Handles

[Dwayne Donnelly]

Pampa facebook posted some of the handles used at the worlds, this one intrigues me, so at level flight the flyers  wrist is bent down? What benefits/advantages does this produce? 

[Brett Buck]

Pampa facebook posted some of the handles used at the worlds, this one intrigues me, so at level flight the flyers  wrist is bent down? What benefits/advantages does this produce?

   It's generally a bad idea and should not be used, unless you are so locked into it that you can't change.

     Brett

[Dennis Adamisin]

Next time you’re at a major meet, instead of walking the row of airplanes, walk down the handle end of the flight line; my bet is that you will see far more creativity and personalization between the handles than the airplanes.

[Dan McEntee]

Pampa facebook posted some of the handles used at the worlds, this one intrigues me, so at level flight the flyers  wrist is bent down? What benefits/advantages does this produce?

      No real advantages, just the way it's been done for decades. Imagine holding a pistol out at your arms length reach. It's more or less natural to have your hand at a slight angle like you are holding a pistol grip. The down side is you don't have as much movement in your wrist for down as you do up. But even going far back into the old days, there were both kinds of handles, biased like the photo and unbiased like the EZ-Just and some others. Even Cox made their handles both ways over the years. It's hard to train yourself away from them but doable. As I made the effort, I was even able to rework some older Tom Morris biased cable  handles into nonbiased.  Like Dennis mentioned, check out other people's handles when you can. There is always room for improvement!

  Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Dwayne Donnelly]

Well well, It could be this guy here, check it out he's holding the handle straight up and down but the bar the lines  attach to is on an angle, interesting, I think..lol
 

[Joseph Lijoi]

Next time you’re at a major meet, instead of walking the row of airplanes, walk down the handle end of the flight line; my bet is that you will see far more creativity and personalization between the handles than the airplanes.

Somewhere I have a handle that your dad made for me many years ago. It was made out of red fiber (micarta) that we used as an insulator on welding applications per GM standards (the Clark Street plant lineage was fairly obvious). It had lots of overhang and was offset 7 degrees "like a German Luger". It had a roll pin crimped to the cable that had a push fit to some holes in the handle body for line length adjustment. A neat design and well made. It looked a lot like a Bob Hunt CSC handle. It seems like this type of handle was popular at one time.

Ted Fancher published a doctoral thesis on handle geometry in his MA column years ago that basically provided analytical scientific theory on why the E-Z Just Hot rock was the gold standard for PA. It is definitely a different feel.

Unfortunately MA failed to publish Mr. Fancher's calculations for the gravitational pull generated by the planet rotating about its axis, which is a key consideration for any flying object that is tethered and whose flight path is spherical. Apparently this was due to a lack of space.   

[Steve Helmick]

Pampa facebook posted some of the handles used at the worlds, this one intrigues me, so at level flight the flyers  wrist is bent down? What benefits/advantages does this produce?

The "rake", excessive "overhang" and weight are all handicapping the flier. I'd bet that handle weighs close to half a pound, while the best flier's handles are well under an ounce. Looks to be nicely machined and crafted, but none of it is helping the flier score better. I met a guy who had a favorite handle that was custom...cast aluminum. IIRC, it weighed 17 oz, but he just loved it for his ARF Flite Streak. OMG    Steve

[John Park]

      No real advantages, just the way it's been done for decades. Imagine holding a pistol out at your arms length reach. It's more or less natural to have your hand at a slight angle like you are holding a pistol grip. The down side is you don't have as much movement in your wrist for down as you do up. But even going far back into the old days, there were both kinds of handles, biased like the photo and unbiased like the EZ-Just and some others. Even Cox made their handles both ways over the years. It's hard to train yourself away from them but doable. As I made the effort, I was even able to rework some older Tom Morris biased cable  handles into nonbiased.  Like Dennis mentioned, check out other people's handles when you can. There is always room for improvement!

  Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

Interesting.  Clearly, we're not all built the same.  I have noticeably MORE movement in my wrist for down than I do for up.  To get equal movement, up as well as down, using a handle without bias I need to hold my elbow bent and apply control by twisting my wrist (as I'm told Bob Palmer used to, because of his hand injury and the special handle/glove he had to wear).  This is OK for smaller models, but flying with your elbow bent can get pretty tiring with a model that pulls hard!

[Ken Culbertson]

This is OK for smaller models, but flying with your elbow bent can get pretty tiring with a model that pulls hard!

I thought the same till Brett convinced me about 4 years ago that everybody's wrist is like that.  Watch video's of as many top fliers as you can and you will see that most all of them fly with their elbow bent to some degree or another.  In my case I actually measured the amount of wrist movement I had in total and found the point where bending my elbow produced a vertical handle with no bias and equal wrist movement.  It took a long time to get used to flying like that but now I can fly a complete pattern with F2B type corners by just using my fingers and hardly moving my wrist at all **.  As to the pull, it is part of the game.  My PA weighs 70oz and pulls 12-15 lbs throughout most of the pattern.  My arm does get a bit sore after about 4 flights.  So build light or carry some Tylenol in your flight box but make the change.  You won't regret it.

Ken

** That is a byproduct of the canard I use to lessen handle pressure.  I do the same thing on my profile with spades.  Line pull is different from handle pressure and the lessened pressure lets me use my fingers more.  BUT, I couldn't ever do it with a pistol grip handle.

[Brett Buck]

Interesting.  Clearly, we're not all built the same.  I have noticeably MORE movement in my wrist for down than I do for up.

     Unless you got your hand cut off, and put back on by the local barber, it's not that different. You have the answer - your arm is straight. If I put my arm out straight, I get the same thing.

     I am not going to harp on it, but I already gave my best advice, but it is entirely up to you.

      Brett

p.s. If you want to talk about load and effort, the very large *overhang* on the handle in the picture is just as big a factor.

[Ken Culbertson]

Next time you’re at a major meet, instead of walking the row of airplanes, walk down the handle end of the flight line; my bet is that you will see far more creativity and personalization between the handles than the airplanes.

Do that in the 60's and creativity would have been what color you painted on the up line end of your Hot Rock! 

[Paul Van Dort]

I have been analysing  the handle parameters. With respect to the symmetrical handle versus pistol grip discussion, I feel that the symmetrical handle (for me) requires the hand very close to the body. Exactly as I see Brett flying. I feel much more comfortable with my arm extended. Not  completely, but to a point what I experience as "relax". For me the advantage of this extended arm is the ability to cope better with Line tension issues in the very turbulent environment of our flying circle in Herentalss, Belgium. In case of a sudden drop of linetension, I can quickly pull back. Quicker than stepping back. Also for the overhead situations, this works well for me.  If I would be flying in "clean" air all the time, I could get my hand closer to my body and my handle would become more symmetrical, getting rid of the "pistol grip" angle.

[Steve Helmick]

If your model pulls hard and you keep your arm straight...allowing your tendons to take the load...you'll have a VERY sore shoulder after a flying session. If you bend your elbow and pull the handle anywhere close to your chest, your biceps take the load it won't be painful at all. Plus, you'll eventually get buff and attract the hotties. Win-win!  Steve

[Ken Culbertson]

Paul:
I can't top Steve on this one.  The hotties are a faint memory now.  I scrounged up a couple of clips from videos I did in 2018 (pre enlightenment) and recent.  That little change in arm position probably improved my flying 100% but it took two years to completely erase 60 years of doing it wrong.  One thing that surprised me is that the need to fly palm up inverted simple went away on itis own.  Try it, you'll like it.

Ken

[Paul Taylor]

Jim Lee had the most interesting handle I have ever seen.



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[Ken Culbertson]

Jim Lee had the most interesting handle I have ever seen.

Wow, adjustable bias.  I guess if you are going to have it, it should at least be adjustable! 

[Dan McEntee]

Jim Lee had the most interesting handle I have ever seen.



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    He's had that handle as long as I have known him, since about 1987 I think. It's the only one I have ever seen him use. I don't know if he just has the one of several, but I think he uses it on just about everything he flies. He was flying hard point before the term had been invented!!

   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Lauri Malila]

Paul:
I can't top Steve on this one.  The hotties are a faint memory now.  I scrounged up a couple of clips from videos I did in 2018 (pre enlightenment) and recent.  That little change in arm position probably improved my flying 100% but it took two years to completely erase 60 years of doing it wrong.  One thing that surprised me is that the need to fly palm up inverted simple went away on itis own.  Try it, you'll like it.

Ken

I don’t know if people actually think about these things when flying, but it’s too easy to focus on one detail in the system and base all the theories blindly to it.
I also fly with quite straight arm, but using just the wrist movement as a base for the handle rake/bias ponderings does not work well in reality. Even a very slight angle in elbow, or just a slight bend of wrist to the direction of knuckles changes the ergonomy of handle movement completely. Instead of just turning the wrist there is also a torsion in the ulna/radius complex in your forearm. It changes everything to so complex that it’s not worth worrying. L

[Steve Helmick]

In case of a sudden drop of line tension, I can quickly pull back. Quicker than stepping back. Also for the overhead situations, this works well for me.  If I would be flying in "clean" air all the time, I could get my hand closer to my body and my handle would become more symmetrical, getting rid of the "pistol grip" angle.

I fly with my elbow bent some in most maneuvers but arm pretty straight in OH8 and Clover. Mostly so I don't hit myself in the head with my fist or snag my glasses with the lines, but also so I can pull down on the lines/model up top if lines go slack-ish. If things really go south, I turn and RUN, while holding full up. Backing up is a waste of time, IMO, most especially if the model is up high in the sky with no power. RUN, Wilbur, RUN!    Steve

[Steve Helmick]

Jim Lee had the most interesting handle I have ever seen.



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Yikes! Neat idea, but for rake & weight issues. I've either seen the handle at VSC or seen pictures of it. I wonder if he's heard of the Derek Moran-style clip maker before.  Steve