right away.  Anyone having trouble getting them?

Thanks
Bill

[FLOYD CARTER]

My own Shoup handle hasn't been used because of my lack of "adjusting clips".  The handle has a small amount of adjust in each metal end.  I'm hoping that will be enough.

Anyway, I want to give it a try this Sat. at McMinnville.  I can always go back to my cable handle.

Floyd

[Mike Haverly]

    The dwindling supply of carbon fiber sheet that that I have came from now closed, Boeing Surplus store here in Kent, WA.  All of us that used that source were really sorry to see it go.  There is a plastics supply company here, Interstate Plastics that has a pretty big supply of K10 and plain phenolic plates and usually enough "shorts" to meet most modelers needs.  Funny, we don't seem to mind spending $500.00 or more on power train and then seemingly unlimited ceiling to complete a competitive aircraft to go with it but shy away from supplies that will cost 1/10 of that and will last for many airplanes lifetime.  I've been using .125 phenolic for bellcranks and haven't a problem yet.  No reason I can see why it wouldn't work for the above application.

    As for adjustable line clips, that horse has been beaten so badly I can still hear it gasping for air.  I bought some from McMaster Carr over 10 years ago and will not run out any time soon.  Here is the link, http://www.mcmaster.com/#stainless-steel-wire/=rdqadu and the stock number is
6517K27.  The tool with which to bend them is available from Jim Lee, I think and probably Carl Shoup.  Here, again, I made mine at least 10 years ago.  It's not very hard.

   I was asked one time, "Don't your guys ever just go fly for fun?"  This was prompted by the fact that those of that fly a lot together are always messing with our set ups, yes trimming.  The answer was simple.  "I always go flying for fun.  It is a lot more fun when things work right and the model flies correctly".

[Steve Helmick]

Floyd, if you want clips, you can buy clips or you can make clips, or you can ask somebody to make you clips, but they definitely will not just fall out of the sky and be the right length. How many months have you not had clips?  Steve

[Bill Little]

I got a "Clip Bending Machine" from Jim Lee when he was at Huntersville along with several pieces of wire that he recommended.  It takes all of 5 minutes to make up a pile of separate lengths clips.  About the simplest task of all!   Definitely worth it.  I just make one pair the same, then each next one a tiny bit longer.  Keep them all in a zip lock bag in the flight box.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Steve Helmick]

Me too, Bill. Except I emailed Jim and then wrote a check, put a stamp on an envelope (licked it and everything), put his address on the envelope, jumped back, and suddenly it appeared by official government messenger.

As for the clips...best to use 3 stock clips from Sullivan (see picture, the number is the part number) or Brodak. They do make two sizes, so you have to order the right ones for your model. Then you make clips in 1/16" increments (or 1/32", if your name is Howard), up to about 1/4", maybe 5/16" longer. None shorter! Two stock clips on the airplane, one oddball clip on the handle. This works, Gospel truth.   Steve

[Mike Haverly]

    That horse is still kicking.  Here is the clip bender I made way back when.  I think I got the design from Derek Moran on SSW.  For the tools you need a drill press, a vise, and a hammer.  Materials, which can be purchased at Ace Hardware are, 1 ea. 3/4-16 x 2.0 cap screw, preferably a Gr. 8 but a Gr. 5 would be OK, 1 ea. 3/4-16 nut, 2 ea. 1/8 x 1.0'' dowel pin, and a 4-40 x 3/4 socket head cap screw.  I forgot you need a .089 drill, a .125 drill, (reaming is better), and a 4-40 tap.  Really straight forward and easy to do.  Derek designed a handle to go with it but I just use needle nose pliers only because I'm too lazy to make the handle.  Jim's probably comes with a handle, I've been getting along fine without out it.  Use a Dremel abrasive disk, (aka Dangerous Disk) for a clean cut.  Regular side cutters will work but the material is pretty tough.

[Steve Helmick]

I was going to ask about how everybody cuts the ends of the wire. Like Mike, I also use the "Danger Disc" method. And I'll admit, mine look a bit funky at first, but a cleanup of the end cuts and a little massaging of the bends, and they be fine. Fine enough, anyway.

When you're using the "Danger Disc", it is really important not to nick the other wire, I betcha. Anybody got a good trick for avoiding that? Slip a piece of hacksaw blade between, or something like that? I've needed to make some more clips for the last couple of years. Maybe tomorrow...maybe not.    Steve

[Randy Cuberly]

 
   I was asked one time, "Don't your guys ever just go fly for fun?"  This was prompted by the fact that those of that fly a lot together are always messing with our set ups, yes trimming.  The answer was simple.  "I always go flying for fun.  It is a lot more fun when things work right and the model flies correctly".

Mike according to Chip Hyde the serious R/C guys are even worse!!

It's fun being good at something and even more fun trying to be the best (even when you know it's not likely to happen).

Randy Cuberly

[Brett Buck]

If I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure that Paul was using this style of handle long before Ted started making his available.

   Correct, but hardly a secret :

http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=364208&mesg_id=364208

   Brett

[Mike Haverly]

Brett, I remember that thread also.  At some point in time that horse will submit to the inevitable and rigor mortis will set in.  Some people will never even try anything new and complain about something totally unrelated when much of the time the problems could go away just by following some of the advice on these forums. 

[Tim Wescott]

When you're using the "Danger Disc", it is really important not to nick the other wire, I betcha. Anybody got a good trick for avoiding that? Slip a piece of hacksaw blade between, or something like that? I've needed to make some more clips for the last couple of years. Maybe tomorrow...maybe not.    Steve

I figured out the length to make the blank so that the clip ends up right.  I cut a bunch of blanks with a danger disk, then clean them up on a bench grinder, then toss them in my flight kit.

That's why my short clips have long arms on the end of the "U", and my long clips have short ones.

[Brett Buck]

Brett, I remember that thread also.  At some point in time that horse will submit to the inevitable and rigor mortis will set in.  Some people will never even try anything new and complain about something totally unrelated when much of the time the problems could go away just by following some of the advice on these forums. 

    Howard said it, "pathologically original". For the most part, doesn't really matter, if people want to do something, who cares? It' s a little frustrating to see people continue to struggle with long-solved problems just because they don't want to try the real solution, but what are you going to do?

      Brett

[Ted Fancher]

   Correct, but hardly a secret :

http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=364208&mesg_id=364208

   Brett

Thanks for the link, Brett.  For those who apparently think I tried to take credit for Paul's development but didn't follow that thread here's what I posted there back in 2011 (which is also essentially the same story related in the info sheet with every Precision Pro handle I ever sold.)

"The Ted handle exists for only one reason. I caddied Paul Walker's airplane in Shanghai at a WC 15 or more years ago and while carrying his handle I noticed that his looked very much like the eventual Ted Handle. Only difference was that his wasn't adjustable in neutral/overhang and he had to use home made line clips to adjust neutral (as many do now with Ted Handles...I personally tie my lines as accurately equal as possible and find very little need for any significant bias in overhang to achieve my preferred vertical at neutral setting...never requiring more than tiny differences in overhang.

Since Paul pretty consistently beat my butt blue and since he does nothing for "no" reason I thought I'd investigate the concept. Drew the outline around a worn out Hot Rock (the "Perfect" shape for a stunt handle) and made the first ever in a few hours in the shop using brass inserts vice the steel in the "production" versions. Took it out to fly and essentially never flew another competition flight with anything else.

There are a large number of converts to the (originally Paul Walker) design and a significant number of National Championships won using the handle after their conversions. All were da*n good before their conversion but all think they're just a bit better since."

FWIW, I've never intentionally tried to take credit for developments I've shared in print or otherwise after learning about them from someone else without giving appropriate approbation to the individual who deserved the credit for doing so.  Paul has been among the most frequent recipients of such "credit where it is due."  I would also point out that my handle kits were sold under the ostentatious name "Precision Pro" and the "Ted handle" sobriquet became common only when the repeated handle threads started to appear in the forum about the time the "hard point/cable" debate became a regularly recurring subject.

Finally, I"ve spoken since VSC with Carl as I had heard some comments about where to get the handles and he assures me that they are still available through him at the address and phone number provided in an earlier post by Dick Pacini: Carl Shoup

shoupentstatorrepair@prodigy.net

970-250-8047

I'm embarrassed to say I failed to ask for his current mailing address so can't vouch for that part of Dick's post and won't copy it here.  I emailed Carl with my inquiry and he responded the same evening by phone, indicating that he preferred  to speak directly.  I did urge him to post periodically on threads such as this to insure fliers continue to have a current contact.

Ted

Ted

[Jared Hays]

I ordered one from Carl and received it a couple days later. Then ordered the line clip bender tool from Jim Lee and again received it a couple days later...Unfortunately with the demise of my Strega, I haven't tried it out yet.  New Strega is on the bench.

[Jim Kraft]

I made three handles using 3/32" aluminum with some light weight lath for the handles. Mine are not adjustable but have very little overhang as that is the feel I like. I did bush the holes with brass tubing and I have one of Jim Lee's clip benders. They are probably not as light as the carbon fiber, but they are still very light. I have been using them for about 15 years and they seem to hold up well. I fly with an old Easy Just once in a while and can really tell the difference.

Great job on the handle Mike. It is fun making your own stuff. Oh! I have watched you fly at VSC and you fly way better than me.

[Geoff Goodworth]

What size wire do you use for your different length clips?

[Steve Helmick]

I seem to recall that mine are .055" stainless of some sort...as recommended by Jim Lee.  Steve

[Randy Cuberly]

I've been using .047 music wire for the clips but stainless might be a bit easier to work with.

Where did you buy the .055 stainless?

Randy Cuberly

[Bill Little]

(snip)
Finally, I"ve spoken since VSC with Carl as I had heard some comments about where to get the handles and he assures me that they are still available through him at the address and phone number provided in an earlier post by Dick Pacini: Carl Shoup

shoupentstatorrepair@prodigy.net

970-250-8047

I'm embarrassed to say I failed to ask for his current mailing address so can't vouch for that part of Dick's post and won't copy it here.  I emailed Carl with my inquiry and he responded the same evening by phone, indicating that he preferred  to speak directly.  I did urge him to post periodically on threads such as this to insure fliers continue to have a current contact.

Ted

Ted

Hi Ted,

I contacted Carl around the 4th of April.  He assured me the handles are available.  I use the large size and he can ship those right away.  He said he was waiting for a delivery any day now for some parts for the small size.

All my dealings with Carl have been great, and I plan on picking up maybe another 4 pack pretty soon!  As the Monkees sang, "I'm a believer'!

Bill

[Jim Kraft]

Randy; I believe McMaster Car has the .055 stainless. Jim Lee also sells it.

[Mike Haverly]

.051 is what was used originally.  From my earlier post:   Here is the link, http://www.mcmaster.com/#stainless-steel-wire/=rdqadu and the stock number is 6517K27.   It comes in a tube, not a spool.

Quick service and the wire is easy to work with. 

[Tim Wescott]

.051 is what was used originally.  From my earlier post:   Here is the link, http://www.mcmaster.com/#stainless-steel-wire/=rdqadu and the stock number is 6517K27.   It comes in a tube, not a spool.

Quick service and the wire is easy to work with. 

That link leads to a whole page of choices.  I assume you get the "spring back" wire -- which alloy?

[Mike Haverly]

the stock number is 6517K27.   

[Tim Wescott]

Thanks Mike.

[sadams714441]

Need some advice with all this info so which is a good allround handle for that's been away from sport for years.

Steve