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Author Topic: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD  (Read 9284 times)

Offline Al Rabe

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Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« on: June 04, 2015, 03:18:50 PM »
I check the stunt forums every day, read each issue of Stunt News, virtually cover to cover, and keep an eye out for other possible sources of usable information.  last fall I noticed a number of comments to the effect that disabling  Rabe Rudders seemed to help the performance of some stunt ships, particularly those using reverse rotating motors.

It seemed time to try again to make gyroscopic precessional effects and the use of a Rabe rudder more understandable.  I started another article to clarify, not only gyroscopic effects on our airplanes but to illustrate how a simple rudder linkage might minimize the sometimes negative effects of gyros on our maneuvers.

Our stunt ships are pulled through the air by propellers.  These propellers exhibit the physical characteristics of gyroscopes and are subject to precession when the prop disk is pitched or yawed. Gyroscopic precession is poorly understood by many modelers and the existence of these effects seems doubted by others. An example of gyroscopic precessional forces can be experienced by picking up your airplane with the engine running.  Point the nose rapidly up and down.  Left and right yaws should be apparent as the airplane's pitch attitude is changed. This is a hazardous experiment.  If you must, at least use extreme care.  This experiment can also be performed using a fairly large prop on a strong hand drill.

Typically, we experience gyroscopic precession each time we make a high rate, nose down pitch in our outside maneuvers and lose a bit of line tension as our airplanes yaw slightly inward.  Gyroscopic yaw is also present in our inside squares creating a bit more tension with outward yaw, but it's typically unnoticed.  In short, elevators pitch our stunt ships and create gyroscopic yaw.  If the elevators are connected to the rudder by a simple pushrod, gyroscopic yaw can then be balanced by deflecting the rudder whenever the elevators move.

This works well enough unless the engine/motor and prop rotation are reversed.  With reverse rotation, a typical Rabe rudder linkage would magnify gyroscopic effects instead of minimizing them.  This erroneous linkage could make these stunt ships with reverse rotation virtually unflyable.

Over the years, I have written a number of articles on gyroscopic precession in our stunt ships, and a practical way of minimizing related negative effects to outside maneuvers. This latest Rabe Rudder and Reverse Rotation article is my current effort to be enlightening, and, hopefully interesting.  It contains a total of about 4300 words and 50 photos. It's too big to fit comfortably into either Stunthangar or Stuka Stunt forums.  I was also sure that it wouldn't  be much fun trying to "shoehorn" it down a manageable size for either forum. Also, I didn't want to offer it to Stunt News. I'm not comfortable there since Tom Morris left. The easy decision would be to tack it onto the contents of the "Al's Models 3" disk.

The five years old "Al's Models 3" disk, already contains 153,485 words, 1300 pages of text and photos and a half hour of video. It's a combination of two previously sold Al's Models disks. The first disk sold was "Al's Models" which, in this collection, is now "Book 1".  The second disk sold was "Al's Models 2" which, in this collection, is now "Book 2".  

Material already on "Al's Models 3" includes a 53,662 word Snaggletooth Mustang building tutorial and a 25,047 word autobiography published in Control line World magazine eight years ago.

"Book 2" led off with the 1973 Sea Fury article "Go For Broke", the 1978 Mustang article "Evolution of a Thoroughbred" and a large Mustunt IV tutorial.  Most would consider these to be significant classics justifying new exposure to our current crop of stunt flyers.  The rest of Book 2 is mostly a collection of my files of Stuka Stunt postings, some dating back more than twenty years.  In fact, most of the material on these disks is copied from a number of publications. Whatever the sources, copied or original to these disks, it is all written and photographed by me.  Book 2 also contains a photo gallery and a half hour of video.

The "Book 3" addition to the "Al's Models 4" disk began with the Rabe Rudder article, a building tutorial on the construction of the Classic legal Mustunt II and an article containing descriptions, photos and plans of all of my airplanes. Once again, I also searched my files to find useful, and hopefully interesting information accumulated in the eight years since "Al's Models 3".

The new total for "Al's Models 4" is 187,426 words and 1601 pages of text and photos. I gathered the contents of these three books as a resource, an unmatched collection of information containing a half century of control line stunt design, building and flying while employed in an airline career.

Somewhere, during the writing and compiling of Book 3, I created a flaw in the text with a broken or corrupted entry. I completed Book 3 but it wouldn't copy.  It appeared in the first few "Al's Models 4" disk contents as:

 ~$'s Models Disk 3.

Attempts to copy Book 3 kept meeting with Microsoft comments about Book 3 causing serious error, and Microsoft would recover the document if I didn't mind losing my formatting and 300 pictures. My computer skills were inadequate to fix the problem so I added a new Book 3 copy, in addition to the corrupted Book 3, to the contents which would play, if a bit slow to load.

Al's Models Book 3

While looking for help with the problem and seeking comment, I sent out 20 copies of the new "Al's Models 4" with both Book 3 entries in the contents.  The computer problem was solved with help from friends and appears no more.  To improve downloading, book 3 joined books 1 and 2 in PDF format.  Now, all three books download instantly. If anyone has one of those first 20  disks which included both copies of Book 3 which fail to load properly, contact me for a replacement.

With problems solved, Al's Models 4 is available for purchase.  See Classifieds for address and price.

Al
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 04:42:17 AM by Al Rabe »

Offline Al Rabe

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2015, 02:40:49 PM »
No comments even on the gyroscopic precession?  I know that some people are having trouble with line tension on outsides.  This information could help.

Al

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2015, 03:25:15 PM »
Hi Al!
Is dvd number 4 primarily dedicated to the principals of the rudder being used? I would love to read up more on that.
Thank you!

Offline Al Rabe

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2015, 07:17:16 PM »
Dane,

There is all the information needed on the design, building and flying of control line stunt that anyone could want.  Rabe Rudders commands no more space than building metal tanks, molding balsa using laser cut parts, wing jigs, engine installations, leadouts, shock gears, finishing, graphics, sanding, ink lines and more other subjects than I can suggest here.  There is probably 50,000 words on gyroscopic precession, theory, installation and trimming of Rabe Rudders.  That only leaves about 137,000 more words and 1200 pages of topics of interest. The building and painting tutorials alone run at least 100,000 words and are extensive and highly detailed with hundreds of photographs.
If competence and value concerns you, you could look up some of the topics listed here and view them free and complete on Stuka Stunt.  The trick, of course, is getting these and all of the magazines featuring my best articles all in one place for a very reasonable price and realizing that the best of the best were not published on forums. "The Evolution of a Thoroughbred" was published in full, not only in the US, but in England and Japan as well.  Arguably, my best articled was "Al Rabe, Control Line Stunt Flyer" in the October 2007 and January 2008 issues of Control Line World.  It was a big article With more than 25,000 words featured in two issues.  I strongly recommend this article and I'm sure that John Brodak would be happy to sell you copies of these magazines.  In my opinion the magazines containing this article would be worth far more than the cost and, of course, they are here on this DVD.

Al
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 08:33:25 PM by Al Rabe »

Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2015, 09:13:27 PM »
I'd always been curious about one aspect of precession with our props, that being was there in difference when the two blades rotated between being vertical and then horizontal to the direction of turn. I just carried out an experiment to find out before I asked here. I took a length of wood about 27" long, drilled a hole at the centre and mounted it in a hand drill. Sure enough, when I simulated a turn the drill rocked quite violently from side to side during the movement proving what I'd suspected. The rocking frequency obviously must have been at twice the revs of the drill. That means with a two bladed prop and engine at 10,000 revs then there'd be a 20,000 cycle pulsing between zero precession and full precession. I'm not certain but I suspect a 3 bladed prop wouldn't do this because the centres of mass from each blade are equally distributed around the centre so acting more like a solid flywheel.

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2015, 09:15:57 PM »
So would smaller props at higher rpm clear some of that up while maintaining thrust?

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2015, 01:27:43 AM »
I'd always been curious about one aspect of precession with our props, that being was there in difference when the two blades rotated between being vertical and then horizontal to the direction of turn. I just carried out an experiment to find out before I asked here. I took a length of wood about 27" long, drilled a hole at the centre and mounted it in a hand drill. Sure enough, when I simulated a turn the drill rocked quite violently from side to side during the movement proving what I'd suspected. The rocking frequency obviously must have been at twice the revs of the drill. That means with a two bladed prop and engine at 10,000 revs then there'd be a 20,000 cycle pulsing between zero precession and full precession. I'm not certain but I suspect a 3 bladed prop wouldn't do this because the centres of mass from each blade are equally distributed around the centre so acting more like a solid flywheel.

That's probably a lot of the noise that two-blade props make in corners, audible on electric airplanes.  Three-bladers are quieter, and folks are reporting better bearing life with three-bladers. 
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Offline Al Rabe

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2015, 08:08:23 AM »
Brian,

You missed the point. It has nothing to do with the number or shape of the blades.  Any rotating object will express characteristics of a gyroscope and will precess if its attitude is changed.  Weight and rotation (RPM) is all that matters.  You made a gyroscope.  When you changed its attitude, it precessed.  The props on our airplanes do too.  Anything rotated will have gyroscopic characteristics and will precess. You saw it.  You felt it,  Why overthink it?  

Any rotating object will precess when its attitude is changed.The wheels of a car have gyroscopic characteristics when the car moves.  This is the reason that we used to use mounting nuts which tightened in opposite directions when mounting wheels on opposite sides of a car.  Wheels on opposite sides of a car rotate gyroscopically in opposite directions and their precessional effects tends to tighten the nuts on one side of the car and loosen them on the other side.  Still happens, even though we mostly ignore that old wheel mounting procedure now. Its easier to knock the hell out of our mounting nuts with an impact wrench than to explain why opposite rotation is better. Its mass and rotation.  Always has been, always will be.

The planet Earth rotates with gyroscopic effects.  When cold dense air from the Arctic push Southward toward warmer, less dense air, gyroscopic precession deflects their flow in a left turn toward the East which is why we have prevailing Western winds blowing toward the East and the Eastward movement of weather patterns in the Northern hemisphere.

Did I need to write 40,000 words to explain how gyroscopic precession affects our control line stunt ships?  Well, no but the subject keeps coming up and it appears that no amount of helpful explanations on the subject of less tension in outside maneuvers will ever be enough to convince flyers who don't want to understand. Everything we need to know about gyroscopic precession was covered in 37 words in the fourth paragraph of this post. "In short, elevators pitch our stunt ships and create gyroscopic yaw.  If the elevators are connected to the rudder by a simple pushrod, gyroscopic yaw can then be balanced by deflecting the rudder whenever the elevators move." I figured out the physical reasons for lost tension on outsides as a helicopter flight instructor forty eight years ago.  

It works well enough for my airplanes and the current World Champion who also uses a"Rabe Rudder".

Al
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 08:53:22 AM by Al Rabe »

Offline frank williams

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2015, 08:21:31 AM »
Brian
A good experiment.  Make a 27" 3 blade model.  What you should feel is a constant precession moment.  A four blader, the same constant.  Two blader is special with an oscillating moment.  One might conclude that a two blader isn't so good for a profile plane.

Al
Love your DVD's .... I'm getting ready to start on a big Bearcat, probably with a Saito72.

Offline Al Rabe

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2015, 09:28:03 AM »
Frank,

Send me your address and I'll send a new "Al's Models 4" DVD.

Al

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2015, 10:50:58 AM »
Isn't "precession" the pitch rotation?  Stunt people use it to describe the yaw moment caused by the pitch rotation.  I think most sources mention the rotation that happens when one applies a torque and call that precession.  I'm sufficiently confused that I hesitate to use the word.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2015, 11:47:40 AM »
Weight and rotation (RPM) is all that matters.

Moment of inertia and rotation.  The moment of inertia of a two-blade prop about the pitch axis does vary a lot between up-and-down and sideways.  I presume that's what Brian felt (and what I felt this morning when I repeated his experiment until the 27" piece of wood hit me in the crotch and broke--I'm not making this up.), what we hear with electric airplanes, and what causes bearing wear on wimpy electric motors.  It would appear as a wiggle in pitch rate.  As Al suggests, the moment of inertia about the crankshaft axis is what matters for yaw moment. 

Another story: a guy at Cal Poly SLO built a human-powered helicopter with two two-blade contrarotating (counterrotating?) rotors.  When the rotors lined up, the helicopter flopped over on its side, having only a tiny moment of inertia about the direction of the rotors.
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Offline frank williams

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2015, 01:11:08 PM »
Isn't "precession" the pitch rotation?  Stunt people use it to describe the yaw moment caused by the pitch rotation.  I think most sources mention the rotation that happens when one applies a torque and call that precession.  I'm sufficiently confused that I hesitate to use the word.
It is one of those words that can be troublesome.  Precession .. a change in the orientation of the rotational axis of a rotating body.  Could be pitch or yaw depending how you look at it.  The precessional moment about the crankshaft would be pitch when considering the yaw rotational rate of turning the airplane to the left as we go round the circle.  Yaw when we consider a pitch rate manuever.

The precessional moment from a two bladed prop is a sin function that is biased off zero.  The moment is varying, but the average has a non zero value.  For a three, four, or more blade prop the precessional moment is a constant value proportional to the rotation rate of the shaft and the rate of change of the angular momentum vector.  Pete Soule opened my eyes to the two blader dynamics some years back.

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2015, 01:28:37 PM »
More precisely, isn't "precession" a rotation, rather than a moment?
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Offline frank williams

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2015, 01:49:04 PM »
yes ..... but what do you call the force / moment that produces it ?

Offline Al Rabe

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2015, 03:32:44 PM »
Frank,

Glad to see you wanting to build a big Bearcat.  I know that you've built Bearcats before but I recommend the BBFB Bearcat highly as being as good for competition as my best Mustangs.  I also wanted to build a  Bearcat fuselage to see just how much molding could be avoided like I did on the Sea Fury.  I think it's all possible except for the lower aft fuselage where I still think simple forms and molded skins would be necessary.  In fact, I thought that moldless fuselage might demonstrate that it's probably possible to build the fuselage quickly to a "ready to install" state of construction and  make a highly detailed tutorial of the process. This would have made an interesting inclusion in the "Al's Models 4 DVD, Book 3.  I never got around to it but would still like to.  The airplane has tons of promise but it's handicapped by the necessity for molding.  It should be possible to prove that it could be done with minimal molding of the aft fuselage.   I have a new BBFB Bearcat with only 2 flights on it and don't need another but think this project would be a fun build for a very old modeler. I built this fuselage of this Bearcat in just one day  excepting the tail surfaces which were already finished.  Laser cut fuselage parts and jigs really rush the construction.  It doesn't show but the engine mounting and tank compartment are also complete in the same day.

Al
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 09:04:59 AM by Al Rabe »

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2015, 03:43:10 PM »
Speaking of Bearcats and old modelers, you gotta get Keith Trostle to replace his wonderful Bearcat, which was recently reduced to smithereens, so I hear.
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Offline Al Rabe

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2015, 07:31:30 PM »
Frank,

Did he crash it or did all the termites die of old age? Just kidding Keith.  I certainly know what it feels like to lose a very good airplane.  I lost a new Snaggletooth Cavalier on it's first trip to the field, 6th flight.  I was beginning to trim and ease into breaking-in a new engine.  It quit in a bad spot where the airplane couldn't be recovered.

Al
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 09:12:18 AM by Al Rabe »

Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2015, 09:18:21 PM »
Moment of inertia and rotation.  The moment of inertia of a two-blade prop about the pitch axis does vary a lot between up-and-down and sideways.  I presume that's what Brian felt....
That's the reason I carried out my crude but quite effective experiment and I also balanced the wood to avoid extraneous vibrations even though it was only turning at ~300rpm. However I've just run across an article by Joe Supercool at http://www.supercoolprops.com/articles/gyrovibes.php where he deals mathematically with this kind of thing with props.

Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2015, 10:07:54 PM »
Speaking of Bearcats and old modelers, you gotta get Keith Trostle to replace his wonderful Bearcat, which was recently reduced to smithereens, so I hear.
==================================================

Oh, noooo....let's hope not.  I've been out of town.  Hadn't heart about this; hoping it isn't true!!!
FORMER member, "Academy of Multi-rotors & ARFs".

Offline Al Rabe

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2015, 01:26:14 PM »
Brian,

OK. I read the whole Joe Supercool article although I didn't understand the math.  In fact, I copied the first three paragraphs here where I can comment directly.  

In paragraph (2) which begins "In F2B" which seems most on point of our discussion of gyroscopic precession in control line stunt ships, he describes gyroscopic precession in outside loops (bunts) with reverse rotating props as holding out better due to Gyroscopic yaw outward on down elevator..  The reverse of this effect is also true in that gyroscopic precession in outside loops with normal propeller will lose tension and yaw inward on down elevator.

(Paragraph 1) "My attention has been drawn in recent times to certain odd and apparently inexplicable occurences in the operation of control-line model aircraft; particularly, but not only, in high- performance racing models."

(Paragraph 2) "In F2B, Brian Eather observed to me that electric F2B ships have been found to hold out better on the hourglass bunts if the prop is running in reverse rotation! The reason?. Gyroscopic yaw outward on down elevator. So much for slow ships."

(Paragraph 3) "Now onto F2C and F2A. The word is that very stiff carbon F2C models are slower than their balsa counterparts. So much for hi-tech materials. Not only that, but the same applies to F2A speed models. Thumbing thru Grant Lucas' collection  of the Speed Times, I came across an article by Paramon, dated in the late 1980's, wherein he described the materials used in his model construction. The material was some sort of plastic that read like a vibration damper. Of course, wood is famed for that  very property."

The rest of his article, text and math, deals with gyroscopic precessional effects on vibration and distortion of propellers blades on F2C and F2A control line speed models. High pitch rates will result in greater gyroscopic yaw and vibration.  This precession will cause greater changes in both inside and outside line tension and noise.  I don't see Joe Supercool's article as being of much interest to control line stunt ships.

Of more interest in the subject of gyroscopic precession is the trimming capabilities inherent in Rabe Rudders.  This unsuspected capability was covered extensively in two major Rabe Rudder articles, one of which is reprinted on page 456, Book 2, of "Al's Models 4" disk. It's possible to overcorrect the inward yaw and loss of line tension on outsides without having much effect on the already outward yawing on inside maneuvers,  This can be accomplished by varying the length and location of the rudder and elevators horns. In other words, we can make the rudder go pretty much anywhere we want it to go on both up and down elevator deflections.  This is such a practical and beneficial trimming device for competition stunt ships that I can't understand why it has failed to become universally adopted.  It offers a capability far beyond the simple substitution of reverse rotation to improve outside maneuvers. In fact with an asymmetric linkage to a standard Rabe Rudder, there is no aerodynamic advantage to reverse rotation.

I have no doubt that World Champion Igor Burger not only used a Rabe Rudder according to his Max Bee article but certainly explored its overcorrecting trimming capabilities. He also used tractor propellers as Rabe Rudder Linkage is awkward for reverse rotation installations.  He also used incidence on his horizontal stabilizer which would offset a full time nose up pitching moment from the gyroscopic precessional effects from using tractor props and counterclockwise control line flight. Our airplanes using tractor props and counterclockwise flight will experience nose up pitching moment (a permanent climb tendency) as long as the engine runs. Airplanes using reverse rotation  will experience nose down pitching moment (permanent diving tendency). I've been advocating the use of incidence since the "Evolution of a Thoroughbred" article in thirty seven years ago 1978.  On the whole, I'd have to say that control line stunt seems to have always lagged well behind technological capability.  Rejecting a trimming device like the Rabe Rudder because it was tried without trimming and didn't work is much the same as installing a random prop without regard to size or pitch.

Igor's Max Bee was a very technologically sophisticated airplane (and demonstratively competitive).  I appreciate his mentioning use of the Rabe Rudder. 

Al
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 02:36:58 PM by Al Rabe »

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2015, 07:40:16 AM »
yes ..... but what do you call the force / moment that produces it ?

we here call the first precession (angular speed caused by a mechanical moment) and the other - gyroscopic moment (moment caused by angular speed)

... means on our models, we try to counterbalance the gyroscopic moment to prevent precession :- ))))

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2015, 08:04:52 AM »
I have no doubt that World Champion Igor Burger not only used a Rabe Rudder according to his Max Bee article but certainly explored its overcorrecting trimming capabilities. He also used tractor propellers as Rabe Rudder Linkage is awkward for reverse rotation installations.  He also used incidence on his horizontal stabilizer which would offset a full time nose up pitching moment from the gyroscopic precessional effects from using tractor props and counterclockwise control line flight.

Yes, he did ... all works wel :- )))

beside one small detail, while the tail incidence has different effect on different air speed (in windy conditions up and down the wind) we combine also motor down thrust which can improve that problem ... and no I did not invent it, it is 50 years old trick - thrust line over the wing drag center :- )))) ... that is why I mean that classic airplane simply need tractor prop, not pusher ... Long evolution simply gave that, and several guys who tested pushers reffered that they did not get better results after all. It is true that pusher gives better tension on start (because of swirl) and in hourglass, but line tension is not primary thing for perfect trim, model simply must have tension, if not trimming is lost game from the beginning but proper tracking is the point

and BTW, thanks for nice words :- ))

Offline Al Rabe

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2015, 09:22:01 AM »
Well, this topic has precessed enough.  Maybe, with a half century of competitive modeling experience and having owned 6 airplanes and flown more than 26,000 hours we might find something else to talk about.  I rebuilt and painted both of these airplanes and had my AMA N1117 number adopted from my old Bellanca registration.

Al
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 08:58:12 AM by Al Rabe »

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2015, 10:29:01 AM »
[quote author=Al Rabe link

...rest of his article, text and math, deals with gyroscopic precessional effects on vibration and distortion of propellers blades on F2C and F2A control line speed models. High pitch rates will result in greater gyroscopic yaw and vibration.  This precession will cause greater changes in both inside and outside line tension and noise.  I don't see Joe Supercool's article as being of much interest to control line stunt ships.
[/quote]

Hi Al,

I kind of disagree. Also we should take his work seriously, something good might happen.
Stuart makes some of the most efficient props for racing classes. I think stunt planes would also benefit from more efficient propellers, especially when modern motors and engines are getting better In controlling the speed. Thanks to people like Igor.
-A more efficient propeller can be smaller than an inefficient prop, which means less trim issues related to torque and the gyroscopic stuff.
-A more efficient prop is also quieter. Noise issues should be taken more seriously.

Lauri



Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2015, 11:51:35 AM »

Also we should take his work seriously, something good might happen.
Stuart makes some of the most efficient props for racing classes. I think stunt planes would also benefit from more efficient propellers, especially when modern motors and engines are getting better In controlling the speed. Thanks to people like Igor.
-A more efficient propeller can be smaller than an inefficient prop, which means less trim issues related to torque and the gyroscopic stuff.
-A more efficient prop is also quieter. Noise issues should be taken more seriously.

I would say more efficient propeller can be also LARGER than an inefficient prop : -))))))))))

Last year I designed (designed, not copied, tested, trimmed - simply computer simulated, designed - on amatheur level, but better then 100 molds in basket  >:D ) new prop for electric. I went away from older concept of props with self regulation as we know them from IC engines. If you will finally convert to electric  ( LL~ ) you will hear that "inefficient noise" of well working classic prop. If motor regulates really well, you will hear in bottoms especially on round figures, characteristic noise which means that prop developed some separtion buble on lower side of prop which helps to limit its RPM. That is what is effectively used especially on piped hi-rew engines with undercambered props. I wrote about it many many years ago, I think it will be still somewhere on SSW. Since we have very good regulation, we not need waste power this way.

So I did new prop with narrow blade but with airfoil which does NOT make such bubble on lower or upper side in whole range of flying speeds (whole range of possible slippage). It is also lighter (due to technology) ... the result is new 12" prop wich has aproximately the same moment inertia as older full carbon 11" prop (so I can switch them without further trimming) and need also aproximately same energy to make the pattern on the same model at the same speed (so I not need larger battery) but with better speed stability (as funcion of thrust to speed differnce) thanks to its longer blades. 

I tested that prop in Poland during calm days, but still - some people like old fashoion props, and simply like to hear that "fffffffffff" on bottoms when model visibly slows ... however it costs heavier motor and larger battery :-P

I have identical prop (weight, pitch, speed) with old fashion airfoil which does that "fffffff" and difference in energy is 2300 vs 2000 mAh on 6s battery.

... sorry for OT  H^^

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2015, 12:27:56 PM »
Igor,

With or without the fffffffffff, is there a big difference in how the model wants to accelerate? Does it change the amount of compensation from your accelerometer thing? Sorry I don't know the correct terms :)
I'm asking because I'm planning the next step in the engine project. The engine itself is just fine (so fine that Richie wants one :) but I have choked it down to turn only a 13,25" prop to avoid some trim issues. It has potential for much bigger props and I'd like to go slightly up in dia but I cannot make it any lighter with our current wood/cnc method.
I did some experiments with blade tip shapes, but with more aerodynamic tips, the thing started to accelerate more.
But hey, I'm allmost 100% electric this year!:

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2015, 12:37:06 PM »
So I did new prop with narrow blade but with airfoil which does NOT make such bubble on lower or upper side in whole range of flying speeds (whole range of possible slippage). It is also lighter (due to technology) ...

11.7 grams, and the prettiest prop I've seen.

We can install a speaker and generate the "fffffffffff" electronically as a function of normal acceleration.  
The Jive Combat Team
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2015, 01:25:45 PM »
11.7 grams, and the prettiest prop I've seen.

We can install a speaker and generate the "fffffffffff" electronically as a function of normal acceleration.  

Anyone got a pic of the prop.

I would have my speaker whisper "40,  40,  40,  40,  40,  40” as it goes around the circle.  The subliminal message idea.....  

Then I would find Derek's plane and Steve Fitton's plane and Eric Viglione's plane and Steve Moon's plane and have them all whisper "Doug Moon is the best flier ever! Doug Moon is the best flier ever!"   ;D ;D ;D ;D

Oh the fun we could have with this one....  
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Offline Al Rabe

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2015, 04:49:46 PM »
Well, this started out with a bit of information about gyroscopic precession as an introduction to the major article in the new Book 3 addition to Al's Models 4 sale DVDs.  For all of the posts here about gyroscopic precession and props we seem to miss a larger point.  Namely, there is a larger, more informative article about this subject on Book 3 than on this post and another 30,000 words of stunt building flying, finishing and competition.

Typically, when a purchaser of my DVD sends their address, I send the DVD right away, not awaiting payment.  Also, I have no objection the purchasers examining the content before sending the purchase price.  If desired the DVD can be returned without obligation, in the original packaging, for less than $2.50.  That's not much of an investment to look over 187,000 words 1600 pages and photos, and 1/2 hour of video.

My e-mail is :  alsf8f@yahoo.com

Al
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 06:26:45 PM by Al Rabe »

Offline john ohnimus

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2015, 08:50:15 AM »
Al,

 New to this forum. I would like to share a little safer way to demonstrate preccession to folks. A bicycle wheel (with or without a tire) can be used as an excellent example. Used to do this as a kid, spin the wheel and support it by one axle with your free hand, the wheel will keep itself upright as long as the speed is sufficient, all the while it will rotate clockwise perpindicular to the axle opposite of the direction of rotation. Now if the person holding the axle attempts to move the axle rapidly in one direction or the other, the precession will act on the wheel 45 degrees from the force exerted on the axle. It is a great expirament for both young and old alike, just be sure to keep your fingers out of the spokes!! I hope this helps out Al. BTW long time fan of airplanes and building methods.

TonyO
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Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2015, 01:31:17 PM »
Anyone got a pic of the prop.

yes, if you look here:

http://www.maxbee.net/props/props.htm

and scroll down to 12 x 5 N

you will see that prop

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2015, 01:52:02 PM »
Igor,

With or without the fffffffffff, is there a big difference in how the model wants to accelerate? Does it change the amount of compensation from your accelerometer thing? Sorry I don't know the correct terms :)
I'm asking because I'm planning the next step in the engine project. The engine itself is just fine (so fine that Richie wants one :) but I have choked it down to turn only a 13,25" prop to avoid some trim issues. It has potential for much bigger props and I'd like to go slightly up in dia but I cannot make it any lighter with our current wood/cnc method.
I did some experiments with blade tip shapes, but with more aerodynamic tips, the thing started to accelerate more.
But hey, I'm allmost 100% electric this year!:

No, the acceleration is aproximately the same, but that "pffffff" prop can more limit overruning when you turn model down, for example in triangels, when you fly up, regulator will add power to keep rpm, both props will load motor aproximately same and also thrust will be the same ... then you do the corner, it will even more load motor as corner brakes little and ESC will evem more add, but that is exactly what you do not want after the corner when model goes already down with unloaded prop, if ESC reacts slowly, prop will be running too fast and it will accelerate downhill, that "pffff prop" will still load motor (because of airfoil drag) while that "non pfff" will unload and that can lead to accelerating downhill. So it all means, that if your ESC reacts slowly or even governor works not-so-perfect, it is better to use that pfffff prop with underchambered airfoil but you will pay it by higher consumption and thus larger battery (or shorter life time)

And it is not about active regulation, my timer can be set to brake more then accelerate or accelerate more then brake, so you can compensate behavior of props, but if ESC reacts slowly, regulation front of ESC does not help. So the only solution is such "pffff" prop :- )))

BTW nice model, how is it possible that you do not use my timers? :-P ... our F1E guys use them ... aha you do not have Jetibox, ok you are excused :-P

... and sorry for OT

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2015, 04:17:50 PM »
Ah, it makes sense. Thanks for explanation.
Perhaps a stupid question again, but if you use datalogger, have you noticed difference in power consumption between inside- and outside maneuvres? Doesn't the gyroscopics work the other way too, depending on turn direction the flywheel (prop) either wants to accelerate or decelerate.? I'm asking because it might explain some anomalies in the way some IC engines behave. I just don't have a slightest idea of the magnitude of this phenomen.

Ot; I'd be happy to try your timers if they can operate 3+hook servo's, RDT and user interface is good. Now I must use Palm's for programming, that sucks. L

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2015, 11:04:15 PM »
We found many years ago that Gs make engine work asymetricaly, that was why I use 45 degrees mounted engine on my first Maxes. It solved problem completaly, so I do not think it was problem with precessiion, or at least it was so small effect that I did not notice.

But yes data logger gave me some differences, but later I found it was very sensitive to flap/elevator setting, so again not precession.

Try Rabe rudder, you can set it also too strong, so you can see if your anomalities could be reversed, if yes, you can know it was precession :- )) ... and may be you will sooner or later find that also adjustable rudder is necessary trimming tool :- )))  ... even on Sharks :-P

And speaking of timers ... 1 timer = 1 function, you can have them 5 if you want, they are smaller then RC connector, but I think it does not belong here, you can download description from (nr 3 from top):

http://www.maxbee.net/downloads/downloads.htm

Offline Darkstar1

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2015, 11:07:56 AM »
Igor
I assume you're talking about tractor props. Can the same be said for using a pusher prop?
Later,
Evolve or get left behind!

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2015, 12:10:29 PM »
Igor
I assume you're talking about tractor props. Can the same be said for using a pusher prop?

I do not have experience with pusher on IC engine, but I expect that it will be different. I THINK that rich run in positives with inverted motor is due to Gs which push fuel and oil to head in positives. While outboard mounted engine (with side exhaust) with tractor prop becomes lean in positives. I think it will be opposite, ad that will lead to 45 degrees mounted engine left/down insted of righ down. Just my guess.

That is why we used ~20 years ago side munted rear intake rear exhaust muffled MVVS engines. They where best running motors I ever had. Unfortunately heavy and with relatively low mechanical qualiy. So later we went to Jetts and PAs.

 

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2015, 02:25:44 PM »
This is leaning towards OT, Please forgive me. My engines have 6 or 4 ports, like Schnuerle but without boost port. Rear exhaust & intake so the engine is fully symmetrical and can be run to both directions. Ports and channels are integrated into one-piece AAC cylinder, that allows all kinds of funny experiments with blocking the ports. This is what I have found out:
-When mounted horizontally (cylinder pointing out), there was a tendency to slow down in outside maneuvres when using normal running direction (anti-clockwise when seen from front of model).
-With reversed running direction the asymmetry reverses, engine tends to speed up in outside maneuvres.
-Direction of venturi, fuel post(s) or remote needle valve location had no effect whatsoever.

First suspect was the bottom end of the engine, perhaps the centrifugal effect of crankshaft causes a differend feed rate to channels on diferend sides of engine? Nope. When all ports on either side of cylinder were blocked, the same behaviour was still there (Of course lots of power was lost due to scavenging becoming inefficient, but the model was still enough flyable for finding that out). Besides, this particular engine has a piston scavenging, all fuel has to pass through piston ports. That eliminates all pressure- and flow asymmetries quite effectively.

The problem is solved now but it still is a small mystery. It seems that the reason is fuel accumulation somewhere in bottom end, combined with inefficient burning in combustion chamber. One important detail was that there was no asymmetry if I made either inside- or outside loops from level- or inverted flight. The speeding up or slowing only came in intersections of figure 8's. I think that indicates of fuel accumulation.
Final cure for symmetry issue was optimizing the combustion chamber shape. Most crucial detail is a good squish band (50%) with minimum squish clearance (0,20..0,25mm).

Minimizing crankcase bottom end volume made the asymmetry so small that I could live with it, it was only annoying in really strong wind. I chose to use pusher props because it would be better to have the slight acceleration in outside turns. Shark is so close to all-in-line layout that using a pusher doesn't hurt the harmony much. Just take-off is a little annoying. When I change between pusher and tractor props, just the handle neutral has to be adjusted a little.

I think that world would be a better place if it were more widely understood that adjusting compression ratio just by adding/removing shims is not the right way. The right way is to find optimal squish clearance first, and then the optimal head volume.

Lauri


Offline Paul Van Dort

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2022, 08:38:41 AM »

I think that world would be a better place if it were more widely understood that adjusting compression ratio just by adding/removing shims is not the right way. The right way is to find optimal squish clearance first, and then the optimal head volume.

Lauri

Sorry for the late reply: What is the best way to define the optimal squish clearance?

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Gyroscopic precession and Al's Models 4 DVD
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2022, 10:39:44 AM »
Sorry for the late reply: What is the best way to define the optimal squish clearance?

It depends, but for us, if you really want to optimise, I don't think there is other way than to do s**tloads of similar-geometry heads with same CR and different clearances.
Personally, with my toroid/semi-active squish shape, I have found 0,5..0,6mm to be a safe minimum. More than that, stability is still good but the 4-2-4 change gets a little blurred and peak power gets a little narrower and lower. Less than that and there is a hysteresis, probably because of temperature/load-critical flame propagation.
In this type of engines squish clearance is typically 0,6..1mm.
I have also tried a proper squish head, a'la racing engines, and found out (at least in my use) that it has to be very close to safe mechanical minimum which is about 0,2mm with my materials & rpm. L


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