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Author Topic: Hand Cutting vs Laser Cutting: A Cottage Kit Maker's Point of View  (Read 2750 times)

Mike Griffin

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Laser Cut versus Hand Cut

In the beginning there was balsa and man.  Somewhere in history man decided to take balsa wood, some tissue paper and a power source and make a toy that flew and would entertain them for hours upon end.  And they saw this was good and a new hobby was born.

Now back in the day, before man had computers and CAD programs and Laser Cutters, the craftsman who loved to build these models, had to draw some blueprints of what they wanted to create and have a basic knowledge of the physics of flying.  Once they had a working drawing of what they wanted to build on paper, they began their task of cutting a fitting parts together to create something that would fly on the end of a couple of wires and make you dizzy.  Thus the stone age of control line flying was born.

Fast forward to today.  Tools, technology and materials have advanced to a point where creating models has become an art form and a science.  We have literally thousands of designs to choose from and not enough time to build even a fraction of what is available.  Like someone once said, “so many women, so little time”.  Well we could say, “So many planes to build….so little time.”  Only those of us in the hobby could probably relate to that.

Today you have basically three choices if you want a model.  You can either get a set of plans and gather all the tools and materials you need and scratch build it yourself, have a cottage kit maker hand cut it for you and furnish you the plans to assemble it or buy a kit that has been laser cut.  Now some of you are probably saying, what about the ARF choice?  Obviously there is a market for that too but that is not what this writing is about.  What I want to do here is discuss technique and what is involved in hand cutting vs. laser cutting kits.

Hand cutting has been around a lot longer than laser cutting and I have seen some absolutely beautiful hand cut kits that have come from kit makers such as Larry Richards, Tony Drago, Walter Umland and Tom Morris.  I am sure there were and are more than these and I do not mean to leave anyone out.  I just happen to know these folks and the quality of work they produce.  Hand cutting is definitely a labor of love. It is a solitary experience between man and his skill.  When you hand cut a kit there is only one person responsible for the finished product and that is you.  

Let’s assume that I announce on the forum that I plan to hand cut a certain design and will cut only 12 of these kits.  What I do personally is try to find a design that has never been kitted or hasn’t been kitted in a long time or is not available by another kit maker.  I see no reason to duplicate something that is already available.  Once I have the required amount of firm commitments, I will then start the process of kitting the model.  

I cut templates for each part from the plan and then cut the parts from the templates.  Each part has to be cut carefully and then sanded to the correct shape to match the plan.  This is a long and painstaking process to do it right. There are hours of labor involved in hand cutting a kit in addition to material cost and shipping cost which by the way are becoming a major part of pricing out kits.

The great thing about hand cutting kits is that you are not depending on anyone but yourself to produce a great product and the time it takes is up to you.  Cottage kit makers take a lot of pride in their work and especially if they hand cut.  If you cut a part and it is not quite right, you can stop right there and redo it and make sure it fits.  I personally like to hand cut kits because you are in control from start to finish.  Hand cutting is not a complicated process; it just takes time, patience and practice.

Laser cutting is a horse of a different color.

Since the laser has been introduced to our hobby, it is possible to have parts precisely cut with clean cut edges and they will fall together perfectly.  Or do they?  What really goes in to producing a laser cut kit that will go together without any hitches.

Let’s examine the process of producing a laser cut kit from a cottage kit maker’s point of view.

The first step is the same as hand cutting; choosing a design and plan of the model you want to produce but from there own we are on different planets.  

You will have at least three people involved that will be working together to produce the laser cut kit that will be accurate.  Let’s trace the steps

The kit maker sends the plans to a CAD designer.  He then will study the plan and usually call you and the two of you will discuss what can and cannot be done and what may be done to modernize the construction (if it is an older design).  CAD guys are great about making suggestions and you and him or her have to agree upon what will be done.  That is not always an easy task because you are looking at the project from a kit maker and builder point of view and they are looking at it from another point of view.  In any case when an agreement is arrived at, he creates the file in Auto Cad which is very time consuming and the file is then sent back to me and whoever is going to laser cut the parts.  I have to examine the file for any mistakes that might be there and the laser cutter dissects the plan to see if it can be laser cut the way the CAD man drew it.  More times than not there will have to be changes made for the laser to cut it properly so the laser cutter contacts me with the changes that need to be made and then I have to get back with the CAD designer and inform him.  This process can literally go back and forth for weeks believe me.   This can become very stressful.  Once the CAD file and the laser are in harmony with each other, I request a prototype be cut so I can build it and make sure everything fits together properly.  Sometimes it doesn’t and you have to start the whole process around the loop all over again.  I have built as many as four prototypes before the kit was ready for release.  This whole process just leading up to getting the kit to the point of actually kitting it, can take months.  My good friend Walter Umland went through this process for a year and a half just to get on particular model out for release.  The Kenhi Mustang I am about to release took 7 months so far.   Just think about the amount of hours involved just to this point to get the kit to the point where it is ready to be produced.  

Once the final file is sent to the laser cutter, the kit maker has to make two balsa orders: one to be sent to the laser cutter for the parts that are going to be laser cut and the other to himself that will go into the kit such as sheeting, spars leading edges, blocks etc.  By the way, that is two shipping charges.

Laser cutters charge by the minute so whatever amount of time it takes to cut a kit x the number of kits is what you pay them.  You also have to pay the CAD designer for his time also.

Once the kits are cut, whoever was doing the laser cutting for you ships all the parts to you (another shipping charge), and then the kit maker sorts everything out, pays for having the plans plotted for each kit, boxes everything up and ships it out to the customer (another shipping charge)

I want to make it crystal clear that nothing in this is a criticism to anyone.  It is simply the way things are done.  It takes an extreme amount of teamwork and coordination between everyone involved to make this venture a success..

Gosh I think a laser cut kit should sell for around $800.00!  Seriously consider all of this for a kit that will sell from $100.00 to $250.00.  You have to love doing this or be crazy.

In conclusion whether you buy a hand cut or laser cut kit, the main reason they do it is for the love of the hobby and their desire to give something back.  That is the reason I do it and I am thankful that I am able to do it.

Mike
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 12:20:29 PM by Custom Cut Kits »

Offline Dick Pacini

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Re: Hand Cutting vs Laser Cutting: A Cottage Kit Maker's Point of View
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2010, 12:15:48 PM »
Thanks for a very thorough explanation of the processes involved in today's cottage kit industry.  Kits are absolutely a great bargain. y1
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Mike Griffin

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Re: Hand Cutting vs Laser Cutting: A Cottage Kit Maker's Point of View
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2010, 12:20:59 PM »
You are welcome Dick

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Hand Cutting vs Laser Cutting: A Cottage Kit Maker's Point of View
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2010, 01:29:49 PM »
Mike,
  Thanks for the explanation behind the production of yours and others kits. It certainly makes the final "guaranteed to go kit". I have always home brewed my own models (usually from plans) and I know just how difficult it can be, poor plans, nothing fits, balsa selection, oh heck do I have to order more quarter grain etc, etc.
  When you look back over some of the old kits that have been foisted on an unsuspecting public, well you have got to give it to people like yourself, we do have a golden age right now!

Best regards,

Andrew.
   
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Hand Cutting vs Laser Cutting: A Cottage Kit Maker's Point of View
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2010, 02:26:09 PM »
HI Mike,

Thanks foer your insight into the process.  Having been involved (to a MUCH lesser degree) in other Hobby forms as to *production*, I know it is a long process, 99.9% of the time!  And NO cottage industry will ever make enough for that beach cottage in Tahiti! ;D

Thanks for what you do, it is appreciated by all.

Bill
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Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Hand Cutting vs Laser Cutting: A Cottage Kit Maker's Point of View
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2010, 06:14:59 PM »
Very good analysis of the process.

In my case (Blue Sky Models) I do all my own CAD work also. This is the only way that I have to totally control the quality of the finished product, and easily make any changes to improve the product. I was hoping to have a laser by this time, but the deal fell through. Currently the only one making money is the guy with the laser.

With all this some think that we are too expensive. I guess that they never heard about red ink. Like Mike said, the real value is about $8000!

Probably the biggest killer has been the introduction of products made in RED China.

In my past life in Aerospace, we looked into having plating done in RED China. We could have saved money... BUT.. we saw unventilated tubs of chemicals, dirt floors with puddles of chemicals,and workers inhaling fumes, working in bare feet, with open sores on their feet...

I am sorry, but I refuse to support that.. And don't forget that, even if the politicians and news media now ignore it, it is still COMUNIST RED China.

They don't care about their people, and also have no conscience about producing your product , changing the name, and selling it in other countries, and you will never know it.  I will not support RED China.
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Re: Hand Cutting vs Laser Cutting: A Cottage Kit Maker's Point of View
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2010, 07:22:54 PM »
I hand cut my kits.  I also do my designing on CAD, but can't afford laser cutting, and pretty sure I wouldn't use it if I could--for me, it would take all the fun out of it.  Cutting the parts is where the enjoyment lies, I just like hands-on messing with balsa.

I certainly agree, no money in it!  I have never tried to keep track of the hours per kit, for fear I'd find I was working for about 75cents/hour or something. Better not to know. I can invest time in it because it's a hobby, helps keep me sane; cheap therapy.  The price of the kits covers the materials, S&H, and pays for materials for my own building projects.  So I put a lot of time into the hobby but hardly any money.  Works for me.
--Ray 
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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2010, 07:30:17 PM »
I am working on my new project Revolutions in the electric forum.
Yes it we do it for the love of the hobby. I personally have spent the last 4 years on and off to design this project. Trying to foresee every detail and have it built. I also use the new technologies and then some I went the CAD CAM route with CNC molds cut to unbelievable precision and looking for about the loftiest goal I have ever dreamed to go to.
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Happiness is the harmony between what you think and what you do. Mahatma Gandhi

Mike Griffin

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Re: Hand Cutting vs Laser Cutting: A Cottage Kit Maker's Point of View
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2010, 08:27:25 PM »
I really appreciate the feedback and am glad other cottage kit makers are contributing to the conversation.   I hope as time goes on it will just get better and better for everyone and our hobby will have a long and bright future after us older guys are long gone.  I see kit making and scratch building going extinct in the RC market because of cheaply made Chinese ARF's and would hate to see that happen in the control line world.  I think a very cherished part of the hobby would be lost and it just would not be the same.

Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Hand Cutting vs Laser Cutting: A Cottage Kit Maker's Point of View
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2010, 07:37:09 AM »
Mike,
Amen.

It is unbelievable that people buy those things either knowing that they have to improve them before flying, or just get bit.  Then they buy another. I guess they have deep pockets. Yet, they can't afford our kits. Again, I will not support RED China.

I know that building time is at a premium for everyone, but we are losing all sense of pride in what we have. We in the cottage industry do our best to provide quality in a instant gratification market.

A few years ago Walter quit, and I (and some others) talked him into coming back. Kyle quit laser cutting because of increased balsa costs and the ARFS.

 Personally, I have several customers that have not paid me for work done for over 2 years. Looks like that money will never be recovered. Now Walter is trying to encourage me to stay at it.

 I am working on a new multi purpose design that is aimed at the sport/intermediate market as a step-up from profiles with modern aerdynamics, unlike most of the old designs that are again kitted. It will be a fun fast building, easy to build, airplane that can also be used in Intermediate and Advanced contests.

I am leaning towards publishing it in the only magazine that is still paying for the effort. But that also means it can't be kitted for a min. 6 months after publication. One of the people who is building one of 5 prototypes thinks it will sell several hundred kits because it is so unique, but maybe I need the "instant gratification" of some cash after spending hundreds of hours developing the airplane.
The first prototypes are almost finished. and there will pictures soon.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 08:03:53 AM by Tom Niebuhr »
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Mike Griffin

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Re: Hand Cutting vs Laser Cutting: A Cottage Kit Maker's Point of View
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2010, 09:44:32 AM »
I appreciate this kind of feedback and participation that goes to the heart of our hobby.  My hope is that the hobby we enjoy so much will continue to grow and thrive as new ideas hit the market. 

I am just thankful that we have people in this country who can supply us with our needs and wants so that our hobby can thrive and hopefully grow in coming years.  There is room for everyone in this hobby and the spirit of cooperation between cottage and larger scale manufactures of kits and supplies is unique to anything I have ever seen before.  Instead of a existence of competition, there is a a spirit of helping each other to succeed.  I have said this before but the first people I knew to contact when I started in my little cottage hobby was Eric Rule, Larry Richards, Walter Umland and Tom Morris.  Everyone of them were unselfish with their time and literally spent hours with me on the phone to make sure I succeeded.  No where is my 40 year working career did I ever have anyone do that.  Had I known others at the time who were cutting kits, I am sure their attitude would have been the same.

Right now, at this time, we are fortunate to have people like Eric Rule, Walter Umland, Larry Richards, Tom Morris, Barry Baxter, Tom Niebuhr, Randy Smith, Byron Barker,John Brodak and others I can't think of right at this moment that offer us their own little niche in the market that we can cherry pick for our individual needs.

My concern is that these skills and talents be passed down to future generations so the next generation of hobbyist have the same resources that we enjoy today.

Who can put a value on this? 

Offline Marvin Denny

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Re: Hand Cutting vs Laser Cutting: A Cottage Kit Maker's Point of View
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2010, 10:23:08 AM »
  I started to not say anything in this thread because of the possibility of someone taking it the wrong way and becoming disgruntled, but ----here goes.

  First,  the providers' of bulk wood, plans, short kits, full kits, ARCs and component kits, and ARFs and RTFs are to be commended for their efforts and sacrifices toward making our chosen passtime as pleasurable as possible.
  There are those of us who either cannot afford or justify the expenditure of top quality laser cut kits nor even some of the better quality ARCs due to "family responsibilities or perhaps other more important items such as medications etc.
  There are those who live in complexes where it is improbable to use paints or fuels, or  perhaps they have medical problems that prohibit use of certain glues and/or paints.
  I myself have always been a staunch believer in the BOM rule to the point that  I think that if you didn't build the model (not assemble pre-built wings, fuselages, and other "components",  you do not fly in competition.  As I am getting older and getting in a little more "infirm" health, I am finding that it is difficult to build and do intricate work associated with modeling, so---- the leaning towards better kits and/or ARFs and ARCs becomes more appealing.   BUT and that is a BIG but it now becomes a choice of do I get a "cheap Chinese built thingie" OR-- spend $200 to $300 more dollars on an "American product"?  Well,  I can better use the "excess dollars" on medications to control my medical problems or at least the pain of it  if I by the cheaper product.
  What I am trying to say here is that no matter what one spends his money on he should not be "looked down on" just because he doesn't buy the top line stuff, or American products.
  Lets see now----  Buy American---- You got the RO-JETT, AERO-PRODUCTS and the FOX lines of engines   need I say more.
  Sorry I drew this out as long as Ted Fancher would have, but that is just the way it is.
  Again thanks to all the producers ans suppliers of everything it takes to make our hobby enjoyable.

  Bigiron
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Offline pat king

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Re: Hand Cutting vs Laser Cutting: A Cottage Kit Maker's Point of View
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2010, 01:35:18 PM »
Mike,
Thanks for starting this. All my kits are laser cut. My hand cutting wouldn't make kits any better than the original "die crushed" ones.  I do my own CAD work so that saves a lot of the back and forth on that end. My plans show all parts full size so that repair parts can be made from them, or they can be used for scratch building. As you have pointed out none of the cottage kit makers are going to get rich doing this. If I count my time I probably am not much more than breaking even. I do this for the love of the hobby, and to give people kits that they can no longer find. Or, the ones they can find are typically expensive and often not much more than junk. A quality hand cut or laser cut kit can be assembled, filled, and sanded in 1/2 the time or less than the originals. The kits we produce today fit together, the original kits typically do not fit together well. The quality of the kits provided today by the cottage kit manufacturers far exceed that of the originals. I know today's kits seem expensive, even more so for those of us who remember the $2.95 Sterling Ringmaster kits. There is a market for ARF and ARC airplanes as well as quality kits.

Pat
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