Half-A Stunt at Brodaks Fly-In

[Scott Richlen]

Thursday was Half-A Stunt Day at Brodaks and I managed to get a few shots of the planes.  It was not the best of flying conditions but we flew anyway!

I don't know who flew what or in some cases even "who", so feel free to reply and identify yourself or other culprits you recognize.   

[Scott Richlen]

More...

and even a group shot of the brave aviators who risked life and limb (does that sound too melodramatic ?) to face the storms of nature with their fragile little flying machines.

[Scott Richlen]

Last 2 pictures are of my little machine.  My intended candidate (the Bonzo) didn't get done in time, so I had to find a substitute: my Half-A Silver Lancer (based on an American Modeler 3-view from about 1962.  It was originally designed as an .049 free flight!)

It had been built a few years ago for a club contest.  On its second flight at the club contest it crashed and pretty much demolished itself.  I unhung it from the (water) pipe and did a quick repair.

Notice it is flat-plate technology!  I think I came in 4th.  Not bad for flat-plate technology, huh?

Take a close look at that in-flight shot!  You'll notice that I am also flying a miniature combat plane with its lines attached to my belly button. (I claim that as a special talent.)

[Carl Cisneros]

Glad the 1/2A stunt went well for all those that entered.

NOW:   If those that are reading this would post a picture of their craft and stats please.

i.e., model, power, fuel used (% nitro), lines and length, prop used, ect.

Thanks much.

Carl
Maybe next year I will break out my 1/2A speed ship and bring it along.

[Larry Renger]

So, who flew and who won? That has to be the biggest 1/2A stunt event I ever heard of! Hats off to all the pilots. 😁

[bob whitney]

there was I believe 19     entries and at least 6 others that didn't fly

[goozgog]

Thanks Scott for starting this thread and posting the pictures.

  I'm hoping someone will post a photo of the scoreboard and
that the competitors will tell us about what they flew.

- Tim Stagg won with his Tsunami. See more in the 1/2A forum

- I landed second with my Focke-Wulf Dora. (1/2A forum article)

-  Chris Fretz  was third with the purple and yellow 1/2A pathfinder.

- Mike Londke was fourth with a foamy combat model and a very fancy .049.

  The conditions were breezy but most planes managed the full pattern,
minus a lap between stunts and only four inverted.  Scott wrestled his
reluctant Silver Lancer through the entire pattern and had the large ( 50+)
crowd of spectators cheering.

  This event stirred up a lot of interest before, during and after the flights.
The quality of the planes was amazing. Most were built just for this event
and most were finished as well as the big CLPA entries.
   I was concerned that the .061's would dominate and there were plenty of them
but Cox was equally as successful.

  Let's see those pictures guys. 

Cheers! - K.

[Skip Chernoff]

Chris Fretz got 3rd with that pretty Pathfinder. I crashed my entry while practicing on Wednesday evening up on the speed circle. I'll be back! Skip

[Will Davis]

[Will Davis]

We made the local Newspaper too

[Chris Fretz]

I used a Brodak 1/2a Pathfinder with a Big Mig .061 on suction with a 2oz clunk tank. One head shim, with a adapter to use a regular glow plug. 42ft lines, 10%nitro, 5.5x2.5 prop.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[kenneth cook]

              Nicely done Chris, also my prop of choice for stunting using the Big Mig. Ken

[Carl Cisneros]

Would any others care to make their inputs of the models that they flew?

Thanks

Carl

[jfv]

Al Ferraro and myself built a pair of Half A Mirages for the event.  Mine (green) was blown out of the square eight by a 25 - 30 mph wind gust and the wing broke when it hit the ground.  Repairable.  210 square inch cored foam wing, powered by Norvel .061 on a bladder.  All paint.  Overall weight 12 oz.  Flew very well on 48' .008 lines.  Going to use longer lines when I fix it.  After my crash, Al decided not to fly as the winds were just getting too much.  Blew the chairs over.  I was the last to fly.    Fun event.  Hope they do it again next year.

[Skip Chernoff]

Carl here was my plane.I crashed it the night before. RSM Pinto, 11 oz ,TD 051,42' 008 lines. She flew great,but had poor fuel milage.  I'll be better prepared for next year.

[Scott Richlen]

Carl:

I used flat-plate technology.  Big-Mig .061.  home made uniflow tank of 1 1/2 ounces.  45' .008 lines.  Home made handle.

[Scott Richlen]

Plans were in 1960-something American Modeler as a free-flight.

I decided it needed a hard-point handle for more precise control (everyone who saw it fly in that wind knows what I'm talking about).

[Frank Imbriaco]

Al Ferraro and myself built a pair of Half A Mirages for the event.  Mine (green) was blown out of the square eight by a 25 - 30 mph wind gust and the wing broke when it hit the ground.  Repairable.  210 square inch cored foam wing, powered by Norvel .051 on a bladder.  All paint.  Overall weight 12 oz.  Flew very well on 48' .008 lines.  Going to use longer lines when I fix it.  After my crash, Al decided not to fly as the winds were just getting too much.  Blew the chairs over.  I was the last to fly.    Fun event.  Hope they do it again next year.

Jim : Both are as cute as a bugs ear.

[jfv]

Thanks Frank.  They were really fun to build. 

[Frank Imbriaco]

Do the rules permit electric power ?       OOPS- just saw on Brodak's website that it's I.C. only, .061 limit.

[Dennis Adamisin]

Do the rules permit electric power ?       OOPS- just saw on Brodak's website that it's I.C. only, .061 limit.

Was too bad.  I brought a 1/2A Pathfinder & a Wee Duper Zilch that both fly very well, - WITHOUT glitchy engine runs!

[Larry Renger]

If you want to write rules to allow flying electric in 1/2A, all that is required is to either limit the watt capacity of the motor (about 100 watts) or the watt-hour capacity of the battery (11.4 Watt-hours). Either of those specs will limit the power and duration to only fly 1/2A size models.

Some experimentation is needed to refine the above numbers, but this should be close. I expect Dennis can improve on the accuracy of my estimates.

[mike londke]

Keep electrics out of the Brodak event!!!!!!!  Part of the challenge is getting 1/2A IC motors to run correctly. If electrics are in next year, I'm out.

[bob whitney]

I am with mike I will be out also

[Dennis Adamisin]

In the past 1/2A Stunt has grown & waned with the patience of people putting up with 1/2A engines - it has been an ENGINE event first.  However I understand & respect Mike's, MM's & RAD's point of view - and they are not alone.

I am on the other side of the fence - 1/2A engines are a PITA!  BUT but I still like flying the small airplanes. 


BTW: Chatting with folks around the tents at Brodak, seems there is interest a separate class & shorter pattern that could be flown with reedies on a single tank run; Golden Bees with the built in tank and roughly 3 min engine runs... 

BTW #2, one easy equalizer is to limit everyone (from .049 - .061 or electric) to a 6" dia (2-blade) prop.  That effectively limits the amount of energy that can be converted to thrust.

 

[goozgog]

  I am with Mike, Bob
and Motorman,

If electric is allowed
count me out.

- K.

[mike londke]

In the past 1/2A Stunt has grown & waned with the patience of people putting up with 1/2A engines - it has been an ENGINE event first.  However I understand & respect Mike's, MM's & RAD's point of view - and they are not alone.

I am on the other side of the fence - 1/2A engines are a PITA!  BUT but I still like flying the small airplanes. 


BTW: Chatting with folks around the tents at Brodak, seems there is interest a separate class & shorter pattern that could be flown with reedies on a single tank run; Golden Bees with the built in tank and roughly 3 min engine runs... 

BTW #2, one easy equalizer is to limit everyone (from .049 - .061 or electric) to a 6" dia (2-blade) prop.  That effectively limits the amount of energy that can be converted to thrust.

Would it be feasible to have another 1/2A class for electrics and run it along with the IC class with the same judges on the same day? Just have separate awards? That way everyone is happy. I don't have a problem with electric 1/2A as long as it is it's own event.

[Frank Imbriaco]

Been running 1/2 A aircraft since the late 50s. Somewhere, Bob Hunt has a 1961 circa pic  of me with my first built-up 1/2 A powered ship, a  Berkeley" Buhl Pup ".  Thirty years ago, taught my kids to fly ukie using several 1/2 A ships.  Have built dozens of 'em. Currently,  1/2As constitute 50% of my extensive collection of vintage tether cars. I love them.

1/2 A power and e-power both run at w.o.t.  The major electric   advantage is starting, and I agree that they are finicky little beasts, so perhaps a bonus for I.C. similar to the bonus ignition engines get in OTS.

I'm all about growing events and accomodating what's left of the hobby, not restricting .  We all know the hobby is dwindling. After seven decades  of involvement, not seeing an uptick .
If a pilot can power his aircraft with a belt driven prop spun by a gerbil on a wheel, I'm for it.

[Scott Richlen]

I'm thinking that an electric half-A would wipe out the I.C. engines.  For that reason I'd like to keep the event I.C.

However, this points out a major (maybe) need: the electric half-A equivalent is anything but "equivalent".  It is expensive, not mountable with 4 little screws, and not robust.  When we were kids, we'd buy a Cox 049 for $3.95, screw it to the firewall and go fly.  I never even came close to breaking one.  At the most, I'd break a prop.  I think that we could use an electric half-A system that is "equivalent" in that way.

[Skip Chernoff]

There are some very good suggestions presented here. I like the idea of making it an all "Reedy" class with a shortened pattern.....or allow the electrics to compete,but with a very large bonus for folks flying IC power.

Personally I struggled for two years with my Pinto.Tried 3 different engines TDs,Norvels,V-A with different tanks and could never get a good run or finish the pattern with any combination. Cheers,Skip

[jfv]

I am an avid electric flyer and was a participant in the event at Brodaks.  That being said, I think 1/2A stunt should be limited to gas power plants.  The quirkiness of the engines adds an element to the event.  It seemed to me that the event wasn't really about putting up the perfect pattern, but trying to get the planes to actually fly through the pattern and watching everyone's reaction to the various gyrations of the pilots and planes.  Even though wind finally got my plane, It really was a lot of fun.  It might have been different if the wind was reasonable, but there is something about a screaming little 1/2A on the front of a speck of an airplane drawing figures in the sky, some of which were hard to figure out what they exactly were.  Can't wait until next year to try again.

[Tim Stagg]

I am with many here that I see a lot of goo ideas to make this better. One of the reasons I was so looking forward to the event was that its so hard to get a decent engine run...it was going to be a blast to see who was able to even finish a pattern..let alone do it well.

I am an electric guys as well, but I think this is one event that should have a different class for the electric flyers if they they want to fly...there is just too much of an advantage for electrics...and I would even go as far as it would be less fun to watch...you know they will start and keep running.

I also like the reedy class idea...I would enter...this would really be fun ....but I still want to fly my Tsunami also

I don't think the option of bonus points would work because it would have to be a hefty bonus almost to the point of being unfair to the electric entries

[Dennis Adamisin]

Wow. Lots of great ideas.  WHile I did not specifically say it in my earlier post, the primary advantage of electrics - NO engine problems!  That in itself is the prohibitive reason to keep it separate.  Table that for a bit.

Those who can extract top perfromance from .049-.061 class engines deserve to show that off - as was seen at the Brodak show.

Why a Reedy class? Because THOSE are the engines we grew up on!  My brother & I burned up literally GALLONs of 30%-40% nitro (Rat Racer fuel) 8cc at a time through baby bees & golden bees.  We even had a couple with dual port sleeves.  However we'd be hard pressed to make a reedy competitive with even a Tee Dee, much less a Big Mig .061.  These engines are still plentiful too.

SUGGESTIONS FOR A REEDY CLASS: (just cuz ya gotta start somewhere)
* Cox Reed Valve, OK Cub, Wen Mac or Testors up to .049
* 35' lines, 15#(min) Spectra (short lines make it easier for single port engines, harder for the late series hi performance reedies because of excess speed)

* Maneuvers (blend of Modern & OTS maneuver descriptions. Goal is to fit expected flight duration for a Golden Bee integral tank)
   > Reverse Wingover
   > 3 round Inside loops, recover inverted
   > Inverted flight
   > 3 round Outside Loops, recover upright
   > 3 round Lazy 8's (like OTS except keep to 45 degrees)
   > 3 Vert 8's (like OTS)
   > 3 OH 8's (like OTS)
   > 4-Leaf Clover (enter/exit from level flight)

* No Take-off or Landing, allow hand launch & belly landing (omitting LG improves performance when power is marginal)

I think this would be easy to participate in with a Baby Flite Streak or Combat Kitten type airplane with a Golden Bee. My often flawed long term memory is that I could get about that many maneuvers out of a Golden Bee, but would have to try it again to see!

FEEDBACK?



 

[Fredvon4]

slight disagreement with this assertion...."35' lines, 15#(min) Spectra (short lines make it easier for single port engines, harder for the late series hi performance reedies because of excess speed)"   the excessive speed part

All the various combinations of available cylinders and their porting schemes can easily be managed just like big engines with various Prop diameter and pitch as long as rules are NOT set to any specific propeller......type

We all know there is a BIG diff between a typical Baby Bee and a Golden Bee or Black Widow power and rpm wise

focus on fact it is a stunt contest and not a speed contest....I am never gonna fly this but agree that in this case electric should be separate event and a IC 1/2a official pattern should be discussed, negotiated and adopted.....

[goozgog]

  I like the idea of framing rules to
encourage reedies to compete.

  There is such a huge selection of cylinders
tanks and configurations that trying to
keep them inside specific rules would
be difficult.

  For example, a cheap "product engine"
could use any tank and so have an
advantage over a Baby Bee even if
 it had the identical cylinder and reed.
  I think it would be better
to just insist on a reed engine , on any
plane and any lines.

   As we all learned as kids, getting a
decent engine run from a reedie is
a neat trick, no matter how it is
achieved.

   Dennis' suggested pattern sounds
reasonable, and/or is a good place to
start the discussion.

Just my two cents. - K.

OH! Skip...  I'm going to do a post
on how I sleeved down my TD venturi
using K&S aluminum tube.
  That's why my TD's are stunting well.
Don't give up on yours yet.. 

[Tim Stagg]

I agree with Dennis and also Keith, I like the pattern and just use nay reedie that you want.

[Scott Richlen]

Probably add: "up to 2 refuelings allowed to complete pattern."  I don't think a regular tank Babe bee would fly long enough to get through even half of the proposed pattern.

[Frank Imbriaco]

 A reed engine class  is a  very good idea. We all have our roots in them. Sounds like the majority don't want this to become an electric event.
Understood.

[Skip Chernoff]

Keith thanks for the encouragement . BTW your 1/2A semi scale FW was waaay cool! If we decide to go the "Reedy" route I won't have to think about getting the sleeve in the TD. One thing though.... whatever we decide on let's get the rules set early on so we can all build a few planes to have on hand....."just in case".
 This year I ran out of time on my  new  1/2A Pathfinder. Too many projects going at once!

[Mark Mc]

* Maneuvers (blend of Modern & OTS maneuver descriptions. Goal is to fit expected flight duration for a Golden Bee integral tank)
   > Reverse Wingover
   > 3 round Inside loops, recover inverted
   > Inverted flight
   > 3 round Outside Loops, recover upright
   > 3 round Lazy 8's (like OTS except keep to 45 degrees)
   > 3 Vert 8's (like OTS)
   > 3 OH 8's (like OTS)
   > 4-Leaf Clover (enter/exit from level flight)

* No Take-off or Landing, allow hand launch & belly landing (omitting LG improves performance when power is marginal)

FEEDBACK?

Trying to figure out the Reverse Wingover into three Inside Loops.  I can see a Wingover into three Inside Loops, or a Reverse Wingover into Outside Loops.  In fact, the Reverse into Outside would save a little time and fuel.

I like this discussion, being a Cox fanboy at heart.  And it bolsters me to tell the wife that I want to fly out to Brodak's next year.  After all, we're going to Hawaii this year because she wants to...

Mark

[Scott Richlen]

Mark:

In a reverse wingover you fly over the top, pull out inverted, do a half lap and then fly over the top again (following your original path) and pull out upright.  One or two more laps and you are ready to enter your inside loops.

[Carl Cisneros]

what planes would be good for the reed motors for stunt?

Just got a 1/2A Pathfinder kit for my NV 's.

Carl

[Rick Bollinger]

I believe a stock baby bee and a stock golden bee are identical except for the size of the tank. Both were single port cylinders no boost ports and same size venturi openings in the backplate, The Black widow had dual ports and a slightly larger venturi.

[Joe Ed Pederson]

I believe a stock baby bee and a stock golden bee are identical except for the size of the tank. Both were single port cylinders no boost ports and same size venturi openings in the backplate, The Black widow had dual ports and a slightly larger venturi.

I don't think new single port cylinders are available anymore.  Cox International doesn't sell single port cylinders.  The reed valve engine .049 cylinders Cox International sells are dual port.  Scroll to the bottom of the page of this address https://coxengines.ca/top-end/ to see the .049 cylinders they do sell.

Joe Ed Pederson
Cuba, MO


Joe Ed Pederson

[Larry Renger]

The Black Widow venturi was the same size as the Golden Bee. The Venom had a larger venturi. y

[Rick Bollinger]

Thanks for the info Larry. If anyone would know it would be you. Did the Black widow have the screen omitted for more air flow?

[Larry Renger]

Black Widow did have a screen, the Venom not.

[Larry Renger]

Perhaps this will help"

The Knights of the Round Circle set up a "Kwikee Stunt"  contest.  The rules are very simple and posted below.

You could modify the rules to allow full airfoil models and limit the engine to Cox Reed Engines or equivalent. Whether to allow separate tanks and the hottest reed engines would need to be discussed. For example, a Killer Bee with separate tank would have a serious advantage over a Golden Bee.

 

[Carl Cisneros]

Larry;
with the given prop technology of today.
Do you think a reed back plate assembly would keep up on the back of teh NSM?

Carl

just throwing it out there   

[Larry Renger]

Sorry, I don’t understand the question. What is a n NSM?